ANALYSIS / Israel preparing public for a new war in Gaza

[bemildred]

Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin, director of Military Intelligence, announced Tuesday that Hamas launched a rocket some 60 kilometers into the sea, apparently as an experiment. Such a rocket, if fired from the northernmost point of the Gaza Strip, could strike the southern cities of the Gush Dan area - including Rishon Letzion, Holon and Bat Yam - and possibly reach as far as Tel Aviv itself.

Although Yadlin didn't specify the type of the weapon used, it appears to be a standard, foreign-made rocket smuggled into Gaza. Yadlin told the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee that Hamas has accumulated an arsenal of rockets slightly larger than the arsenal it possessed before last winter's Operation Cast Lead.

The experiment hardly caught Israeli intelligence by surprise, as it had assumed Hamas had acquired a similar type of rocket several months ago. However, the importance of Yadlin's report should not be underestimated as this is the first tangible piece of evidence that Hamas holds a weapon capable of striking Gush Dan. It would seem Hamas has used the lull in fighting with Israel to not only restore, but improve its capabilities. Still, and similar to Hezbollah, restoring the arsenal hardly testifies to restoring motivation to confront Israel militarily.

The rocket was fired in rough weather, apparently in an attempt to hide the experiment from Israeli eyes. But Israel's radar installations registered the launch, even if the exact spot where the missile hit the sea is unknown. Israel believes Hamas considers the new rocket a strategic asset, a "doomsday weapon" of sorts, and therefore avoided publicizing the experimental launch, in the hope of using the weapon as a surprise during some later confrontation.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1125701.html

[Recursion]

1. Interesting

Yadlin told the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee that Hamas has accumulated an arsenal of rockets slightly larger than the arsenal it possessed before last winter's Operation Cast Lead.

So Operation Cast Lead was pointless, like a lot of us have been saying.

[bemildred]

2. Theatrical micro-militarism

A blast from the past.

That term is taken from Emmanuel Todd's "After the Empire".
I was reminded of it by this story:

U.S. troops fight to retake three towns near Syria

http://www.sltrib.com/nationworld/ci_3088171

So, what do we have here? The mightiest military in the world fighting to "retake" three hamlets with NO conventional force whatsoever anywhere in the area, just civilians and irregulars. There is no question that they will "retake" the hamlets. But then what? The "possession" of the hamlets is worth nothing, militarily, politically, in any way, and the soldiers don't really want to be there either. So there is no strategic or tactical value in obtaining temporary "possession" of these hamlets. It is purely as drama intended to show that something can be done, a demonstration of non-impotence, of pseudo-control.

...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

3. Guess they'll have to wipe out Gaza AND Iran, huh?

I'm sure the US Congress geniuses will have a nice resolution to support the bloodbath.

[bemildred]

4. Seems like empty blather to me.

They are in quite enough trouble over Gaza as it is. Part of the current fear offensive perhaps.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

8. Sounds the same alarm, though. Anything to further dehumanize the people of Gaza.

[bemildred]

10. Indeed, always a good idea to spook the herd.nt

[ProgressiveMuslim]

14. I saw those headlines not as empty blather, but as a trial balloon. nt

[bemildred]

17. I considered that too, it seems unlikely to me, but you never know.

I think Goldstone and all that has changed the game for the moment. Unless somebody starts shooting a bunch of rockets again or something.

As I said, they sure need a distraction, and they sure seem to be predictable in how they go about that.

[bemildred]

24. Well, it is definitely being used in an attempt to change the focus of debate.,

We will have to wait and see how well that works.

[IndianaGreen]

5. The Gaza ghetto will be liquidated!

[oberliner]

6. You think everyone in Gaza will be killed?

A million and a half people?

Your use of the term "ghetto" and "liquidated" suggests a comparison to the Holocaust.

Do you really mean to draw such a comparison?

Do you believe the people of Gaza will be "liquidated" in the same sense that Jews living in the Warsaw Ghetto were liquidated?

Or is your post just a joke or a provocative remark designed to annoy people?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

7. That will depend on the consequences of OCL, don't you think?

How will the world reaction to "only" 1000 civilians being slaughtered?

Your response speaks volumes about the position of ease and power in which you find yourself.

The reality is that Israel has one and half million people locked up in a barbed-wire prison, with no work, abysmal conditions, barely enough food to subsist and no future to speak of. It recently slaughtered 100s of civilians while the world did nothing to stop the bloodbath. It dropped WHITE PHOSPHORUS ON CIVILIANS for Christ's sake.

