Hamas Is Not Going Away

[Idealism]

RAMALLAH - Despite intensive efforts by Israel, the international community and a number of Arab leaders to weaken and destroy Hamas through economic, punitive and military action, the Islamist organisation continues to be a force to reckon with.

Hamas won free and fair democratic elections in January 2006. The U.S. pushed for these elections, which were monitored by international observers including ex-U.S. president Jimmy Carter, and Israel permitted them to be held.

Hamas has since then been dominant, though it took effective control in June 2007, more than a year after its election victory. The Gaza Strip, which the resistance group controls, took a serious battering during Israel's 22-day military assault, codenamed Operation Cast Lead.

The coastal territory has also been economically crippled by nearly two years of an Israeli embargo which has hermetically sealed Gaza off from the rest of the world, preventing the import of all but a tiny flow of humanitarian aid and goods.

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/02/07-2

[Idealism]

1. The last part of this story is the only real use

Israeli columnist and analyst Akiva Elder noted in the daily Haaretz that Israel's continual denial of the reality of Hamas as a legitimate political entity was short-sighted.

For 20 years Israel has tried to destroy the movement using carrots and sticks alternately. The only difference between the ruling Kadima party's leader and minister of foreign affairs, Tzipi Livni, and the more right-wing opposition Likud party leader Binyamin Netanyahu is the size of the clubs to be used, argued Eldar.

"Precisely because of the many children killed in Gaza, Cast Lead has been assured a place of honour in the ethos of the struggle of the Palestinian David, armed with primitive Qassams, and the Israeli Goliath, with his F-16s," said Eldar.

"When they hear the proud declarations of Israel's leaders, to the effect that deterrence has been restored, Hamas's leaders certainly laugh themselves to death, and not just because of the rockets that continue to fall on the people of Ashkelon.

"The threat of a few more bombs on Gaza deters them like the death penalty deters a suicide bomber on the way to carry out an attack," said Eldar.

Only a long-term ceasefire, it seems, accompanied by a real diplomatic context, can pull the rug of popular support out from under Hamas and restore it to its natural proportions.

[GoesTo11]

2. Hamas is not a long-term player on the world stage

They are a thuggish little terrorist group, supported by Iran and other mischief makers. They do no good for anybody - they produce nothing - oh, yeah, they distribute pittances of money from outsiders to Gazans and pretend that it is a personal gift from their leaders. They maintain power within Gaza through fear and killing. When these types go down, they go fast.

[Idealism]

3. I understand your disdain for Hamas, but this isn't about them.

The idea that Hamas embodies will not go away. Hamas may come and go, but you cannot kill resistance- certainly not by maiming it. Until Israel realizes this, there will not be peace in the region. They can try to wait Hamas out, but unless they kill every Palestinian in Gaza and the West Bank, you will always have resistance.

[LeftishBrit]

14. Hamas is not just about 'resistance'..

It is about *violent*. *murderous* resistance, not only toward Israelis, but toward Palestinians who disagree with them. And about religious-right extremism.

I'm against the bombing of Gaza; for ending the occupation; and for including Hamas in talks *if* they're willing to take part. But Hamas are not an admirable group.

[Idealism]

23. Fact is if Palestinians weren't repressed, there wouldn't be a Hamas

Hamas is first and foremost a liberation movement. The violence is part of it, but not paramount. If they had nothing to struggle against, they would not be there. You can call it whatever name you would like, but if it isn't named Hamas it would be something else.

[aranthus]

25. It's what they want to "liberate" that makes them the problem.

If all Hamas wanted was to get Israel out of the West Bank and Gaza, then they wouldn't need to resort to terrorism. Hamas wants Israel gone so that they can create a fundamentalist Muslim state in all of Palestine. They resort to terrorism to prevent a peaceful solution.

[Idealism]

26. You act like things were great for Palestinians before Hamas

They were still occupied, having their land stolen, having an Apartheid wall being built to hem them in, having to rely on humanitarian aid just to survive. Hamas has only been in control of Gaza since 2007, the Palestinian suffering has been going on long before this.

