Hamas moves on Fatah 'collaborators'

[ProgressiveProfessor]

Hamas moves on Fatah 'collaborators'
Jerusalem Post ^ | 4 January 2009 | Khaled Abu Toameh
Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2009 3:55:13 PM by ScaniaBoy

The Hamas government has placed dozens of Fatah members under house arrest out of fear that they might exploit the current IDF operation to regain control of the Gaza Strip.

The move came amid reports that the Fatah leadership in the West Bank has instructed its followers to be ready to assume power over the Gaza Strip when and if Israel's military operation results in the removal of Hamas rule.

Fatah officials in Ramallah told The Jerusalem Post that Hamas militiamen had been assaulting many Fatah activists since the beginning of the operation last Saturday. They said at least 75 activists were shot in the legs while others had their hands broken.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733155685&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
=================
Read the full article.

Hamas is showing its true colors

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

1. Bedlam.

[Alamuti Lotus]

2. Collaborators are often targeted during wartime

This is not surprising. Fat'h leadership has clearly sided with Israel in this conflict, both in word and deed; other Palestinians will act accordingly. It is not hyperbole to speculate that while Hamas may certainly survive this assault as a political power (perhaps even strengthen with the free PR it is receiving daily).. Mubarak, Dahlan, Barak, Livni, and Abbas ultimately may not.

Not the original title of the article, you will need to address this per guidelines.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. Colaborators with whom?

Egypt and many Arab groups are siding with Fatah and the PA against Hamas.

Hamas may survive, I certainly hope not. Their behavior is more fascist than Islamic, and their coup should be reversed and Gaza return to the control of the PA.

Did not know the there were title issues...seen lots of other post not aligned. Fixed.

[azurnoir]

7. Sir have you not stated on more than one occasion

that Israel intends on installing Abbas as leader of the Palestinian people? That in it self will be seen as collaboration and not by just Hamas or its sympathizers as they are called but IMO by the Palestinian people by and large. As far as Gaza being "returned" to Fatah or the PNA as it were you are speaking of the time prior to the January 2006 elections, as that was the last time Gaza was under control of Fatah.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

24. What I have stated is the Abbas is the leader of the PA and is recognized as such

the Arab nations and others. Hamas has a majority of the seats in the assembly. After the election Hamas executed a coup in Gaza and threw out the PA, executing and imprisoning their supporters and others. Hamas has refused to participate in elections since.

What I have stated is:
- The PA has stated that it is in a position to resume control of Gaza.
- A goal of the Israeli attacks are to remove Hamas.
- Israel will not dialog with Hamas, but will with the PA
- Egypt will not reopen the Rafah checkpoint if Hamas is still in charge in Gaza
- The Hamas has to go if there is going to be any chance of peace
- Hamas has little to no support from other nations at this point.

I don't see the PA riding on Israeli tanks, though I could see Israel withdrawing and turning over Gaza to the PA.

[azurnoir]

32. A quote

IHardcoreProgressive Sun Dec-28-08 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
50. I really don't think so...every member of Hamas I might agree with.

PA has already said they are waiting in the wings to take over Gaza when Hamas capitulates, but its not clear if that is going to happen. Hamas did a number on members of the PA some time back, so its not clear how much of the PA is left in Gaza.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=228696#234067

BTW the PA or PNA is an umbrella organization that contains a number of parties both Fatah and Hamas are members

[sixmile]

3. As objective as the Moonie Times

I call 'hasbara'

[ProgressiveProfessor]

5. Hamas has been going after Fatah members ever since the coup in Gaza

However, there have been other stories about Fatah fighters being released to help defend Gaza. I would bet both are happening. Hamas has lost command and control and there is little to no top level coordination. The result is this kind of deadly confusion.

[bemildred]

4. Gee, who could have predicted this? nt

[bridgit]

8. Hamas is the problem

[High Plains]

38. The unending oppression of the Palestinians is the problem.

Hamas is the symptom.

[EFerrari]

9. Why do you bother posting articles from that site?

[Alamuti Lotus]

10. hey, this one is better than some of the others "HardcoreProgressive" likes..

cf. Commentary, proud self-proclaimed bastion of neoconservative intellectualism.. :shrug:

[Shaktimaan]

11. The Jerusalem Post?

What in the world is wrong with TJP?

It's a normal, respectable newspaper. Maybe you have it mistaken for someone else.

[EFerrari]

13. No. This is the same paper that claimed Hamas was instituting crucifixion

either yesterday or the day before. They also claimed an Iranian newspaper had been shut down when their website was up and running just fine.

This is an outlet for extremists and they do no one any good.

