IDF rabbi told troops fighting in Gaza: We must not cede a single inch of Israel

[DogPoundPup]

During the fighting in the Gaza Strip, the religious media - and on two occasions, the Israel Defense Forces weekly journal Bamahane - were full of praise for the army rabbinate. The substantial role of religious officers and soldiers in the front-line units of the IDF was, for the first time, supported also by the significant presence of rabbis there.

The chief army rabbi, Brigadier General Avichai Rontzki, joined the troops in the field on a number of occasions, as did rabbis under his command.

Officers and soldiers reported that they felt "spiritually elevated" and "morally empowered" by conversations with rabbis who gave them encouragement before the confrontation with the Palestinians.

read more ... http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1058758.html

[Duckhunter935]

1. Idiots on both sides nt

[LeftishBrit]

4. True

Whenever religious fundies get mixed up in politics, it never results in any good.

[Scurrilous]

2. Rabbi Yosef describes Rachel's 'manifestation' in Gaza

Following widespread rumors biblical matriarch appeared before soldiers fighting in Strip, Shas' spiritual leader tells of how young, beautiful woman warned troops of terrorists

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3661283,00.html

<snip>

"After Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu already confirmed reports that Mother Rachel assisted IDF troops fighting in Gaza, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef also declared this week that the biblical matriarch was sent to help the soldiers.

In his Shabbat sermon Shas' spiritual leader described Rachel's role in the recent war. "The soldiers arrived at a house and wanted to go inside. There were three armed terrorists waiting for them there.

"And then a beautiful young woman appeared before them and warned: Don't enter the house, there are terrorists there, be careful.

- "Who are you?"

- "What do you care who I am," she said, and whispered – "Rachel."

The rabbi continued to describe how the soldiers indeed found the terrorists inside and killed them. The three were carrying guns, just like the woman said.

"Mother Rachel was called to the place, 'Go save your sons.' Ah, praised be His name! God redeems and rescues, and sends angels to save the people of Israel. How we should thank God," Rabbi Yosef concluded."

[Scurrilous]

3. Gaza war rabbinical edict draws protest in Israel

<snip>

"Israel's chief military chaplain distributed a booklet to soldiers fighting in the Gaza conflict containing a rabbinical edict against showing mercy to enemies, an Israeli human rights group said on Monday.

The group, Yesh Din, which says it is dedicated to defending human rights in territory occupied by Israel, called on Defense Minister Ehud Barak to dismiss the chief chaplain, Rabbi Avichai Rontzki, who holds the rank of brigadier general.

A booklet handed out by Rontzki during the offensive in the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip quotes an ultra-nationalist Israeli rabbi saying that showing mercy toward a "cruel enemy" was "terribly immoral" and advising soldiers they were fighting "murderers."

Yesh Din said the rabbi's message could have been interpreted by soldiers as a call to act outside the confines of the international laws of warfare."

more


From haaretz:

"Following are quotations from this material:

"(There is) a biblical ban on surrendering a single millimeter of it to gentiles, though all sorts of impure distortions and foolishness of autonomy, enclaves and other national weaknesses. We will not abandon it to the hands of another nation, not a finger, not a nail of it." This is an excerpt from a publication entitled "Daily Torah studies for the soldier and the commander in Operation Cast Lead," issued by the IDF rabbinate. The text is from "Books of Rabbi Shlomo Aviner," who heads the Ateret Cohanim yeshiva in the Muslim quarter of the Old City in Jerusalem.

The following questions are posed in one publication: "Is it possible to compare today's Palestinians to the Philistines of the past? And if so, is it possible to apply lessons today from the military tactics of Samson and David?" Rabbi Aviner is again quoted as saying: "A comparison is possible because the Philistines of the past were not natives and had invaded from a foreign land ... They invaded the Land of Israel, a land that did not belong to them and claimed political ownership over our country ... Today the problem is the same. The Palestinians claim they deserve a state here, when in reality there was never a Palestinian or Arab state within the borders of our country. Moreover, most of them are new and came here close to the time of the War of Independence."