Hamas has offered long term cease-fires and calmness to Israel many times, but Israel won't concede land and won't recognize Palestinian rights. This is the heart of the problem. Israel refuses to give up the illegal settlements on stolen land and it is costing them peace. All 22 members of the Arab League said they would normalize relations with Israel, full recognition and all, total peace, if Israel would go back to the 1967 borders. Israel has refused the offer. It is called the Arab Peace Initiative, go google it if you doubt the claim.

Gaza's Hamas leader Haniyeh has said that Hamas would accept a Palestinian state with 1967 borders.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035414.html

The Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, said on Saturday his government was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders.

The Hamas leader spoke at a meeting with 11 European parliamentarians who sailed from Cyprus to the Gaza Strip to protest Israel's naval blockade of the territory. Haniyeh told his guests Israel rejected his initiative.

[ohio2007]

39. Yasir

Arafat was the don and the people voted for the unknown evil when finally given the reprieve due to his death

[Idealism]

41. What does that even mean?

[ohio2007]

63. If you don't know....find out

Is his wife still set up in Europe with Palestinian hand servants ?

[inthebrain]

38. Oh what a load of crap!!!

Hamas is a liberation movement?

I should think not. They are just as much a right wing oppressive movement as any other you could rattle off the top of your head. They ain't out to liberate the working classes in palestine from jack shit. They are only concerned with their own position amongst the ruling class in the region and use their subjects as pawns in the big game.

They ain't out to liberate anyone.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[Idealism]

40. Working classes? Ruling class in the region?

What the hell are you going on about? Gaza has 50% unemployment, although that number will jump soon thanks to Cast Lead, and the West Bank hovers around 30% thanks to the settlements needing cheap labor to build illegal houese.

Perhaps you should read up about Hamas because you clearly have a skewed perception. For that matter, you might want to read up on the history of Palestinians period. Hamas has only been in control of Gaza since 2007. It isn't like it was a nice place to live before that...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas.htm

[inthebrain]

42. Oh, I know all about Hamas. They were and still are in souther Lebanon

Their interest to take their place amongst the ruling classes of the world. They really do not give a shit about the people themselves. Although they do need the people to blow themselves for their cause. Even if it means killing buses full of Israeli school children.

You think these fucking assholes want to see the working classes align along class lines to better their situration? That's the last thing these fucking assholes want.

When Hamas starts advocating true liberation of the working classes through handing over the means of production to them perhaps then we can talk of them being a true liberation movement.

But they ain't.

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that should Hamas or even the PLO meet their ends the conditions for working people in that region are not going to change.

Why?

Because they have no interest in any of it. Their aims as a religious fundmentalist group are no different than the American Ruling class. As I stated earlier, these people NEED the populace divided among ethnic, religious and racial lines. These fuckers are the ones serving this shit up. They want the fruits of the working classes labors.

They ain't no better than the Israeli government either.

[Idealism]

43. Wow... what are you talking about?

This isn't some concept out of Marxism, with anyone "controlling the means of production." There is no "upper class" and "working class" in Gaza. When 80% of the people in a region only stave off hunger because of humanitarian aid from NGO's, there isn't a class structure. There is no industry in Gaza. There wasagriculture till the IDF came through and put an end to most of that. There were 3500 factories in Gaza before the Israeli blockade. There are a couple hundred operating now. The biggest thing "holding" down these people is Israel, not Hamas.

If Hamas did not care at all about their people, why do they have senior care? Why did they build schools, hospitals, and mosques? Why did they crack down the lawlessness of the area, by pinching the clans that used to run wild in Gaza under the inept Fatah government? Obviously, you choose to read one side of the story and ignore the other.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[Idealism]

45. I don't even know what to say to that. Seriously, you may need help

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Idealism]

47. You should read what I posted again

and tell me where I once "suck up to right wing religious fundamentalists."

