Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Gideon Levy / Gaza war ended in utter failure for Israel

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU
 
DogPoundPup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 08:48 PM
Original message
Gideon Levy / Gaza war ended in utter failure for Israel
Edited on Wed Jan-21-09 09:45 PM by Lithos
excerpt~

What seemed like a predestined loss to only a handful of people at the onset of the war will gradually emerge as such to many others, once the victorious trumpeting subsides.
Advertisement
The initial objective of the war was to put an end to the firing of Qassam rockets. This did not cease until the war's last day. It was only achieved after a cease-fire had already been arranged. Defense officials estimate that Hamas still has 1,000 rockets.

The war's second objective, the prevention of smuggling, was not met either. The head of the Shin Bet security service has estimated that smuggling will be renewed within two months.

Most of the smuggling that is going on is meant to provide food for a population under siege, and not to obtain weapons. But even if we accept the scare campaign concerning the smuggling with its exaggerations, this war has served to prove that only poor quality, rudimentary weapons passed through the smuggling tunnels connecting the Gaza Strip to Egypt.

Edited to 4 paragraphs to conform to DU's fair use policy for copyrighted material

Lithos
DU Moderator


entire article ... http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057670.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
panader0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why does this remind me so much of bush and Iraq?
Edited on Wed Jan-21-09 08:56 PM by panader0
When will governments realize that you can beat an army with your better army, but not subdue a people? It couldn't be done in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan or Gaza. And there are many more examples. A non-military solution is the only way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I guess Germany and Japan
were just an aberration.

We don't know how this will play out, Israel withdrew its forces coinciding with our President's inauguration, that allowed him the political cover he needed to maintain the relative silence he had during the "we only have one President" days. I still think it's possible that Fatah will be the instrument that restores material goods to Gaza, and that the Palestinian people there will eventually accept Mahmoud Abbas as their leader.

That opens the door for a two-state peace treaty. That's something we all should desire.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Well, yeah, actually, they were.
Most unusual.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Perhaps
that is because they were the only two nations utterly defeated in war.

Gives you something to think about, doesn't it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Actually, that's not true either.
Iraq, for example, was just recently utterly defeated in war. So was Afghanistan. So was the South in the Civil War. There are lots of cases. What is different in some cases is when the invading and occupying power a.) successfully rebuilds the conquered state and b.) then gives it back political autonomy. Notice that in the Civil War, the South was rebuilt, but it never got back political autonomy. Germany and Japan have political autonomy, but they still host the conqueror's troops.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I'll give you the South
but Iraq did not nearly go through the devestation that was wrought on Japan, Germany, and the South. And the I think it's incorrect to call Afghanistan utterly defeated. If we withdrew troops from there, they'd quickly go back to the tribalism that existed before the Western powers were interested in the region. That would include keeping women and girls from being educated. The same might happen in Iraq, we'll see.

In any case, the Israelis pulled out of Gaza just in time to avoid a lecture from President Obama on it, one that he probably didn't want to give anyway. That's good, because he can come to the negotiating table as a fresh face, not saddled by the baggage of the past.

I'm looking forward to a two-state solution in that region, I just don't see how Hamas goes along with it. Fatah is better suited to carrying out a lasting peace. The US and the EU will gladly pay Fatah to keep the peace, and maybe in a couple of decades they can have a tourist industry to sustain them, like Vietnam has developed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. You are changing the subject.
The issue was utter defeat, the destruction or the previous government and the occupation of the territory. That is an event. It happens or it doesn't. Just because you utterly defeat someone, that doesn't mean that the subject population will accept the legitimacy of your rule, that there will be no difficulties to follow. That is a different subject entirely.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Idealism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Palestinians rejected Fatah before, and nothing has changed
If anything, relations between Abbas and Palestinians has gotten worse. His Fatah-dominated Security forces have been arresting peaceful protesters in the West Bank, and generally going along with whatever the West tells him to do (yet again). Fatah was voted out last election because they were corrupt and inept, and I don't see any strides made since 2006, and I doubt Palestinians (especially Gazans) have either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Nominally, you're right
but what if the West nor the wealthy Arab states will deal with anyone other than Fatah? What if the only way to get your home rebuilt, food on your table, and medical care is through Fatah?

The West Bank has prospered somewhat since the Hamas-Fatah split. You're quite right that the West has been calling the shots, but that's what President Carter's Camp David accords were all about, paying the Israelis and the Egyptians not to fight each other any more.

It's bribery, but perhaps it beats war.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Idealism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. The EU and probably UN will call for just those restrictions, me thinks
The Arab league, I don't think, would go that far. They are still more loyal to Hamas than to Israel or the rest of the world, remember. That being said, citizens of Gaza will not stand for the same government they threw out a couple years past. The Palestinians need a new leader, with a new party. Someone with charisma, intellect, and long-term goals for his people. A Simon Bolivar-like figure will alone save the Palestinians from their doomed future of oppression and second-class status. Let us hope the world recognizes when one such as this comes along, and instead of trying to splinter Palestinians apart (again), they unite behind him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. While the "man in the street" in nearby Arabic countries
is for Hamas, it's my impression the governments that make up the Arab league are deathly afraid of the influence of Iran, through Hamas. That's pretty much why they sat on their hands during the three week war, the way I viewed it.

As for what the citizens of Gaza will stand for, perhaps Israel made war in order to get them to reprioritize. Better Fatah in peace than Hamas in fear, so to speak.

As for a Simon Bolivar figure, you may be engaged in very wishful thinking, the only major figure the Palestinians have had for sixty years is Yasser Arafat. I think Mahmoud Abbas might just be their next statesman-leader. At least I think he would try to make a lasting peace in the area, and if he can come bringing wealth from the West in his hands, it might be enough to persuade a majority of Palestinians to toss away the idea of destroying Israel.

It's just as well that they did, because it's never going to happen in a way that leaves the Gaza Palestinians alive. If Iran nukes Israel, Gaza is toast, too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GoesTo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. It would be hard to appease the man in the street
If a visionary emerged who favored a path toward peace and coexistence, it's doubtful they'd rise to a position of leadership.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PerfectSage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. Germany and Japan are now 2nd Generation warfare historical curiousites. Nam was not an aberation
Every since the 1982 Invasion of Lebanon the IDF hasn't achieved dick either militarily or politically.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. no shit
who could have predicted? :puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. they succeeded.. all they wanted was to put Gaza back in the dark ages an kill as many Palestinians
as possable, before the $$$$ billions off shore gas deal was signed :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry...

http://mosheyaalon.com/article.php?id=20
British Gas is supposed to be the crown jewel of the Palestinian economy, and provide part of the solution to Israel's pressing energy needs. The British energy giant, now called the "BG Group," and its local partners - the Palestinian Authority under Mahmoud Abbas and the private, Palestinian-owned Consolidated Contractors Company (CCC) - are currently involved in advanced negotiations to sell to Israel massive amounts of natural gas - reserves of nearly 1.4 trillion cubic feet - that BG first discovered in 2000 off the Gaza coast. The market value of the gas has been estimated at $4 billion. Therefore, sale of the gas to Israel would mean a billion-dollar windfall for the PA and, potentially, for the Palestinian people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
INDIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. Kill as many as "possable." Really? That was their aim? Really?
Really? Are you sure?























REALLY?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Arrowhead2k1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. As long as the Palestinians are down, Zionism can move forward.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Mon Sep 22nd 2014, 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC