In Memory of Rachel Corrie

[polly7]

Published on Friday, March 13, 2009 by CommonDreams.org
In Memory of Rachel Corrie
by Gila Svirsky

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/03/13-5

"Rachel Corrie was killed in the Gaza Strip in Palestine on March 16, 2003, trying to prevent the demolition of the home of a Palestinian family."

[BrklynLiberal]

1. Her death was surely a tragedy......

I am sorry I cannot rec this thread...not allowed in this forum

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ken Burch]

5. Go away. Rachel's memory doesn't deserve that kind of abuse.

She was just trying to defend the powerless.

You should be ashamed of posting that.

Mods were alerted.

[w4rma]

6. I alerted too. (nt)

[Ken Burch]

7. Perhaps the poisonous image will be deleted soon.

G-d forbid a thread that paid tribute to a person who devoted her life to working for justice for the oppressed not be interrupted by a fascist hatemonger.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. I feel sort of stupid asking this, but what is the affront?

Seriously, I do not know what the issue is.

[Ken Burch]

9. Rachel was crushed by a D-9 Cat while she was trying to stop the demolition

of the home of an innocent Palestinian. The point of the photo is to mock her death by gloating about Rachel being, in essence, "flattened like a pancake". By posting it, Rage For Order is saying he is GLAD that Rachel was brutally killed by the IDF.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. She wasn't murdered by the IDF.

[Amaya]

182. explain?

she was.....

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. OK, I get the pancake thing now

[polly7]

13. Don't feel bad, I had to ask too. It's hard to believe anyone could be that cruel. n/t

[Ken Burch]

14. Anytime you learn something it's a good thing.

n/t.

[azurnoir]

30. That is not the worst I have seen

I have seen "she deserved it" more than once here

[Rage for Order]

22. Actually, there's a difference...

...between being "GLAD she was killed" and "not being sad". I fall into the latter category. She was a naive girl who did not understand the gravity of the situation into which she inserted herself. There's a big difference between protesting in the US and protesting in the Middle East.

[Ken Burch]

23. Splitting hairs

Your graphic was insensitive and completely out of place in this thread. The purpose of this thread was to pay tribute to Rachel's life, not to disrespect her in death.

And yes, there's a big difference between protesting in the Middle East and in the U.S., but that doesn't justify what was done to Rachel.

You should have just stayed out of this rather than pissing on the memory of a young woman who's work harmed no one.

If we had more Rachel Corries, the world would be a saner place.

There's no good reason to defend the home demolitions. They achieved nothing and they helped elect Hamas.

[polly7]

11. nice

Published on Saturday, October 8, 2005 by the Guardian/UK
Rachel Was Bulldozed to Death, But Her Words Are a Spur to Action
It is disturbing to see our daughter played on stage, but it drives home the impact she has had since her killing in Gaza

by Cindy and Craig Corrie

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1008-21.htm

"When our daughter Rachel Corrie was killed by an Israeli bulldozer in the Gaza strip on March 16 2003, an immediate impulse was to get her words out to the world. She had been working in Rafah with a nonviolent resistance organization, the International Solidarity Movement, trying to stop the demolition of Palestinian homes and wells. Her emails home had had a powerful impact on our family, making us think about the situation in the Middle East in ways we had never done before. Without a direct connection to Israel and Palestine, we had not understood the devastating nature of the Palestinians' situation. Coming from the US, our allegiance and empathy had always been with the people of Israel.

After Rachel died we realized that her words were having a similar effect on others whose lives were being changed, as ours have been - not just by Rachel's death, but by the window her writing provided on the Palestinian experience and by her call to action."



Do you have a suitable picture for the brave Chinese dissident who stood in front of a tank at Tianamin Square? Post them at will, I'll just keep bumping up this young girl's horrible, mostly ignored, tragedy every time you do.

[grassfed]

16. alerted

pig

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ken Burch]

20. So how are things at Free Republic?

n/t.

[LeftishBrit]

39. That's a vile post!

And I'm one of those who thinks that Rachel Corrie's death was probably an accident, or at least that there's insufficient proof the other way. 'Presumption of innocence' should apply even in cases where emotion naturally runs high.

Nevertheless, she was a young woman who died tragically, and who sacrificed her life for a cause in which she believed. I think her memory deserves respect for that.

[Ken Burch]

82. The image is gone now.

Thanks for your comments.

To hear some people, you'd think Rachel was Haniyeh in a perky blonde wig.

[Ken Burch]

3. self-delete.

self-delete

[bemildred]

4. Never forget! nt

[Jefferson23]

15. In Memoriam

~ Rachel Corrie ~
1979 - 2003


http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ken Burch]

19. OK, so you decided to make "Rage" look sane?

n/t.

[rockymountaindem]

21. Buzz off scum n/t

[Ken Burch]

26. I'm guessing Bigtime Schmuck is a few hours away from tombstoning.

n/t.

[IndianaGreen]

24. Joe the Plumber, is that you?

There is nothing mensch about a person that uses the c-word and delights in the language so common among Ditto Heads.

[Ken Burch]

27. The guy doesn't know from "mensch".

He's a Baptist from Waco, most likely.

[IndianaGreen]

28. Probably a reincarnation of banned DUer and disgraced former mod

that forced Skinner to require all new mods to abide by a confidentiality agreement.

[Ken Burch]

29. I'm gonna send you a pm about that in a minute. Respond to it via the same

n/t.

[Behind the Aegis]

31. More likely a banned DU'er (multiple times) who is a raging anti-Semite....

...and does shit like this so people like you have ammunition.

[IndianaGreen]

33. I doubt that!

But you are entitled to your theory.

[Behind the Aegis]

35. Of course you doubt it, because it would destroy your fanstasy!

You are almost as twisted and hateful as the asshole who posted that bullshit!

[IndianaGreen]

37. Oh, the anger, the rage, that fuels your post.

May come as a shock to you, but at one time there was a lot of civility among DUers regarding the I/P question, and that despite the angst and flashes of anger which, to be honest, was often misplaced particularly on the aftermath of 9-11.

Too many conscientious posters left, many of them from the self-described "pro-Israel" side, as well as many from the opposite point of view. Like in the real I/P conflict, too many things have been said and allowed to happen to ever bring about some sort of reconciliation or, at a minimum, a more civil discourse.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

78. Ah, the good old days!

I don't know if yr talking about prior to the I/P forum being created, but back in late 2002 when I joined DU, it was similar to now. There were some folk who were civil and who you knew you could have an interesting discussion with even if you didn't agree with them, and some who did nothing but go from thread to thread screaming abuse at other posters. Though I still miss Ad Jameson who was one of the best posters in the forum, and finally had enough and left after constantly being accused of being a fan of Pat Buchanan and being abused constantly. And I miss Jack Rabbit, though he still posts elsewhere at DU, and though others who were round back then will think I'm crazy for saying so, I actually missed Jem Note once he left, coz even though he got nasty, his insults were funny to read, and from reading his posts and talking to him, I worked out he wasn't a bad person at all. Okay, that's enough reminiscing for now :)

[cali]

42. I doubt it as well.

Want to tell me about my fantasies?

[Behind the Aegis]

56. Is your fantasy the same as IG's?

[cali]

76. you know better than that.

you know damned fucking well that I don't hate Israel or Israelis. I've been completely clear that I support and respect both Palestinians and Israelis. Your insinuation is utterly putrid. Shame on you.

[Behind the Aegis]

79. The shame is all yours.

If you didn't agree with my "theory," you could have said so. However, you made it sound as if you were backing IG's theory, so think about that and then review the statements made.

[LeftishBrit]

172. My head is aching...

Could someone please pm me and let me know what all these 'fantasies' of different people are about? I had assumed that the bloke was just a plain old freeper troll - now hopefully TS'd.

[Ken Burch]

83. What, might I ask, do you think Indiana's fantasy is?

Indiana is Jewish as far as I know(that's the explanation for the Hebrew-language Obama sticker in this posts).