Not every Hamas member is an AK-47 wielding, suicide-bombing, terrorist. There is the Qassam Brigades, who should be locked in jail and tried for war crimes, but the average Hamas party member does not engage in violence. If you think so, you are ignorant. But, as I learned long ago, we Democrats do not have the intelligence majority by as far a margin as some might thing.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

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[Idealism]

55. Uh oh, you've figured me all out... Too bad personal insults get you zero credibility

[Recursion]

60. Are you confusing Hamas and Hezbollah?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

49. WTF are you even talking about?

Your post oozes ignorance.

Please educate yourself before making such ridiculous pronouncements. Honestly, you embarrass yourself.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

53. No... you tipped your hat that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Ignorance abounds here. You'll fit right in.

[iconicgnom]

4. It's just the name of their democratically elected govt.

Their govt. comes from themselves.

You make up a fiction, just so you can hide behind it when committing war crimes.
Your contempt is always justified when aimed against your fiction, and you think you can use this to excuse your actions.

The truth isn't just words. The truth is fact on the ground.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. More ignorance on your part

Hamas is not the democratically elected government any more than Repukes under Gingrich were during the Clinton administration. Hamas is not just in Gaza and many of its upper leadership was in Damascus during the fighting.

[iconicgnom]

19. More fiction.

[Vegasaurus]

20. A vote does not a democracy make

not when you murder anyone who doesn't agree with you, have no civil or human rights.

Hamas is a bunch of murderous thugs who should never have been given the opportunity to govern, since they have no idea how to do it.

[Idealism]

24. 41% of the population voted for Fatah

Did Hamas murder half of all Palestinians? They only won 44% of the vote...

[Vegasaurus]

62. You either look at them as the "democractically elected representatives"

or you don't.

People want to say that they were democractically elected, and that makes Gaza a democracy?

In another universe.

Theocracy, honor killings, stonings, sharia law, no freedom of speech, press, religion.

Sounds like a miserable place to live under Hamas.

[Idealism]

64. There are millions of miserable places to live

Gaza is definitely one of them, but again, it wasn't covered in roses and gold before Hamas moved in.

Hate them all you want, the elections were meticulously watched by international organizations and deemed free and fair. They are the democratically elected representatives.

Was Bush not a democratically elected President? I disagree with everything he did in office, but does that mean he isn't the President?

[iconicgnom]

65. Your point is important.

When a democracy is properly recognized or acknowledged to exist, how the country acts under the leadership of its govt can properly be attributed to the people. The people are held responsible because ultimately they are responsible.

Of course the people aren't all responsible in the same way - they are responsible because they all participate in the same democratic body, even when it's only to express indifference and acquiescence by not voting.

This is how I question the descriptions "Israel's war with Hamas" and "Israel's war with Hezbollah". I say that these descriptions are not valid, they misrepresent the facts and serve propagandistic goals. I don't go along with suppositions that Hamas and Hezbollah are nothing but creatures of Iran. Likewise I don't agree that Israel is somehow "owned" by the US, or vice-versa, such that one should or even can answer for the other.

[EFerrari]

5. You can't kill an idea. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

7. Ignorant violent fundies can indeed be killed and the survivors educated in the error of their ways

[EFerrari]

8. That's the premise of most right wing authoritarian states, isn't it? n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

9. No, that is how you have to deal with true evil, regardless of source or ideology

Historically it has been the price to eliminate such serious evil. Look at WWII Germany. Castro, Mao, Che and others have gone down that same road. There are times in history that the bad guys need to be wiped out for progress to have a chance.

Those who defend or rationalize for Hamas are supporting a group of stupid violent fundies. Their own coreligionists are not supporting them nor are their fellow Arabs. Abbas and the PA are not angels nor are the Israelis but they are light years ahead of Hamas.

[EFerrari]

10. The idea that you are the arbiter of "true evil" is also an authoritairan concept.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. I have never claimed that authority, but with Hamas, its far from one person or nation saying it

[EFerrari]

12. That's inaccurate, not to mention, hyperbolic and I think you know that.

[pelsar]

15. and yet evil does exist...

pot pol, hitler, taliban to name a few of the more famous ones...and yes there is good values and bad values, evil values based on western democratic values are to be cut down when ever it "shows up"......

to believe that the taliban values are equal to that of western democratic values is ......well words fail me..... unbelievable

[EFerrari]

30. Reducing your enemy to "true evil" is not a strategy for real victory

nor is it a basis for discussion. It is an attempt to control opinion and that's pretty much all it is.

