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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 04:32 PM
Original message
Human rights groups condemn bloody weekend violence in Gaza
Palestinian human rights organizations on Sunday condemned bloody clashes between Hamas security forces and Al-Qaida-affiliated militants who seized control of a Gaza Strip mosque Friday night.

The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR) and the Gaza-based al-Damir for Human Rights called for an investigation into fighting between Hamas security forces and members of the Jihad al-Salafi group after the group's leader, Abdel-Latif Moussa, called for an Islamic emirate during his Friday sermon.

At least 24 people, including Moussa, were killed in the fighting, and at least 120 more wounded. According to some reports, six unarmed civilians were among the dead.

Al-Damir said the casualty toll was caused by the use of "fatal and excessive force by Hamas security forces, which were aided by its armed wing, the Qassam Brigades."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1107862.html
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 02:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. What's yr opinion of PCHR?
They also condemn IDF attacks and violence against civilians. Do you think they're credible regardless of who they're condemning?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. They have never condemned the IDF
They have condemned something called the IOF which does not actually exist.

But in spite of this reframing, I admire their willingness to attempt to document both Israeli and Palestinian human rights violations.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. They definately have condemned the IDF....
Just coz you don't like the IDF being called an occupation force doesn't mean that it's not the IDF that's being condemned....
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. They don't write "The IDF, an occupation force, is guilty of..." - they write "The IOF"
Edited on Mon Aug-17-09 05:23 PM by oberliner
I do not believe that there are any Palestinian groups that they invent a different name for, are there?

Edit to add:

What's your take on the OP and the incident between Hamas and Jund Ansar Allah? Do you think Hamas's action was appropriate?
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. "The IOF" is more accurate in my view
"Defense" Forces is merely the standard Orwellian euphemism which any person with much sophistication regarding international affairs can readily decipher
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Hamas means "Islamic Resistance Movement"
I would imagine that any person with sophistication regarding international affairs can decipher that "Resistance" in this case is an Orwellian euphemism for murdering innocent civilians, which is an action that has repeatedly fallen under the Hamas definition of "resistance."

In spite of this, I have not seen any organizations make the decision to refer to Hamas by whatever the Arabic acronym for Islamic Movement for the Murder of Israeli Civilians is.

It helps to show a lack of bias if you call the group what the group calls itself, in my opinion.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. And who the hell do you think the IOF is? It's the IDF...
Edited on Tue Aug-18-09 06:50 AM by Violet_Crumble
So to try to say that they've never condemned the IDF is imo just a little bit on the dishonest side...

No, I don't think Hamas's actions were appropriate at all. When it comes to the use of excessive force and the killing of civilians I don't care if it's the IOF or Hamas responsible - I'm opposed to all of it....

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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Does their changing of the name reflect any bias on their part?
If a group decided to refer to the Republican Party as the Moron Party wouldn't that suggest some bias, even if you agreed that the choice of the new name was an accurate description?

In regards to your opposition to the actions of Hamas in this recent incident, what, if any, steps do you think should have been taken with respect to Jund Ansar Allah?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. They're being honest, something you don't appear to appreciate...
Calling someone a moron is in most cases purely objective as well as an insult. Why is it that you seem to think referring to what the IOF does in the West Bank as occupation is purely objective and an insult as well?

As to the second question - I have no idea.

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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. There is no such thing as the IOF so they can't do anything in the West Bank
I have no problem with anyone describing the actions of the IDF in the West Bank as it relates to the occupation as critically and accurately as possible.

Just as I would think one would have no problem describing terrorist acts committed by Hamas without changing their name to the Movement for the Killing of Israeli Civilians in the Name of Resistance even though that would be an objective description of one component of their activities.



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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Could you please answer the question I asked you?
It's pretty annoying that you fire off endless questions, which I show you the respect of answering, yet you don't bother answering mine when I ask you a question....

