Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

"Many Gaza dead are civilians"... They're ALL civilians,

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU
 
LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:08 PM
Original message
"Many Gaza dead are civilians"... They're ALL civilians,
since Gaza doesn't happen to have a state military.

We truly need to fix our "media".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good luck with fixing the MSM
I have trouble listening to NPR these days without wanting to throw a shoe at them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. And some of them are civilians like Mohammed Atta was a civilian
You don't need to put on a uniform to be considered a militant.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Thank goodness that these militants can be identified from the air
Edited on Mon Dec-29-08 11:18 PM by Orrex
So that nobody's military needs to waste 100's of tons of ordnance on civilian targets.

Whew!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. So we invaded Afghanistan because....
:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Don't ask me--I wasn't consulted during the policy meeting
What's your point?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Well, since we also targeted terrorists from the air
and ostensibly weren't 100% accurate in our attacks, wouldn't that make our country guilty of whatever it is you're accusing Israel of?

You know, that sort of thing still happens. Remember that time we mistakenly bombed an Afghan wedding and killed dozens of innocent people? That was certainly a tragedy. Yet it didn't spark consistent 'round the clock outrage and hyperbole around here as occurs when Israel launches attacks like this. Why do you think that is?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Yes, you got that absolutely right.
The US has committed many similar war crimes. Does that make what Israel is doing any better?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Idealism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Newsflash: our country is guilty of war crimes
I guess you didn't get that memo
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Again, don't ask me--I don't set DU policy
I can tell you that on the forum where I was posting at the time, I did express outrage and disgust not only at the murder of those innocent civilians but at the craven attempt by our military to cover it up. And that's hardly the first or last time during our mighty War on Terror.

And help me out here: you're stating more or less clearly that it's okay for Israeli forces to bomb the shit out of Palestinian civilians because no one on DU complained when the US murdered Afghan civilians? :wtf:

I'm sure that, if you check the archives, you'll find plenty of outrage and disgust surrounding the bombing of that wedding and similar careless massacres. None of them justifies the current Gaza campaign.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Idealism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Well if you are wearing a graduation cap, you are a student
They bombed 2 graduation ceremonies, but I guess they might be militants in the future.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. They were Hamas police officer graduation ceremonies
That part always seems to get left out.

Condemn that attack by all means, but don't give the impression that it was something other than what it was.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #15
55. The other part that left out was that a good deal of them
the armed militant police were traffic cops
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. All Palestinians can be redefined as terrorists, right?
It's sort of like Iraqi Liberation.

Palestinians who come out for the humanitarian aid intentionally let through by Israelis as bait: terrorists.

Traffic police lined up for their graduation ceremony: terrorists.

Schoolchildren next door: terrorists.

Etc.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
33. Pakistan funneled money to Atta . . .
Wonder if CIA had anything to do with that --- ???

That's how CIA originally set up the Taliban/Al Qaeda --- thru Pakistan ISI.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
4. Technically you are wrong
Police and militia are not considered to be civilians.

So some of the casualties, are civilians, and some are either paramilitary, the police, or quasi military, the militias.

The former are uniformed and so are the latter...

The fact that we do not recognize them as a lawful combatant does not mean they are not given that recognition by some NGO,s for the purposes of humanitarian law... see ICRC... which I suppose will be making sure nobody uses their ambulances in ways proscribed by international law.

sorry to be a stickler for reality...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Idealism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Police forces under the UN guidelines are considered civilians
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Read ICRC... And by the way, they are considered PARAMILITARIES
read that again, PARAMILITARIES

You do know why? Don't you? (And that goes for your local cops too)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
58. But it was a graduation ceremony meaning
they were not yet officially police they were still officially civilians.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
8. Hamas has an armed military wing called the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades
I don't think anyone would consider them civilians.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. But apparently because Israel can't be 100% sure of only killing them
it shouldn't take any action.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. False dichotomy
Are the only choices "do nothing" and "bomb the shit out of civilian targets?"


Just wondering.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Here is another reality check, which I happen to hate Iand this applies whether
it is Israel bombing Gaza, or the Syrians bombing the Falangists in Souther Lebanon back in the day)

Most combatants in the ME, tend to HIDE their facilities in between civilians targets... sometimes on purpose, sometimes no choice.