[pelsar]

56. its a called a value judgement...

it has nothing to do with "controlling opinion" or strategy for defeating it........

its quite simple really: killing people for wearing glasses (pot pol) is nothing more than evil, killing people because the belong to a certain religion is evil


what part is confusing you here?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

51. yes. Add the gov't that massacred 1400, maimed over 5,000 and destroyed 14,000 homes to that list.

For no apparent reason other than it felt like it.

Truly evil.

[Shaktimaan]

69. for no apparent reason other than it felt like it?

you can't possibly be serious.

you really can't think of any other possible reason for the action in Gaza other than that the Israeli government felt like destroying Gazan infrastructure and killing Palestinians?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

70. Operation Cast Lead met no discernible objective.

Hamas is stronger than ever.
Hamas has continued rocket capabilities.
More Palestinians than ever believe in armed resistance.

I call that a failure.

So... why did they bother?

[pelsar]

71. its the objective you dont see..or want to see....

the change in "the game".....thats what it was all about, how that plays out is yet to be seen......or for a quieter time or not......in the meantime its been quieter

[ProgressiveMuslim]

72. The game changed all right. But did those who profess to want peace come out on top?

Hell no.

What OCL did was expose the lying liars and the lies they tell!

Change the game is right. up the ante, increase the power and pull of the radicals. Congrats Israel! Kudos on a job well done! OCL will guarantee another 20 years without a "partner for peace." Just think of all the dunams of land that can be stolen! Envision all the shiny new settlements! Whoo hoo! Mission Accomplished!

Perhaps it was a test run. 1,400 murdered with nary an outcry. Next time, just think of the all the civilians the IDF will be able to kill without consequence!!! Whoo hoo! Makes me salivate just thinking about it, doesn't it? 3,000? Why stop there? Why not 10,000?

So in the meantime, those Sderotniks have had no shock. Yay! It guess it was worth 1,400 lives, 5,000 bodies maimed and 14,000 homes, right? the IDF got rid of a few militants, "showed those Arabs who's boss" and established a nice new settlement!

A banner month for the nation of Israel, don't you agree?

And Pelsar, I truly doubt you'd be so sanguine if it were 1,400 funerals on your side of the line. That's beyond modern imagination, isn't it?

[Shaktimaan]

73. I could ask the same thing of Hamas...

What has their Qassam barrages brought them? Destroyed infrastructure. No economy. Barely enough food and essentials. 1200 dead Palestinians. Many more wounded. Wrecked houses, schools and Mosques.

So why did they bother? Are they any closer to ending the occupation? Actually, they were closer before. Clearly ending the occupation isn't Hamas' main goal here. So why are they doing this?

I guess they're continuing their attacks because they feel like it. Who knows, maybe they'll get lucky and hit a kindergarten. It won't bring them any closer to ending the occupation, but it sure would feel great for them.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

75. There is a clear objective.

To make the occupation as painful as possible for the people of Israel.

Personally, I think that international BDS would make the occupation WAY more painful for WAY MORE Israelis.

Actually, the country you support has hit schools. Your faux "they give us no choice except to try to wipe them out" hand-wringing hardly lessens the sheer immorality of those acts.

[pelsar]

76. to make it painful?......did they not realize there are no "free lunches"

thats it?...thats why they used to try to kills israelis daily.....to make it "painful"........and now their is this surprise that israel just didnt let them?

especially with the history of lebanon a year early?........leadership demands a little bit brainwork to chose the best route, unless of course your religious and have god on yourside, and a bunch of supporters that care more for nationalism than for the lives of ones own citizens

[ProgressiveMuslim]

78. Oh, do you think that Israel should be able to oppress millions with no consequence?

Geez, no wonder the occupation has lasted more than 40 years.