Yr very aware that they refer to the IDF as the IOF and they have condemned the IDF in the past. Pretending otherwise is a bitincredibly pointless, and an example of where I think yr priorities are very askew.....
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I think its an insult to call someone or something by a name other than they one they have chosen
I think it's an insult when RWers call the Democratic Party the "Democrat Party" or when Netanyahu calls Gaza "Hamastan" or what have you, and I think it's an insult to call the IDF anything other than the IDF.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I think that's incredibly silly...
*You* get insulted when people use colloquial terms and nicknames? That's so ridiculous it defies belief. Many Americans tend to call my nationality 'Aussie' rather than the correct term 'Australian' and you find that insulting even though yr not an Australian. I'd tell you to grow a backbone and to stop being so mega-uber ultrasensitive. I'm assuming that in the US people often don't use official names and terms, so you must spend a lot of time getting offended. If you can't see the difference between calling people morons and for example me being called an Aussie, then I really am gobsmacked to the max...
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-19-09 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. We are talking about the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights
Edited on Wed Aug-19-09 09:56 PM by oberliner
This is not the equivalent of some random American calling you an "Aussie" - this is a human rights organization that is deliberately choosing to re-name an Israeli entity something other than what it is actually called.

Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and B'tselem are all human rights organizations that have been extremely critical of the actions of the IDF. In doing so, however, they do not change the name to something else.

This helps to demonstrate that these groups are attempting to be fair and objective arbiters of human rights issues among the various parties.

If an Israeli human rights organization decided to call Hamas something other than Hamas then that would tell you that the organization may be something other than completely objective in their reporting.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-20-09 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. You were talking about Republicans. Strange that suddenly you narrow the focus...
Y'know, if you want to solely talk about one thing, maybe you should set the example by not talking about all sorts of other things. Just a suggestion, but it's very hard to respect what you have to say when you use examples with the Republican Party and chide me for doing something very similar...

I knew before this thread that being a Palestinian NGO, you'd make a point of attempting to discredit them when it comes to their condemnation of Israels actions, which is exactly what yr attempting to do here. I'd understand it if what they call the IOF was something negative and abusive, but it's not. The West Bank is occupied and the Israeli military are the occupation force, and being Palestinian, they're affected every day by this occupation. Seeing you've accused them of not being fair and objective, can you please provide some examples to back up yr claim from their reports?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-20-09 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I thought the Republican example helped to illustrate the point
However from your "Aussie" response, it seemed like I was not being clear with that example so I attempted to bring us back to the specific case at hand. Obviously I am not doing a good job in my efforts to try to persuade you that a group referring to an organization by a name other than what they are called reflects something about the group itself. I will no longer attempt to make this point as it is evident that no matter how I try to explain it to you, you will not accept that premise.

As to the PCHR, I am not attempting to discredit them at all. I would argue that having a particular bias or point of view does not make an organization not credible.

But certainly they are not "objective" - do you actually claim that they are? They themselves do not make any claims of objectivity with respect to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. They present a particular point of view on the subject, and no doubt that has some influence on the work they do with respect to Israel, Hamas, Fatah, and all the other actors.

Within their subjective, framework, however, I admire their attempts to bring to light activities that they perceive to be violations of human rights - be they committed by Israelis or Palestinians.

I wish that you had chosen to devote a little bit of time to making some comment about PCHR's remarks regarding the recent incident that left several innocent Palestinians killed, including children, rather than sidetracking away from the important issues cited in the OP.

I wish you thought that the Hamas/Jund Ansar Allah conflict was as worthy of discussion as my personal thoughts on the significance of the use of "IOF" in place of IDF.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-20-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. you distinguish well between bias, subjectivity, and credibility
almost all groups chiming in on this conflict are biased one way or the other - the problem is that some of those groups CLAIM to be objective and fair when they are obviously not, and when the points they raise are proven to be false or concocted, there are many here who pretend that these biased organizations are still credible.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. As did my Australian example....
However from yr response, it seems very much like you have a strong desire to make it so you can use examples and I can't. Obviously I'm not interested in being 'persuaded' about what is, in my opinion, an incredibly petty and quite anal opinion ....

