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henank Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 09:13 AM
Original message
Jenin orchestra shut down after playing for survivors
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3693859,00.ht...

Palestinian official explains youth orchestra disbanded because it played for Holocaust survivors in Israel; refers to Holocaust as 'political issue'

Jenin refugee camp official Adnan Hindi says the 13-member Strings of Freedom orchestra should not have played for the survivors, calling the Holocaust "a political issue."

Hindi added Sunday that the conductor has also been barred from entering the camp.

Conductor Wafa Younis says she was not informed of the ban.

The orchestra performed a goodwill concert for elderly survivors in the Israeli town of Holon Wednesday.


Absolutely pathetic.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. Sigh
an effort to build a bridge--destroyed by the Palestinians this time. Any way we could send the radicals on both sides out to the desert to duke it out and let the ordinary Palestinian and Israeli live together in peace?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I agree wiith you
Edited on Sun Mar-29-09 09:58 AM by LeftishBrit
I wish the extremists would fight each other if they must and leave others alone.
The world needs more people like Wafa Younis and the orchestra memembers, and fewer like the hardline authorities.

Just as it needs more Daniel Bahrenboims and fewer Avigdor Liebermans.

All very sad.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
3. I know I have the minority view here...
Edited on Sun Mar-29-09 09:49 AM by ProgressiveMuslim
but when I read the original story, I felt a little sick. I didn't post on the orignal thread, preferring to keep my negative view to myself.

Would you have felt positively if little black South Africans were pulled out of Soweto to play for elderly Afrikaners? 2 months after the Afrikaner gov't massacred hundres of black South African children?

The paralles are endless and I won't make them here.

From the NYT: "Debating the rights and wrongs of the conflict among themselves, some of the elderly Israelis commented that the Palestinian musicians were 'only children' and were not to blame."

Wow. How generous of them.

From the CSMonitor: "They have a difficult past and we have a difficult past," says Keren Naiomi, a native of Poland who lost her entire family at the age of 5 and then was sent to a concentration camp. "They're from a refugee camp and we're from a concentration camp." For many of the Palestinian young people, who come from a neighborhood that was leveled by an Israeli invasion seven years ago, the rare permits to cross legally into Israel stirred excitement first and foremost mostly about their first visit to the beach and to the land that their grandparents and parents called home before Israel was created in 1948.

One big difference is that the Palestinians had to return to the camp after they entertained.

Blech.





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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Utter nonsense.
Edited on Sun Mar-29-09 11:35 AM by ProgressiveMuslim
My objecting to children being used in this manner has nothing to do with hatred.

Give up your vendatta, Cali. It's unbecoming.

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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Yet there is only one way to overcome hate
and that is by forgiveness. It doesn't come easy, and it is a continual practice, but it can be done. As for the elderly Jews (or elderly Afrikaaners, for that matter)--do we know they were part of the government who caused all these problems? Were they settlers illegally occupying Palestinian lands? If so, I could better understand why they shouldn't have played. But if they were not--these are aged people, cannot we show some compassion?

The late head of my Sufi Order, Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan, had a sister who was part of the French Resistance during WWII. She was captured, tortured, and burned alive by the Nazis at Dachau. Pir said it was a continuing part of his daily practice to try and forgive those who did this to his beloved sister. In doing so, he did not turn his back on the German people, and was able, after some years, to forgive the Nazi guards who had treated his sister so badly. This was needed, he said, not for them but for his own soul so that it could be at peace.

So the souls of the Palestinian and the Israeli peoples also need this peace, which can only be found through forgiveness.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Are you asking the children of Jenin, flattened 7 years ago, to forgive??
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. The point is here, it isn't the children who refused to play for the Israelis
It is the authorities who refused to allow them to do so, and punished them by dissolving the orchestra.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Do you think Palestinian children are like American children?
Edited on Sun Mar-29-09 12:01 PM by ProgressiveMuslim
LOL LB... Even if they understood the political implications I'm sure they felt they had the right to decline.

I'm sure they were relieved to get the F*** out of Jenin for once. Perhaps they even got sweets.

Makes it all the more upsetting.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. The group has played in Israel several times before
Please note that the group has played in Haifa three times before and that the reason given for shutting them down was specifically related to the "political" component of playing for a group of Holocaust survivors.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. I found this quote from a survivor very telling...
Glickman, whose family moved to the newly created Jewish state in 1949 after fleeing to Siberia to escape the Nazis, said she had no illusions the encounter would make the children understand the Holocaust. But she said it might make a small difference.

http://www.canadiandimension.com/blog/2009/03/palestini... /

I'm really just floored.

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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. I have no idea what you are reacting to in that quote
The rest of her remarks:

They think we are strangers, because we came from abroad, Glickman said. I agree: Its their land, also. But there was no other option for us after the Holocaust.

Her remarks seem like pretty reasonable statements to me.

What is objectionable in the part of the quote you cited?
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Asl though the onus of understanding in that situation... where those mature adults
are part of a society that has oppressed these children from birth... as though the onus to understand is on mere CHILDREN!


If they understand then what? They understand why they are supposed to live without rights for the rest of their lives? Understand why the world is content to sit with their thumbs up their asses while yet ANOTHER generation of Palestinians grows up has half-humans?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. You don't think young Palestinians should learn about the Holocaust?
I'm not sure how being ignorant of that major historic tragedy would be preferable to being aware of it. Especially considering the relationship between that event and the history of the region.

Many Palestinians have a solid understanding about the Holocaust but certainly do not take that understanding to mean that they are supposed to live without rights.

Whatever vision you have for an eventual peaceful resolution to this conflict, I think that Israelis and Palestinians would be wise to learn as much about one another as possible. This would go a long ways towards making that eventual peace real and lasting in my opinion.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. Don't you think adult Jews in Israel should learn about the reality of their occupation?
I sure do. They should know where their tax dollars go, and what their government's policies mean for those whom they oppress.

I certainly think the Holocaust should be taught. And I believe it is taught. Every Palestinian I have ever met certainly knows about it.

I don't think Palestinian children should be trotted out to entertain Jewish Israelis in the situation described.. I think it's inappropriate for all the reasons I stated.

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #48
63. Of course they should. But why do you assume that this concert works against that goal?
The Holocaust happened. There was never any excuse for the Palestinian movement to tolerate Holocaust denial within its ranks, and there's no excuse for the comment of the Jenin camp official's comment that the Holocaust is "political".

It is not political. It is reality.

It's enough for Palestinians to say that they are blameless for the Holocaust and that it does not justify what's been done to them. Do you understand the difference?

This concert did no harm to the Palestinian cause whatsoever, and the orchestra did the concert of their own free will. It's not about "trotting them out".
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #36
64. Yes, Israel has oppressed the Palestinians. This concert wasn't part of the oppression.
Why can you not accept that the orchestra took part of their own free will?

How could anyone deserve to be punished for it?
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #64
123. Ken , you do not have all the facts.
Those children did not know what their publicity-seeking director had planned.

I am going to double post something I wrote below, that I think you missed.

Let me be clear: I am a 100% believer in the value of the arts for building bridges.
In my own personal life, my family is HUGELY involved in an Arab-American arts and culture organization that teaches kids traditional art forms, performs, presents major artists, opens stuff to the local community and schools.