[Vegasaurus]

14. The JP is a solid reputable paper

If you want to understand the conflict it is best to understand it from all angles.

[EFerrari]

21. No, I don't need to read right wing propaganda, thanks though!

[oberliner]

15. AFP: Iran shuts down leading reformist newspaper

TEHRAN (AFP) — The Iranian press watchdog shut down leading reformist newspaper Kargozaran on Wednesday over publication of a piece criticising Palestinian militants, the official IRNA news agency reported.

"Kargozaran has been banned over a media offence and the case has been referred to the court," Mohammad Parvizi, who is in charge of domestic media at the culture ministry, told IRNA.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gzTzyMkBVuWOrOkjlgTIze3Qn8tA

Reuters had the same basic story.

[ohio2007]

18. That paper is full of "Collaborators lies". Claiming Hamas was taking up positions inside hospitals

and claiming women and children were the human sheild for rocket launcher placements.

Those fools know the mullahs need to keep whiping the straw man every "hate week".

[DCKit]

35. Hah!! Good thing they didn't claim Hamas was dumping babies....

and shipping the incubators off to who-knows-where. Too many of U.S. remember that old chestnut.

However, given that all involved are intractable and we haven't been told the truth for so long, it's hard to tell fact from fiction anymore. I'm just sick to death of the whole mess.

[EFerrari]

22. The AFP story is much more developed and less hysterical.

I think I'll pass on the JP.

[Igel]

36. Kargozaaran's website is up and running just fine.

That was the newspaper reported as having been shut down.

The website's up and running just fine: http://www.kargozaaran.com/

There's a problem, though. The website and the newspaper are potentially different critters. If I have a website and drop dead from a heart attack, I'd really not like people saying I'm alive because my website's up. If somebody stops me from publishing, that doesn't mean they shut down what I've published.

I note that the home page for the website hasn't changed since it was claimed to have been shut down, and that's suspicious. Most newspapers tend to have something other than a big announcement on their home page. I've printed it out and see if I can wade through part of it tomorrow when I'm bored with what I usually do on Sundays; it may actually say something useful, if I can sort through Farsi morphology and actually use the dictionaries I have.

But there are links to pdfs of actual news coverage. The most recent is the issue bearing the date of the one that triggered the alleged shut down. It's highly unusual for a newspaper to publish weekly, or less often. It's January 5 there, and the last publication is still in December. Odd, that, for a newspaper that's still up and running.

Right now, pending trying to read the home page ... I'd say it's shut down and the website's orphaned. Both ad hominem arguments and appeals to authority are fallacies.

[cali]

40. Actually, they ran an opinion piece, not a report or editorial, but

be that as it may, people here from both sides post from sources that I personally think suck and are highly biased. That's just the way it goes. The thing is to look at each article and judge from there.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. It's a right-wing rag...

Not to mention its opinion pieces are very slanted towards the right-wing warmongering POV. I'd say it's as normal and respectable as some of Murdoch's stable here, like the Daily Telegraph, the Australian, etc...

[Shaktimaan]

39. so what?

So is the Wall Street Journal. And the Economist as well. It does not mean that they are not credible papers, does it? Since when do we bar sources for having a right or left wing slant? We bar sources if they lack credibility, which is not the case with JPost.

I am not familiar with the newspapers you mentioned. But I would hate to see any kind of news source discredited here because it didn't support a left wing viewpoint. One can be rightwing, warmongering, etc., and still be credible and newsworthy. I'd say The Economist is a stellar example. Remember, they supported the war against Saddam back in 2003. Would anyone say that their viewpoint blacklists them as a credible source of factual information because of that? The New York Times has had plenty of embarrassing blunders in the past few years. Should we bar them as well despite their left wing slant?

[EFerrari]

45. Read anything you want but if you read uncritically and without fact checking,

you're wasting your time.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

25. Others post from there and Haaretz as well

Its one of many sources. None by themselves should be considered cannonical, but if the Jpost and Ma'an agree, its most likely true

[madrchsod]

12. not a lot of creditability in that report

any report coming from the jp at this time with out a second verified source is suspect....

[ProgressiveProfessor]

28. Mixed actually

There have been many reports since the coup in Gaza that Hamas was executing and imprisoning member of Fatah. So the premise is reasonable. Then again there have also been reports of Hamas freeing Fatah fighters to help defend Gaza. Both are most likely correct given the C&C breakdown in Hamas

I don't take any single sourced story as cannonical, be it Al-J, Ma'an, Haaretz, IHT, Jpost, Ynet etc. I offered these up they had not yet been posted as grist for the mill.

