Not all settlers and Palestinians want each other to disappear

[pelsar]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1144264.html

In a Palestinian village somewhere between Hebron and Bethlehem, it was so cold and misty one day last month that you could barely see more than a meter away. It was as if the fog served as camouflage, a hiding place behind which a few dozen settlers and Palestinians were concealed. They had crowded together in the hall of a local school, ostensibly to talk about joint prayers for rain - which came even without the prayers - but in essence to talk about themselves. This time, for a change, within earshot of the other side.

It is no accident that a majority of the participants are young people, the second generation that was born, or at the very least grew up, in settlements. It is a generation that sees the state running away from it - with the separation fence, disengagement, Amona and the construction freeze - and realizes that the Palestinian neighbors are not going anywhere.

"Why am I drawn there?" asks Amrussi. She does not belong to the group, but ever since describing in her book "Tris" ("Shutter" in English) a meeting between two women, a settler and a Palestinian, has fantasized about such get-togethers. "I am looking for roots. I know with utter certainty that I am in my homeland, but the red roofs of the settlements are not enough to transmit the feeling that we are rooted here. The Palestinians are not just passing through. When I go into their homes it invokes in me a desire to connect. If only I could use them to put down roots. Not in the sense of exploitation. In the sense of something that would sprout, bringing new growth."

Members of the group, and the dozens of settlers who have taken part in its meetings, do not subscribe to any one political orientation.

this means trouble...trouble for all of those who travel in stereotypes...the settlers are all bad, its the land, the Palestinians are victims and cant do anything to effect change.

here we see the primary participants, those on the "front lines" destroying the favorite lines and claims of so many who "live off this conflict" who project their own views on the participants......

these people have accepted each other as neighbors and want to deepen that relationship...and that is far more important than any border, any land ownership and any history or pseudo history. These are the people to be supporting, more than anyone else, these settlers and these Palestinians. They are the primary actors that can bring an end to the conflict.....

[ixion]

1. it's the extremists on both sides who keep them at war

just like the extremists in our government keep us at war.

[azurnoir]

2. Good to hear and a step

towards what IMO should eventually happen

[LeftishBrit]

3. A positive step; thanks for posting.

[Violet_Crumble]

4. They're only a small group...

Whether they remain in a Palestinian state or not will be up to the future government, not them.

[pelsar]

7. on the contrary

the settlers were once a few, hamas was once a few.......they can have a real affect as part of the grass roots effort that comes from people actually living next to each other. They can affect their governments and they might, the least is that they should affect those that support civil rights as a primary issue with the border being a secondary issue.

The are not concerned with the border.....just living comfortably with each other as neighbors, and these people are the ones to listen to

[Violet_Crumble]

9. The same can be said for groups like Combatants for Peace...

They're small, and I'd love nothing more than for them and the people in the OP to grow instead of ones like the extremist settlers and Hamas, but groups that are worthwhile generally seem to be marginal. Maybe I'm just being overly pessimistic right now....

[pelsar]

11. you gotta believe...

combatants for peace...also small but part of the wider grass roots efforts.......these are the participants, the ones that actually know what is going on and know what some of the real solutions are....

first and foremost...to get along

[Violet_Crumble]

13. I talked to an Israeli who worked on the grassroots level with Palestinians...

Not here at DU, but at another forum, and he used to meet up with members of the PLO on a regular basis and I was really disheartened when he started sharing his experiences with people at the forum he was at, and they lambasted him and were too busy calling him a Zionist etc to listen to what he was trying to tell them. I'm pretty sure there'd be heaps more people like him, both Israeli and Palestinian...

[ConsAreLiars]

5. Hope for a better tomorrow always depends on the next generation.

This case in which a child of religiously insane supremacist expansionists displays a sense of common decency and community with the Palestinians whose land the previous generation stole is very encouraging. Maybe more kids will look on their parents' actions in murdering nearby Palestinians and and destroying their olive groves with the horror and revulsion such actions merit. And have the humanity to be able to understand that if such were done to them, it would be wrong, so doing it to others is wrong. Like, for example, what was done/is being done to Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.

Do unto others and all that. Or 1000 eyes for one. Those are the two options. When Israelis in general face up to the evil of their government's treatment of the Palestinians, then there will be hope for an end to the conflict.

[pelsar]

6. im curious why your tolerated here by the others....

your obviously fanatical, intolerant and in fact have no or little knowledge of the settlers, the conflict, the history or of the Palestinians...

so for the posters here..can i get an explanation?...or is this a case that *this fanatic is on my side, therefore i will tolerate them*...is that it?

any responses

[Violet_Crumble]

8. For the same reason you tolerated Shira...

If you explain to us all why you tolerated Shira, then you have yr answer...