I've seen local non-Arab kids playing Arab instruments with joy, and know those kids will never have an knee-jerk negative reaction to Arabs or Arab culture. I believe in the value of that totally. I devote signicant time and financial support to it!

But there is a HUGE difference between what we do, and what that director had those kids do.

There is nothing mutual about that exchange. There can be no mutuality in this situation that is fraught with the power dynamics of occupation. Those children who performed for that Israeli audience are denied many human rights and EVERY basic political right by the elected representatives of that audience. There is nothing mutual about a situation in which any of those kids could have been hauled off to prison at any time... stripped searched at checkpoints, etc. Those kids performed and then returned to their prison.

Can you please explain the value in that? It's not the job of Palestinian children to educate adult Israelis that they too are human beings.

Secondly, neither the kids nor their parents knew what the director had planned. Those kids did not receive all the info and make a choice. And guess what, kids in Arab culture don't get to make choices like that anyway.


At the end of the day, the dividing line on this seems to be those who support cultural and academic boycotts and those who don't. I think having exhchanges like that, within the context of Israel's ongoing occupation, creates a false sense of OK-ness. I don't support it.

The problem, Ken, isn't with the Israeli gov't of today... the problem is what happened in 1947 and what has happened under every single gov't since 1967.

Whether individual Israelis, survivors or not, bear responsibility for the actions of their elected governments is another question. YOu and I may feel differently about individual moral agency. I will try to address your other post re: that.

I think the other dividing line on this issue is how people feel peace will come about: I think those who believe peace will bubble up from the ground, ie., enough individual Palestinians and Israelis feel positively about the other that they finally begin to exert a little pressure and demand peace... (or something like that) would support these actions.

I don't see it that way at all.

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #28
61. You would agree that Palestinian children and the whole Palestinian movement
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 01:01 AM by Ken Burch
need to understand what happened to Jews in Germany, wouldn't you?

This concert did NOT oppress those children. And you have no right to treat the elderly survivors of the Shoah as if they, themselves, are oppressors. They didn't kill the children of Jenin. They're just old age pensioners.

They bear no responsibility for what the Israeli government and the IDF does. They are innocent victims.

And the Palestinian community need to wipe out any semblance of Holocaust denial in your movement. It happened, it needs to be remembered. It's enough for you to say that it doesn't justify what was done to Palestinians, since Palestinians didn't commit the Holocaust.

Please don't fall into this trap, PM. You're a better person than this.

There's no way that this concert harmed the Palestinian cause.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
30. Yes
I didn't say it was easy. Do you think it was easy for Pir Vilayat to forgive those who tortured and murdered his beloved sister? The ONLY way to stop hate is through forgiveness. The Prophet Isa said that you should forgive your enemies not seven times, but seventy times seven. And what does the Qur'an call Allah but "oft forgiving and most merciful"?


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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
49. As with any abuser, forgiveness absent of repentance is pointless, don't you think?
Edited on Sun Mar-29-09 09:15 PM by ProgressiveMuslim
That's what I learned in theological seminary, anyway.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #49
93. No
because the forgiveness is to help yourself. That is what you are not getting. But that is your path, so I will let you go on your way.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #93
124. Do you expect sexually abused children to forgive their abusers while the crimes are ongoing?
That's insane.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
60. You know those elderly people themselves bear no blame for what was done to Jenin
You're making a HUGE mistake with the stand you're taking here.

This concert was a voluntary choice by the orchestra themselves, and there's no way it did the Palestinian cause any possible harm.

The problem is the Israeli government of today, not elderly survivors of the Shoah.

Please don't go there with this, Progressive.

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
62. Doing this concert does NOT mean forgiving what was done to the children of Jenin
It means admitting that these elderly people suffered, as the Palestinians have suffered.

You can't blame the Holocaust survivors for the Jenin atrocity.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. "One big difference is that the Palestinians had to return to the camp after they entertained."
Yes, indeed the children do go back to the camp, and that is exactly why imho, the contact and exchange between the two groups is valuable on many levels. The more human each side views the other to be, the harder it becomes for corrupt political leaders to convince their constituents otherwise.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Strongly agree
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. How sad if a group of kids, who don't even know what's what -- have to be paraded in front
of a bunch of adults in order for the grown-ups to see them as human beings.

Talk about pathetic.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. Well again, what you are characterizing as pathetic is another reason
why it would be valuable. We don't know that the elders who attend are even the ones that might need to be persuaded, as perhaps the hardliners would not even consider hearing the children play music for them. It is that population and the ones that decided the children should not play I find pathetic and very sad. With that decision, any benefit that could take place is denied and the reason given sends a terrible message, that the Holocaust is a political issue??

I say listen to the young and don't be afraid they will get it wrong, and the give the old who have suffered a chance to learn from each other.

"I feel sympathy for them," Ali Zeid, an 18-year-old keyboard player said after the concert. He said he was shocked by what he learned about the Holocaust, in which the Nazis killed 6 million Jews in their campaign to wipe out European Jewry.

"Only people who have been through suffering understand each other," added Zeid, who said his grandparents were Palestinian refugees forced to flee the northern city of Haifa during the war that followed Israel's creation in 1948."

Who could not love this kid!





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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #16
117. Yes it is so touching and sweet
"I feel sympathy for them," Ali Zeid, an 18-year-old keyboard player said after the concert. He said he was shocked by what he learned about the Holocaust, in which the Nazis killed 6 million Jews in their campaign to wipe out European Jewry.

"Only people who have been through suffering understand each other," added Zeid, who said his grandparents were Palestinian refugees forced to flee the northern city of Haifa during the war that followed Israel's creation in 1948."


But tell me this what happens when the light bulb goes off in Ali's head and he realizes that some of these same people may have been amongst the ones that forced his grandparents from their home?
Perhaps Ali will feel a little used, don't you think, or will Ali now understand why it was supposedly necessary for his grandparents to be expelled from their home?
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #117
119. The boys words are much more than sweet and dear of heart.
For his age, he is a very wise and good child, as his intellect is very sharp, he says,
"Only people who have been through suffering understand each other.."

I am not sure why you presume the light bulb, as you phrased it, hasn't already gone off. Imo, the kid gets it.

I don't think it is impossible that he may at some point feel exploited but I do believe that is unlikely from what we know he has said, his own words. He walks into the situation carrying the moral high ground and leaves the same or higher, regardless of what transpires afterward.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #119
121. The kid gets part of it
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 10:58 PM by azurnoir
I see nothing wrong with him acknowledging the Holocaust or the suffering of those who experienced it, but his statement shows he has not yet figured out that some of those victims were also the ones that expelled his grandparents or should he also be acknowledging that his grandparents somehow deserved it as some here claim frequently?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. "I'm here to raise spirits," Younis said. "These are poor, old people."
It saddens me that you see this simply as a group of kids being paraded in front of a group of adults.

Young people brought an hour of joy to senior citizens by playing music for them.

Isn't that a positive thing?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Tell that to the IDF!
Edited on Sun Mar-29-09 01:03 PM by IndianaGreen
The IDF didn't give a rat's ass about incinerating or flattening homes in which there were children and "poor, old people."