Free land. Cheap labor when you want it. All the water you could use. Keep your nutjobs busy.

Why give it up?

[Shaktimaan]

77. what occupation are you referring to exactly?

The West Bank and East Jerusalem? Or all of Israel? Hamas isn't trying to convince Israel to abandon the OPT and retreat to the Green Line. They are very clear about their objectives. Hamas considers all of Mandate Palestine as rightfully theirs. So are you suggesting that Hamas' objective from all of the rocket fire is to just basically make life in Israel as painful as possible for the Israelis?

That would mean that Hamas is actually just doing it because they feel like it. There doesn't seem to be any tangible goal that can be reached by simply trying to make living in Israel as painful as possible for the Israelis. There isn't any potential benefit for the Palestinians that Hamas' actions are likely to bring. Yet the cost is very high. Especially if their sole objective is to cause the Israelis pain. That isn't an achievement which brings benefits to anyone.

That's one helluva pointless objective, PM. Is it really worth it for them to go through so much pain themselves just so they can bring a little pain to some Israelis?

Actually, the country you support has hit schools.

Ah, yes, but the key difference is that the schools are not Israel's actual target.

Your faux "they give us no choice except to try to wipe them out" hand-wringing hardly lessens the sheer immorality of those acts.

Well, the problem is that they just won't stop with the terrorism, you know? And I believe that "Sheer immorality" would be to do nothing at all. Legitimate self-defense is never immoral. Bear in mind that "retribution" does not qualify as "self-defense" as it offers no defensive benefits.

[Vegasaurus]

80. The "occupation of all of greater Palestine" obviously

This is the only "end of the occupation" that will get Arabs to quit attempting to kill every possible Jew in the middle east.

There is no other solution to them.

[GoesTo11]

16. Even you have to admit that suicide bombing in pizza shops and buses is evil.

Or is that just to authoritarian.

If so, isn't it also authoritarian for Hamas to decide that people in those pizza shops and buses should die?

[EFerrari]

29. Right. Just as bombing hospitals and warehouses full of humanitarian aid is evil.

[GoesTo11]

35. OK, I can see you don't want to just come out and say Hamas does evil

It's like the time Fonzie tried to say he was wrong, but he just couldn't get it out.

[EFerrari]

36. When you resort to personal attacks, you lose. n/t

[LeftishBrit]

13. Look also at Iraq and what trying to 'eliminate serious evil' did there!

And are you seriously suggesting that Castro was/is sufficiently evil that Cuba should have been bombed to get rid of him? It's interesting that you mention Castro but not Pinochet. Would you also have recommended bombing Chile?

Also the philosophy of 'wiping out the bad guys to make progress' is nowadays either cowardly (you'll only go after the weaker groups and countries where it's possible) or suicidal (goodbye world :nuke:) No one seriously considered trying to wipe out Mao and the 'bad guys' in China because China is the biggest country in the world and has nukes. If they had, we wouldn't be here posting. ('We will all bake together when we bake/ There'll be nobody present at the wake!' - Tom Lehrer.)

[Dick Dastardly]

27. That is actually not true. Ike considered a nuclear strike on China in 1958

The Soviets also asked us to join them on a strike on China in the 60s

[oberliner]

28. I thought Ike was against it while the military folks were pushing for it

Washington, D.C., April 30, 2008 - The U.S. Air Force expected to use nuclear weapons against China during the Taiwan Strait crisis of 1958, but President Eisenhower required the Air Force to plan initially to use conventional bombs against Chinese forces if the crisis escalated, according to a previously secret Air Force history obtained from a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit and posted today by the National Security Archive. Eisenhower's instructions astounded the Air Force leadership, but according to Bernard Nalty, the author of one of the studies released today, U.S. policymakers recognized that atomic strikes had "inherent disadvantages" because of the fall-out danger in the region as well as the risk of escalation.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nukevault/ebb249/index.htm

[Dick Dastardly]

33. Yes Ike ruled it out ,but the point was that attacking China was seriously considered which LB said

was never done. That was the only point, not whether it was insane or not, right or wrong,what the final decision on the matter was or anything else besides that it was seriously considered.

[LeftishBrit]

34. OK - point taken - but luckily cooler heads prevailed

Or we wouldn't be here to discuss it!

[Dick Dastardly]

57. I agree that luckily cooler heads prevailed. That said

You are wrong again that we wouldnt be here to discuss it because China was not a Nuclear power until 1964 and would have had no way to retaliate. Even when the Soviets asked us to join them in attacking China in the 60s when they were a nuke power, they did not have a delivery system capable of hitting us especially after a first strike. Even today China does not have the ability to hit the US on a massive scale. They only have about 20 ICBMs that are old, innaccurate and are not MIRVed(multiple independent reentry vehicles)warheads. A first strike by the US would wipe about their ability to retaliate, It would not even have to be a massive first strike by the US due to the accuracy of our warheads. Even if one or two did survive then our ABM system could deal with that. The Chinese capability is nothing like the Soviets or the Russians today in which you would be correct that we would not be here to discuss it.

I am not advocating any of this at all, and dont in any way, but just expressing the reality of the situation.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

50. Areyou talking about the gov't of Israel? Or Hamas?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

54. Clearly Hamas, Israel is mostly secular, well educated, and for the most part non violent.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

59. Then even greater shame on them for the terror they reign on the people of Palestine.

Those who know better should do better, dont you agree?

[GoesTo11]

17. The "idea" of Hamas should and will die on its own

The Palestinians themselves will throw Hamas on the ash heap of history. The ideas of Hamas are not peace and freedom for f the Palestinians, but enslavement of the Palestinians by self-aggrandizing and ruthless Muslim religious fundamentalist fanatics, along with hate, violence and death for Israel and Jews.

I understand that many here at DU embrace these ideas, and I don't wish to comment on their merit, but merely to predict that they will not endure.

[Vegasaurus]

18. They will endure

as long as there are supporters and enablers of keeping the Palestinians in misery for the next few decades.

Considering that some people would rather see terrorists and violent resistance and Hamas as the "way" for Palestinians, and that they would rather the Paliestinans continue to live on global aid rather than be "slaves" to Israel (i.e. have sustainable WORK), and that they continue to press for "right of return" (which is never happening) or a "single state" (ditto)

Palestinians don't need these kind of "friends", or supporters.

They aren't helping the people at all.

[EFerrari]

32. The biggest enablers of radicals in Gaza are in the Israeli government.

Take it to them.

[Emit]

21. I don't follow. Are you saying

'that many here at DU embrace enslavement of the Palestinians by self-aggrandizing and ruthless Muslim religious fundamentalist fanatics, along with hate, violence and death for Israel and Jews'?
:shrug:

[bemildred]

22. It's like the Tooth Fairy or Easter Bunny or Santa Claus.

If you really, really believe in it, then it must be true; and future history will have to bend to the strength of your belief. The Tooth Fairy is REAL.

Personally, I think this sort of "thinking" reflects a poor understanding of how things work, but you can't reason with it, almost by definition. It's "faith-based" like saying a catechism or mantra, a verbal formula intended to shore up a belief-system.

[EFerrari]

31. Hate, violence, death? Why does this sound so familiar?

When you try to crush a people, they will fight back. When you set out to crush their moderate leaders, they will embrace more radical ones. You choose your own adventure in this situation as in most situations.

[Recursion]

61. What do you think "the idea" of Hamas is? Also...

...why do you think they are getting more traction among the population than secular nationalist movements like Fatah?

Hint: could it be because Fatah did everything asked of them (recognize Israel, renounce violence) and got absolutely nothing in return except for expansion of West Bank settlements? Hmmm?

When Israel and the US restore their credibility as partners in peace, nationalist movements like Fatah may have a chance again. However, we in the west and Israel have decided by our rejection of Fatah's peace overtures that we wanted a group like Hamas in charge. We decided that. Why we blame the Palestinians for our decision is beyond me.

[shira]

67. are you serious?