It's the Right that deserves your hatred-not the Left.

[Behind the Aegis]

92. I know who my enemies are, I don't need a primer or excuses from you.

[Ken Burch]

97. I didn't make any excuses. Nobody on the left is your enemy.

It was the RIGHT that did the Holocaust.

It was the RIGHT that led the fight to bar Jewish refugees from safety in the U.S. and Canada.

The Left has done nothing to deserve your hatred.

[Behind the Aegis]

98. Then you live in a fantasy world.

[Ken Burch]

100. In the I/P situation, it's simple: the Israeli government has all the power

And, like any other state that is dominant in a dispute, it has become arrogant and reckless.

None of that is the fault of the Left.

There is no way you can seriously describe Operation Cast Lead or the continued Occupation of the West Bank as essential for Israel's self-defence.

And I stand in solidarity with those heroic people like Uri Avnery, like Amira Hass, like Noam Chomsky, like Leon Rosselson and so many others who DEFEND the traditional Jewish universalist commitment to stand with the oppressed. The State of Israel needs to radically change what its doing and to embrace those universalist values if it is to survive.

The way to peace is to end the injustice. No injustice, no mistreatment, no checkpoints, no bombing, and there'd be no support for Hamas.

The Left is guilty of nothing but standing with those who are the victims in this conflict. There's no way it could defend the Israeli status quo position and still BE the Left. It wouldn't be possible to back justice and oppose oppression elsewhere and look the other way about in this one place.

[Behind the Aegis]

102. Doesn't change the status of your residency,

I am used to your crap, so I won't address what I have addressed many times before. If what you describe is the only "left" you know, then it explains your comment and mine.

[Ken Burch]

108. The Left was the faction of world politics that OPPOSED Hitler in the Thirties

The ancestors of the "pro-Israel" pols were the ones who kept Jewish refugees out.

And why do you seemingly insist on making "defense of Israel" more important than anything else? Israel has never been necessary to the survival of the world's Jewish communities, at least not to the extent that could possibly justify the permanent right-wing direction the place is eternally committed to now.

And the Occupation is NOT necessary to Israel's survival(a survival that isn't ever going to be jeopardized anyway, since they are the strongest military force in the Middle East).

Why put such an investment into defending a political project that's utterly unworthy of you? You're a better person than to defend the reactionary values of the IDF.

[Behind the Aegis]

109. I am not dealing with your bullshit strawmen tonight.

[Ken Burch]

111. No strawmen. If you were antifascist, you're against antisemitism.

The left are on the side of Jews, because we're against all oppression. That's enough. We don't have to support the Occupation and Operation Cast Lead to prove we're not Nazis.

You need to let this "the Left is the enemy" thing go. It's the Right that's the problem, and it's the Right that deserves your hate.

[Behind the Aegis]

113. Your entire former post was nothing but straw!

And you continue with it.

[Ken Burch]

116. There is no such thing as an antifascist who hates Jews.

If you're against fascism, you're a universalist and oppose all oppression, and you defend Jewish people from persecution just as deeply as you defend anyone else.

Why is your rage against the left so much deeper than it is against the actual enemies of the Jewish people, the Right?

[Behind the Aegis]

117. Why is it I let myself be sucked in to responding to your bullshit straw posts?

[Ken Burch]

119. NO bullshit. I'm right on this one.

If you're a an antifascist leftist, you CAN'T be an antisemite. It's simply impossible.

It's the Right that's the enemy of the Jews. Why can't you see that?

[Behind the Aegis]

121. Why can't you see what you have done is created strawmen?

ETA: Do you know what the term "strawman" means?

[Ken Burch]

145. Yes, and you've done nothing to demonstrate that anything I've posted fits that.

If you'd actually try to rebut anything I've posted on the merits, offer actual evidence to the contrary, I'd be interested to read it.

Simply refusing to accept anything I've said, without saying why, is NOT a rebuttal.

[Behind the Aegis]

150. Do you know what a strawman is?

If you do, then there is no need for me to point out your strawmen. If you do not know, I provided the definition for you. You should be able to put the puzzle pieces together from that information.

"Simply refusing to accept anything I've said, without saying why, is NOT a rebuttal." Strawman.

[Ken Burch]

155. No, a proper rebuttal would be to say

"here's where you're wrong". With me, you never do that.

Doing that is the respect anyone's case is entitled to.

Simply shouting "strawman, strawman, strawmen", is NOT an argument.

[Behind the Aegis]

157. Because strawmen aren't legtimate forms of argument.

[cali]

171. That's delusional. Sorry. And there's a shitload of evidence

all over the net on purportedly leftist sites, to demonstrate that you're wrong. It's anti-semites and haters that are enemies of Jews- and the rest of us. And they're not all relegated to the right. Human nature simply isn't the black/white construct you believe it to be.

[LeftishBrit]

175. Yes...

There have been attempts on the right to imply that antisemitism is *mainly* an attitude of the Left, and that's certainly rubbish. Xenophobia, including antisemitism, is intrinsicalyl a right-wing phenomenon. Nevertheless, people who call themselves leftists, or who are genuinely left on many issues, are not thereby immune to xenophobic prejudices.

Admittedly some so-called 'leftists' who express antisemitism are really anti-establishment or anti-war righties, who have been allowed to use the left-wing label, because they're against Bush and/or the war and/or the establishment in power. I think they'll find it harder to pose as leftists now that Bush has been replaced by Obama. (One clue: a person or group that seriously uses the phrase 'New World Order' is almost always anti-establishment Right, rather than Left.)

Nonetheless, even people who are really left-wing in most ways are perfectly capable of retaining antisemitic, other racist, sexist, etc. prejudices.

And there is in any case no such thing as *The* Left - the Left is made up of huge numbers of factions.

[Shaktimaan]

162. What about Stalin?

You seem to have a very naive pov about the political philosophies of these movements. Fascism is a specific political movement. You can't presume anything about those who oppose it other than that they oppose it. There are plenty of left-wingers who have opposed the creation of a Palestinian state, for instance. (And yes, they are "real" lefties, too.) Remember, the officer corps of the IDF has always been plucked from the nation's kibbutznik population... Socialists all.

[Ken Burch]

176. Given the Hitler-Stalin pact, a strong case can be made that Stalin was NOT a true antifascist

The other evidence for this was his sabotage of the antifascist struggle in Spain.

[Ken Burch]

137. How can it be a strawman to say the Left is the enemy of antisemitism?

How can it be a strawman to point out that criticism of Israeli security policies is NOT antisemitism or "national bigotry".

There's no way that the Israeli government can have the strongest military in the Middle East and still claim that its a victim nation.

[Behind the Aegis]

141. More straw and a COMPLETE lack of logic.

[cali]

170. Sorry, there absolutely is anti-semitism on the left

building up the left to be some mythical shining city on a hill, is just foolish. there are haters on the left- though not so entrenched or numerous as those on the right. It's foolish as all get out to idealize any political faction. and damned dangerous.

[cali]

169. Actually, there were more than a few on the right- particularly in Germany itself-

who opposed Hitler. Suggested reading: Diary of a Man in Despair.

[shira]

165. Can you possibly be more ignorant?

Nazi Germany could not possibly pull off the Holocaust 70 years ago without the knowledge or lack of support from Europe and the Allied powers of that time. Do you know ANYTHING about Jewish persecution (pogroms) during the times of Marx, Lenin and Stalin? Those guys were not rightwingers by any means. Jews who were in Russia during WW2 actually welcomed the Nazis in, believing they were better than their Russian oppressors. A big part of the reason Herzl concluded that Jews needed a homeland in the 19th century was because that even with the age of Enlightenment and revolutions, Jew hatred was still as intolerable a phenomenon as ever.

[IndianaGreen]

173. Lenin didn't run any pogroms.

Lenin's top aides were Jews.

Stalin is another matter altogether, and he wasn't a Leninist.

