Reuters: Israeli warplanes bomb in Gaza after mortar attacks

[Turborama]

By Nidal al-Mughrabi Sun Feb 1, 2009 4:17pm EST

GAZA (Reuters) - Israeli aircraft bombed Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip on Sunday, the Islamist group said, after Prime Minister Ehud Olmert vowed a "disproportionate" response to mortar fire that injured three Israelis.

The aircraft carried out three strikes but there were no casualties. One attack was on a security headquarters in a village in central Gaza that residents said had been vacated after Israel telephoned warnings to Palestinians to leave buildings that housed any weapons.

The other two strikes were on suspected sites of tunnels along the border with Egypt, Hamas said. The Israeli military had no immediate comment.

The Israelis wounded by mortar fire included two soldiers and the first Israeli civilian hurt since a January 18 truce ended Israel's 22-day offensive in the coastal enclave. They were struck by shrapnel, medics said.

About a dozen rockets and mortar bombs fired from Gaza struck Israel on Sunday, most causing no casualties, the military said.

A wing of al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a group belonging to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah faction, said it fired some of the rockets, but not all were claimed.

Israeli leaders have taken a hard line against rocket fire in the run-up to a February 10 national election, which opinion polls predict right-wing leader Benjamin Netanyahu will win.

"The government's position was from the outset that if there is shooting at the residents of the south, there will be a harsh Israeli response that will be disproportionate," Olmert, who is not a candidate, said at the weekly cabinet meeting.

Continued: http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCATRE5100OY20090201

[Idealism]

1. Sigh

When Israel breaks the cease-fire, they reason its to "remind them not to engage in violence." But when Hamas or another militant group retaliates for that, it is self-defense when Israel bombs them...

[Chulanowa]

2. So wait a second here...

Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade claims responsability for mortar attacks
Israel retaliates by targeting Hamas.
Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade is a military branch of the Fatah party, Hamas' political rivals
Hamas has accused Fatah in Gaza of collaborating with Israeli forces...

You know, I'm usually not one to engage in conspiracy theory, but... This one may be too obvious to really qualify as "conspiracy".

[subsuelo]

3. When Gazan men women and children die

Nobody will put up much a fuss anyway (nobody with the power to stop it, anyway *cough*USA*cough*)

[Turborama]

5. Yeah, that part got me scratching my head too.... n/t

[Emit]

9. Israel holds Hamas responsible for all attacks coming from the territory.

~snip~... at least 10 rockets were fired into Israel, injuring three and drawing ominous promises of retaliation from the government. Hamas has not taken responsibility for the new attacks, some of which have been claimed by smaller groups. But Israel says it holds Hamas, which has ruled Gaza since seizing power in June 2007, responsible for all attacks coming from the territory.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/02/israel-palestine-gaza-elections

[Behind the Aegis]

10. Shouldn't they?

[Emit]

11. In this specific case, no

the article in the OP noted:

A wing of al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a group belonging to Abbas's Fatah faction, said it fired some of the rockets, but not all were claimed.

[Behind the Aegis]

12. Why not? Aren't they the democratically elected government?

[Emit]

13. Why not hold the wing of al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades who claimed they fired some of the rockets

responsible for the rockets they fired?

[Behind the Aegis]

14. They are responsible. So is Hamas.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

16. how is Hamas responsible for something an rival faction does?

Its not like they are all-knowing and can be at an spot before somebody launches a rocket

In this case the focus should have been on Fatah since that is who the brigade is a wing off

[Behind the Aegis]

17. So a double standard?

[Idealism]

18. So by that standard

Israel should be held accountable for the Cave of the Patriarchs Massacre that killed 29 Palestinians, right?

[Behind the Aegis]

19. If they did nothing about it, then yes.

[Idealism]

20. A commission was set up

Those in the States know that a commission is what the government does when it wants to end discussion on a matter. Baruch Goldstein was beaten to death after opening fire on a crowd of praying Muslims at the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron. Nothing was changed, as a result of this massacre and Goldstein's death. The military wasn't cited for negligence (as they guard the holy site). There were riots across the land for days that injured two dozen Palestinians and a half dozen Israeli's. Following the massacre, Israel imposed a two-week curfew on the 120,000 Palestinian residents of the city, while the 400 Jewish settlers remained free to move around. The commissions report concluded there was no evidence of collaboration with the IDF soldiers who let Goldstein into the Cave with a weapon, because he was in his IDF reservist uniform, and they thought he was "just going to pray" (The Cave has separate rooms for Jews and Muslims to worship in).

To Rabin's credit, he supposedly phoned Arafat and expressed his condolences for those killed.

In a sick twist, Goldstein's wife tried to sue those who beat Baruch to death after he they disarmed him. It got nowhere.

Baruch was a member of the extremist far-right party called Kach, that advocated for the death of all Arabs. It was banned from participating in elections following a statement of support of Goldstein's actions at the Cave of the Patriarchs.


Edit:

In the past when Hamas and Israel were observing a tahdiya and another militant group launched rockets into Israel, Hamas had them arrested. They arrested a dozen or so members of the Al-Aqsa Brigades on a few different instances for their rocket fire into Israel. I say this because I want your opinion: is that not enough or is that satisfactory to you (considering Hamas can't obviously stop every extremist from launching a rocket)?

[Behind the Aegis]

21. So you recognize the difference? This is a good thing and progress.

[Idealism]

29. I believe both are sides are trying

If Baruch wasn't killed in the attack, he surely would have been jailed, for the attack. Hamas has done the same with those they have found responsible. Alas, Gaza has always been a lawless territory. For many years the biggest clans ruled Gaza with little to no interruption of their crimes from any police force. Fatah turned an especially blind eye to these gangs as murder and drug trafficking became commonplace. Hamas actually brought sweeping change, in the implementation of law, compared to Fatah.

http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=11688841

Do you believe that Hamas did not do enough in their arrests of a dozen or so people during the last tahdiya?

[Behind the Aegis]

30. I think there was progress.

It was refreshing to see Hamas actually "arrest" rocket launchers. However, it was probably more due to political rivalries than actually bombing Israel, but whatever. Did they do enough? No. It was a half-assed effort, but it did mark a change in the way things were being done.

"Hamas actually brought sweeping change, in the implementation of law, compared to Fatah." True. It went from one extreme to the other. I don't see that as a good thing.

[Idealism]

31. Political rivals would benefit from harming Israel

So you see Hamas's problem with the Martyr Brigades. The Brigades can launch rockets at Israel in order to put Hamas in a precarious situation, but if Hamas cracks down on them, there will always be some who see this as a political ploy. If Hamas lets them go free, Hamas still gets blamed for it. There seems to be no winning there if you believe what some say. Whatever the case may be, does it not do good to get militants that had launched rockets at Israel off the streets?

I strongly disagree with almost all of Sharia Law, but people are entitled to their own beliefs, no matter how unfair I think they are. I can shake my head and think there is a better way, but my opinions should not dictate how others should live.

[Behind the Aegis]

36. Did you even bother to read what I wrote?

As for Hamas, poor things, damned if they do, damned if they don't. Welcome to Israel!

"I strongly disagree with almost all of Sharia Law, but people are entitled to their own beliefs, no matter how unfair I think they are. I can shake my head and think there is a better way, but my opinions should not dictate how others should live." Convenient. Replace one form of corruption with another, it is still corruption.

[Chulanowa]

35. Well, how much do you think Hamas is capable of doing, police-wise?

Just like any police force, they can't be everywhere at once, nor can they pregognitively sense a crime is about to happen and rush there before it happens. They're also faced with several other setbacks that we, as Americans (or Israelis, or Brits, or whoever "we" are) don't really get. Americans at least, have no working concept of what the level of poverty in a place like Gaza can do to a police force, both in terms of the tools at its disposal, and morale and ability of its officers. There's also the very real problem of assassinations and large-scale (for police) armed conflicts with the "gangs" of the area, all of whom generally have ebtter weapons than the Gaza police.