In Gaza, (as well as the Falangists controlled area of the city of Sidon) it has to do with conditions on the ground and not having a lot of space to build a proper military base that can be legally bombed to the non-scolding (Guffaws) of the international community... oh wait, when the Syrians were up to it there was no peep from anybody.

By the way, the Israelis have from time to time taken on the same practice, like last year, to those of us paying attention... the IDF placed an Artillery Battery in a street corner in one of the northern cities... guess what happens to the people living around that artillery battery? Yes, they became legal targets, and hard to distinguish from the surrounding civilians.

Of course to many Americans the current devils (who were the heroes before 1967) are doing this on purpose, because they are evil. Never mind geography, city planning, urban density and all that jazz.

And of course most americans are ignorant of the laws of land warfare, or for that matter, the history of the conflict, which goes much farther back than May 15, 1948

I expect to be called all kinds of names, even nazi, for stating this... but hey, whatever trips everybody's trigger...

At this point I expect this every time the ME gets hot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. You're right
but apparently people think it would be possible for Hamas (even if they wanted to do so) to create installations away from civilian areas in such a small and densely populated environment. Therefore, I don't think what I said was a false dichotomy. In the case of the Gaza Strip especially, Israel only has so many options. It can either do nothing, or risk killing civilians because the geography of the Strip compels civilians to live near Hamas installations. I guess the third option would be to revert to target assassinations, but that didn't go over well either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. I meant this to Orrex, but you understand this, and I realized this
the reaction from Arab Governments is far more telling than the arab street

The arab street is PO'ed, and so is increasingly at least some sections of the American street

But I suspect at a very high policy making level this is just one more episode in the efforts to tamp down on extremists in the middle east...

I hate it that civilians die, but this is the other thing people don't want to get... a lot of this is blowback to American foreign policy going back to the Reagan years (Taliban, we armed them), as well as Western Policies.

Sadly I don't know if in the long run this will work. And for all our sakes I hope that someday we see peace in the ME... and other areas of the world that are just a tad on the hot side
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #22
62. Option three would be to stop treating Hamas as a military target
You don't send in the army to get the Mafia bosses, and you shouldn't send them after the terrorists, either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Here's a simple way to handle a military target sandwiched between two civilian targets
Don't bomb it! Or, if you do bomb it, then be prepared to accept that you've surrendered any moral authority to justify your bombing campaign. (Not your bombing campaign, of course, but the general "your" campaign.)


If a murderer has surrounded himself with innocent hostages, should I kill all of them just to take out the murderer?


I don't have any intention to call you any names because what would be the point? We disagree on the appropriateness of action in this conflict, but me calling you something isn't going to change that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Following a policy like that would only encourage militants to ensconce themselves in civilian areas
and would also grant them a feeling of safety from doing so. You'd basically be saying "we want to fight you, but if you're going to make your headquarters on Elm Street we won't touch you". Does that make sense?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Is the alternative to kill scores of civilians?
Then yes, I'd say that it makes sense.

Do whatever you want to boost your own defense, but if you're knowingly going to bomb civilians, then you've lost all moral authority to claim to be the injured party.


So I have a meth lab in my basement and a cache of weapons. Should the cops blow up my neighbor's house, just because I happen to live next door?


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. The cops do, regularly
hate to point this out. Sometimes by accident. well we like to think mostly when that happens by accident

By the by, one of the worst calls one can go to IS a meth lab... talk about HAZMAT and explosive hazard from hell!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. I just explained the reality
Edited on Mon Dec-29-08 11:44 PM by nadinbrzezinski
by the way... how long do you think the American Government would be able, or willing, to stand by while I don't know... San Antonio gets bombed every day with rockets?

And here is another fact of war. having been there, done that... you see young people die, and there is nothing you can do about it

And no matter how careful you are in your targeting... civilians die.

It is a tragedy. and I never said they were justified in the scale of the action, you decided I did... again par for the course

But unlike you, I understand why this is happening, and unlike you, I don't let emotion drive my judgement of the situation.

And unlike you, I realize that if Hammas managed to defeat the Israelis. and drive them to the sea, today's bully would become tomorrow's victim... and today's victim would become tomorrow's bully. See the history of US Israeli relations and the American street.

After all, until 1957 they were all but our allies... in the 1960s we got warmer to them, and until 1967 they were the underdog, and people spoke of the conflict in david and goliath terms.