[shaayecanaan]

44. So people who post this stuff are false flags

but the people who post anti-semitic comments are the real deal?

[IndianaGreen]

53. We've got drive-by shooters. It happens in the upper fora as well.

A new poster will say the most incendiary things, usually during periods of great consternation and frayed nerves caused by a traumatic event (9-11, Schiavo case, etc). The purpose of the incendiary post is to generate a flame war and keep people at odds with one another, people that have more in common with one another than they may be readily to admit.

It works both ways in I/P.

[Behind the Aegis]

57. Some are, some aren't.

[Ken Burch]

81. You have no reason to imply that people who criticize Israeli security policies

had anything to do with the appearance of that scumbag. We're just as much against antisemitism as you are. You don't have to cheer on the IDF to hate the Jew-haters.

That guy was nothing to do with us.

[Behind the Aegis]

91. And you have no idea of what you speak.

[davidinalameda]

54. they ban anti-Semites here?

didn't realize that

[IndianaGreen]

58. They most certainly get banned, as well as Holocaust deniers.

Unless one chooses to believe the anti-DU drivel spewing from several hate sites on the internet.

[Behind the Aegis]

59. On occasion.

[Ken Burch]

80. You can't really be blaming critics of Israeli military policy for the "Mensch" can you?

Good gravy, that's insane.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ken Burch]

101. You're implying that critics of Israeli policy are somehow in league with this

banned antisemitic poster you speak of(a poster I'd condemn if I knew who he or she was just as fiercely as you do).

None of us had anything to do with "Bigtime"'s posts, and none of us were using his posts as an excuse to bash Jews. I for one don't think that "Bigtime" actually was Jewish.

And Indiana, as far as I know, IS Jewish, so why the hell are you bashing him(or her?)

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ken Burch]

106. IG IS Jewish. It's not your place to question that.

And of course I'm aware that bigotry exists in many forms, but that's not what opposition to Operation Cast Lead or the Occupation is about. It's about wanting one people to stop getting beaten down by another.

[Behind the Aegis]

107. I said I knew that and it is irrelevant.

And it seems you only know bigotry if it comes in the form of age-old stereotypes and epitaphs.

ETA: I can damn well question anything I please, just as you and others seem to like to do about me!

[Ken Burch]

110. How can it ever be bigotry to oppose a military occupation?

We'd all oppose what's happening in Palestine just as deeply if the power dynamic were reversed.

Other than a trivially small number of fringe weirdos, nobody opposed the Occupation because "they hate Jews".

And a lot of the Republicans that back Israel are much more hateful towards Jews, in their private views, than any Hamas militant.

The Left wants a world without injustice.

Wanting that, there's no way the left COULD take your position on I/P affairs(I.E., a position that seems to be based on absolute support of the status quo).

[Behind the Aegis]

112. I never said such a thing did I?

Considering you don't know my positions, you can make all the false accusations you want but they are based on nonsense, strawmen, and bullshit.

[Ken Burch]

114. Here in I/p Land, you do nothing but denounce opposition to Israeli security policies

I've never seen you offer a single criticism of anything the IDF has done.

I've never seen you call for an end to the Occupation.

Nor an end to Operation Cast Lead.

Put those together, you couldn't be anything BUT a supporter of the status quo.

It isn't possible to back the IDF now and still criticize it later.

[Behind the Aegis]

115. More straw!

Continue to make shit up, it doesn't change the fact it is still shit.

[Ken Burch]

118. Have you ever even CRITICIZED the continued building of West Bank settlements?

Have you ever criticized the totally destructive effects of The Wall?

Have you ever opposed Operation Cast Lead?

[Behind the Aegis]

120. Have you ever posed things other than straw?

Have you ever checked the archives?

Have you ever opposed anti-Semitism when it comes from the left?

Have you ever opposed anti-Israel bigotry?

Do you even know what real bigotry is?

[Ken Burch]

123. I HAVE opposed anti-Semitism when it's come from the left

I oppose any bigotry when it's come from anywhere.

And there can't actually be any such thing as "anti-Israel bigotry". A country can't be the victim of bigotry, because a government is just a government and must be accountable for what it does no matter what.

Real bigotry is sending people to the ovens or wanting people to be sent to the ovens, or nailed to a tree in Wyoming, or be hanged and burned because you're black. Criticizing the policies of a government can NEVER be bigotry. A government can never be a victim of oppression.

It is NOT "anti-Israel bigotry" or antisemitism to oppose the Occupation or the Gaza War. Nobody is doing either of those things simply because the politicians or the generals engaging in them happen, by chance, to identify as Jewish. They'd be opposed no matter who was doing them. And you know it.

[Behind the Aegis]

125. See, you don't know bigotry.

A country can be a "victim" of bigotry.

"Criticizing the policies of a government can NEVER be bigotry." Uh-huh. For the most part that is true, but it is not always the case, though rare.

As for the rest of your straw, enjoy yourself. You seem to argue well with yourself.

[Ken Burch]

127. How can a COUNTRY be a victim of bigotry?

Please explain this.

I can see how a nation that is still not independent can be a victim of oppression, but you can't really be arguing that people are only criticizing the government of Israel, for example, because it claims to be Jewish? That's absurd.

How can a country with a massive army ever be a victim of anything?

And are you arguing(I'm asking this, not making any assumptions)that Palestinians, in their resistance to the Occupation, can actually be considered "bigots"? Where would that conclusion arise from? Can't we assume that anyone else who treated the Palestinians as the IDF has treated them would have faced the exact same level of resistance?

Nobody in history ever said "It's ok if this group oppresses me, but not THIS OTHER group".

[Behind the Aegis]

129. Read the defintion I provided below.

See if you can figure it out for yourself. If not, then ask me again without the additional bullshit strawmen.

[Ken Burch]

131. I have read it, and responded to it below.

Nothing that's been said here about Israeli policy has been driven by hatred of the Jewish tradition, or Judaism as a religion, or by the fact that Israel's leaders claim to be Jewish. It's been about the morality and merits of the policies themselves.

You've offered nothing to prove otherwise.

[Behind the Aegis]

132. And it is over. You cannot resist your strawmen and they are old.

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.<1> To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.<1> <2>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw-man

[Ken Burch]

146. I haven't misrepresented your position.

You, on the other hand, have not offered a single actual genuine counter-argument to anything I've posted.

My arguments aren't "strawmen" simply because you say they are. And your level of argument is very similar to that of a child who puts his fingers in his ears and says "la la la la la, I can't hear you".

You are not the Cosmic Arbiter of Strawmanitude. If you're going to call an argument a strawman, you need to demonstrate why you believe this to be the case. You've never actually offered a single rebuttal to me on the merits of what I've said. If what I'd actually posted had ever been a strawmen, it should have been easy for you to actually demonstrate this. Why do you never do so?

[Behind the Aegis]

152. More straw! This is tedious.

Of course, now you have graduated to ad hominems and red herrings.

[Ken Burch]

149. I read it. It didn't illustrate your point

Again, how can a militarily dominant country ever be the victim of "national prejudice"?

What is, and what is not, in your opinion, legitimate criticism of Israeli secutiry policy?

[polly7]

124. What exactly is real bigotry?

I would think it's denying men, women and children the right to keep their homes, land, clean water, adequate food, freedom to enter and leave to get medical care, go to school, work .... without being in danger of getting shot at checkpoints - because they are Arab. jmo ...

[Behind the Aegis]

126. Dictionary.com

big⋅ot⋅ry   /ˈbɪgətri/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA
–noun, plural -ries. 1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.

[Ken Burch]

130. Which is why the term doesn't apply to critics of Israeli policy towards Palestinians

Nobody(at least nobody on DU) is attacking Judaism as a religion, or Jewish cultural traditions, or any beliefs intrinsic to the Jewish heritage(of which Zionism hasn't been for most of Jewish history).

It has never been about not accepting the presence of Judaism in Palestine. It's been about the displacement of one people by another, especially since the first people was not the cause of the second people's historic suffering.