The IDF rabbinate, also quoting Rabbi Aviner, describes the appropriate code of conduct in the field: "When you show mercy to a cruel enemy, you are being cruel to pure and honest soldiers. This is terribly immoral. These are not games at the amusement park where sportsmanship teaches one to make concessions. This is a war on murderers. 'A la guerre comme a la guerre.'"

This view is also echoed in publications signed by Rabbis Chen Halamish and Yuval Freund on Jewish consciousness. Freund argues that "our enemies took advantage of the broad and merciful Israeli heart" and warns that "we will show no mercy on the cruel."

In addition to the official publications, extreme right-wing groups managed to bring pamphlets with racist messages into IDF bases. One such flyer is attributed to "the pupils of Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg" - the former rabbi at Joseph's Tomb and author of the article "Baruch the Man," which praises Baruch Goldstein, who massacred unarmed Palestinians in Hebron. It calls on "soldiers of Israel to spare your lives and the lives of your friends and not to show concern for a population that surrounds us and harms us. We call on you ... to function according to the law 'kill the one who comes to kill you.' As for the population, it is not innocent ... We call on you to ignore any strange doctrines and orders that confuse the logical way of fighting the enemy."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1058758.html

[Vegasaurus]

5. This is not a mainstream view

any more than people claim that Hamas speaks for the "majority" of the Palestinians.

There are crazies on both sides.

[azurnoir]

6. So the soldiers

felt morally empowered by this

We call on you ... to function according to the law 'kill the one who comes to kill you.' As for the population, it is not innocent ... We call on you to ignore any strange doctrines and orders that confuse the logical way of fighting the enemy."

for those here that are claiming this is not the main stream view in Israel true enough for civilians but it "got thr job done" for IDF when used on the battle field and this Rabbi's militancy had to have known the whole concept is frightening go ahead kill civilians G-d says it's OK. Now find my self wondering if the US armed forces had fundie nut preachers in Iraq that we just have not heard much about

[pelsar]

7. oh please.....

do you have any idea how many soldiers actually heard them rabbis speak and how many actually listened?......come on give me number or is this one more bit of your speculating about their influence.....not really having any idea.

its most likely that those in golani brigade used the booklet to replace any toilet paper they might have used up.

[azurnoir]

8. Let me ask a few questions

Are there a a "growing number of orthodox in the IDF, I already know that they can get service deferred but how many actually do?

Is it possible that in a battlefield situation some who normally might not be persuaded would be as in "there are no atheists in a foxhole"?

And I never said it was a large number I said that these guys were preaching this crap was frightening and in fact my speculation was if the same had gone on with US forces in Iraq I think it has and let me add in Iraq it would be Christian fundie nut preachers the US doesn't many Rabbi's in the vein described above

Any speculation about the influence on IDF was in the Ha'aretz article not my post

[pelsar]

9. some answers.....

according to the stats there is more modern orthodox in combat/elite units than in years past, its now part of their upbringing......these guys dont go for the deferred service, that is the "haridi" the ultra orthodox. many of the girls, in the settlements, btw usually opt out for national service, get married (which cancels the service) and at the same time are far more extreme than their male counterparts (i have a pet theory that this is their only time to "rebel" because soon after they'll be married and be pregnant for the next 10 years....).

the whole atheists in foxhole thing is pretty personal, but the chance and luck on a battlefield does give rise to those thoughts for anyone and everyone....

and the rabbi thing?...they've been pulling those stunts for as long as i can remember......the difference is that the soldiers have a greater loyalty to their unit, to their commander than to some rabbi....this we saw during the pullout of gaza, very few actually listened to the rabbis who said "dont do it."

the reason these rabbis dont scare me, is because despite their attempts israel remains a secular society....and i believe (and pray) that it will remain such

[Scurrilous]

10. A rabbinate gone wild

<snip>

"The booklets distributed by the Israel Defense Forces rabbinate during the combat in Gaza, which Amos Harel wrote about in Haaretz yesterday ("IDF rabbi told troops fighting in Gaza: We must not cede a single inch of Israel), and the "Jewish Awareness" publications distributed by IDF Chief Rabbi Avichai Rontzki, prove once again that the rabbi is giving his position a new and alarming interpretation.