Plus... Well... if Gazan police start patrolling the areas where rockets and attacks on Israeli border guards come from... What do you think the reaction from those border guards will be? "I see four guys wearing Hamas colors, and they're armed" - I can't imagine that the police's job will be made easier in this situation, whatever the reaction may be.

Now you can call it half-assed if you like. What it looks like to me is that you expect the police in Gaza to do police work better than your local well-staffed, well-trained, well-funded police force in a place that's NOT constantly being bombed or shot up by your neighbors and the local gangs. Myself, I look at it as half-full. The fact that the Gazan police can pull off even something "half-assed" to your standards speaks volumes about their actual capability and dedication to doing so.

Now here's a crazy thought, but has Israel ever tried joint policework? I don't know if they have or not, but if it could work, it would result in a much more stable Gaza and a much safer Israel. I'm not going to hold out hope that Hamas would accept such an idea, but, eh, pipes can dream, yeah?

[pelsar]

38. joint patrols were tried...

the Palestinian shot his israeli counterpart.......

Sept 29, 2000 - Border Police Supt. Yosef Tabeja, 27, of Ramle was shot to death by his Palestinian counterpart on a joint patrol near Kalkilya.
______

no one is expecting hamas/police force to be perfect....but the excuse that they cant try really hard or that they are not responsible for the happenings in gaza is exactly wrong. They have taken on the reins of govt and as such are responsible for all of the acts within their domain...and its irrelevant what the political repercussions are, the responsibilities is theirs and its their job to figure out how to solve their problems, that is the concept of being the govt. (and that means a corrupt police force is also their problem to solve)

excuses dont solve problems, they just preserve the problems. and of course if they cant govern then they have little business signing a peace treaty, cease fire etc if they cant enforce it....

and the problem with a govt that has shari law (or any other theocratic govt) is that when the "people" no longer want it, they are stuck with it...and of course the minority that dont want it have to hide it...

and this you agree to?......do you actually believe a theocratic govt is equal to that of one that is democratic with freedom of religion?...

[eyl]

37. Didn't they release them a couple of days later? n/t

[Idealism]

40. Hard to hold a trial when Israel won't let you have courts

[eyl]

41. Hamas doesn't seem to have a problem

trying "collaborators", does it?

(or for that matter, keeping people imprisoned without trial).

[Bodhi BloodWave]

15. because it dosn't further the hatred they have of Hamas n/t

[Chulanowa]

23. So Barack Obama and his cabinet are to blame for the actions of the Crips?

And while we're at it, let's do a few bombing runs on El Salvador because of the crap MS13 pulls in America.

[Behind the Aegis]

24. Analogies aren't your strong point, are they?

[Chulanowa]

25. Nor is logic yours

If we're to hold Hamas, as the elected government of Gaza, responsible for the actions of Gaza's criminal element, then we have to do the same for each other government, yes? If you wish to keep the comparisons local, then Israel needs to be held responsible and culpable for the actions of the Settlers in the West Bank.

Aegis, you, like so many others, seem to expect magical wonders to fly out of the Palestinian territories, to judge by how awesomely high your standards must be. This time, the wonder you're apparently expecting is precognitive police work. Let's break honest here, Aegis. If "Minority Report"-style police resources are ever developed, it's not going to be in the Gaza strip, right? Right.

Holding Hamas responsible for the actions of its political rivals is ludicrous, Aegis, and there is no logical argument you can present to change that.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. You are going to address logic? ....

....:rofl:

Then again, what is to be expected of posters like you, chulanowa? Rationality? Surely not!

"If we're to hold Hamas, as the elected government of Gaza, responsible for the actions of Gaza's criminal element, then we have to do the same for each other government, yes?" There's that false analogy again.