Had an impartial DUer posted what you did, I would have certainly found common ground and empathy with him or her, but it is a different matter altogether to read this stuff when it comes from posters that do not criticize the existence of Jewish settlements in Palestine.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Huh?
I'm completely against the settlements and think they should be disbanded.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. The contact and exchange is useless within the context of the Occupation
and having the children return to camp after their performance raises so many analogies to similar incidents in history in which the oppressed was send back to their camps after entertaining the oppressors.

Holocaust survivors should be at the forefront in opposition to the Occupation of Palestine for they have been at the receiving end of racist policies, just as Palestinians find themselves today.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. I disagree that the exchange is useless, the fact that the children
Edited on Sun Mar-29-09 02:15 PM by Jefferson23
return to camp after the performance is what makes this a powerful opportunity, the imagery is riveting or should be and possibly could be by the elders, if given the chance. ALL children are beautiful human beings, ALL deserve to be treated as such, and the contact may have some rethink their support of the occupation. Of course, I agree with you that the Holocaust survivors should be at the forefront, they should in fact be weeping for these children! And perhaps one day more will, but continue to control the contact, the less likely you will see that result.

The benefit for the children is already evident from the statements the young man made himself. I do not see that he nor the group are being exploited, quite the contrary. The children seem to know instinctively that they are on the moral high ground at the very least, as being able to recognize and sympathize with the oppressor even if the oppressor can't afford you the same. That takes great strength, a quality I would hope those listening to them play their music would recognize.

Consider this too, I wonder how many Palestinian children are even aware of the treatment by those who govern Israel has been like to the survivors of the Holocaust, it has not always been a pretty picture. Point being, corrupt leadership knows no bounds, despite what their rhetoric claims.

*edited for clarity.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. It is truly shocking.
It really amazes me that people can think so differently about this.
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Sezu Donating Member (920 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #29
45. Interesting narcissism on your part. n/t
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Less interesting to me. But then, I'm used to it.
:boring:
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #45
68. Uninteresting meaningless statement of derision on yours.
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 01:31 AM by Ken Burch
Anytime you actually want to make a substantive point on anything, we'd all love to hear it.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #19
65. I agree that the kids should not have had to go back to the camp
Still, why punish the kids for doing the concert?

And what the hell did that camp official mean by saying that the Holocaust was "political"?

There are some deniers in the Palestinian camp and frankly they ought to be wheeled out and shot as traitors to the cause. Every time they open their mouths they give the IDF and the Israeli right the gift that keeps on giving.

True revolutionary discipline would mean making sure no one said things like that.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #65
78. They think the Holocaust is "political"
because most don't believe the Holocaust even happened.

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #78
84. I really doubt that it's "most".
A stubborn minority, one that really doesn't speak for more Palestinians, more likely.

No need to get excessive with the assumption.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. I don't know the number or percentage of Arab/Palestinian Holocaust deniers
but perhaps most is hyperbole.

Let's say "many".
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #85
91. Let's not say 'many'. Let's say you have no idea...n/t
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #91
96. Of course it is many (many, many, in fact)
you only need to do an itsy bit of research to prove how many Arab/Muslim Holocaust deniers there really are.

I am sure you are interested in expanding your thinking, Violet.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #96
99. Veggie: 'I don't know the number or percentage of Arab/Palestinian Holocaust deniers'
So you were lying when you said you don't know how many there are?

Sheez, if there's a way of you slagging off the Palestinian people, you never miss a chance, do you?
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #99
101. I am sure you will be happy to read my post about all the many deniers
Please do educate yourself dear Violet.

It will make your posting much easier to read.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #101
103. Clearly yr having problems reading my posts...
Though the problem's clearly not on my part, as no-one else struggles the way you do. What you posted had nothing about the numbers of Palestinians, which makes yr post saying you don't know how many but then went on to say 'many' a contradictory load of rubbish...
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #99
106. I said MANY, many Arabs and Palestinians are Holocaust deniers
and MANY are.

Sometimes you are beyond obtuse.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #106
109. You said you didn't know how many...
...but not knowing anything hasn't stopped you in the past when it comes to yr obsessive hatred of all things Palestinian and Arab.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #109
110. I don't hate anyone but liars and hypocrites
so quit your putting words in my mouth,

I think it is against forum rules too, so just stop now.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #110
113. A self-hating liar?
I didn't put any words in yr mouth. Yr own posts in this forum are all that's needed to see yr feelings about Arabs and Palestinians.

btw, don't sit there and whine about the forum rules when you called PM a hater in yr first or second post and continually break the rules yrself.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #113
115. Yr right violet, what can I say? Yr right!
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #91
98. Here, I will make it easy for you
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 08:27 AM by Vegasaurus
http://www.adl.org/Holocaust/Denial_ME/default.asp

http://www.adl.org/Holocaust/Denial_ME/in_own_words.asp

"Jews haved "profited... from the talk about the Nazi killings"

On August 25, 1997, a Palestinian Authority cultural affairs television program featured an interview with Hassan al-Agha, a Palestinian author and professor at the Islamic University in Gaza City:

Moderator: It is well known that every year the Jews exaggerate what the Nazis did to them. They claim there were six million killed, but precise scientific research demonstrates that there were no more than 400,000. Has the complex which the Jews have as a result of the Nazis' actions created within them psychological burdens which they are now releasing against the Palestinians?

Al-Agha: The truth is I do not think so. Psychological baggage after forty or fifty years.I am skeptical.But I do think that we are talking about an investment. They have profited materially, spiritually, politically and economically from the talk about the Nazi killings. This investment is favorable to them and they view it as a profitable activity so they inflate the number of victims all the time. In another ten years, I do not know what number they will reachAs you know, when it comes to economics and investments, the Jews have been very experienced ever since the days of the Merchant of Venice.

David Bar-Ilan, a spokesman for then Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, released the transcript of the program to Western reporters, who covered the incident in English media. Several days later Radwan Abu Ayash, head of the Palestinian Broadcast Corporation, announced that Al-Agha's remarks did not reflect the opinion of the Palestinian Authority, but defended them as "freedom of expression."

"Israel prospers and exists by right of the Holocaust lie"

"Israel prospers and exists by right of the Holocaust lie and the Israeli government's policy of intentional exaggerationthe glue which holds the Jews together is the preservation of the memory of the Holocaust and the thousands of Jews who were destroyed in it"

Lebanese writer and politician Dr. Issam Naaman,
writing in the London Arab newspaper Al-Quds Al-Arabi.
April 22, 1998
(translated by the Antisemitism Monitoring Forum)

"There is no proof at all..."

"The entire Jewish State is built on the great Holocaust lie. . . What is the proof that Hitler and the Nazis murdered six million Jews in gas chambers? There is no proof at all, except for the conflicting testimonies of a few Jewish 'survivors.' If six million Jews had been burned, mountains of ashes would have been created, but we have never heard of this. There are also no ovens that are capable of burning millions without someone noticing the smell. There is no proof that such a number of Jews lived in Germany in the 1930s. Their number was less than four million and half of them fled to the Soviet Union during the war.

"Hitler did not kill the Jews because they were Jews, but rather because they betrayed Germany. In any case, he murdered 300,000 Jews and that is the real number that he killed. At this opportunity mention should be made of the fact that the Jewish State murdered a larger number of Palestinians and Arabs over fifty years. The Holocaust is not what happened to the Jews in Germany, but rather the crime of the establishment of the State of Israel on the ruins of the Palestinian people."

Mahmoud Al-Khatib,
writing in the Jordanian newspaper Al-Arab Al-Yom
April 27, 1998
(translated by the Antisemitism Monitoring Forum)

The Holocaust is a "tissue of lies"

"The Catholic Church in particular and the church in general should not be made to apologize to the Zionists and Jews for the Hitlerian legend a tissue of lies, as has been revealed by Western scientists, and it is being used to blackmail the world."

Sheikh Mohammad Mehdi Shamseddin,
head of Lebanon's Shiite Council,
Reported by the Agence France-Presse, March 22, 1998.
He was responding to the Vatican's release of "We Remember: A Reflection on the Shoah," a document that accepted the culpability of some Christians for the perpetration of the Holocaust.

"The truth is that such persecution was a malicious fabrication by the Jews."

"Everywhere, the Jews have been the subjects of hatred and disdain because they control most of the economic resources upon which the livelihoods of many people are dependent. The clearest example of this is Shakespeare's play The Merchant of Venice, in which the merchant Shylock represents the image of the greedy, cunning, evil, and despised Jews. And yet, how have the Jews succeeded in brainwashing American and European public opinion and changing the image of the Jew to that of a wise, brave, ingenious and creative person to whom the world's eyes are turned?

"There is no alternative but to say that the success of the Jews is not coincidental but rather the result of long years of planning and a great investment of effort in order to obtain their wretched control over the world's media.When Nazi persecutions of the Jews began, the winds began blowing in their favor. What Hitler did to the Jews actually exposed the Jewish plot. World public opinion, manipulated by the Jews, took advantages of these , disseminating stories about a collective massacre. They concocted horrible stories of gas chambers which Hitler, they claimed used to burn them alive. The press overflowed with pictures of Jews being gunned down by Hitler's machine guns or being pushed into gas chambers. The focused on women, children and elderly people in order to rouse empathy and claim reparations, donations, and grants from around the world.

"The truth is that such persecution was a malicious fabrication by the Jews. It is a myth which they named 'The Holocaust' in order to rouse empathy. Credible historians challenge this Jewish , calling for persuasive evidence to be presented. The Los Angeles Historical Society declared that it would grant US$50,000 to anyone who could prove Jews had been gassed to death. Jews exerted intense pressure and cast accusations of anti-Semitism everywhere in order to silence this challenge. Even if Hitler's onslaught facilitated the persecution of Jews to some degree, Jews certainly benefited from its aftermath"

from "Jewish Control of the World Media" by Seif `Ali Al-Jarwan,
writing in the Palestinian newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadidah.
July 2, 1998
(translated by MEMRI)

"The Holocaust is a great lie ... to lead the world astray"

"Most research prepared by objective researchers in connection with what is called the Jewish Holocaust has proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Holocaust is a great lie and a myth that the Zionist mind spread in order to lead the world astray"

from "Their Holocaust and Our Cemetery," in the Jordanian newspaper Al-Arab Al-Yom.
July 4, 1998
(translated by the Antisemitism Monitoring Forum)

"The Holocaust is an Israeli myth ... to blackmail the world."

"The Jews invented the myth of mass extermination and the fabrication that 6 million Jews were put to death in Nazi ovens. This was done with the aim of motivating the Jews to emigrate to Israel and to blackmail the Germans for money as well as to achieve world support for the Jews. Similarly, Zionism based itself on this myth to establish the State of Israel.I continue to believe that the Holocaust is an Israeli myth which was invented to blackmail the world."

from "The Holocaust, Netanyahu and Me,"
in the Egyptian newspaper Al-Akhbar,
September 25, 1998
(translated by the Antisemitism Monitoring Forum.)

"Jewish officers served in the Nazi command, among whom several were close to Hitler"

"The campaign of Jewish blackmail began in Switzerland and later extended to Germany, Romania and other Western countries. This raises many legitimate doubts concerning everything connected with the myth of the Nazi ovens used for the destruction of the Jews. Many authors and researchers around the world have concluded that all the stories about this matter were exaggerated and fabricated, since many Jewish officers served in the Nazi command, among whom several were close to Hitler. It is therefore impossible that any nation in the world would be compelled to pay reparations to fictitious victims of dubious tragedies..."

Damascus Radio, November 7, 1998
(translated by the Antisemitism Monitoring Forum)

Yad Vashem: "Eternalizing the Holocaust and the lies."

Clue: Jewish center for eternalizing the Holocaust and the lies.
Answer: Yad Vashem (the official Israeli Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem)

From the February 18, 1999,
Crossword puzzle of PA newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida.
(translated by USA Today, April 4, 2001)

"Zionism ... invents stories regarding the Nazi Holocaust in which the Jews suffered and inflates them to astronomic proportions"

"Zionism hides the dark chapters of its black history. It invents stories regarding the Nazi Holocaust in which the Jews suffered and inflates them to astronomic proportions..."

"The problem is not in the Zionist ambition to forge history, but rather in the Zionist organizations' ambitions to revive their distorted version of history and use it to deceive international public opinion, win its empathy, and blackmail it."

"Israel and the Zionist organizations strive for two goals: first, to be granted more funds from Germany and European states and institutions; second, they want to use the legend of the Holocaust as a sword hanging over the necks of all those who oppose Zionism who are accused of anti-Semitism. "

"The Zionists try to strangle any voice that reveals the truth... However, these voices and other such voices have already left their marks on European public opinion and media who have started to raise questions that refresh the memory and establish the truth that was distorted by the Zionists."

"This stream has cast fear in the hearts of the Zionist movement that quickly convened a conference on the Holocaust in Stockholm in order to turn the Zionist lies into common knowledge...."

"The Zionist effort does not stop at paralyzing human memory, it also tries to shatter logic and distort reality. Israel, that presents itself as the heir of Holocaust victims, has committed and still commits much more terrible crimes than those committed by the Nazis. The Nazis did not expel a whole nation nor buried people and prisoners alive, as the Zionists did."

From "The Plague of the Third Millennium,"
by editor Muhammad Kheir al-Wadi,
Teshreen (Syria's leading daily newspaper), January 31, 2000
(translated by various news agencies)
"The number of 6 million is exaggerated."

"There have been many massacres in the world. Why is this Holocaust in particular more important?.When it comes to our cause, nobody pays attention - whether it is the Crusader massacres against Muslims or the massacres against Palestinians committed by Israelis. And we don't keep using and using these massacres to remind the world what we are owed."

"I never deny that the Holocaust happened, but we believe the number of 6 million is exaggerated. The Jews are using this issue, in many ways, also to blackmail the Germans financially. The Holocaust is the reason that there isn't a bigger noise against Israel as an occupying force. The Holocaust is protecting Israel."

"It's certainly not our fault if Hitler hated the Jews. Weren't they hated pretty much everywhere?"

Sheik Ikrima Sabri, Mufti of Jerusalem
The New York Times, March 26, 2000

The Holocaust: "one of the greatest frauds of the 20th century."

A conservative Iranian newspaper insisted Sunday it had proved the Holocaust was a "fraud" after a British MP reportedly protested the paper's articles about the World War II genocide.