From the start it was a mistake to appoint Rontzki, an extremist hozer b'tshuva (newly religious person), who often made harsh comments about secular people, particularly those in the IDF. Like every newly religious person, who has to prove that he is more devout than the Pope, he constantly flatters his mentors, the most extremist rabbis in the settlement community.

The result is an uncontrollable escalation. Rontzki has preached cliched nonsense, permeated with disgust and disdain for anyone who is not religious and does not believe in Greater Israel for the most racist Hardal (ultra-Orthodox religious Zionist) reasons. He has interfered in education officers' work and ordered them to disseminate extremist views. Now he has breached what remained of his position's boundaries and has really begun to go wild.

Rontzki distributes sermons written by Rabbi Shlomo Aviner that preach, in the name of ostensibly religious values, the killing of civilians. He distributes sermons written by his students, who propose a belligerent interpretation of Operation Cast Lead that opposes all the combat values formulated in the IDF throughout the generations.

In such an atmosphere, it is no wonder that extreme right-wing organizations are also smuggling into IDF bases sermons by Yitzhak Ginsburg, the rabbi of the yeshiva at Joseph's Tomb. Ginsburg wrote the book "Baruch Hagever," which praises the massacre by Baruch Goldstein against Arabs in the Cave of the Patriarchs in 1994, and he is considered the spiritual mentor of the most violent and extremist settlers. Thus, under the aegis of the army's chief rabbi, IDF soldiers are being exposed to chauvinist and racist incitement, which is illegal."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1059124.html

[Scurrilous]

11. Army rabbi 'gave out hate leaflet to troops'

<snip>

"The Israeli army's chief rabbinate gave soldiers preparing to enter the Gaza Strip a booklet implying that all Palestinians are their mortal enemies and advising them that cruelty is sometimes a "good attribute".

The booklet, entitled Go Fight My Fight: A Daily Study Table for the Soldier and Commander in a Time of War, was published especially for Operation Cast Lead, the devastating three-week campaign launched with the stated aim of ending rocket fire against southern Israel. The publication draws on the teachings of Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, head of the Jewish fundamentalist Ateret Cohanim seminary in Jerusalem.

In one section, Rabbi Aviner compares Palestinians to the Philistines, a people depicted in the Bible as a war-like menace and existential threat to Israel.

In another, the army rabbinate appears to be encouraging soldiers to disregard the international laws of war aimed at protecting civilians, according to Breaking the Silence, the group of Israeli ex-soldiers who disclosed its existence. The booklet cites the renowned medieval Jewish sage Maimonides as saying that "one must not be enticed by the folly of the Gentiles who have mercy for the cruel".

Breaking the Silence is calling for the firing of the chief military rabbi, Brigadier-General Avi Ronzki, over the booklet. The army had no comment on the matter yesterday.

Rabbi Arik Ascherman, the executive director of the Rabbis for Human Rights group, called the booklet "very worrisome", adding " a minority position in Judaism that doesn't understand the ... necessity of distinguishing between combatants and civilians."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/army-rabbi-gave-out-hate-leaflet-to-troops-1516805.html

[iralaser]

12. IDF chaplaincy

I have a feeling that this is a desperate attempt to draw attention away from the unprovoked attacks by Hamas and the other Muslim terror groups against Israel for eight years.

Israel did not respond, and then the Hamas just got bolder and bolder, until Israel had no choice but to invade Gaza to bring the Islamic terrorism to an end. Israel is responding to terror as any sovereign nation would, and was doing a very good job, by the way -- until the Americans told Israel to stop in midstream.

Just as Spain and Ireland have the right to exist, as the national home of the Spanish and Irish people, so does Israel have the right to exist as the national home of the Jewish people.

[DogPoundPup]

13. The Likud charter from 1999

as available on www.knesset.gov.il says:

The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.

-------------------------------------------------

This against international law, the roadmap and other peace plans.

So while using Hamas charter in an argument as being an obstacle to peace is clearly bogus, it is obviously justified to point to Likud's charter as the real issue.