I don't hate Judaism, or any aspects of Jewish culture.
From the posts I've read, neither does much of anyone else on DU, except for a tiny handful of creeps that critics of Israeli policy do as much to drive away as "pro-Israel" posters do).

I'm not even an anti-Zionist. The views I've expressed are not about wanting Israel to go out of existence. What I hate is to see a people driven out of their land and treated as the successors in infamy to Caesar, the Inquisition, the Tsars and Hitler when that people has done nothing to deserve it.

[Behind the Aegis]

133. ;;;;;;;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw-man

[Ken Burch]

134. Doesn't apply in this case.

I offered no strawmen. I demonstrated, on the other hand, that Israel is not a victim of NATIONAL bigotry.

I did respond to your actual position.

[Behind the Aegis]

135. You only did so in your mind, not in your post.

[Ken Burch]

136. What, in your mind, is legitimate criticism of Israel and what is "anti-Israel bigotry"

Set all of us straight on this, if you'd be so kind.

[Behind the Aegis]

148. FINALLY an actual question and no straw! BRAVO!

"legitimate criticism of Israel" -- criticizing actual policies, politicians, or positions held.

"anti-Israel bigotry" -- singling out Israel for things other nations do at the same or greater ratio; utilizing hyperbolic propaganda; spreading lies/falsehoods/untruths about Israel even when facts do not sustain such allegations; expecting behavior above and beyond all other parties; singling out Israel for contempt; finding most, if not all things Israeli to be evil, bad, or unjust; using anti-Semitic canards under the guise of criticizing Israel; singling out Israel for special contempt

As with most bigotry, it is not a singular event or expression, but a collection of repeated actions demonstrating overt bias against Israel.

[Ken Burch]

153. I don't know that anyone actually finds "most, if not all things Israeli" to be evil, bad, or unjust

Criticism of the Occupation or of the Gaza War hardly falls in that category.

For one thing, it is not an unchallengeable point that the IDF HAD to do what it did to the people of Gaza simply to preserve Israel's physical survival.

And it is not an unchallengeable assertion that what the IDF is doing is going to lead to Hamas being displaced as the leadership of Gaza. Instead, it's much more likely to bolster Hamas' support.

Nor is it beyond discussion that the Occupation of the West Bank protects the security of Israel proper. It is much more likely that it endangers that security by keeping Palestinians enraged and in a state of submission to the IDF.
Historically, you don't get a people to choose peace by humiliating it. In fact, that never EVER works. Anywhere.

[Ken Burch]

159. The more negative, and extreme minority, statements about Israel

That you've mentioned(statements that don't reflect the view of the overwhelming majority of critics of Israeli policy, who are motived by a sincere belief in justice) came about, most likely, out of the climate of resentment the Israeli apologists in this country created, people like the COMMENTARY crowd, who spent decades demonizing ANY criticism of Israeli policy as "antisemitism".

If those people had always accepted that the Israeli government should be accountable to the world for its actions like any other state, the tone of the minority would not be like that.

The best thing you could do to remedy that situation would be if you would join those people in the American Jewish community who are breaking with the worst of Israeli policies and calling on the Israeli government, finally, to do right by the Palestinians.
Israel's survival was never going to be jeopardized by be being subject to the same open debate any other country faces in the international community.

[Ken Burch]

140. You can't call my arguments "strawmen" without actually demonstrating why they would be

And you can't demonstrate that with my response to the dictionary definition you posted.

All I did was take a position you disagree with. That doesn't automatically discredit the position.

And I'd have a bit more respect for your posts if you'd actually respond to the merits of other people's positions rather than simply dismiss them.

[Behind the Aegis]

143. Straw and lack of understanding.

[Ken Burch]

147. What are you saying? That no one can "understand" the I/P situation without agreeing with YOU

on everything?

now THAT's a strawman.

The facts do not unchallengeably back the Israeli government position.

[Behind the Aegis]

158. Another one...and it is "Strawman," not "strongman."

[Ken Burch]

160. I corrected the spelling.

trivial mistake.

[Ken Burch]

138. I responded, point by point, to the dictionary definition

to the claims the definition made.

I demonstrated that none of them apply to criticism of Israeli security. Face it, nobody on DU opposed the Occupation because they hate Jews. None of us do.

[Behind the Aegis]

142. Straw

[Ken Burch]

144. Sorry, you can't just invoke your beloved "s-word" without demonstrating

why it is so.

If you have anything that actually rebuts what I said on the merits, I'd be glad to hear it.

Simply calling something "straw" isn't an argument.

[Behind the Aegis]

151. I can.

There is nothing requiring me to point out your vast collection of straw.

[Ken Burch]

154. Actually there is. Other than that, your argument is nothing but

that of a child saying to another child "IS NOT!".

[Behind the Aegis]

156. Using logical fallicies is not a proper form of debate.

When they are used, then debate ceases and no argument is or has been made, as the case has been here.

[Ken Burch]

161. You can't just assert that someone else's statement is a "logical fallacy"

You need to demonstrate how it is.

You've not demonstrated that with anything I've posted, or anything anyone else has posted, from what I've seen.

You have to actually make a counter-case.

[Shaktimaan]

183. Not a very accurate portrayal of the situation though.

Nothing you mentioned has to do with anyone being Arab or not. There is a war going on. That war is primarily split down ethnic lines. That does not then mean that the war's consequences are due to bigotry.

Correlation does not prove causality.

[islandmkl]

25. you have neither the skill, nor the balls, to operate a CAT...

let alone make anyone believe you would run over a human being....

let all your buddies, over at THEIR moms' houses, know you posted some inane, profane shit on DU...you'll be a hero...a losers' hero, but what else can you aspire to?

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

34. Funny we both have our own theories as to this POS former identity

Can we agree that he is a POS?

[Behind the Aegis]

36. Oh I will certainly agree this is a POS!

Two posts and only one shows! This is another of the Jew-hating club that likes to sign up and post this fucking shit!

[LeftishBrit]

38. Bigtime Troll more like it; have you lost your way to another board?

[cali]

41. This is without a doubt one of the most vile posts I've ever seen here

you really are a mindless piece of right wing shit.

[shira]

43. although tragic, Rachel Corrie was not defending anyone's home

there's a youtube video available, can't find it now but it's IDF video, showing the tractor just 1-2 seconds before hitting Rachel Corrie. There was no house nearby. In fact, she was in an open field defending a smuggling tunnel. Her death was tragic enough, but what's obscene and vulgar to the max is the aftermath and the manner in which her death was reported (deliberate murder, fake photos and video, etc..).

Okay, searched and just found something on it here:
http://www.think-israel.org/israelmatzav.howcorriedied.html

And here's an article summarizing the events:
http://www.israelenews.com/view.asp?ID=1520

[polly7]

45. The Facts

The Facts
More than 18,000 Palestinian homes have been demolished by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) since 1967.
More than 4,000 of those homes were demolished after September 2000.
From September 2000 until 2004, over 2,500 homes were demolished in Gaza; 1,600 of those were located in Rafah, a 2.5 mile long strip of land along the border of southern Gaza.

http://ccrjustice.org/learn-more/faqs/factsheet%3A-home-demolitions-and-caterpillar
The Plaintiffs

The Al Sho’bi family: Mahmoud Omar Al Sho’bi is from Nablus in the West Bank. In April 2002, a D9 bulldozer destroyed Mr. Al Sho’bi’s family home without warning in an IDF attack in the middle of the night. His father Umar, his sisters Fatima and Abir, his brother Samir, pregnant sister-in-law Nabila and their three children, ages 4, 7, and 9, were all killed.

The Fayed family: Fathiya Muhammad Sulayman Fayed’s home was bulldozed during an IDF incursion into the Jenin Refugee Camp in 2002. Hundreds of buildings were destroyed allegedly to clear paths for IDF tanks. During the demolition, her son, Jamal, who was paralyzed, needed assistance to get out of the house. While the IDF briefly stopped bulldozing so Fathiya could help Jamal, they quickly resumed demolition. Fathiya escaped, but was unable to get Jamal out, and he was killed.

The Abu Hussein family: A D9 demolished the Abu Hussein family home in the al-Salam neighborhood of Rafah in 2002. Destruction began without warning at 5:00 a.m., injuring six family members inside. After being warned, IDF halted active demolition but fired on neighbors and relatives trying to evacuate those in the house.

The Corrie family: Rachel Corrie, an American activist, went to Gaza with the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), a Palestinian-led movement using nonviolence to resist the Israeli occupation. In March 2003, Rachel stood in front of the Nasrallah family home to protect it from demolition while the family was inside. Despite her fluorescent orange jacket and fellow activists waiving to stop the soldiers, they drove over Rachel, crushing her to death.

The Khalafallah family: In a July 2004 incursion into Khan Yunis Refugee Camp, the IDF demolished over 70 homes. At midnight, a bulldozer approached the home of Ibrahim Khalafallah and his wife Eida, where they lived with their 5 children, 2 daughters-in-law and 4 grandchildren. Ibrahim, in his 70’s and sick, was unable to move. When the bulldozer hit the house, Eida tried to stop the driver, but he continued, destroying the home and killing Ibrahim.

[shira]

46. the facts related to Rachel Corrie and her tragic death

are what's in dispute. Did you read those articles? What do you think now?

[polly7]

47. I think she was murdered, the same way others have been and

will continue to be, as long as Israel maintains its policy of purposeful destruction and lack of concern for whoever gets in the way. That's what I think.

[shira]

49. and the articles I linked to with video and evidence of photo tampering...not credible?

[polly7]

50. No.

"In fact, she was in an open field defending a smuggling tunnel." I don't believe that for half a second. Unreal ...

Here is what she and most people were (and are) so upset about (from her own emails home):

"This is in the area where Sunday about 150 men were rounded up and contained outside the settlement with gunfire over their heads and around them, while tanks and bulldozers destroyed 25 greenhouses - the livelihoods for 300 people. The explosive was right in front of the greenhouses - right in the point of entry for tanks that might come back again. I was terrified to think that this man felt it was less of a risk to walk out in view of the tanks with his kids than to stay in his house. I was really scared that they were all going to be shot and I tried to stand between them and the tank. This happens every day, but just this father walking out with his two little kids just looking very sad, just happened to get my attention more at this particular moment, probably because I felt it was our translation problems that made him leave."

http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/site/about-rachel-corrie/rachels-emails-from-palestine/


Even if you choose to ignore the home demolitions she cries over, you might be interested in the reply to her from an IDF soldier on the same page.

[shira]

63. okay

"In fact, she was in an open field defending a smuggling tunnel." I don't believe that for half a second. Unreal ...

So you didn't watch the video, or you think the video is fake?

[Ken Burch]

139. There's nothing in the video but a D-9 in a field.

We have no way of determining, from the video, if that D-9 is even the same one that killed Rachel.

You don't have exoneration there, shira.

[shira]

166. video 2, go 40 seconds in but also 5 minutes in and see both clips

[ProgressiveProfessor]

61. The pictures and analysis call many of the "statements" into question

but there are still unanswered questions on both sides.

[polly7]

64. What was the US inquiry results, if you know?

........"A US congressional resolution demanding an independent inquiry into Corrie's death has been buried in committee, leaving the Israeli military's investigation — which conveniently cleared itself of any wrong doing — as the only official probe."

When Some Lives Matter More Than Others
By Naomi Klein - May 21st, 2003

http://www.naomiklein.org/articles/2003/05/when-some-lives-matter-more-others

[ProgressiveProfessor]

66. So what?

[polly7]

68. My bad ........ I guess you took offense at the question.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

69. No, the status of an inquiry is irrelevant to the facts of the incident

The analysis of the pictures is pretty damning for the ISM side of the story. However, there are still issues on both sides to be addressed. Regardless, Corrie is still dead. Some will deride her actions, other praise them. In the end the events have had negligible impact on the large scale of things.

[polly7]

70. I disagree.

The events have a huge impact not only on those who loved her but on a growing number of people who add up these atrocities and come to their own conclusion. Rachel Corrie's death was a huge eye-opener to me of the horrors of Israel's brutal bulldozing of homes, livelihoods, water-wells and all the 'unintended' deaths along with it. So it doesn't matter much to you ........... that's your perogative.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

71. I did not claim in did not have significance to some, but on the macro level

nothing came of it. If the ISM had been less *inventive* in telling it side, it could have had more impact.

[polly7]

72. They didn't have to be inventive.

Their eye-witnesses were feet away. What is inventive is some of the propaganda being dished out to make excuses for her horrible death.

Plenty came of it, and she won't be forgotten. (Naomi Klein's article was right on the mark, wasn't it??)



http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/site/

[ProgressiveProfessor]

73. But they were...thats my point

[Violet_Crumble]

75. I've read the eye-witness accounts and they weren't inventive...

Just like they weren't when Tom Hurndall was murdered....

[polly7]

48. IDF video??

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1263.shtml

HUMAN RIGHTS

Four eyewitnesses describe the murder of Rachel Corrie
Tom Dale, Greg Schnabel, Richard Purssell, and Joe Smith, International Solidarity Movement, 19 March 2003

American peace activist Rachel Corrie was murdered by an Israeli bulldozer driver on 16 March 2003 while attempting to defend a Palestinian doctor's home from demolition. Four of the seven International Solidarity Movement members present have written their recollections of the incident: Tom Dale (US), Greg Schnabel (UK), Richard Purssell (UK), and Joe Smith (US). Greg and Richard's accounts are more formal accounts. Tom and Joe's accounts are excerpted from e-mails to friends and families. Courtesy of the International Solidarity Movement.

[cali]

51. I have no idea whether Rachel was purposefully murdered

or whether it was an act of callous disregard, but I trust neither the IDF or members of the ISM, who have a huge reason to see it as deliberate murder.

[polly7]

52. I understand your point of view however

for a dozen years I operated a payloader and tractors with bucket or forklift in tight quarters on a farm with dogs and cats running around. There is no way that operator did not see her in front of him. If she'd been behind, maybe ..... but ahead, nah. I was an amateur, this bulldozer driver was presumably well-trained. My opinion. There have also been other documented cases of people who died when they couldn't leave their homes, so I will trust what the eye-witnesses had to say.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

60. The D9s being used have extensive armor shields that significantly block vision

[polly7]

65. Must make it terribly difficult, if not nearly impossible, to operate at all.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

67. Its not as bad as a tank buttoned up, but is more limiting that unmodified units

Something about protecting the operator from being shot at

[Violet_Crumble]

77. Same here...

I'm not sure whether she was murdered or whether there was a callous disregard for the safety of anyone there, but when it comes down to it in the end, neither are good. I do think however that when it comes to trusting the word of the IDF or the eye-witnesses who were there, I trust the IDF far less, given the rather inventive version of events they intially came up with over the murder of Tom Hurndall, which was later proven to be incorrect. When it comes to the eye-witnesses to the death of Rachel Corrie, of course they'd have a very emotional investment in her killing, but I doubt that would lead them to be dishonest about how her death happened...

[shira]

85. have you looked at that video yet?

[polly7]

86. No, I've read too many instances of the IDF flat out lying.

I don't need to see their propaganda in video too.

[Ken Burch]

122. I looked at the video, and it didn't actually show anything

It showed a D-9 Cat headed towards something, and that was pretty much it. It did not show Rachel, and there's nothing in the video that even establishes that it was actually the Cat that ran over Rachel.

So no, the video is not exoneration nor does it conclusively discredit the ISM's version of events.

[Idealism]

55. Why can you mourn her death and just leave it at that?

Why must you bring in propaganda into this? You have no definitive answers, neither do the ISM activists who witnessed the tragedy first-hand. The truth will not be found in an Israel News article. Your lack of compassion coupled with your obvious agenda hoping to assuage the scope of this tragedy sickens me.