[Vegasaurus]

16. They are also murdering supposed Israeli collaborators

as they lie injured in the hospital.

Hamas is bunch of sickos who have no regard whatsoever for human life, including that of their own people.

[Violet_Crumble]

29. Interesting how the only Palestinian deaths you get angry about are those done by Palestinians...

When they're killed by Israel, it's something to be defended...

Sickening....

[shira]

33. someone needs to be outraged by Hamas on Palestinian violence....the "pro-Palestinians" sure aren't

Or do you, like so many others here and elsewhere, only care for Palestinians when Israelis are behind the killings?

BTW, I get plenty angry at Israel when they don't do enough to stop senseless killings and the harming of Palestinians. They should crack down much harder on violent settlers and rogue soldiers. But let's not pretend they're acting like Hamas in this current war and are not doing perhaps the best job in any theatre of war by keeping the proportion of civilian casualties down to an all-time low.

Now for you. Knowing that Hamas deliberately puts their civilians in harm's way, how much blame do you assign to Hamas for provoking this latest war and its consequences to Palestinian civilians?

[Violet_Crumble]

41. I didn't realise being 'pro-Palestinian' meant we all think alike...

I really think you need to read people's posts more closely than you do coz there's a wide variety of differing opinions, just like there are with 'pro-Israelis'. I care about people getting killed, and unlike one or two here, I don't let whether the killing's done by an Israeli or Palestinian dictate whether I'll support it or be outraged by it....


But let's not pretend they're acting like Hamas in this current war and are not doing perhaps the best job in any theatre of war by keeping the proportion of civilian casualties down to an all-time low.

That's a very brave call to make. Are you aware of what the proportion was in the invasion of Iraq?

btw, I answered yr question in the other thread....

[ohio2007]

17. Collaborators will be shot

and the bodies will be paraded in front of the camera as cultural curiosities.

When are the next elections to be held in Gaza?

[azurnoir]

23. They are being held right now n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

27. I don't think little things like facts matter to that poster n/t

[azurnoir]

30. Good almost afternoon I think n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

31. You were close, it's late afternoon....

4pm AEST on the 4th of January to be precise. Which sucks, coz it means the nearly two-week chrissy break is nearly over and I have to go back to work tomorrow *sigh*

[azurnoir]

34. I was thinking 13 hours but it s 17 hours difference thanks n/t

[GoesTo11]

19. Should this be added to the toll of Gazan deaths since Israel's attack began?

What makes this conflict hard to parse is that Hamas prefers more deaths of everyone - Israelis, Palestinians, everyone. Israel prefers fewer deaths of everyone, and the PA isn't seeking deaths of Israelis and wants to avoid deaths of Palestinians. So when a Hamas suicide bomber kills an Israeli civilian, Hamas calls it a victory. When an Israeli attack on a Hamas target kills a civilian, Hamas calls it a victory.

[Statistical]

20. Don't forget Egyptians, and likely Americans

Hamas called for the Egyptian collaborators to be killed.
Eventually they will call for the American collaborators to be killed.

Anyone who dares prevent Hamas exercise their "sovereign" right to lob explosives into Israel will eventually be called a collaborator.

[shira]

37. and yet, virtually no one hostile towards Israel

will vocalize very clearly the responsibility of Hamas WRT civilian casualties that Hamas works hard to maximize.

[GoesTo11]

42. Here is an interesting exercise

For the casualties, figure out which ones are Hamas' fault and to what degree. Out of 500 deaths, there might be

350 Hamas
5 Israeli
40 collaborators killed directly by Hamas
50 human shields
15 members of Rayyin's family
15 in primary explosions in "dual-use" Hamas locations
15 in secondary explosions in "dual-use" Hamas locations
5 none of the above, but just caught in action that Hamas tried so hard to bring about.

This kind of analysis would give an idea of what casualties would be like if Hamas didn't try to maximize Palestinian casualties.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ohio2007]

44. delete message

it hit way to close to the truth

[Sultana]

46. Hmmm, I was wondering what happened to Fatah...

That whole region is messed up.

[EFerrari]

47. from Agence France Presse

Also on Sunday, chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erakat blasted Israel for its "crimes" and warned of a humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

"We don't want a repetition of the situation in Lebanon in 2006," when the United States and Britain spent weeks blocking a cease-fire resolution from the UN Security Council, Erakat told Al-Arabiya television, referring to Israel's 2006 war against this country. "We are calling for an unconditioned halting of the Israeli crimes," he added.

Erakat said the Fatah faction of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas was ready to hold unconditional talks with the rival Hamas, which controls Gaza, to form a united position in the face of the Israeli onslaught.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=98844