To me, if you are willing to take sides, go all the way... and that goes for supporters on both sides.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Right, right. You're cool and rational and I'm a crazy hot-head
And the crazy hot-head is advocating for civilian lives. How crazy is that!


For the record, I don't support the military of either side. I am on the side of the civilians on both sides who are being murdered for reasons that have little to do with them. If Israelis and Palestinians were dying at a ratio of, say, 1:1, then I'd be condemning both sides equally.

And no kidding civilians die. I'm not an idiot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. Your posts are those driven by emotion
hate to point this to you.

Now in an ideal world, we wouldn't even be having this conversation... but do tell me... and try to connect some dots here.

Why is it that the arab street is exploding, but the governments of the ME are strangely silent on this?

It could not have anything to do with the nature of Hamas, now could it? Nah, just that the Israelis and every Arab guv'ment hates the people and the Palestinians, yep, that must be it... (And by the way, this morning NPR was pretty nice with the Arab street... Yehud is JEW, not Israeli... so I had to go... how much more of their translation of the Arab street was doctored)

As to civilians, yes it is a tragedy, but until whatever hells are put back in that bottle, until next time, unfortunately. all I can do is watch, and try to see if and when EITHER side breaks the rules... which brings forth MORE casualties

Technically speaking... HAMAS putting a MHQ in the middle of a densely populated city is a violation, FYI. Just as it was when the IDF placed that artillery battery in that corner. So if I was going to be fair, I'd say that as much as the Israelis are targeting this MHQ, why is hammas placing it there? I know about city density, but still, the choice of where things are built, is not just it was open.

Oh and do tell me, since you are that concerned about Civilians, how exactly did Hamas end up in charge in an area where they can launch every day of the week, and twice on the Sabbath?

See the point about the silence from Arab Governments for some dot connecting...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. And yours are choked with patronizing insult, but who's counting?
I don't know what you want me to say, frankly. How about "Israel is justified in doing whatever it wants because an inferior military power has committed violations." Would that do the trick?

Or is that too emotional? Even if it is, I don't see how it differs from the facts on the ground.

Given your apparently uniquely informed perspective, why don't you tell us the exact justified limits on Israel's actions in this conflict. Are cluster bombs okay again, for instance?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #40
49. I get tired of the willful ignorance on this, and other subjects
But hey, if you want to hate the IDF for being war criminals, hey, whatever trips yer trigger....

After all, life is not black and white in my world, but mostly because I have been there, done that, and actually had to deal with the reality in the field

Now if you want to do some dot connecting, start with the way that Hamas took over the Gaza strip... who is considered the ACTUAL head of the Palestinian Authority, free clue look at Ramallah for that... and exactly what happened five seconds after the cease fire Cairo negotiated this year ended.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. I can't quite see where you answered my question there
What, in your view, are the limits on Israel's justifiable action in this conflict?

Are cluster bombs okay again, for instance?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. If I had my way, there would be no fighting, alas in the real world that will not happen
but in the real world, the casualty rate, according to the PALESTINIAN PRESS is 80% HAMAS...

Which is, unfortunately, well within acceptable limits in wars. Why? Most people who actually have done this in the field realize that no-matter how careful you are, CIVIES ALWAYS GET CAUGHT when you let the dogs of war slip

As to cluster bombs, they are not justifiable by anybody... alas neither is DIRECTLY targeting civilains... or in my view, mines... again another one that we use, by the by.

As far as we know, Hamas has DIRECTLY targettted civilians... the Israelis have not..

By the way, 80% Hamas, means MILITARY TARGETS... you can tell the difference right? (and I'd like to ask the next question, WHO in the Palestinian press?)


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. Bully for Israel. That means they've only killed 40+ Palestinian civilians
Which is worse: targeting civilians and killing a handful, or targeting military sites and killing dozens of civilians?

Mines are a crime against humanity. But surely you're aware that Israel has used cluster bombs? What's the justified response to that, I wonder? And how is that morally superior to directly targeting civilians?


And here's a rhetorical tip for you, free of charge: regardless of your field-wrought first-hand knowledge of this conflict, it would be lovely if you could write just one of your posts in such a way as to exclude the condescension. It makes you come across as a blowhard, especially when you're admonishing someone for being too emotional.