What part of what I said about the OP didn't you comprehend? I didn't realise I was expected to compose a massive post about something that I'm not all that knowledgable about. And what I did say was possibly more than what you had to say back in January when it came to voicing any opposition to Operation Cast Lead. I'd wish you'd stop telling other posters what they should discuss and how they should discuss it. And just in case you've forgotten, yr the one who started off about the IOF thing, so don't complain when someone else doesn't agree with what you raised in that regard...





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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. I'm not complaining about anything
I'm very happy to continue the discussion about the significance of PCHR's use of the made-up name "IOF" for as long as you'd like. I do, however, think it would be preferable to discuss something a bit weightier such as the issues raised in the OP. Here are some questions I would love to get perspectives on:

Has this group actually been "crushed" or are they still active in Gaza?

How do most Gazans perceive the action taken by Hamas against them? Would most argue that they did the right thing or that the response was too harsh considering that children were killed?

Is this group one that was entirely Gaza-based or did they involve people from other countries? If the latter, how did these people get into Gaza and what is their relationship with Hamas?

Is there any truth to the claims (vehemently denied) that Fatah had something to do with this group?

How will Hamas proceed in the wake of this incident? Will they be responsive to any of the issues that the group raised?

To clarify, I absolutely do not tell people what they should discuss or how they should discuss it. I just express my disappointment that no one seems to want to pursue the questions that I would think might be interesting.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. It came across very much as that....
Edited on Fri Aug-21-09 04:09 AM by Violet_Crumble
If you wanted to discuss the OP, it should have occured to you not to bring up yr oft-repeated trivial objection to the IDF being referred to as the IOF. You were replying to a question of mine, and I asked you about yr opinions on PCHR's credibility, not about bias, so why you chose to bring that up is something that's not at all clear....

So many questions! Maybe you should try reading up by searching around on the net? It seems much less annoying and more mature a way of doing things than expressing yr disappointment because others aren't particularly interested in discussing something that interests you...
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. You can pick any of the questions that is of interest to you
Edited on Fri Aug-21-09 04:17 AM by oberliner
I thought it might possibly spark a conversation if I included a variety. I've read a bunch of online sources, but I'd love to get opinions from my fellow DUers.

But if you don't care to discuss any of it or don't have enough information or are just annoyed with the whole thing then that is fine too.

And there is no such thing as the IOF. Groups that want to be critical of the IDF ought to call it by what it is called (as most do). That's my position on that, trivial as it may be. Feel free to go ahead and embrace the made-up name if you'd like - it's a surefire way to annoy me, and since I've annoyed you so much it seems only fair!


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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. I'm not interested in yr questions...
I told you only about a post or so back that I didn't have enough information to discuss things in detail, so I don't know why yr acting as though I never said it...

I already know what yr position is about the IDF being referred to as the IOF, as you've only repeated it multiple times in multiple threads. I think yr opinion is quite silly, but I think I've already let you know that and there's no point repeating it. I'm just not really sure why you brought it up initially in this thread, as it didn't have anything to do with what I originally asked you....
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. That you are not interested in those questions is absolutely inexplicable
I cannot imagine why anyone who has any interest in anything related to the Palestinian people could feel that none of those questions are worth talking about or that not enough information is available to discuss those questions in detail. Several articles from different perspectives with various points of view have in fact been posted here in this very forum.

Can you share what details you feel you are missing or would need to learn more about in order to be able to formulate some kind of opinion on what took place between Hamas and the Jund Ansar Allah group? I would be more than willing to research those questions and share my findings if you are too busy to do so.

You have a tendency to prod people to answer questions that you've asked, often with a "Kick for Oberliner" or something similar if the question has gone unanswered. I believe that in every such instance I have done you the courtesy to attempt to answer your questions in such cases. Please, if you would, return the favor and respond to the question I have asked in the paragraph above. Thank you in advance.