You think merely renouncing violence in English (while inciting it in Arabic and rewarding it) and recognizing Israel (not as a Jewish state, mind you) is enough? What does that cost Fatah? Nothing more than paper and words.

Good grief.

[Shaktimaan]

79. what are you talking about?

Hint: could it be because Fatah did everything asked of them (recognize Israel, renounce violence) and got absolutely nothing in return except for expansion of West Bank settlements? Hmmm?

Ummmm, no. Definitely not. Obviously not. Because Fatah did not meet a single one of its responsibilities under Oslo. You think Fatah did EVERYTHING asked of them? Really? OK, then you won't mind listing a few of them off. Really, I would love to hear what Fatah did that Israel asked of them. Oh, let's see here. recognize Israel... Arafat wrote a letter. That's all. The PLO never actually got around to editing any of their official documents that state the opposite, (as they had agreed to do) so they have not really managed to complete that task yet.

Now, renouncing violence... that's really funny, right there. What about al aqsa martyrs brigade? You know, the terrorist group affiliated with Fatah that formed during the second intifada. Or do you still count that requirement as fulfilled by Fatah because all of its soldiers formed a subsidiary organization to handle all of the wet-work? That would be as if I renounced violence and stuck to it by making sure I only hired hit men and never did the jobs myself. Not to mention that the PA never did anything to prosecute any of the other groups that were staging huge terrorist attacks against Israel, like Hamas or Islamic Jihad. In fact, the PA didn't even end up arresting any of the people who dragged those two Israeli soldiers out of a PA prison, lynched them and mutilated the bodies.

But hey, don't let me stop you from dropping some science. I'm dying to hear what other commitments you believe Fatah religiously stuck to. Maybe you just have the two sides mixed up! Because Israel actually fulfilled every single one of its requirements under Oslo, and even made a few substantial concessions that weren't mentioned in it at all. Yet they got absolutely nothing in return. OK, that's untrue. They got an unprecedented spike in suicide bombing and Qassam rocket attacks. They also got an intifada, let's not forget about that. What else? Hmmm. Oh yeah... the election of a terrorist group committed to Israel's destruction who refused to recognize any of the agreements that Fatah was busy ignoring anyway.

OK, seriously, where do you get your information from?

[ohio2007]

37. democracy, Hamas style is not going away

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lQ6xUq7MxE&NR=1

[wellst0nev0ter]

58. Many In The Israel-First Crowd Seem To Forget

That Hamas is only here because Israel marginalized Fatah. Refused to work with them when they "withdrew" from Gaza. It seems like Israel is always the victim, never has responsibility for anything.

[Shaktimaan]

66. when Israel withdraw from Gaza?

What are you talking about? Israel organized the withdrawal with the PA.

What do you mean they "refused to work with them?"

[shira]

68. when Israel withdrew from Gaza, they negotiated the crossings agreement with the PA

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3169505,00.html

Rather than not work with the PA, they did just the opposite of putting a "siege" on Gaza. But Hamas soon came to power and refused to recognize any PA/Israel agreements.

[ohio2007]

74. Amnesty accuses Hamas of eliminating opponents

Amnesty international slams Hamas

GENEVA (AFP) – Amnesty International on Tuesday accused Hamas of waging a campaign to kill or maim scores of Palestinian opponents in the Gaza Strip since the end of December.

The human rights group said in a report that at least two dozen men have been shot dead by gunmen from the Palestinian militia that governs the Gaza Strip since December 27.

"Scores of others have been shot in the legs, knee-capped or inflicted with other injuries intended to cause severe disability, subjected to severe beatings ... or otherwise tortured or ill-treated," it added.

"Hamas forces and militias in the Gaza Strip have engaged in a campaign of abductions, deliberate and unlawful killings, torture and death threats against those they accuse of 'collaborating' with Israel, as well as opponents and critics," the report said.

The victims included members of Palestinian Authority security forces and members of Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas's Fatah party, Amnesty said.

The campaign began shortly after the beginning of the three-week Israeli military offensive in the Gaza Strip on December 27 and continued after the ceasefire on January 18, according to Amnesty.


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