Might you be focusing on the wrong "wrong" here? Does that the fact that Gaza is "as bad as" Warsaw actually bring you comfort?

[oberliner]

9. What a bizarre reply (to a post that wasn't even directed your way!)

My response speaks volumes about the position of ease and power in which you find yourself?

You have absolutely no clue whatsoever about any "ease" and "power" in which I may or may not find myself.

My response was to ask whether or not that poster meant to draw the comparison that they appeared to be drawing.

I have no idea what "crime" you think I am focusing on.

Your posts appear to be getting progressively unhinged as time goes on.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

11. Your position vis-a-vis the people in Gaza, Oberliner.

Only those with a roof over their head and a full belly have the privilege of worrying about historical labels.

I have sung the same song since I started posting here.

And I answered your question about Israel's ability to kill mass numbers of Gazans, as I am allowed to do... Do you think Israel is incapable of killing massive numbers of Gazans?

Were you really not ready to level the "it's-a-crime-to-compare-anything-to-the-Holocaust?" charge? I apologize for jumping the gun if this wasn't the case.

[oberliner]

12. My position on the people of Gaza is not what you make it out to be

I do not think their situation is comparable to a Holocaust-era ghetto and I do not think they will be subject to Holocaust-style liquidation.

Those claims and that use of terminology I dispute and I would hope any other reasonable person would agree.

That takes nothing away from the fact that I completely opposed the Israeli invasion of Gaza, that I am completely opposed to the continued Gaza blockade, and I would be completely opposed to any future invasion of Gaza.

I think that the West Bank and Gaza should form an independent Palestinian state and that the Israeli presence there should be zero.

Your ascribing of various bizarre and outlandish positions to me with respect to Gaza is complete nonsense.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

13. I asked you about your position, and suggested your concern over terminology

(a privilege) might be misplaced.

[oberliner]

15. It's not a privilege - it's a question

Human beings are capable of being concerned about whatever they want. They can even be concerned about several different things at the same time.

A person can be unemployed and unable to feed a family that has to go home hungry ever night and still care who wins American Idol.

There is no privilege involved in asking a question.

There are Palestinians who would be quite repulsed by the comparison to Nazi Germany, and regardless, I thought it was against the policy of this board to make such a comparison. I could be wrong on that, though.

[LeftishBrit]

18. Off the I/P topic but I disagree with one pojnt...

'Only those with a roof over their head and a full belly have the privilege of worrying about historical labels.'

In theory, this would seem like a valid point. In practice, it is disproved over and over again. It is precisely those who are in desperately bad conditions who are most likely to be influenced by historical labels, events and myths; who are most likely to fall sway to dogmas and myths that make it appear that there is a simple solution to their suffering, often through the building up of their own group at the expense of others, and a promise of a return to a mythical time when their group flourished. Nationalist and tribalist movements tend to have their strongest following in bad economic times and/or in poor regions and countries.

Not more relevant to Israelis or Palestinians than to other groups (though it does have some relevance to both, and in particular to the counterproductiveness of the threatened boycotts of Israel, and the actual boycotts and worse of Palestine); but it was a point that struck me.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

19. My point being, the mother whose daughter was murdered by the IDF in OCL

isn't concerned about whether or not it is appropriate to liken her situation to the Warsaw ghetto.

For her, it's irrelevant.

Protecting the purity of the holocaust brand is a function of those in power and is hardly a concern of Israel's victims.

[pelsar]

21. thats where your wrong...

thought the victims of any conflict dont really care about the labels, the words leading up to the conflict very much matter.....You don't have to care about the Holocaust branding in itself, but the use of the Holocaust brand does have a direct/indirect relation to the conflict and the dead and wounded bodies that pile up.

i'm in fact a good example....my grandparents went through the pogoms of russia and other relatives the holocaust....now perhaps for many there is no relationship to the I/P conflict but for me its direct.