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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. That's not what you said in the post I replied to. What happened to it being fine?
Seeing as how I've already told you why I'm not interested in answering yr list of questions, that yr going on and on and on about it still just shows me yr just hounding me out of annoyance value. I've already answered the question where you asked me my opinion of what Hamas did, got told by you that what I said wasn't enough, and then get bombarded with a list of other questions. And you might want to go reread what I said to you about how it's rather silly to expect that others be as interested in the same things you are....

And, no. I don't think I've ever behaved this way towards you. Given yr ability to drag up posts of mine that are years old, if I've ever hounded you repeatedly to answer a barrage of questions about something I've already said I'm not knowledgable enough about, please show me where....

I believe you're either severely lacking in perception or are intent on being annoying. Can't be the former, as you hit on the reason in yr previous post as to why I'm no longer interested in playing yr Q&A session, so it's got to be the latter. It's kind of annoying in the same way as it was when my daughter was a toddler and used to follow me round asking 'why?' repeatedly to whatever I said after her initial question until I got sick of it and stopped playing.....
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-20-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. The difference is, the Democratic party is an institution deserving of respect
Edited on Thu Aug-20-09 02:09 PM by Ken Burch
How much respect does the IDF deserve these days? It's clearly abandoned any humane values, any notions of applying morality to its conduct, and has reduced itself to the Vince Lombardi "winning is anything" mindset. Why are they deserving of ANY respect? And is there any chance they'll ever change?

It's time to admit peace through crushing the Palestinians(or even through crushing Hamas)is impossible. It's time to admit that the Palestinians can't be made to accept anything that looks like surrender.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-20-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I don't respect the KKK, but I still call them that
I don't understand what respect has to do with anything.

As to your other comment, I don't know that anything anyone has done has led to peace. There definitely needs to be a new approach from all sides.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-20-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. What difference does it make that they call it the IOF rather than the IDF?
Edited on Thu Aug-20-09 01:33 PM by Ken Burch
You can't honestly expect any Palestinian to accept that what the IDF does is in self-defense. If you were Palestinian, you wouldn't.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-20-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Makes no difference to me
They can make up whatever names they want for whatever entities they want. People can draw whatever conclusions they want to draw from those name-changes.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-20-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Than why were you going on and on about it with Violet?
To call the IDF by the name it calls itself would be to endorse the Occupation.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-20-09 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. That is a ridiculous statement
To call Hamas by the name it calls itself does not mean you are endorsing terrorism, does it?

Does calling the KKK by the name it calls itself mean you are endorsing racism?

As to the discussion with the other poster you mentioned, I guess I just wanted to clarify something that appeared unclear.

Personally I would have been much more interested in actually having a discussion about the incident that the PCHR is reporting about in the OP but no one seems to have anything to say about it.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. No-one's stopping you from talking about the OP.
I just hope everyone has as much to say about it as you generally have to say when it comes to incidents involving the IDF that human rights organisations report on. That'd be a blink and miss it moment!
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. I would love to hear other perspectives and points of view besides my own
Edited on Fri Aug-21-09 03:39 AM by oberliner
That is one of the reasons why I post articles on a public forum such as this one.

Just responding to my own original post with my own thoughts on it without anyone else's engagement in the topic would seem a tad self-centered.

Personally, I find this incident to be one of the most significant developments regarding Hamas since they took control of Gaza.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. There's nothing stopping you saying what yr opinion is...
I notice that you haven't done that, and it doesn't take multiple posts to do so...just one. Sorry, but just because you find something absolutely fascinating doesn't mean that other people do. The way you asked me my opinion, and after I'd given it, then went on to tell me I hadn't said enough, is coming across as just a bit rude and pushy...
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. It's always sad when children are killed
The whole episode appears to have been badly mishandled. I think the consequences of this incident will be deeply felt and I worry not only about what it reflects (note the OP on "extremism" that I posted here a few days ago) but also what it might presage.
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Alamuti Lotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-18-09 05:14 AM
Response to Original message
7. the group should rename itself "Dahlan's Revenge"
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