[pelsar]

10. i didnt see the hate...

Whereas with Shira she would bring forth arguments, bring in links to show her side, attempt to prove what she believed, stated at many times she does not hate the arabs etc....views i sometimes i agreed with, sometimes not....but she tried to back up her view with links.....

i see with cons a lack of tolerance up to the level where my own views based on actual experience has been declared to be nothing more than a victim of propaganda. Nor dol i see con actually puting for any real arguments...just general statements,-claiming others that disagree...having racist/supremicst view.
con calls everyone that disagrees with her a RW


can that be excused?

[Violet_Crumble]

12. You just didn't see it coz it wasn't aimed at you...

It was there. The intolerance, lack of interest in actual facts, insults, abuse, reliance on propaganda, and a bigotty against Arabs/Muslims that came across clearly in more than a few threads (she was the only poster in this forum who tried to justify vigilante patrols trying to stop Jewish girls from dating Arab boys). And let's not forget the way she tried to compare Palestinian society to Nazis. That's a very clear lack of tolerance there...

So don't ask me to say anything about Con, given that...

[pelsar]

14. has con ever put forth an argument?

anything more than blanket statements?

i can tolerate different views without a problem, that is the essence of a viable democracy, tolerance for views one disagrees with.... but i cant recall con every engaging in an actual discussion.....other than general accusations....

can you?

[Violet_Crumble]

16. No more or less than Shira, I guess...

But unlike Shira, Cons never called me a bigot or lied about what I said, so I may be a bit biased and think that generally Con's a good person with the written communication skills of a Mac truck where things have the potential to be smoothed out over time....

Should we agree that we're going to not agree on the sheer annoyingness of particular posters and agree that it's probably not that good an idea to carry out critiques of them in public? I'm sure Shira's lurking away, and Con's right here in the forum, so I can imagine both of them wouldn't be impressed at all...

[pelsar]

20. Cons in a league of her own.....

but there is hope...she answered me....well see how it goes...

[Violet_Crumble]

39. Yeah, let's hope they can be more like Shira, hey?

That should be the goal everyone aspires to. ;)

[Douglas Carpenter]

15. reminds me of some people who didn't see anything bigoted or racist about a certain hate-site

we all know. Do they really believe that there is nothing hateful, racist or bigoted about that site? Maybe they just have one very huge blind spot.

A certain poster who is no longer here, used to post the most obviously bigoted and hateful broad-brush attacks against, Muslims, Palestinian and Arab people - all the time. But people claimed in all seriousness that they didn't think there was anything bigoted or racist about their comments. Did they really believe that? Again maybe they just don't get it. I don't know. It reminds me of right-wing Republicans in America who will with an absolutely straight face claim that the American media is utterly left-wing. Do they believe it? Maybe their emotions are so deeply held that they really do.

[pelsar]

18. of course its emotional...

and in i dont mind cons views so much as her closed mind. She can believe im a blood thirsty supremacist zionist pig...BUT if she engages me just a bit, perhaps, and here i get religious, i can make a slight dent in her views that not all zionists pigs are also blood thirsty, see Palestinians as subhuman type of guy....

thats my problem with Con..and why i see Con as a fanatic...and i have had many a discussion with the fanatics and i usually fail to even make the slightest dent, but i still believe

[ConsAreLiars]

23. "She can believe im a blood thirsty supremacist zionist pig"

Just for the record, I don't.

I have imagined you (that's the best we can do in such interactions) as an honest and good-hearted individual. My zen-stick hits were intended as prods toward accepting your better human nature and thus regarding one Palestinian being killed-starved-imprisoned in the same way as you regard one Israeli. Not there yet? Don't quit. think about it, how would you feel and react and all that.

[pelsar]

24. you were pretty clear about it....

i am a member of the IDF (reserves) and have served in gaza and the westbank..and from what i've read of your posts, your pretty clear that in your opinion, members of that group consider the Palestinians as sub humans, etc.

as far a how i see Palestinians, israelis etc i would suggest that you might ask rather than make gross assumptions and what will probably be far more difficult for you...to even answer a few question on my part

[ConsAreLiars]

25. Re-read what I said in the post you replied to.

It was condemning the brutal mass murders and destruction done by the IDF, I do that same thing wrt the US Military's slaughters all across this pathetic planet, but I never blame or condemn the individuals who get caught up or pushed into that murder machinery. Those who put them there, yes. The victims on either side, absolutely not. My condolences for whatever unjust hardships you may have encountered. Consider thinking a bit about5r the hardships your masters created.

