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IDF unveils Hamas map seized in Gaza

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Mosby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 01:41 PM
Original message
IDF unveils Hamas map seized in Gaza
Soldiers from the Paratrooper's Brigade operating in the northern Gaza Strip uncovered a map prepared by Hamas that shows how the terror group prepared for the IDF's incursion by deploying different types of bombs as well as snipers throughout the town of al-Atatra.

snip

Halamish said that the map showed how Hamas does not hesitate to use civilian infrastructure for its terrorist activity. On the map, a brown dot is marked next to a mosque representing a nearby sniper position.

"This is a civilian area and you can see on the map how Hamas booby-trapped the entrance to homes in order to hit the IDF," Halamish said. In another case, a large explosive device was marked on the map next to a gas station. Had it been detonated it would have likely destroyed the gas station as well, killing and wounding civilians who live in the area.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=123142489302...
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't believe the neo-cons of Israel anymore than I do the neo-cons of the U.S.
Edited on Thu Jan-08-09 01:46 PM by higher class
Sorry, can't believe them at all until some better people take over their government.

They used missiles as an excuse - the parallel of our using wmd's as an excuse.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. how convenient.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Reminds me of how a 9-11 hijacker's passport managed to blow clear of the tower's destruction
and land unharmed in the street.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
40. Because, of course,
there were no Arab "hijackers".

Bush and the Mossad conspired to bring down the towers so that the neocons could start a war to benefit rich Jews, who could continue in their quest to rule the world.

Right?
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Spin it any way you like, this official story is pretty unbelievable.
If I told you the earth only weighs 100 pounds and you couldn't find the actual figure, would you have to believe what I said?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. And the IDF would be making this map public, why?
To let Hamas know they found it? To share sensitive military information?

Anybody got a reason that makes sense? :shrug:
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Probably, Ma'am
In the hope of making a convincing case that their opponents do in fact plan to fight in proximity to non-combatants and normally 'exempt' locations such as mosques, schools, etc.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. making the case must be quite important to them then,
if they're willing to give up what I'd think would be an important advantage in the conflict.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. By This Point, Ma'am, It Is Probably A Dead Letter
Irregular forces have trouble sticking to plan anyway, at least in detail, and it is unlikely this document bears much relation to where Hamas people actually are at present.

And certainly, it is an important point for the Israelis to make politically, sufficiently so to outweigh a good deal of purely military consideration. Both sides in this are playing to the gallery, and seeking to use the laws of war as a club against the other. The thrust of this document is to demonstrate a style of deployment that is a breach of the laws of war, and in some instances may even meet the legal standard for perfidy in war. At a time when the Israeli forces are coming under a hammering for killing civilians under questionable circumstances, the opportunity to put some onus back on the foe will certainly be taken.
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sixmile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Or to evade responsibility after destroying schools, mosques, etc.
Documents prove nothing, sir (or ma'am, sorry!) forgeries are easy enough, and truth tends to be the first casualty of war.

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Partisan War Being What It Is, Sir
There is little room for doubt Hamas has taken up positions that in many instances make Israeli fire on such targets legitimate under the laws of war.

It is a serious mistake to imagine this is a conflict between angels and demons, whichever side one chooses to cast in either role.
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sixmile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. I believe in neither angels nor demons sir
They are the product of mankind's imagination.
I believe that serious doubt exists regarding Hamas positions and that police action and special ops are more efficient in dealing with civilian militias.

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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I believe the evidence of "demons" is fairly self evident from this current tragedy.
They may or may not be the kind that originate from an other-wordly Hell, but they certainly are the kind that create Hell on Earth. :evilfrown:
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Would That Life Were So Simple, Sir....
"When you stare into the void, the void stares into you."
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Well, sir, the wise man in my avatar once said......
"We're all Christ, and we're all Hitler, but we want Christ to win".

And while neither the Jews or the Muslim Palestinians actually believe in the literal Christ, the concept still applies. The "angels" and "demons" exist within us all, but in that part of the world especially, the "angels" seem to spend most of the time as benchwarmers.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. If You Consider Mr. Lennon Wise, Sir, We Had Best Part While It Can Still Be Done Amicably....
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. As A Matter Of Practical experience through This Conflict And Others, Sir
Commando style raids against leadership targets will often also involve substantial civilian casualties, and draw denunciation as atrocious illegality.