[shira]

62. wtf?

It was a very tragic and unfortunate incident and I feel plenty of compassion for those closest to her. Believe it or not, I have family and children too. What sickens me are your constant accusations of "no compassion", "support oppression of Palestinians", etc. Do you understand those baseless accusations are just as hurtful as empty accusations of anti-semitism?

Did you watch the video? Was Rachel defending a home or was she in an open field just milliseconds before the Caterpillar hit her? Hint: It's in the video. Did you see all the fauxtography and read all the contradictory reports? And the media went right with it. If such demonization of Israel and its citizens doesn't sicken you, you're beyond twisted and hate-filled.

[EFerrari]

84. No one is claiming the citizens of Israel killed Rachel

and if you knew shame, you'd be ashamed to assert such a falsehood.

[shira]

95. when Israel is smeared and demonized, its citizen population

as well as most Jews the world over, also feel attacked. How else should we feel when we're zionists who support the state of Israel and we're told we support oppression, racism, colonialism, Rachel Corrie's "murder", etc. and have no compassion for Palestinians?

[IndianaGreen]

99. May I remind you that it was Israel that told Diaspora Jews to STFU

In the early 1970s when many Jews in America and elsewhere began to push for an end to the Occupation we were told to STFU. We are still being told to STFU. We are only to follow the lead from Jerusalem.

[Ken Burch]

104. I said the IDF killed Rachel, not "most Jews the world over".

From what I've seen, a lot of Jewish people the world over ADMIRE Rachel Corrie, and join those who denounce the implication that she was an antisemite. Rachel would have done exactly what she did if the power dynamic between Israelis and Palestinians had been reversed.

And it's hard to see any "compassion" among those(regardless of religion)who still support Operation Cast Lead. That position still looks like support for "peace through victory", even though everyone knows that this can't end with any one side getting a military victory.

[shira]

167. who do you think the IDF is?

The IDF isn't like the USA armed forces. Everyone in Israel either serves or has family and friends who serve. It's VERY personal. To claim the IDF murders Rachel Corrie, children, etc.. is to smear and demonize Israeli citizens and zionist supporters. You do realize lawyers, doctors, and journalists all serve in the IDF in one form or another? If the IDF is truly evil, as you and many others must believe it is, then EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE in Israel must also know it from direct experience. Those who are older have children and grandchildren serving. Those who are younger have older relatives and close friends serving. Now do you really believe the IDF is so bad, and that Israeli civilians are so sick and twisted, that they are all - or most Israelis - are involved in a sinister coverup - all brainwashed drones with no morals or compassion? Do you believe I would support such a sick and twisted society? Or do you just believe most Jews are too fucking stupid and ignorant and don't know what the hell is happening under their own noses?

[EFerrari]

105. That's your problem. If you can't distinguish between leadership

and the electorate, then I pity you. I could sure distinguish between myself and George Bush.

[shira]

168. see post #167 directly above

[Ken Burch]

88. "did you watch the video" is a trick question on your part, shira

Given that you neither posted the video nor told anyone where we could find it.

And the reason some(but not all) people who identify as "pro-Israeli" get accused of having no compassion or of supporting the oppression of Palestinians is that, well, they post images of pancakes in threads where a person who was crushed to death by an IDF D-9 Cat(and no, that wasn't you, but that image ended up leading to half the posts on this thread before it was banned), or because in other threads they simply appear to repeat the Israeli government line verbatim(that it's all about "the rockets, the rockets, the rockets" as if those rockets were fired for no reason)or because they refuse to accept that the West Bank and Gaza do naturally belong to the Palestinians.

If you had any interest in helping the Palestinians have a better life, you wouldn't just go on over and over and over about "the rockets, Hamas, the rockets, Hamas, the rockets , Hamas(Apply Directly To The Territories)." You'd actually listen to the Palestinians, you'd actually try to understand what drives the choices they've taken, and you'd oppose the steps taken by the Israeli government that have never done anything but make things worse(like the continued refusal to not only remove the existing West Bank settlements but also the refusal to absolutely guarantee not to start any new ones). You'd support B'Tselem, you'd be in solidarity with the refuseniks(who are defending the best in Jewish morality by not involving themselves in a war that can have no positive consequences) and you'd join those who defend Palestinian olive groves from unjust destruction. That's what a compassionate person would do. Not just repeat endless bromides about "existential struggle"(news flash, every government on the planet describes every war it ever starts as an "existential struggle") and not dismissing those who oppose the destructive Israeli military policies and the war on Gaza as people who shouldn't be heard.

The Palestinians have done what they've done because the Israeli security apparatus gave them no other choice. Unilaterally disarming, as they basically did in the Nineties, got them nothing but humiliation from the Israeli government and daily harassment and humiliation from the IDF. You've got to accept it, shira: "peace through victory" isn't possible. The only way for peace to come in this situation is to give up on "winning" and to let their be an ending to this where no one is vanquished and no one is humiliated. That's no too much to ask.

[shira]

94. the youtube video is in the 1st link, post #43 of mine above

and I do have compassion for Palestinians, just not in the same way you have. You seem to believe their leadership best represents in word and deed what the general population - including the real moderates - believes. I don't. Ever since Arafat arrived back on the scene 20 years ago and shot all collaborators in charge who wanted to make peace with Israel (especially the leadership that existed before Arafat), that was the end of Palestinian leadership that was committed to a real peace deal, and the end of a leadership that best represented its people. I feel bad for Palestinians victimized by Israel, but I also feel bad for Palestinians victimized by their own leadership, do you? Here's something that really speaks for me - but that is generally regarded by people like yourself to be "off the mark", shall we say.

Read the OP by Noa:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x255450

I guess we have different definitions of compassion as it pertains to Palestinians.

[Ken Burch]

96. I am not a supporter of the current Palestinian leadership

And if you think I am, you're missing the point of all I've written.

The leadership isn't the point.

The treatment of Palestinians under the Occupation is the point.

And that treatment had a lot to do with Palestinians choosing the leadership they did choose.

And the most important thing is, we BOTH know that Operation Cast Lead cannot possibly have the effect of persuading the Palestinians to change their leadership-or at least not to a leadership that would be more amenable to peace.

The Wall, the checkpoints, the Gaza War, the continued settlement construction-THESE are the things that have marginalized the more moderate voices in Palestine. To Palestinians, they saw that moderation got them nothing in the 90's. This is why they've taken the choices they've taken now.

Thus, increasing the pressure on and hardship experienced by the Palestinian people can NEVER have the result of moderating them. Steps that lead towards the actual establishment of a real Palestinian state, and steps that make life easier for ordinary Palestinians, are the only things that can do that.

And there was NO pre-Arafat leadership that was more conciliatory to Israel. That's a Likudnik myth. There was certainly never a Palestinian leadership that ever would have settled for anything short of a Palestinian state.

[shira]

163. so you have zero compassion for Palestinians who suffer under Jihadi leadership

While you see Israel taking 100% ownership of Palestinian suffering, the fact is that they also suffer greatly under their Jihadi leadership. This isn't a trivial matter either:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x255450#256492
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x255450#256497
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x255450#256706
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x255450#256707
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x255450#256709
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x255450#256862

If you truly cared for Palestinians who do NOT have a voice and cannot defend themselves against Hamas/Fatah, etc ... you could at least admit that on a daily basis, under Jihadi leadership, life for them - and it's the same kind of oppression Arabs in neighboring countries outside of Israel suffer under, day by day, year by year - is horrible under a tyrannical fascist regime.

