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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 03:33 PM
Original message
Lebanese villagers recorded driving away Hezbollah men
Edited on Wed Aug-26-09 03:53 PM by shira
Footage taken by IDF shows Hezbollah members attempting to take over houses in southern Lebanese village, locals fighting back, kicking out intruders

Hanan Greenberg
Published: 08.25.09, 21:37 / Israel News


The IDF published on Tuesday a video depicting an altercation that took place this week in the southern Lebanese village of Marwakhin between local residents and Hezbollah operatives.

Taken by a unit of the IDF's Field Intelligence Corps, the video shows a group of Hezbollah members arriving at the village and attempting, according to the army's estimates, to take over residents' houses and store weapons and rockets inside.

However, the village resident did not remain quiet, and tried to forcefully resist the attempt. At some point the Hezbollah men fired their guns in the air, and the locals did the same in response.

After hours of clashes Lebanese Army forces arrived at the village in a bid to prevent a violent clash from erupting. There were apparently no injuries in the altercation. Two days later the members of the Shiite organization finally left the mostly Sunni village under Lebanese Army protection.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3767150,00.ht...

actual video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo637hnYTH4

Just waiting for reports from the folks working hard at UNIFIL, Amnesty Int'l, and HRW. Anytime now. It's also amazing how the IDF scoops everyone else on such a story - the MSM, human rights groups, UNIFIL, etc...wow! Amazing! :eyes:
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. But I thought hezbollah were freedom fighters and aid workers
working on behalf of the lebanese people (who love them).

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. yes - and Norman Finkelstein respects Hezbollah for being freedom fighters
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. I wonder whether this constitutes evidence of Hezbollah deliberately using Lebanese as human shields
Edited on Wed Aug-26-09 05:57 PM by shira
...something that both HRW and AI, credible organizations that they are WRT everything I/P, denied in the 2006 war.

:eyes:

Somebody tell me again, whose human rights are HRW and AI defending when they do not attempt to hold Hezbollah accountable to international law by standing up for Lebanese civilians?

===========

And can anyone point to any UNIFIL reports (or media reports) of Hezbollah forcing themselves into civilian neighborhoods and facilities since the end of hostilities in 2006? Or shall we pretend this act, caught on camera by the IDF, is the first such incident in 3 years?

===========

Looks like Hezbollah is very successful in never allowing certain information out - and all the 'peace' and 'humanitarian' groups in Lebanon just dance to Hezbollah's tune. I wonder what they all get in return for their silence?

Sad.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Not really...
Edited on Wed Aug-26-09 06:45 PM by shaayecanaan
I wonder whether this constitutes evidence of Hezbollah deliberately using Lebanese as human shields

Actually, it doesn't constitute evidence of very much at all. There's no sound and just some figures in the background that are rather hard to make out. Even da Maronite boyz on the LF forum, word, were sceptical, and they generally believe anything bad about Hezbollah:-

http://www.lebanese-forces.org/vbullet/showthread.php?p...

On the other hand, there is excellent evidence pointing to the fact that Israel used white phosphorus munitions in heavily built up areas, eg:-

h**p://

You have called the claim that Palestinians suffered injuries from white phosphorus "bogus" - yet you are prepared to believe the IDF's account of this incident based on some pretty threadbare evidence. Again, I think this says more about you than it does regarding any of the human rights organisations that you like to obsess about.

The problem with the "human shields" theory is that it presumes putting civilians between yourself and Israel will shield you, whereas Israel has shown itself to be fairly indifferent to civilian casualties. Israel has already figured out that the people who get pissed off about civilian casualties are already firmly against Israel, and that its remaining supporters, like yourself, are unlikely to be deterred in their support no matter how many Arabs are killed.

The village in the photos is the village of Marwaheen, which is indeed a Sunni village. They certainly aren't Hezbollah supporters. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean a great deal to the IDF and in 2006 their village was bombed anyway. 20 people died, all civilians. There was a photo of the incident, a bit of child's skull, looking like a piece of coconut shell, with the fluff of a newborn baby's hair still attached to it.

I thought about that bit of skull as I read the responses to the story from right-wing Americans and Israelis saying to the Sunnis "we are with you".

Looks like Hezbollah is very successful in never allowing certain information out - and all the 'peace' and 'humanitarian' groups in Lebanon just dance to Hezbollah's tune. I wonder what they all get in return for their silence?