The Tehran Times said its "thorough research" had "proved that the issue of (the) Holocaust is nothing but a fraud" and said it was "determined to reveal the facts... in order to defuse the plots of the Zionists."

Citing the official IRNA news agency, it said British MP Louise Ellman had filed a complaint with Iran's ambassador to London, Gholamreza Ansari, about a recent editorial in the paper which said the Holocaust was "one of the greatest frauds of the 20th century."

The paper said Sunday that Israel, using the Holocaust and "similar excuses," had "made the West their hostage to blackmail the governments in that part of the world."

Agence France-Presse, May 14, 2000

Zionists had close relations with German Nazis and exaggerated statistics on Jewish killings

"There is evidence which shows that Zionists had close relations with German Nazis and exaggerated statistics on Jewish killings. There is even evidence on hand that a large number of non-Jewish hooligans and thugs of Eastern Europe were forced to migrate to Palestine as Jews. The purpose was to install in the heart of the Islamic world an anti-Islamic state under the guise of supporting the victims of racism and to create a rift between the East and the West of the Islamic world."

Iranian leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei
The Jerusalem Post, April 25, 200"
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #98
100. Didn't quite catch the numbers there, Veggie...
btw, posting something related to genocide from a bunch who deny the Armenian genocide is a bit on the off side...
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #100
102. Do you deny these quotes?
They are well documented.

Go for the education, Violet. Try it.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #102
104. Do you bother reading any response to you?
Go back and read it and address what I said. How did that show the numbers of palestinians? It didn't...

Education? You can always teach me. I've been hankering to froth at the mouth and talk hateful and bigoted shit about Palestinian people the way you do for a while now...
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #104
105. I said many, many Arabs and Palestinians are Holocaust deniers
it is well documented.

I am not counting the numbers for you.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #105
107. And you provided no proof of that....
And as you also think some pretty damn nasty things about Arabs and Palestinians, as evidenced in yr past 'contributions' to this forum, I think yr post where you said you didn't know was the only thing that was true...
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #107
108. Of course there was proof
in many quotes (which you won't bother to read, but that isn't my problem).
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #108
111. No there was no proof....
I read the quotes. Nowhere did it prove yr claim that MANY MANY Palestinians are Holocaust deniers...
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #111
112. Ok, Violet, if that helps you sleep at night!
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #112
114. Nothing to do with sleep. I'm just pointing out the bleeding obvious...n/t
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #65
126. Ken, I don't think the critics mean the Hologcaust is political, but rather that the way the
kids were used was political. With that I completely agree.

Interestingly, there has been very little written about this event IN PALESTINE.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #19
92. so... arrogant
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 07:46 AM by Shaktimaan
Holocaust survivors should be at the forefront in opposition to the Occupation of Palestine for they have been at the receiving end of racist policies, just as Palestinians find themselves today.

I always find it interesting how some people can so easily recommend exactly how someone else should interpret an experience they had, regardless of whether said person has had any similar experiences himself.

Do you realize how it sounds when you tell Holocaust survivors how they should feel and what they should be doing as a result of their experiences as survivors? You are assuming that the Holocaust survivors should draw a parallel between their experience and what the Palestinians are going through now, which is not only a very offensive parallel to voice, but considering that you are neither Palestinian, Israeli, a Holocaust survivor or anything else remotely related to the subject at hand, it is also unbelievably arrogant.

I mean... REALLY! Holocaust survivors should be... I'm sorry that so many Holocaust survivors are not interpreting or acting on their past horror to your exacting specifications. Perhaps you should write an op-ed or something explaining what they're doing wrong. I'm sure they'll appreciate your knowledgeable input.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #92
94. so,,,,hypocritical...
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 08:14 AM by Violet_Crumble
I've noticed in the past you have no problems at all interpreting Palestinians experiences and telling them how they should feel and act...

And it's in no way an exacting specification to think that Holocaust survivors (many of who were children during the Holocaust) could relate to other people who have suffered from oppression, no matter who they are or where they are. I've seen some speak out against the Occupation (something which must appall you), amongst voicing support for other victims of oppression.

but considering that you are neither Palestinian, Israeli, a Holocaust survivor or anything else remotely related to the subject at hand,

Here's a hint. It helps to read posts in the forum before opening mouth and inserting foot. Her family's Palestinian and she's lived there. So what was it you were saying about not being anything remotely related to the subject?
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #94
116. You think? well, let's see...
I've noticed in the past you have no problems at all interpreting Palestinians experiences and telling them how they should feel and act...

Bullshit. Give me an example.

And it's in no way an exacting specification to think that Holocaust survivors (many of who were children during the Holocaust) could relate to other people who have suffered from oppression, no matter who they are or where they are.

OK. But that's not at all what IG was saying. Had she said something like this I'd not taken issue with the post.

I've seen some speak out against the Occupation (something which must appall you),

How would you know? You have no idea what my personal views are on the subject.

Here's a hint. It helps to read posts in the forum before opening mouth and inserting foot. Her family's Palestinian and she's lived there. So what was it you were saying about not being anything remotely related to the subject?

IndianaGreen's family is Palestinian and she's lived there? I don't think so. Are you sure you aren't thinking of ProgressiveMuslim? But just to be on the safe side I'll wait for conformation before I begin making fun of you for the whole "here's a hint" and "insert foot" crap.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #116
125. Yeah, I think what yr saying is bullshit...
Just one example of where you've had absolutely no problem telling Palestinians how they should feel and act was in one of the threads about the Nakba I read, where you handed out advice about how Palestinians should feel and act if they wanted to be viewed as victims...

Actually, what IG was saying is not markedly different from what I said, which is why I didn't have any problem with what she said...

Of course you've made yr views on the Occupation clear. It's not like anyone has to guess. From insisting it's 'disputed territory' to claiming that only some settlements are illegal, to arguing more than once that Israel has some valid claim to the West Bank, it's all there...

Sorry for confusing IG and PM. It's hard to follow threads when they start to get long, but that doesn't make what you said any less wrong. IG's Jewish, so of course she has got a connection to the subject at hand....
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. So in the spirit of mutual exchange
Edited on Sun Mar-29-09 01:19 PM by azurnoir
are Israeli's other than IDF that is, or perhaps "leftists" visiting camps entertaining or otherwise contacting the people who live there? Has a group of elderly Holocaust survivors visited the camps?
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. What was mutual about this?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. The orchestra director herself requested permission to give this performance
Do you believe that folks on the Israeli side should have prevented the performance from taking place?

Had they done so, wouldn't people be criticizing the Israelis for denying the group this opportunity?

I'm not understanding what you think the Israelis should have done differently here.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. That's why it's being disbanded.
I really question the thinking of the leader. Dedicating a song to Gilad Shalit while THOUSANDS of Palestinians languish in Israeli prisons??? THUNK
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #37
69. Then it would have been enough to criticize the orchestra leader for that.
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 01:17 AM by Ken Burch
Why did these kids deserve to be denied what may be the only thing that keeps them going?

If they can't play anymore and then pick up the guns(which may well be what happens to them), they'll be making their lives meaningless. And short.

The kids did nothing wrong here. They didn't deserve losing the only thing they had to live for.

There's no possible way this decision helps the Palestinian cause.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #69
127. I agree that the group should be allowed to play, but that they DEFINITELY need new leadership.
Again, there is so little written about this in the Palestinian press... it's hard to have the POV from that side.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
118. Well that was kind of my point n/t
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. I am shocked and saddened by your views on this
I cannot wrap my mind around the idea that a Palestinian Youth Orchestra performing for a group of elderly Holocaust survivors would make you feel sick.

I do not see how you can talk on the one hand about the idea of a single democratic state where Israelis and Palestinians govern together sharing a single national identity while on the other hand feel sickened by even the most benign acts of kindness on the part of Palestinians towards Israeli senior citizens.

If there is to be any hope of lasting peace in the region, wouldn't it be a good idea to support any initiatives that help Isralis and Palestinians see one another as human beings rather than simply the enemy?
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Trotting out a group of children, to entertain the occupiers is inappropriate on every level.
I would hope that, of all people, holocaust survivors would not need to be enteratined by children from the camp a few miles away to recognize their humanity.

I would not hve such a strong reaction if this were a mutual exchange of adult artists (though I would still be against it in that at this time I support cultural boycotts).

Bottom line: There is nothing mutual about this. Do you think the kids had any idea what was even going on?

I don't believe it is the job of Palestinians to convince Jewish Israelis that they are human beings. It's undignified. If "peace" rests upon them doing this successfully, then there will never be peace.

I recognize I am in the minority on this issue, but I feel it is demeaning and inappropriate to use kids in this way. I have seen blog posts criticizing this very angrily... but I am going to good to see if I can find any reaction from Palestinian artists.

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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I can see why you feel as you do.
Can you just give a few seconds to put yourself in the shoes of someone from Palestine, to see how that might feel?
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GoesTo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. Collaboration, Appeasement, Kow Tow, Prostration, Capitulation
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. Something not mentioned in the article
what kind of "security" searches were these kids being put through? Are we to believe that Palestinian youth as old as 17 were being allowed proximity to elderly Israeli's without being quite thoroughly searched first?
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henank Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. You consider that people living in Holon are occupiers?
Seriously? Have you ever looked at a map of Israel? Do you know where Holon actually is?

I would not hve such a strong reaction if this were a mutual exchange of adult artists (though I would still be against it in that at this time I support cultural boycotts).
You are against cultural exchanges of musicians? How do you think peace will ever arrive? What possible benefit could there be to banning cultural exchanges?

I don't believe it is the job of Palestinians to convince Jewish Israelis that they are human beings. It's undignified. If "peace" rests upon them doing this successfully, then there will never be peace.
If peace rests upon Israelis not inviting Palestinian youth to play music to them then what kind of peace are you imagining?

Seriously, my mind is boggling here. You are letting hate blind you to all reason.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Every citizen in Israel bears responsibility for the ongoing violent military institution.
Edited on Sun Mar-29-09 04:58 PM by ProgressiveMuslim
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #38
70. Even old age pensioners with numbers tattooed on their arms?
And why, again, are you assuming that this concert was coerced? Why can't you accept that these kids could have made this choice on their own?

The Palestinians need liberation. This concert did nothing to delay the day of that.

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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #38
80. I emphatically disagree with that...
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 06:11 AM by LeftishBrit
just as I emphatically disagree with the Israeli government's collective blame and punishment of all Gazans for terrorist attacks - and with ANY collective blame and punishment. You live in America - do you consider that you bear responsibility for Bush and Cheney and the Iraq war?

And '*every* citizen in Israel' - does that include Arab citizens?
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #80
90. I disagree. I belive that in a democracy all citizens are responsible for the actions of
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 07:36 AM by ProgressiveMuslim
their representatives. All adult citizens. Arabs, holocaust survivors, peaceniks, hawks, IDF members, reservists, journalists, doctors, lawyers.

And I hold the US to that same standard.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #90
120. do you hold Palestinians to that standard, in their "democracy"?
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #120
122. Unfortuantely, Israel has not allowed Palestine the luxury of a representative democracy.
Breathtakingly hypocritical, is is not?
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
35. Depends on the children and the Afrikaners, doesn't it?
I mean, why hold one set of elderly Afrikaners responsible for something that other Afrikaners do? We don't believe in collective guilt and punishment, do we?

Oh, wait. I guess I overlooked what your post entailed. I guess it's just one of those cultural differences.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Do you think those elderly Israelis bear no responsibility for Israel's ongoing occupation?
how do?
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #39
71. They may bear some responsibility(depending on what they themselves did back in the day
for what happened in 1948 or 1967. It's ludicrous to hold the elderly responsible for a massacre that occurred seven years ago.

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
59. That analogy SO doesn't work
1)The orchestra played VOLUNTARILY for the Holocaust survivors. They weren't forced to play by the IDF at gunpoint.
2)The idea of the concert was to say that Palestinians acknowledge
a)that the Holocaust did, in fact happened(I would assume that all decent Palestinians, like all decent people everywhere, would acknowledge this)

b)that Palestinians, as people who have suffered, stand in solidarity with others who have suffered.

I hope you aren't going to argue that the fact that the survivors are now Israeli somehow negates their suffering, or that this particular group of survivors is personally responsible for the Nakba. Those people may not even have been(originally at leasts)Zionists(most Jews weren't until at least 1948 and many not until 1967).

This concert was an attempt to bridge a gap that doesn't need to be there. There's never been a justification for Holocaust denial among those who back the Palestinian cause, any more than among any other group. You don't need to deny that Hitler tried to wipe out the Jews in order to make the point that Hitler's project DOES NOT justify what's been done to the Palestinians.

The concert was a good thing, and harmed no one. Why should anyone have been punished for it?
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
27. Hoping those who express their sadness will answer this question:
Would you have felt positively if little black South Africans were pulled out of Soweto to play for elderly Afrikaners? 2 months after the Afrikaner gov't massacred hundres of black South African children?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. If a Black South African youth orchestra conductor asked if his/her group could perform
for elderly White South Africans, you think he or she ought to have been denied the opportunity to do so?
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. OMG.
Edited on Sun Mar-29-09 05:12 PM by ProgressiveMuslim
Seriously?

How did you feel about Jews in camps playing for nazis? What if their leader asked for the opportunity?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Jews in camps playing for Nazis?
If you believe that the situation between Palestinians and Israelis is analogous to the situation between Jews and Nazis then you are not the reasonable person that I had previously thought you were.

That's what I get for going along with your SA analogy - you jump to Nazi Germany.

Let us look at what actually happened rather than engaging in "what-if-it-had-been" imperfect (to say the least) analogies.

A woman who conducts a youth orchestra in Jenin thought it would be nice if her young musicians performed for a group of Israeli senior citizens who had survived the Holocaust. The performance took place and both the elderly Israelis and the young Palestinians appeared to have viewed the experience as a positive one. I do not see that anyone suffered as a result of that performance.

Because of that concert, the conductor has been barred from working with the students and the orchestra apparently has been disbanded. This seems unfortunate to me.

After considering the point of view that you have presented, that remains my take on the situation.

I guess we are just going to have to leave it there.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. I guess so. Victims entertaining oppressors, in ANY situation, is inappropriate.
Edited on Sun Mar-29-09 09:07 PM by ProgressiveMuslim
It doesn't lead to peace... it leads to an illusion on the part of the oppressors.

Jenin could be flattened again tomorrow.

I don't equate the I/P situation with Nazis and Jews in Europe. I'm simply asking what you think about Jews entertaining their captors in that situation. I am curious as to whether or not you see any redeeming value in that.

I think it's wrong in any sort of master/slave -- captor/captive situation, be it in Nazi German, South Africa, Palestine, with the British Raj in India or anywhere.

I have no problem with face to face meetings or dialogue between Palestinians and Israeli Jews, but it shouldn't be Jewish adults and Palestinian kids. That just strikes me as inappropriate and unequal. But, that's pretty much the case with so much in this conflict.

I am just struck by how, time and again, Palestinians are supposed to demonstrate that they are human beings. That's a given for me; I just can't bring myself to cheerlead that as some kind of progress.

Shame on those oldsters for not already knowing!!
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
42. Why does it matter who stops the hatred first?
I think I can well understand your perspective on this, what I am hearing from you is a desire to protect the children, is that right? I would ask you to consider what we know what at least one child has said of the experience, do you believe he/they cannot distinguish between playing music for this group, communicating with this group, without the feeling that they are doing so on a submissive level?

I want to state, if I was not clear earlier, that I do not believe that these children have any obligation to do so. Yet, the opportunity has presented itself, I fail to see the damage that could take place, it appears from what we know, the opposite is true. I'm not trying to give you a hard time here, but sincerely just attempting to understand your perspective.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #42
51. The so-called "hatred" won't stop until the behavior that creates it stops.
End the occupation.
Make peace.
Have mutual arts exchanges.

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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. And nothing else in between is acceptable?
Edited on Sun Mar-29-09 09:22 PM by Jefferson23
Obviously, we disagree on this issue and I will end my comments here, I understand your concern to protect the children is sincere. I just don't think you are giving these children enough credit, for it appears they certainly saw the value of the endeavor.

"Only people who have been through suffering understand each other," added Zeid, who said his grandparents were Palestinian refugees forced to flee the northern city of Haifa during the war that followed Israel's creation in 1948."
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Truthfully, I think
their director is a publicity hound and used those kids to make her own statement and it infuriates me. Dedicating a song to Gilad Shalit, while THOUSANDS of Palestinians rot in jail? That is SO CLEARLY her own agenda. Those kids were used.

Those poor kids in Jenin have nothing. So they have this arts group to look forward to, to shine a little light on the day. They probably looked forward to that trip like you can't believe. You can't iamgine how utterly stifling it is to have never GONE ANYWHERE. I feel so sorry for those kids.

When I lived in Palestine, I taught 7 & 8th grade girls. You can't believe how different those children are. Innocent. Sweet. Obedient. Of course this was ten years ago, before the situation became so much harded. I would pull my car into the lot and have 10 girls rush up... "teacher! teacher!' They would take my 5 year old out of the car and carry her to the kindergartent... can you imagine American 7th or 8th graders acting that way? Those kids are INNOCENT. They were used.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. I said I would comment no more, but here I feel I must add one
thought.

IMHO, it IS that very pure innocence the children possess that may be the catalyst that shifts the mindset of the people who have an opportunity to see and hear them. If none are moved to do so, it is THEIR failure, not the children. The children do not lose, they maintain the higher moral authority they had going into this despite whether or not the director had an agenda. And I believe from what the boy has said, they have the intellect as well as the pure of heart to decipher those distinctions.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #54
73. "Those poor kids in Jenin have nothing..."
"So they have this arts group to look forward to, to shine a little light on the day. They probably looked forward to that trip like you can't believe. You can't iamgine how utterly stifling it is to have never GONE ANYWHERE. I feel so sorry for those kids."

And you've just made the case for why the orchestra should not have been disbanded. The disbanding punished the children. I'll agree that dedicating the song to Shalit was a bonehead play.

Your anger is valid. But please don't let it go in the wrong direction.

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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #73
75. I hear what you're saying.
I am still waiting to read about this from a Palestinian source. I wouldn't have disbanded the orchestra -- maybe found a new director!
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #75
83. I'm glad to hear that.
n/t.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #83
89. Let me be clear: I am a 100% believer in the value of the arts for building bridges.
In my own personal life, my family is HUGELY involved in an Arab-American arts and culture organization that teaches kids traditional art forms, performs, presents major artists, opens stuff to the local community and schools.

I've seen local non-Arab kids playing Arab instruments with joy, and know those kids will never have an knee-jerk negative reaction to Arabs or Arab culture. I believe in the value of that totally. I devote signicant time and financial support to it!

But there is a HUGE difference between what we do, and what that director had those kids do.

There is nothing mutual about that exchange. There can be no mutuality in this situation that is fraught with the power dynamics of occupation. Those children who performed for that Israeli audience are denied many human rights and EVERY basic political right by the elected representatives of that audience. There is nothing mutual about a situation in which any of those kids could have been hauled off to prison at any time... stripped searched at checkpoints, etc. Those kids performed and then returned to their prison.


Can you please explain the value in that? It's not the job of Palestinian children to educate adult Israelis that they too are human beings.

Secondly, neither the kids nor their parents knew what the director had planned. Those kids did not receive all the info and make a choice. And guess what, kids in Arab culture don't get to make choices like that anyway.


At the end of the day, the dividing line on this seems to be those who support cultural and academic boycotts and those who don't. I think having exhchanges like that, within the context of Israel's ongoing occupation, creates a false sense of OK-ness. I don't support it.

The problem, Ken, isn't with the Israeli gov't of today... the problem is what happened in 1947 and what has happened under every single gov't since 1967.

Whether individual Israelis, survivors or not, bear responsibility for the actions of their elected governments is another question. YOu and I may feel differently about individual moral agency. I will try to address your other post re: that.

I think the other dividing line on this issue is how people feel peace will come about: I think those who believe peace will bubble up from the ground, ie., enough individual Palestinians and Israelis feel positively about the other that they finally begin to exert a little pressure and demand peace... (or something like that) would support these actions.

I don't see it that way at all.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #27
72. That's nothing like this situation
No Afrikaner ever went through anything remotely like the Holocaust. And these kids weren't FORCED to do this concert by the IDF.

It was voluntary. It was a simple expression of common humanity. What's the harm?

You have every right to be enraged by the oppression of your people by Zionism. But that oppression has nothing to do with this particular event. It was just children who've suffered playing for elderly people who also suffered.

Acknowledging the full impact of the Shoah does not harm the Palestinian cause. Minimizing it or carelessly referring to it as "political" serves no purpose but to bolster the hardliners in the Israeli political-military elite.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #72
79. Not only that
but recognition of each other means that not only do Israelis need to acknowledge Palestinian suffering, but Palestinians need to do the same.

Minimizing or denying the horrors of the Holocaust will not help the Palestinians get a state, that's for sure.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
44. Well, I must say this interest in the musical abilities of Palestinian children is ecouraging.
Maybe soon we can start to worry about their food, clothing, medical care, education, and job prospects.
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lwiz2003 Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Palestinian orchestra
I understand progressive muslim's point in some ways. Nevertheless, his/her analogy is flawed and makes several assumptions.
1-the Afrikaners who directly caused children to suffer, the Nazis who persecuted the Jews, the Israelis who killed innocent victims-woman, children and non-soldiers in Palestine are not the people who are involved. The inhabitants of a country may be indirectly responsible for the government's activities, but as an American I would not like to take credit for the war in Vietnam or the war in Iraq. I protested these, but my government's army still slaughtered innocents in the name of righteousness (God is on our side). I have spoken to Israelis who do not agree with their government's actions.
2-the purpose of the event did not seem to be to "parade the children" in front of elderly Jews for their entertainment. It is not pathetic to have both sides see the humanity of each other. It is understandable this is like a drop in the bucket, but nonetheless it is an effort at peace and not hatred. It is the lack of humanity that propagates war and allows "rational" people to justify killing.
3-Wafa Younis was uniting 2 groups of victims to have them gain strength-not the killers with the victims
4-If you have a meeting of 2 people that are enemies, how does that minimize the situation of the children- nobody has stated that their living conditions and hardships do not exist. You are not "parading" them or demeaning them; quite the contrary. Music should elevate the soul and this is the significance of this reunion.

There can be constant fighting or there can be efforts for peace. Of course, this should include the improvement of the Palestinians lives and address their displacement from their land. Some (I agree not all) Israelis occupied Israel for valid reasons. They should not be aware of not only the history of their own suffering, but the suffering of those they have displaced. I have family who are Arabic Muslim and family who are Jews in Israel, so I hear both sides. Hatred leads to war,bloodshed, and death. Listening and dialogue (even musical)leads to progress,tolerance, and peace. Let us all be progressive in all the sense of the word.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. The goal is not "improvement of Palestinians lives." The goal is freedom --
just like Americans have, just like Israelis have... just like Europeans and black South Africans have.

I'm glad you can partially see my point.

It all comes down to how you understand the core conflict. OK. Those oldster saw that these kids are human beings. I hope to God they all went home and thought long and hard about those kids lives... Then what? How does that lead to change? What difference does it really make?

It seems to me that the gov't of Israel doesn't answer to its people when it comes to occupation. How does these kinds of exchanges change anything? I just don't get it!!!!

Do you really not think the citizenry of a country is responsible for the actions of its gov't? Are you American? Do you not think you are responsible for what our gov't has wrought in Iraq, for example? Do we think because we voted for Gore/Kerry/Obama we are less complicit?

I'm not holding Israeli citizens to a standard more strict than the one I use to measure myself.

I am responsible for Iraq. I voted, wrote letters, gave money, demonstrated... so what? I still did all the things that make it possible for my country to commit those crimes -- paid taxes, shopped, lived "the good life," drive my car to work, keep my house warm in the winter, AC'd in the summer...

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #52
66. I can agree with a lot of what you say in that post.
Still, none of it justified the treatment of the orchestra by camp officials. Those kids weren't betraying the cause.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. Eh, welcome to DU.
Edited on Sun Mar-29-09 10:02 PM by bemildred
I can see both sides of the argument. If you feel that these children were used for Israeli propaganda purposes, then you can object. If you feel that the "reaching out" aspect is more important, then you can say let it go, it is a good thing, etc. I can see merit in both of those views. My own feeling is that a.) it's just not going to make enough of a difference to fight over, and b.) it's unfair to punish the kids. So on the whole I would have let it go, but I am not willing to criticize people that object to the way these children were used either, I think they have a point.

Edit: :hi:
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lwiz2003 Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. palestinian orchestra
As ordinary citizens, it is limited what we can do.  Each
person can only try to hear the other point of view.  I
recognize the responsibility of each citizen for his
government's actions, but better than criticizing each other
and ourselves, we should brainstorm and work to get people
together.  Even in our own families there is fighting which
is difficult to control sometimes.  Even more difficult to
control world leaders & whole populations.  To feel guilt
that our lives are good- does this serve a purpose?  Some of
us work hard in nobel professions, but recognize we are
blessed.  If we don't pay taxes we will be in jail, and what
good is that going to do?  Each day we make decisions on the
ethical thing to do in our day to day living and if we try to
fulfill our principles and do the right thing-this is good. 
Make some suggestions on positive things to do.  Give me 10
positive possible solutions to the problem or rather what can
an ordinary citizen do?  I will be glad to hear your opinions.
 The conductor of the  Palestinian orchestra I think is Arab
Israeli -so I doubt she would want to support the Israeli
occupation and be against her own people-making propaganda
for Israeli govt.   She is teaching these children music and
this in itself is beautiful.  Thanks Bemildred for the
welcome to this site.  salam aleikhum- Inshallah there will
be an end to this conflict.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #47
74. Very interesting and inspiring post
Looking forward to hearing more from you!
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #47
77. I think you covered just about everything I was thinking...
..though I'd just like to add that one or two posters in this thread who are finding what happened to be pathetic, are solid in their support of the attack on Gaza and have justified the killing of children even younger than the ones in the orchestra. The orchestra kids welfare is the furthest thing from their mind, while even though I disagree with PM, I do think it's up near the top when it comes to fuelling her POV...

It is not pathetic to have both sides see the humanity of each other. It is understandable this is like a drop in the bucket, but nonetheless it is an effort at peace and not hatred. It is the lack of humanity that propagates war and allows "rational" people to justify killing.

Well said! Yr last sentence is exactly why hardliners in both Israel and the Occupied Territories will do all they can to stop their people seeing the humanity of the other. Ignorance and blind hatred perpetuates endless violence. I read a claim that the children were being made responsible to show their humanity to the enemy. That clearly wasn't the case at all, but if there were any elderly Holocaust survivors who did hold the two-dimensional, cartoon-style view of Palestinians that a few 'pro-Israel' posters here hold, then them seeing that Palestinians are human beings just the same as everyone else was a good thing. Grass-roots encounters like this where Palestinians and Israelis meet each other in peaceful circumstances is what's needed much more than the violent face of 'the enemy', and encounters like this are what will help lead to peace, rather than insisting it comes after a peaceful resolution...

btw, let me be the second to welcome you to DU :)
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #44
58. Well they could be training as minstrals of sorts n/t
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #58
76. It's a shame we can't talk about the 2 different ways this is viewed, rather than just be "shocked"
at each other.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #76
81. The shock comes from your attitude
even from people who support your point of view most of the time.

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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #81
86. Oh Veggie! I have so missed you...
NOT! LOL!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #86
87. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #87
88. She doesn't have supporters and she hasn't driven anyone away...
Here's a newsflash - mature adults can disagree with each other in a civil way, which is what most folk in this thread are doing. Why can't you try it sometime?
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #88
95. So speaks the most disagreeable person on this forum!
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #95
97. Coming from the most ignorant troll on the forum, I can't say I'm worried what you think...
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 08:25 AM by Violet_Crumble
Not quite sure what in my post you took great offense to. Maybe you'd like to explain why you don't think people should be able to disagree with each other in a civil manner...

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #76
82. Talking about how *shocked!!!!* we are makes it so we don't have to talk about anything else...
I worked that one out pretty quick :)
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #44
67. With you on that one.
Still, this may be one of the eccentric paths that reality takes to reach people.
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