Imagine a Palestinian family, lots of children.....they're all advocates for true peace, they want to reach out to Israelis, they don't want their children indoctrinated with hate via Palestinian media as they want the media instead to become far more tolerant, they want more equal rights for women and religious minorities, etc. Hamas doesn't like this at all. The family suffers greatly for being collaborators. They may not even be part of Fatah. Some of the family members are killed for these views. Who is speaking up for them? It's certainly not you. You think this is so trivial and unimportant that our sole focus should remain only on Israel? Look again at those links above. You cannot claim to have real compassion for Palestinians when you continue to choose to look the other way and fall for Hamas/PLO propaganda. In fact, by IGNORING all this you are doing exactly what the Jihadi leadership wants you to do. You're taking the focus completely off of them, and therefore allowing this to happen perpetually.

[IndianaGreen]

174. Your crocodile tears for Palestinians are duly noted

Have you ever called for an end to the Occupation and return to pre-1967 borders? The answer to that question will tell everything we need to know about you.

[shira]

177. struck a nerve with you?

Have you ever spoken out about the oppression Palestinins suffer under their Jihadi leadership? Or how Palestinians within Lebanese refugee camps, for example, suffer needlessly? I never see this from hard leftists like yourself. Why?

And of course I'm against occupation and a return to '67 borders. If you had told me a decade ago that Israel would have made the CD/TABA 2000-01 offer and given back all of Gaza, I'd have been elated and guaranteed that by now there would have been an end to the conflict. Unlike you, however, the fact that terror only increased and we're even farther away from peace now than we were a decade ago changed my outlook.

[IndianaGreen]

178. Same old song from you.

No pun intended!

[Ken Burch]

184. The problem is, the policies the Israeli government has carried out since the death of Taba

have only made things worse, and CAN only make things worse.

You know this as well as anyone, shira.

How can you deny that it's futile for the Israeli government to keep doing what it's doing?

How can you deny that the policies the government and the IDF(assuming the IDF is still, in any meaningful way, subordinate TO the civilian government in Israel)are, in fact, not only oppressing Palestinians but endangering Israelis?

[Ken Burch]

185. shira, you KNOW that Operation Cast Lead can NEVER POSSIBLY result

in a change of the Palestinian leadership.

Or at least not possibly a change for the better.

You know that the pattern has been that ever generation of that leadership grew harsher and more inflexible in response to Israeli inflexibility.

When are you going to accept the fact that nothing the Israeli government is doing or has done can cause the changes in the Palestinian side that you say you want, and that the only thing that can do that is easing the repression, removing the West Bank settlements that the entire world regard as illegal, and letting the people of Palestine breathe?

[Ken Burch]

128. I've seen the video, and from what I could see, it didn't really show much of anything.

It was grainy footage of an IDF D-9 cat. Rachel, from what I could see, wasn't IN the footage.

[shira]

164. in video #2 look

abour 40 seconds in but also 5 minutes in and you'll see a little more footage that occured right after Rachel was hit.

[polly7]

74. Her last interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3JI-axaRF4&eurl=http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:y8ZYhwwmZwUJ:desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/03/12/rachel-corrie-murdered-by-the-s

[EFerrari]

87. Benefit performance to honor slain volunteer

Benefit performance to honor slain volunteer
Staff Report
Posted: 03/13/2009 11:20:00 PM PDT

A benefit performance of Arabic music and dance will be from 4 to 6:40 p.m. March 29 at World Dance Fitness at 40 Greenfield Ave. in San Anselmo.

The program will honor Rachel Corrie, a volunteer with the International Solidarity Movement who was struck by a bulldozer and killed during a protest trying to save a Palestinian home from demolition.

Donations of $15 to $20 are requested to help the Palestinians via the Rachel Corrie Foundation. The event is sponsored by 14 Friends of Palestine.

http://www.marinij.com/ci_11911608?source=rss

[polly7]

89. That's great! I wish I lived a whole lot closer, I'd love to see it. n/t

[UndertheOcean]

90. RIP rahcel

[proud2BlibKansan]

179. Rachel Corrie died 6 years ago today; from a friend who was with her when she died:

Today is the 6 year anniversary of the murder of my friend and comrade
Rachel Corrie. I was with her when she was crushed to death by a US-made
Caterpillar Israeli Military Bulldozer as she stood nonviolently
protecting a Palestinian civilian home. There are memorial services
happening all over the country, I will be presenting and performing at one
in Kansas City and will also be doing a live radio broadcast at 10pm
Central time that you can listen to online at http://www.kkfi.org/ (click
on "listen live" on the left). Below is a brand new poem I wrote to mark
this anniversary. Also below are lyrics of two other songs I have written
for her, and some links where you can see pictures and get more info. Feel
free to share all these with whoever you can.
much love and solidarity
-joe

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Poem for Rachel 6 years later
By Joe Carr

Rachel

6 years its been and the world’s still spinning
Revolution still coming but we’re no closer to winning
Bombs still falling
Bulldozers still roaring
Gaza still screaming
The blood still pouring

Rafah, oh Rafah
What’s left of Rafah still aching
Still bullet riddled and rubble piled
Still scratching at prison walls with nails still filed

The house you died defending
Was crushed with re-bar bending
The struggle seeming never ending

And the wall you died resisting
Still stands strong persisting
But now with massive holes
Through which some sun is glistening

Holes blown open by the men who shared their tea around the camp fire
Holes of a people fighting genocide
Like pin holes poked in a plastic bag wrapped around their heads
As they gasp for a few more breaths

Americans still cross enemy lines
To stand with their brothers and sisters not in front or behind
But beside
And then return to burst bubbles of ignorance
Some like me, war-torn and traumatized
Or worse

As the boot of war and occupation stomps down on the world
So many of us ride in the cracks on the bottom
But others like you and Tom, get smashed
Like Brian, blasted in the head, just two weeks before
With weapons meant for others that he paid for
Like Tristan, smashed in the head, just last Friday
We’ll have to start calling this

Shahid Remembrance Day

How many people have visited the site of your death
Memorialized with flowers
Desecrated by tank treads
Decorated by children’s tears and laughter

But I know you aren’t interested in the updates you can read on electronic
intifada
You would ask me, how do I feel

Well, sometimes I feel
Lost

It’s been 6 years and things have only gotten worse
6 years and we wonder in this desert of injustice
God knows how we thirst

Sometimes I feel
Hopeless

2 years went by and nobody mentioned Palestine
Until Gaza was burning and over a thousand had died
Now 2 months later and there’re no more constant updates from the Middle East
No more vigils and protests or people in the streets

The same 8 people are back to tirelessly advocating
The same few websites endlessly commentating

Now so many times I mention Palestine and someone says your name
Not knowing my connection
And I have to tell the story all over again

So many remember you, but forget the thousands of Palestinians
They remember you but have never heard of Tom, or James, or Nabila or Ali

Sometimes I feel bitter
That you left us to deal with all this on our own
Without your smile and creativity that made me feel so at home

And as this weekend marks the 6 year anniversary of another major tragedy
I feel like maybe we’ve wasted all this time

Like what do I have to show Palestinians from the last 6 years?
From the roller coaster of trial and failure, barrels of sweat and tears

In this time so many have such great hope for change
It’s kind of strange given how so many problems remain

But it is spring time, the time of renewal
Time to count our jewels
Time to plant seeds, and give them fuel

So may your body, now decomposed, be compost
To fertilize the struggle, that grows and grows

I look into your mother’s eyes, and see your spirit persevering
And it gives me strength to keep on steering
Though I know the end is not nearing

I bet you’re peering down and see us gathered here
Or maybe you’re among us if we look you might appear
The sheer knowledge of your existence has inspired oh so many
That we’ll remember you at 6 years, at 10, 15 and 20

And all the others we celebrate on this
Shahid Remembrance Day
Your example shines so bright
We’ll use it to light our way

As I’ve traveled this land speaking of your last stand
Still clutching to your hand, extending out of the sand

I accept that I cannot pull you out
But we
Might keep the rest of us
From being pulled under


A Dove’s Last Song
By Joe Carr
Released on "Plant the Olive Branch" 2003
Download MP3 for free at
http://www.cpt.org/hebron/carrcd/songs/A%20Dove%27s%20Last%20Song.mp3
Download or view slide show of pictures with song at
http://www.lovinrevolution.org/downloads.htm

Let me tell you the story
Of a gory glory
One grand last stand in the land of holy

Rachel gave her life
Defending native rights
And we will never see her legacy die

When the planes hit the towers on 9/11
She knew that her personal war had begun
She sought to stop terror where it may be
And her eyes turned towards Washington DC

And to the army of Israel, the IDF
Exhaling death, with each breath, till there’s nothing left
They kill, catch and cripple women, children, and men
Who’s only crime is that they’re Palestinian

So Rachel went off to Rafah, the forgotten town
Where ISM’s the only internationals around
The world’s fourth strongest power hides our eyes from it all
They create a prison state with guard-towers and walls.

It’s the most impoverished place in all of Palestine
And it’s the sight where the most folks fight and die
It’s one of the poorest and most deadly cities in the world
No tourist trap for ordinary college girls

She thought her western white privilege might do some good
As could other caring people in her neighborhood
She sought to set up a relationship
And Oly sister-city project in the Gaza Strip

So at the tip of January, she said her good-byes
And hit the skies for the land of scary dies and cries
When her plane hit the ground
The word got around
That “Raja” the blond American was in town

She found a fondness for the people and they cherished her so
A white flower in the desert budding peace and hope
Her light-hearted spirit was a breath of fresh air
In this war-zone full of poverty and despair

The children were her favorite and she tried to play
A game of football on the pavement almost every day
When she wasn’t off protecting workers fixing wells
Or networking and connecting NGOs, I could tell

Her initiative and organizing skills were ample
She’s the best kind of leader, she lead by example
I’ll never forget her dedication and commitment
To solidarity and the spirit of resistance

It was this firm stance that opened the door
To her final dance opposing hatred and war
Her final dance that rocked me to my core

On the 16th of March, we marched to the field
To lesson demolition with our bodies as shields

We took on Goliath but instead of stones
We had florescent orange jackets and a megaphone
Our known passports projected and our pale white skin
We thought we were protected from racist violence

Rachel was the first to prove that we were wrong
When she knelt in her pew to sing her final song
When she raised her voice to sing her final song

Potecting the home of Doctor Samir
The family of whom she’d grown to hold dear

She couldn’t let the dozer crush their hopes and dreams
So she pleaded with the soldier, “Go home please!
Disobey your commander and just leave these people be,
For if you remain here you’re ganna have to deal with me.”

I plead my words you’ll head
Cause I won’t concede
Till you recede
I won’t leave till this family is freed
And I won’t concede, till you recede

And she didn’t cead
But neither did he

As the dozer came closer, she climbed the mound
And met the soldier at his shoulders for a final show down
Too terrified to join her I raised my lens
And now those few famous photos document the event

She centered into his eyes
But he continued to drive
And pushed her down to the ground till she was drowned out of sight

We found the favorite of our band
Wholly crushed by Holy Land

Wholly crushed by Holy Land
And I can still see her hand
Extending out of the sand
I still reach for her hand extending out of the sand

The man had seen her there pleading, but he didn’t see a human being
A life to be valued with true compassion and feeling

She was concealing terrorists in his twisted mind frame
But somehow he missed he was doing the same
He’s gotta do what he’s told
And turn his heart hard and cold
Required to kill at 18 years old
He too’s a victim of oppression from religion and war
No excuse for his aggression but a reason for

His duty was to drive a diesel death machine
With the treads of terror and the blade of pain
Powered by hate and fueled by fear
With a blend of blood and money oil the gears

US designed, supplied and died green
Modified for the Israeli military machine
The Caterpillar Corporation’s the nation’s biggest fan
They make a killing off of filling the destruction demand

It was a Caterpillar® killer that killed her
They made the Caterpillar® killer
He drove a Caterpillar® killer, to kill her
It was a Caterpillar®, that killed her

As her song was censored and her dance denied
We waved and raved “She’s underneath!” we cried
But he threw it in reverse and cursed her again
Dragging the blade over serrated skin

Torn inside and horrified
We rushed to her side
And tried to keep her alive
Till more help could arrive
The EMTs were an all too experienced crew
Rushed her to the hospital but what the hell could they do?

Her spine was snapped and her chest was smashed
Her skull was cracked and her lungs had collapsed
Far surpassed what the under-stocked doctors could fix
They said “Allah yar hamha”, at twenty past six

They wheeled her out a white sheet shading her head
“It’s over”, my comrade Mohammed said
I couldn’t believe it and I cried to his chest
I still can’t conceive her soul is really at rest
No I still can’t conceive her soul is really at rest

We had services and ceremonies, demonstrations
We did hundreds of interviews and presentations
The world was aware of the vicious attack
Just as Bush and Blair began bombing Iraq

But no distraction
The world rose up and took action

And at many anti-war demos we
Honored her memory
Inspired by her fire now forever burnin’ in me
Rachel’s dedication made the nations fight war
And more have come to Rafah than have ever before

And ISM recruits, have gone through the roof
As have many pro-freedom and pro-peace groups
And we see troupes of doves in a yearly Oly street procession
And a Rachel Corrie Memorial Center for Children
And Rachel’s vision, of the sister-city’s been realized
Olympia and Rafah will forever be tied

All her Oly family will keep it alive and
We will never see
Her legacy
die

No matter how hard they try
They may have crushed her body and crushed her bones
But they’ll never crush her spirit that lives on and on
On and on
From dawn to dawn
A crescendoing, never-ending freedom song

Now every time I lock-down or block town in the street
Every time I write a media or theatre piece
Every time I build a puppet or deliver a speech
Every time my mind’s on Palestine and all the shahid

Every time a freedom fighter dies for a cause
Or we ride with rules inside and don’t abide by their laws
Every time we push our limits and make cultural ties
Every time we use our privilege to assist the denied

Every time we take stand for another man’s strife
We honor Rachel Corrie and continue her life
We will never see
Her legacy
die

Her life is documented in verses and prose
We read the details in her emails to her folks and her bros
And from her journal we can learn all of her thoughts and ideas
And we can study testimony of her family and peers

We know she was a healer who worked in mental health
An Oly girl and greener who loved to teach herself
She was an artist, writer, painter a creator of beauty
We know she was a leader who headed her duty

Yeah a maker of peace who didn’t cease to the end
She was a daughter, a sister, a neighbor and a friend

She was a martyr, a true shahida
She had died for freedom, houreeya

For she had come to Rafah to stop the tanks
That were built, bought and brought by her brothers the yanks
And though they’re stronger than ever
They won’t be forever
Extend your hand to Rachel’s and we’ll stand up together, yeah

We’ll never see
Her legacy
die

No, no, no, no, no
Cause true solidarity is such a rarity
And she shared it with me with such clarity
Graffiti, writing in Rafah reads her glory
Rachel Corrie:
An American citizen with Palestinian blood
An American citizen with Palestinian blood
An American citizen with Palestinian blood
An American citizen with Palestinian blood


She Was My Sister
By Joe Carr
(sung to the tune of Simon and Garfunkle’s "He Was My Brother")

She was my sister
Two years older than I
She was my sister
23 years old the day she died

Freedom Fighter
They cursed my sister to her face
Go home outsider
Rafah is ganna be your burying place

She was praying on her knees
When a war machine came along
He crushed my sister dead
Because she hated what was wrong

She was my sister
Tears can’t bring her back to me
She was my sister
And she died so her sisters could be free
She died so her sisters could be free

LINKS:
www.myspace.com/lovinrevolution
http://www.lovinrevolution.org/rachel_pictures.htm
www.rachelcorrie.org
www.rachelcorriefoundation.org
www.palsolidarity.org
www.electronicintifada.net
www.freegaza.org

[polly7]

180. Thank you very much for your personal knowledge, poetry and songs.

She nor what she stood for, will ever be forgotten.

[ShadesOfGrey]

181. Thinking of you today Rachel. You will never be forgotten. nt