[pelsar]

26. perfect example....

the hardships your masters created.

i have no idea why you assume i'm some kind of peon that cannot think for himself and that i have masters and to clarify...I'm a volunteer in the IDF, i can quit anytime i want.

perhaps you might want to enlighten me as to why you seem to assume that people who dont believe like you are being manipulated (and you are not)


i remember your first accusation, on a previous post, that i was a victim of media propaganda....i found that rather amusing given that im actually a participant, with real experience and your knowledge is 100% media based....

[ConsAreLiars]

17. Probably for better reasons than you are.

Despite your inability to spell, reason, capitalize, or display compassion for others not like you, you get to post. At least you have to admit I do better on no less than 3 of 4. I'd claim 4 and be puzzled about which you would dispute,

It is a discussion forum, where views and information you would want suppressed are not. Go find another if you don't like this one. After all, this forum is for those who support the Democratic Party and progressive causes, and I have seen nothing by you that suggests you qualify.

(edit a lot)

[pelsar]

19. true on three counts

true i spell poorly.....i dont always capitalize....and i dont always write clearly......

so do those aspects disqualify me from putting forth an opinion or disqualify my opinion and experiences. Is this what your trying to say?.....Otherwise i m not really sure why your wrote them.

and to clarify im not a progressive but am a liberal/ independent

[ConsAreLiars]

21. It was just a reply to your dumb insults and call for me being prohibited from posting

because my opinions are rather different from yours. I didn't call for banning you, although your kill-torture-deprive-them-all viewpoint will probably result in that. But you want the authorities to suppress and exterminate views that you don't like. In particular those that ask you to look in a mirror and examine what you see.

(edit because it's always something)

[pelsar]

22. i think you should post..you misunderstood

i was curious why others here didnt post back to you that your obviously not just intolerant but have little knowledge of the participants in the conflict, and what appears to me is that your not really interested in learning more from others who actually know more etc.

i am against banning.....no matter who it is, no matter whether i agree or disagree-its a integral part of me being a liberal

you seem to make a lot assumptions and generalizations about people and posters you dont know, but this is just an impression

[azurnoir]

27. well Pelsar why am I tolerated?

seeing as how according to a recent post I am anti-white anti semetic anti colonialist seems like there was more but I don't quite remember......
ill admit to guilt one of those three, the other two left me going wtf???????

eta as for Shira I figured she was like an acolyte of yours or something;)

[pelsar]

28. i believe it was my "original sin' post your talking about*...

the one where i've concluded that for some israels mere existence is a stain upon its govt, its citizens etc....this i stand by given that so many of your posts have a "demonize israel first attitude (examples upon request), regardless of other options available

however you tend to back up your views with some justification (sometimes)...hence we are in disagreement....my impatience is restricted to those who have a massive superiority complex of their views to the point where other viewpoints are simply not tolerated...Con has that attitude and makes broad generalizations for everyone who doesnt "toe the line." i.e the fanatic

BUT since you've joined the discussion....do you agree with Cons attitude toward those who disagree? and the obvious lack of tolerance for others-at least i think its pretty obvious

*could have been a different one however.

[azurnoir]

29. I will say that Con has given me a couple of

"facepalm" moments yes, including recently and no it was not the original sin post I was talking about it was before that and BTW the first part of my reply to your original sin post was accidentally edited out while I was trying to edit something in and to make matters worse I did not realize that until you replied

Now as to my 'tude of late it is a combination of OCL Netanyahu and last but most certainly not least Avigdor Lieberman who IMO is to put it kindly is a buffoon seriously is this the "foot" you want Israel putting forward to the rest of the world?
Oh my quip about the wall some of it was do to west bank and part of it was that again IMO I wondered if was a case of the Netanyahu's keeping up with the Mubarak's or well Egypt's building one so we better do one too

Oh and lastly we were having discussion about antisemitism and the Aftonbladet story that got sidetracked by another poster
so back to the imaginary Herb Goldstein do I think some stupid story in a Swedish tabloid will put him in danger no and further more the only reason the story got any actual attention besides that weeks issue was Liebermans reaction to the which is really got attention outside of that IMO the story would have gone the way of Alien Mindcontrol running the Vatican or some such but in the the US here what can put Herb in danger and makes me shudder is every time I read something with GOLDMAN SACHS in the headline and Madoff didn't help much either, you grew up here didn't ever hear the term being "jewed" out of something? Now that shit is dangerous in no small part because it is so casually accepted

eta my either or posts about Israel in real life I have said the exact same things and been called an apologist were as you say I demonize :crazy:

[pelsar]

30. an update on the wall...

there are over 2,000 illegal immigrants that come over yearly...and it seems that Natanyahu discussed the wall with mubarak, who agreed to it, before he announced it...as per an article this Fridays Maariv newspaper.

Avigdor Liebserman's far more than a buffon..hes also a bully, probably a thief and a whole bunch more....but it doesn't mean we should ignore those anti semetic/israeli articles. Some will have legs and some wont, so no harm in stopping them all. Its really not hard, whereas i believe if a paper prints, they do have their right and there should be no laws against them, but the political/educational establishment of that country should condemn them..that may take some education, though it escapes me as to why it should.

actually being "jewed out' never really bothered me, i saw it as an individual thing and not from an establishment like a newspaper which does...as does things like egyptians movie of the protocols of zion, irans blue eyes etc.

who ever called you an israeli apologists..i apologize for them...i believe that is my title here and i "resent" you getting it.

you had a moment from con?...wow, now i feel better and wont take her/his writing seriously, obviously a very very confused person....somethings are just not worth the bandwidth.

[azurnoir]

31. Now you got me worried

it's this part

actually being "jewed out' never really bothered me, i saw it as an individual thing and not from an establishment like a newspaper which does...as does things like egyptians movie of the protocols of zion, irans blue eyes etc.

now perhaps it's the difference between being Israeli and being American but from my perspective the very fact that a term or phrase like "being jewed out of something" ie being cheated swindled or otherwise taken advantage of is so accepted even by you is exactly what makes it so very dangerous it's not just an individual, it's lots and lots of individuals myself the mental picture I get is the old Nazi tracts depicting the Jew with hooked nose, because it plays to that very stereotype, perhaps in Israel this really isn't much of problem, but for Jews living outside of Israel it presents IMO a very real danger as it builds almost subconsciously on the stereotypical mindset of the greedy Jew

IMO things like the Egyptian movie and Iran's Blue Eyes(?) which I haven't ever heard of before are so out there that they really do not effect the average person most of whom IMO dismiss those items as nonsense, but it the common and accepted stuff that presents a danger

[pelsar]

32. i view the problem as individual vs the establishment

I see the establishment, the govt, the media as having a responsibility, not by law, but by moral values, to attempt to keep that stuff from being "acceptable."

i accept a certain amount of anti semetism, anti arab, anti right wing, anti liberal etc to be the essence of a democracy. (The nazis have a right to march in skokie, and they should be condemned from everywhere and everyone). Sure being jewed out is slur, but i accept that individuals at different times in their lives may or may not hate some group..it may be morally wrong, and it should not be acceptable, but its there, thats part of our individuality.

far more scarier to me, is a "groupthink" where individuality is not allowed....and freedom of speech is the essence of freedom to me. i can be called a kike, i can punch the guy out (or not), but thats on the individual level, the guy/gal has a few "social problems".


Not in America but in the middle east, the protocols of zion, zaras blue eyes actually have a direct affect upon generations and upon intl relations and they are govt sanctioned, as was the nazi version, hence they are far more dangerous than some fuked up punks, white power freaks etc, who can only survive in their own little community. (to you they are nonsense, to the uneducated farm hand in egypt/iran/syria they are the essence of the truth).

a society should not accept nor promote such things, but it doesnt mean the individual should be curtailed his/her free speech or a chance to believe in such nonsense.....which is why an individual with racial slurs don't scare me ( a side affect of all of us having individual rights), whereas a govt/media promoting such hate, by passively accepting it, and making it acceptable is far worse in my eyes.

[Douglas Carpenter]

33. surely you must be aware of films - mostly made in the U.S. that do very much promote

group think attitudes of hostility and prejudice against, Arab people, Muslim people and frequently Palestinians. My signature line provides some information about that whole subject. Even the whole framing of Arab people and Muslim people in the mainstream American media is all too frequently more than just a little bit bigoted.