The world made up all kinds of storys that made it credible to kill/terrorize/discriminate against the jews during those periods and before....it was all acceptable, not by just the man in the street but by the educated. So when i see the same nonsense being written directed at me today (gaza is like warsaw etc, israel massacres Palestinians, hunt down civilians, send candies laced with aids, etc etc etc), it very much reminds me of my grandparents and other relatives....stories made up to demonize jews and now israelis....only this time we don't have to run away.

and thats why i promote israeli kids going in to the IDF and into combat units..... and not avoiding it. A direct and concrete affect of how those words affect the conflict.

stop with the BS, made up stories, exaggerations, hyperbole and there is a chance I'll promote national service as an option to the IDF....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

22. I am not speaking in generalities.

I am specifically saying that it's absurd to expect Palestinians to participate in protecting the purity of the Holocaust brand. That's your concern, and in this forum, the concern of I/P mods. Palestinians have their own language to describe the horrors of Israel's violent military occupation and siege.

I do think Palestinians should be well educated in historical facts. There is much to be learned, namely: RESIST.

[pelsar]

27. its their loss....

whereas i do not agree with many of the events described by the Palestinians....my favorite being the Christ was a Palestinian.....i would be wrong not to respect their version of the events. Not because i agree or disagree but simply because i am aware that stepping one their sacred "objects" is bad for cooperation, which is essential to end the conflict, since there is not going to a 'winner or loser in the classic sense.

you keep making the mistake of what i "expect' from the Palestinians. I infact expect nothing out of them..zilch, nada,.....i can only suggest a few things that might help end the conflict, but i expect nothing out of them and will react to their actions.

Invoking the Holocaust either by the Palestinians or their supporters is really a stupid idea..assuming that they want my positive input or reaction, since it does the opposite.

[shaayecanaan]

25. When I was in the Congo (equally off topic)...

it was at a particularly bad point in the African World War. I stayed in Kinshasa most of the time. That was back when the old man wanted me to join him in the shiny pebble trade.

Still, whenever you traveled on the roads you could see oubliettes of corpses piled here and there. And there was a refugee camp not far from the city. I once saw a child in the street fingering through human shit. Apparently they did this to find flecks of grain that they could boil and eat.

In Kinshasa, there was a statue of King Leopold II, the Belgian king who enslaved the whole country to harvest rubber a century ago. The Congolese would leech the latex sap onto their chests and then pick off the rubber tack as it dried on their skin. If they weren't quick enough about it they would be killed and one of their hands lopped off to show the King that the workers were being kept in line. Some two-thirds of the Congo, about 10 million were killed that way.

I was astonished that they would keep the statue there, but most Congolese seemed not to care. They saw no need to commemorate the events of a hundred years ago as they did not see them as notable or remarkable. They had died in huge numbers then and were dying in huge numbers now. Their existence was a purgatory, relieved here and there only by stretches of pure hell. Knowing what it was like to be slaughtered did not require a feat of memory for them, they had the benefit of direct and ongoing experience.

Personally, I think the sum total of white suffering (Jewish, Irish, Armenian etc) would not be a drop compared to the ocean of black suffering. The holocaust may have been bad, but it was over in five years. On the other hand, I became an atheist after the Congo. A belief in God can be reconciled with periodic atrocities, perhaps they are a test of faith, or a formative experience. But unrelenting, undidactic misery is another thing entirely. There seemed no point to it.

Anyway, my point is that the truly desperate have no time for historical labels because they have no time for history. Congolese fight and kill and join armies out of the hope of a steady eating regimen and maybe even a modicum of pay.

Obviously, the Palestinian problem receives attention far in excess of its humanitarian significance if one looks at the Congo. But by the same standard the attention given to anti-Semitism is even more disproportionate.

I often think about this problem. The analogy that fits best is a high-profile murder case (think OJ Simpson). You are a prosecutor with a finite amount of resources. You have a murderer who is wealthy and is very well-defended by a lawyer. To have any prospects of getting a guilty verdict in the case, you will need to devote a disproportionate amount of resources to it, even if it means taking resources away from much lower-profile cases.

I suppose then you are left with the quandary of whether you let the resourceful and loquacious get away with murder, or do you make sure that lower-profile cases get the attention they deserve? It may be a false dichotomy, but somehow I don't think so...