"If you wish to keep the comparisons local, then Israel needs to be held responsible and culpable for the actions of the Settlers in the West Bank." OH SHIT! We agree?! Say it ain't so!

"Aegis, you, like so many others, seem to expect magical wonders to fly out of the Palestinian territories, to judge by how awesomely high your standards must be." No, 'Nowa, that is your kind.

"Holding Hamas responsible for the actions of its political rivals is ludicrous, Aegis, and there is no logical argument you can present to change that." Of course not, 'nowa, it is the double standard of which I spoke. Hamas gets a "free pass" by your kind. Therefore, according to your "logic", there is none that should hold Israel responsible for any group in Israel that is opposed to the Israeli (Zionist, if you are an Iranian president or anti-Israel poster) government who decides to kill or attack "Palestine" or Palestinians.

On edit: Italics issue.

[Chulanowa]

32. Thank you for the personal attacks

Now perhaps you would like to address my statements themselves?

[pelsar]

27. are you claiming that israel is NOT responsible for the settlers?

If we're to hold Hamas, as the elected government of Gaza, responsible for the actions of Gaza's criminal element, then we have to do the same for each other government, yes? If you wish to keep the comparisons local, then Israel needs to be held responsible and culpable for the actions of the Settlers in the West Bank.

i believe all govts are responsible for the actions of its citizens-so that means hamas is responsible for all the actions coming out of gaza and israel is responsible for all the actions of its citizens......i believe its called using a single standard.

(not generally liked amongst the progressive elements)
_________
the old arafat trick of deniability.....well have a "truce" its those others guys (al aska brigades, hamas, IJ, etc) that are doing the shooting..and if israel does shoot back, no matter at who, then they are breaking the agreement. Its old and worn out and only the suckers still actually go for that.

[Behind the Aegis]

28. Shhhhhhhhhhh. Sheked, be'vakasha!

Truth has no place in discussions like this if it, in any...ANY...way makes Israel look "less guilty."

[Chulanowa]

34. Actually, Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade is guilty; Israel is just misguided

AAMB launched rockets, and Israel went after Hamas. An argument could be made that Israel did so intentionally - And it wouldn't surprise me if it was so - but it could just be another knee-jerk response from Israel.

It's possible to be wrong without necessarily being "guilty" of something, Aegis.

[pelsar]

39. i wouldnt even pretend to know the internal politics....

of Al aska brigde/Hamas/ IJ etc.......sometimes they work together sometimes the shoot at each other, sometimes they smuggle in supplies together, share knowledge and other times not....

gaza has but a single govt that has declared itself responsible for gaza, Hamas. If they cannot control their inhabitants then i guess they have no business declaring a "ceasefire, lull etc" since they cannot uphold it.

any shooting from gaza has an address: the govt of gaza...just like any where else in the world.

[Chulanowa]

33. I'm saying that Israel is not held responsible for the violence of the settlers

And if you want to use a single standard, then Tel Aviv needs to be bombed every time the Israeli settlers do something violent. After all, you and Aegis are both supporting the concept of killing Hamas for the actions of Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, aren't you? If it's cool to do that, then I'm sure killing people in Tel Aviv for the actions of people in Modi'in Illit is also cool by you, what with that "single standard"

And... progressive elements, huh?

[bemildred]

4. You know, the Palestinians really need to start calling Israelis to warn them too.

We could have an improved situation if both sides could arrange to only blow up buildings and stuff.

[Chulanowa]

6. The Palestinians would have to learn how to aim first

I have a sneaking suspicion that that particular development would do a lot towards making Israel a little more reluctant to march in...

[bemildred]

7. Well, it's true it would require a lot of phone calls the way things are now. nt

[Chulanowa]

22. And Israel would just bomb the phone bank anyway, so what the hell... n/t

[azurnoir]

8. Nah we'd be hearing about a new Palestinian terror tactic

we're going to launch a rocket and its going to hit somewhere around......... but it would give IAF a leg up on when to start bombing