War, particularly on the 'hundred years' pattern, is a bad business.
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sixmile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I wonder, Sir, what would the casualties be
If the Israeli armed forces, possibly in league with Fatah, launched these types of raids instead of the current ones?
I doubt the international outcry would be as fierce.

Had the neocons meddling not lead to the 2007 collapse of the unity government perhaps this could have all been avoided?

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. A Number Of Things Could Have Avoided This, Sir
And no operation intended to break the power of an irregular armed force comprising something on the order of a twentieth of the adult male population of an urban district will not be attended by wide-spread casualties. It is worth noting that the incidence of civilian casualties, and their proportion, has increased as ground forces have moved in. In some ways, this is practically inevitable. Air strikes concentrate a great deal of destructive power under the control of comparatively few people; ground operations disperse lethal force among a great many people. Even if the rate of error or malice is low, where more people are involved in making decisions about the employment of lethal force, the number of calamitous incidents will be higher.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. I understand the logic there...
but wonder if it defeats the purpose. No kind of map excuses the killing of hundreds of children. A UN member state blowing up UN marked schools and aid convoys is beyond rationalizing, imho.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. People Play The Hand They Have As Best They Can See To Do It, Ma'am
Sometimes it is a full house, and sometimes it is a pair of deuces....
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. True enough, Magistrate. True enough. nt
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GoesTo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
35. Thank you for bringing logic to replace rhetoric.
Well phrased, without showing favor to any of the belligerents. That helps us stick to reality - which is complicated enough.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Sure. They need to distract from the horrible causalities
Edited on Thu Jan-08-09 01:49 PM by sfexpat2000
and blame Hamas for them if possible. It's not about the map but about the opportunity because this whole piece can be translated: fighting in urban areas. :shrug:
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. funny thing is...
it seems like nothing on the 'map' actually exists.

"the map shows (blah) - IF they had done (blah) - bad things would have happened"

IF.
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Mosby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. it's proof that Hamas wants Palestinians to die.
The more the better.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Really? So all the things on this 'map' were actually in place?
The article makes no mention of that.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Gee they just happen to "unveil" this great discovery
on the same day that they blow away a UN aid truck and aid workers find children clinging to bodies 80 meters away from an Israeli post not to mention the ICRC's statement wow what luck huh? hasbara

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Mosby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Sorry but the map contradicts the Hamas "narrative"
The truth hurts sometimes.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. What Hamas narrative ?
Edited on Thu Jan-08-09 02:35 PM by azurnoir
Like the one where they said they were not firing from the UN school? That narrative? Not that Hamas is always truthful either but the timing here is just a bit convenient and doesn't Israel have a "ministry of propaganda" or something of that sort
the truth is hurting Israel a bit more than Hamas but it was an admirable attempt at distraction
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
29. project much?
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sixmile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Hasbara
Google it. It's alive and well (even on DU)
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I'm aware of what is going on. We've seen it all before.
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sixmile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Just trying to help
It's like trying to push water uphill sometimes, though. :)


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Mosby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. I'm not "projecting"
I deplore all civilian casualties. Hamas however wants to maximize civilian casualties in order to "win" the propaganda war.

PS--I've been posting here for a long time, see my profile.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. guided munitions
Hamas doesn't have any. Israel does.
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ShadesOfGrey Donating Member (646 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
38. LOL... I think you've got 'em pegged. nt
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
47. To do their usual "WE KILLED CIVILIANS BECAUSE THEY WERE IN THE WAY
NOT BECAUSE WE ENJOY DOING IT" defense.
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HeraldSquare212 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
17. Here's a solution, IDF: withdraw from Gaza.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
43. A solution to what?
Israel's problem is the Qassam attacks. Hamas refused to renew the hudna and Israel has no real way to defend themselves from the missiles.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
27. I quit trusting Israel.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
30. "The Magic Muslim Map!"
Brought to you by . . . The Jerusalem Post. :eyes:
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. It's almost comical.
I'd be laughing if there weren't so many dead bodies.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
45. No kidding
It is ridiculous, but seriously disgusting.
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
42. How convenient
Really, do they expect anybody to believe this?

Bunch of goddamned murdering liars.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
46. Why is defending a town against an armed invasion "terrorist activity"?
Atara is in Gaza, not Israel.
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