[Violet_Crumble]

16. Well, the last one went so well it should be pretty easy to sell to the Israeli public n/t

[pelsar]

20. time for reality...the view from the every day civilian......

there is nothing to "prepare' the public for.....been there, seen it, lived it. If hamas decides to try to kill israelis again with their missiles..and given that the longer range ones will hit larger cities and threaten more people, and have more explosives the IDF will react once again.

and the Israeli public has seen it happen before from Lebanon, so there is really nothing to "prepare the public for." We all know hamas has been importing larger missiles along with new cars...it will be their decision and their decision alone if they want a new war.

for those who dont like to look at the events...i shall explain:

no kassams........no israeli missiles, tank shells, invasions etc

if there are kassams-i.e. terrorist attacks on israel......border closures, tank shells, commando raids, helicopter missiles etc....and dead Palestinians

that is a summary of the events of the past few years.....the key element is that hamas decides if they want a war or not, not israel.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

23. Every day Jewish Israeli civilian, who is sometimes not a civilian at all, you mean.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

26. ... and by Israel's own standard, you are no civilian!

[pelsar]

31. what does that mean?

i do reserve duty once, twice a year.....big deal....that makes me a civilian...

[bstender]

28. Israel helps the decision along quite actively

pelsar says: "...the key element is that hamas decides if they want a war or not, not israel.

but the rest of the story is that, if they don't choose to resist, they choose to sacrifice their basic human rights, their land, their freedom, their future, their autonomy, their self determination. no people in this world ever choose to accept the occupier. palestinians are no different. of course they will choose war, and Pelsar sneers, like a cat playing with a mouse. it's a no-win situation for the unarmed palestinians.

[pelsar]

30. check in to the options and the history...

if you know or if not, and prefer to get educated you'll learn what works to cause israeli withdrawls and what doesnt. There is more than enough history since 67 to show how israel reacts.


this is of course is dependant upon if you have an open mind and are willing to learn and differentiate between the various events and politics...for some its rather difficult.

[bemildred]

29. IDF Chief: Israel will fight in Gaza again if needed

Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi said Friday that the army would not hesitate to respond if Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip continued to fire rockets at Israel.

"We are prepared to contend with the whole arc of threats," Ashkenazi told students during a visit to a Be'er Sheva high school, citing both the local defense situation as well as Iran's contentious nuclear program.

Although the Hamas rulers in Gaza have of late been "restraining themselves and others," said Ashkenazi, "we must not fool ourselves. If necessary, we will operate again in the Gaza Strip to stop the rocket fire. "In reference to the Goldstone Commission's damning report on Israel's conduct during the war on the Gaza Strip earlier this year, Ashkenazi emphasized that the IDF had the responsibility to defend itself at all costs.

"We must defend ourselves when we see a militant cell rigging Grad rockets in the direction of Be'er Sheva, and that is exactly what we did ," the IDF chief said.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1128019.html

[bemildred]

32. ANALYSIS / Next round of Gaza hostilities will be more intense

The Israeli reactions to the conclusions reached by the Goldstone Commission about Operation Cast Lead are characterized by large doses of affront and anger. But the issue of the next war is no less important. Justice Richard Goldstone, who conducted his investigation on the basis of a clearly ideological approach, effectively operated as an "unknowing agent" of Tehran. The practical significance of his report is that Israel is liable to wage its next war, against a more serious threat than the one posed by Hamas, with its arms and legs shackled.

Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi this week told the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee that Hezbollah is in possession of missiles with a range of 300-325 kilometers. He then reiterated the IDF's rejection of the accusations concerning its behavior in the Gaza operation. "I am not the commander of an army of murderers, looters and rapists," Ashkenazi asserted. The two statements are connected.

Backing the soldiers and thwarting the establishment of a state inquiry commission in the wake of the Goldstone report is the army's declared stance, according to the chief of staff, but this far from reflects a consensus. Ashkenazi and Brig. Gen. Avichai Mendelblit, the military advocate general, were cautioned already toward the end of Operation Cast Lead that a delay in carrying out operational debriefings and criminal investigations would work against Israel. Academic experts conveyed a similar opinion to Attorney General Menachem Mazuz, who supported Mendelblit's approach. The need for an additional Israeli examination of the events in Gaza did not dissipate after the publication of the Goldstone report, and it goes beyond the growing danger that suits will be filed against IDF officers abroad.

The report, which is being quoted everywhere and already almost constitutes a binding document, does not change the essence of the threat that Israel will confront in another round of fighting, in Gaza and especially in Lebanon. The next round will likely be more intense than previous campaigns - more rockets of higher accuracy and greater range, "from Dimona northward," as Military Intelligence puts it. To put a stop to the firing, the IDF will have to use considerable force, combining massive firepower with the deployment of ground forces.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127841.html

[DU GrovelBot]

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