Cocaine, probably. And hookers.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. of course not - and last month's explosion in a S.Lebanon home wasn't evidence of that either
just curious - are you Lebanese?

to answer you specifically:

1. on White Phosphorus - there's no question it was used, but what real medical/military evidence exists confirming Gazan casualties were due to WP? How about interviews with people proven to have suffered due to WP? Or is this too much to ask?

2. as for human shields, you realize the casualty count from 2006 was right around a 1:1 ratio between civilians and combatants?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War#Hezbollah

That's a figure that's better than NATO's results the past half-century, and better than any other modern military whose country was under direct attack. Your claims are baseless.

Of course - we can pretend Hezbollah's claims on the civilian death count in 2006 are more credible than any other claims, but it makes me wonder why anyone would wish to believe that.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Pretty sure I've mentioned it before...
My maternal grandmother was Druze. My mother was however raised a Maronite. My father was born to Syro-Aramaic (Aramaic speaking Christian) parents but is nominally Maronite as well. Ergo I am of Maronite background, I suppose.

Of course - we can pretend Hezbollah's claims on the civilian death count in 2006 are more credible than any other claims, but it makes me wonder why anyone would wish to believe that.

The core of Hezbollah numbers about 1000 members. Its auxiliaries are about 2000 more. It can call on a larger number of reservist volunteers, however, during the 2006 war it felt no need to do so.

It defies logic that any paramilitary organisation could sustain up to 1000 casualties (which some people are arguing for) without routing, let alone without calling up its reserves. If you presume that there are two people wounded for every one killed (the usual ratio) then the war would have ended without just about every Hezbollah fighter wounded or killed.

Part of the difficulty is in clarifying who is Hezbollah. If a Hezbollah reservist is killed, and he is not a civilian, does that mean that an Israeli adult who is also killed is not a civilian (as just about every Israeli adult of suitable age is a reservist)?

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Kurska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Where do you get the 1000 members, 2000 reservists number from? n/t
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Try their Wikipedia page. Pretty much any book on Hezbollah
Edited on Thu Aug-27-09 09:19 PM by shaayecanaan
states the number of full time military members in the organisation to be about 1000. Note: I didnt say that their reserves are 2000 - as indicated in my post their reserves are larger, but they were not mobilised during the 2006 war.
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Alamuti Lotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I can confirm the cocaine and hookers
I don't know who their supplier is (possibly Hugo Chavez {aka The Red Menace}, well-renowned among other right-wing factions of this board for being responsible for most of the evil anywhere), but I certainly appreciate the support they have given in buying off the blind eye I turn towards such obvious, cut-and-dry cases of evilosity, heroically brought to light by a universally-respected and blemish-free entity such as the matter above. No, I could not type that sentence with a straight face; took some serious will-power to finally polish off that poorly constructed run-on fragmentfest.

And by the way, excellent retort to the shrill automaton. Falling upon deaf ears no doubt, but effectively constructed and presented all the same.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. Cluster munitions be damned....
I am just glad that the children of the middle East are being kept safe from Swedish tabloid journalists, praise be to the beautiful people. As for cocaine, you must be higher up the Hezbollah pyramid selling scheme than I am. I sent in the scalps of 14 infidels expecting to get my 75 virgins mailed to me and all I got was a bag of pop rocks and a fleshlight. I'm thinking of writing a snarky letter.
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Alamuti Lotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. well, I am what one might call 'well connected'
Edited on Thu Aug-27-09 09:48 PM by Alamuti Lotus
a good friend of mine manages one of Hizbu'llah's hospitals in Nabatiyeh, she's been there since the great celebrations that took place in 2000. Family went back home to discover that the more or less heap of rubble they left had been rebuilt in their absence (farm destroyed in either '93 or '96, forget exactly; airstrikes took out the main building, tanks and APCs scared off most of the animals). Hope that answers shira's question, though I do doubt the geniune nature of the inquiry.

I can put in a word about the pop rocks and virgins, they're usually pretty decent about that sort of thing; there might've been troubles in Customs.
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Alamuti Lotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Marwahin, 15 July 2006: The anatomy of a massacre
It is actually really touching to see how concerned the IDF is for the citizens there; it wasn't always this way.....

In antiquity, Pliny wrote of the cliffs of Bayada. The chalk runs down to the Mediterranean in an almost Dover-like cascade of white rock, and the view from the top - just below the little Lebanese village of Chama'a - is breathtaking. To the south lies the United Nations headquarters and the Israeli frontier, to the north the city of Tyre, its long promentary, built by Alexander the Great, lunging out into the green-blue sea. A winding, poorly-made road runs down to the shore below Chama'a and for some reason - perhaps because he had caught sight of the Israeli warship off the coast - 58-year-old Ali Kemal Abdullah took a right turn above the Mediterranean on the morning of 15 July. In the open-topped pick-up behind him, Ali had packed 27 Lebanese refugees, most of them children. Twenty-three of them were to die within the next 15 minutes.

The tragedy of these poor young people and of their desperate attempts to survive their repeated machine-gunning from the air is as well-known in Lebanon as it is already forgotten abroad. War crimes are easy to talk about when they have been committed in Rwanda or Bosnia; less so in Lebanon, especially when the Israelis are involved. But all the evidence suggests that what happened on this blissfully lovely coastline two and a half months ago was a crime against humanity, one that is impossible to justify on any military grounds since the dead and wounded were fleeing their homes on the express orders of the Israelis themselves.

Mohamed Abdullah understands the reality of that terrible morning because his 52-year-old wife Zahra, his sons Hadi, aged six, and 15-year-old Wissam, and his daughters, Marwa, aged 10, and 13-year old Myrna, were in the pick-up. Zahra was to die. So was Hadi and the beautiful little girl Myrna whose photograph - with immensely intelligent, appealing eyes - now haunts the streets of Marwahin. Wissam, a vein in his leg cut open by an Israeli missile as he vainly tried to save Myrna's life, sits next to his father as he talks to me outside their Beirut house, its walls drenched in black cloth.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. NYT: Christians Fleeing Lebanon Denounce Hezbollah - July 27, 2006
Edited on Wed Aug-26-09 09:34 PM by shira
it really warms the heart to see how concerned some 'progressives' here are about Lebanese victims of Hezbollah, or how blameless HRW and AI (credible orgs that they are) for denying Hezbollah deliberate use of Lebanese shields.

Christians Fleeing Lebanon Denounce Hezbollah

But for some of the Christians who had made it out in this convoy, it was not just privations they wanted to talk about, but their ordeal at the hands of Hezbollah a contrast to the Shiites, who make up a vast majority of the population in southern Lebanon and broadly support the militia.

Hezbollah came to Ain Ebel to shoot its rockets, said Fayad Hanna Amar, a young Christian man, referring to his village. They are shooting from between our houses.

Please, he added, write that in your newspaper.

-------

Many Christians from Ramesh and Ain Ebel considered Hezbollahs fighting methods as much of an outrage as the Israeli strikes. Mr. Amar said Hezbollah fighters in groups of two and three had come into Ain Ebel, less than a mile from Bint Jbail, where most of the fighting has occurred. They were using it as a base to shoot rockets, he said, and the Israelis fired back.

One woman, who would not give her name because she had a government job and feared retribution, said Hezbollah fighters had killed a man who was trying to leave Bint Jbail.

This is whats happening, but no one wants to say it for fear of Hezbollah, she said.

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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. From CSM 7/28/2006
Edited on Wed Aug-26-09 11:07 PM by azurnoir
The stakes are high for Hizbullah, but it seems it can count on an unprecedented swell of public support that cuts across sectarian lines.According to a poll released by the Beirut Center for Research and Information, 87 percent of Lebanese support Hizbullah's fight with Israel, a rise of 29 percent on a similar poll conducted in February. More striking, however, is the level of support for Hizbullah's resistance from non-Shiite communities. Eighty percent of Christians polled supported Hizbullah along with 80 percent of Druze and 89 percent of Sunnis.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0728/p06s01-wome.html

did you forget a link? thats OK Shira I'll provide one for you

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/world/middleeast/28re...

we're pretty familiar with the "even handedness" of their reporting of the 2006 conflict what with printing the name and life story of almost every Israeli killed guess they did not quite have room for the Lebanese
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grassfed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. IDF warned villagers to flee then bombed them as they tried to
Edited on Thu Aug-27-09 12:06 PM by grassfed
Marwahin, 15 July 2006: The anatomy of a massacre

Within a few seconds, Wissam says, an Israeli Apache helicopter arrived over the f vehicle, very low and hovering just above the children. "I saw Myrna still in the pick-up and she was crying and pleading for help. I went to get her and that's when the helicopter hit us. Its missile hit the back of the vehicle where all the children were and I couldn't hear anything because the blast had damaged my ears. Then the helicopter fired a rocket into the car behind the pick-up. But the pilot must have seen what he was doing. He could see we were mostly children. The pick-up didn't have a roof. All the children were crammed in the back and clearly visible."

Wissam talks slowly but without tears as he describes what happened next. "I lost sight of Myrna. I just couldn't see her any more for the dust flying around. Then the helicopter came back and started firing its guns at the children, at any of them who moved. I ran away behind a tel and lay there and pretended to be dead because I knew the pilot would kill me if I moved. Some of the children were in bits."

Wissam is correct about the mutilations. Hadi was burned to death in Zahra's arms. She died clutching his body to her. Two small girls - Fatmi and Zainab Ghanem - were blasted into such small body parts that they were buried together in the same grave after the war was over. Other children lay wounded by the initial shell burst and rocket explosions as the helicopter attacked them again. Only four survived, Wissam and his sister Marwa among them, hearing the sound of bullets as they "played dead" amid the corpses.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/...


IDF indiscriminately struck Lebanon civilians
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/901620.html
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. why do you think I posted that article? it was to show that Hezbollah did a fantastic job of....
Edited on Thu Aug-27-09 02:37 PM by shira
...persuading organizations like HRW, AI, some MSM, Lebanese civilians, etc... not to report on Hezbollah's exploitation of human shields. Here's another article for you - so that you can see your reports are missing crucial context...

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=35...

...context that shows HRW and other organizations were lying when they claimed Hezbollah was not around using civilians as shields and therefore Israel acted indiscriminately.

Based on HRW's alleged "eyewitness" accounts and the accounts from my 2 articles that dispute HRW's findings, how do you know that what you're posting is accurate and honest?

Hezbollah casualties in Lebanon 2006
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War#Hezbollah

Given that the civilians/combatants kill ratio was around 1:1 - which is better than NATO standards - meaning the rest of the world fights MUCH dirtier wars than Israel, including all western nations like your own - what makes you cling to your blind faith in HRW reports? It's clear that their demonization against Israel amounts to a complete and immoral inversion of reality based on nothing but hate.

The USA is still killing thousands of civilians in Afghanistan and Pakistan....the majority of the left in the USA is dead silent and could seemingly care less about it. There's no way the Israeli left would have the stomach to let the IDF keep doing what the USA and UK are doing - so what are you doing to prevent massacres by your own troops that are at least 10x worse than the crap you just cited?

Right....you're pointing "over there", aren't you?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. LOL Shira editting Wiki does not change history
Edited on Thu Aug-27-09 04:40 PM by azurnoir

I have been keeping track of the history of slowly but surely editing all wiki pages concerning the 2006 Lebanon conflict civilians first became citizens then changed to civilians and combatants
I had wondered how long it would be before that last change was made
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. rotflol, if you think i even have the first clue or initiative to edit wiki
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Did I say you? Nope but it is quite well known
that Campus Watch is/was making "subtle" and incremental to Wiki to it more ProIsrael
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. sigh - let us all know if you find any BS in that section on Hezbollah combatant casualties
or if you find either of the articles cited doesn't prove HRW and AI lied about there not being evidence of Hezbollah using Lebanese human shields.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Yeah I'll be sure to do that LOL
what nothing about Jenin?
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Alamuti Lotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-27-09 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. "what about Jenin? nothing at all ever happened there, always been swell"
That Jenin? Surely you jest. :)
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-28-09 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. ah, Jenin 2002, a case study of everything that is wrong when reporting this conflict
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Alamuti Lotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-29-09 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. also a case of everything that is wrong with revisionist tendencies
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-30-09 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I agree - the fact Jenin 2002 was billed as a massacre with hundreds murdered is my point
did you know PA combatants boobytrapped parts of the camp and intentionally put Palestinian children and women at risk? What do you think of that?
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Alamuti Lotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-30-09 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. You are what I was referring to, dear.
Edited on Sun Aug-30-09 10:44 PM by Alamuti Lotus
Reference also that "always been swell" parody above. Good parody actually quite adeptly imitates the mark; sometimes a bit too adeptly for comfort.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-30-09 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. it appears discussing that hoax from 2002 is discomforting to you
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