It is certainly true that there is plenty of crap in the Arab media. But on the other hand, I have also watched, Shindler's List on the on TV in the Arab world - presented primarily for an Arabic audience and subtitled into Arabic - a dubbed version has also played throughout a number of countries in the Middle East. Al Jazeerah and other cable and satellite networks have certainly presented the message that not all Jewish people are the same. These networks are no doubt pro-Palestinian, but virtually the whole Arab world now knows that their are many, many Jewish people who express real sympathy with the Palestinians. The Arab News out of Saudi and the Gulf News out of the UAE used to run a certain amount of occasional anti-Jewish nonsense that had nothing to do with the conflict with Israel. But frankly, it has been a number of years since I have seen it, at least in the semi-official newspapers of the Gulf. Uri Avnery's column appears in the Arab News and Gulf News and other Arab newspapers, calling for the two-state solution and showing people a much more favorable light of some Jewish Israelis. Even that Hummus story I posted last week, was the front page story in the Arab News presenting a story of Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel in a friendly moment, mixing together and celebrating their accomplishment. There has actually been a lot more anti-Iranian sentiment expressed in these newspapers, at least for the last few years. Practically everyone in the Arab world knows Larry King and Jon Steward and everyone knows that they are Jewish - and perhaps on a lighter note, people do see Jewish people in a much more favorable light than they once did.

There is still more than enough garbage out there. But now the story is out in the Arab world in a very big way that there are lots of Jewish people with whom the Arab world has no reason to quarrel.

[pelsar]

34. i loved the humus story....

and yes there has been an improvement, they even interviewed Peres on a an Arab TV network.....but your not going to get a "pass" just because its improving.

I'l be impressed when the arab press actually condemns the next blood libel from hamas, or there is an actual discussion on why egypt shows such an anti Semitic film during the ramadam by the arab meda. I don't expect it to go away, but i do expect the respective media and govts to explain the immorality of it or at least promote a discussion about it.

but improvement is good......and a good sign....

[Douglas Carpenter]

35. well I'll be happy when films like Delta Force are solidly condemned for the racist crap that they

are. When at least half the Arab, Muslim and Palestinian roles in movies made in America show Arab people, Muslim people and Palestinians with just simple fairness and balance - when the news media in America shows Arab people, Muslim people and Palestinians in simple fairness and balance - I will be impressed. I will be impressed when the racist and bigoted garbage put out by the likes of Fox New and a whole long list of pundits, not marginal figures but leading media figures and even prominent politicians - and a whole industry of racist and bigoted books that make it to the top of the best seller list, when that garbage and the message they deliver becomes socially unacceptable in polite society, that will be quite impressive. But, I will agree that the Israeli media is probably better at that than the American media. And I certainly do agree that nonsense like the "Protocols" needs to be going away or at least be condemened. And fortunately, it is losing some of its traction thanks in no small way to a much more balanced view of the world due to a much more responsible media which has exploded into the Middle East in the last decade.

[pelsar]

37. douglas now you've gone too far...DELTA FORCE?..

come on now theres an oscar winning movie if there ever was one... (please be aware that im being slightly sarcastic....).

i dont get much of american press and actually one of my favorite movies in israel was about "comedy" about the some israeli soldiers captured by Fatah in Lebanon.....the gist of it was that except for the single masochist, the fatah members and israelis bonded over a soccer game. I think israel has always done better with the arabs played in israeli movies than the what you see in the US, showing the complexity and human side of each.

hell we even had an arab beauty queen represent israel (shes now a journalist), and we also had a transvestite represent us in the euro song contest....

now when iran gets something like that to represent them, boy will i be impressed.

[Douglas Carpenter]

38. certainly the Israeli-made 2005, Oscar nominated "Paradise Now"

is one of the most brilliant although unsettling films I have ever seen - not only relating to the Israel/Palestine conflict, but of films relating to conflict in general and terrorism as a tactic. For those who don't know, Paradise Now was a film nominated for "Best Foreign Language Film" about two young men from Nablus recruited to carry out a suicide bombing inside Israel. The film certainly refuted the tactic of suicide bombing - but it intelligently explained it on both a personal and political level. "If we can't live as equals - at least we can die as equals." "But this is not resistance. It is revenge."

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/paradise_now/?critic=creamcrop

It is somewhat ironic that such a film such as that can be made by an Israeli studio. But, I have never heard of such a film made by an American studio where crass racist stereotypes dominate considerably more with their simplistic cliches.

[LeftishBrit]

36. Pelsar has never tried to 'suppress' anyone's views...

Disagreement and criticism are not suppression.

The problem with your arguments is that you instantly label anyone whom you disagree with as 'supremacists'. That is no different from labelling people with whom you disagree as 'antisemites' or 'anti-British/American' or 'on the side of the terrorists'. All of these are ways of attempting to shut down debate, or to reframe it into The Good Guys on Our Side vs The Bad Guys on Their Side.

ETA: this is not suggesting that you should be banned or leave the forum. Just saying why your arguments may not always have the impact that you would like.