That's all for me. Good night.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Prepostericity Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. This is not an eye for an eye
Edited on Mon Dec-29-08 11:37 PM by Prepostericity
Picture the New York Yankees with weapons, and you have Israel.

18 Israelis killed in 8 years or so from Hamas mortar attacks? 355 Palestinians killed in days?

Many Israelis are upset with their fascist military decisions. Palestinians are not rejecting their government due to barbaric Israeli attacks. But I guess when the #1 super bomber the USA can do the same kind of embargo crap like with Iraq, then friggen bombed the f out of them, none of us are innocent.

I'm curious of Obama's reaction to this. I realise he picked a chief of staff pro-Israel. I bet there could be some political movement in Israel. Knock on wood there is a return to sanity and peace and love.

It's like that line from Platoon. The enemy is us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
36. and I'm sure it compares with the joint Israel/US defense production . . .
people say Israeli and US defense production is so closely intertwined that

you can barely tell them apart ---

Plus we supply them with weapons --- and fund them!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
20. This is rather disingenuous
I don't agree with Israel's strikes, but saying that nobody in Gaza has a military purpose because they don't have a formal military is obscurantist. Anyone who is launching rockets or directly involved in attacks on Israel is at least a paramilitary and thus a legitimate target. What bothers me is not Israel retaliating against rockets flying into its territory, but the disproportionate scale on which it is doing so, with the inevitable collateral damage.

I mean let's be realistic here. Gaza is not a giant rainbow gathering. I acknowledge the fact that they elected Hamas and I think the Israelis should find a way to deal with that reality, but Hamas should not be randomly chucking rockets around either, even if they do comparatively little damage.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Prepostericity Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. what you just said
Edited on Mon Dec-29-08 11:39 PM by Prepostericity
but then again on edit- 18 people get killed in a US city in a month. Israel is completely wrong here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
38. Gaza Strip is being denied food and medicine, etc. -- Israel is a nuclear nation -- !!!
We are arming Israel and paying the costs of the weapons!!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. That has nothing to do with the point I was making.
Go ply your woo-woo messages elsewhere. I am not endorsing Israel.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
29. Civilians don't launch rocket attacks
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Prepostericity Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. women and children
universities, etc..

This is one heck of an evil escapade the Israeli government is allowing. There must be a large segment of Israel upset with this useless mayhem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. Nixon armed right-wing fundamentalist Israelis, thereby burying the liberal-left wing
Israeli peace-seekers ---

The Fundies murdered Izaac Rabin in order to keep a hold over nation --

and avoid any new peace adventures ---

I think we've owned and directed r-w Israel policy for quite a long, long time --

Our first foothold in ME -- the pathway to oil and domination.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Prepostericity Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. I agree with this
It's the US which owns Israel, not the other way around. Our political system is allowing the top 1% of fat cats and the murdering military to maintain havoc year in year out. When I'm President, we're gonna go like Japan and slash that defense budget beyond the beyond.

And this has nothing to do with Jewish people. Our government is evil. Should we as individuals bear the brunt of the Americans who stink?

I think Chomsky wrote about how all the governments suck.

I gotta get some shut eye. There's always hope.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #41
51. Right . . . and about time we questioned all of this ....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #34
46. The university targets seem to clearly be valid, they were weapon development sites
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #34
48. They are upset from the suicide bombers and rocket attacks they have to deal with
You can criticize Israel's actions, but this idea that they bare sole responsibility for this mess is just absurd.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. ...
:wow:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #35
43. Well, that was informative
Did this point not occur to you or something?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fozzledick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-29-08 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
32. I guess they just wear uniforms and carry weapons as a fashion statement
and the rocket launchers are just accesories...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #32
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #44
57. Wow you just made killing children in Gaza OK
wasn't that your point?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #57
61. Let's discuss when you are sober.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #32
45. Your snark doesn't improve the quality of discussion.
The OP is stupid. Your snark, equally so.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
47. Current estimates from Palestinian media is 80% Hamas


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #47
53. So if someone is employed by Hamas (eg civil servants) or a member they're not a civilian?
I don't think it works like that, anymore than the claim in the OP that they're all civilians. It's clear that people like policemen and other civil servants aren't combatants. The people who Israel is supposed to be targetting is actual combatants, I thought, though I did read a rather disturbing article this morning where some Israeli general said they were going after anything to do with Hamas. Which leads me to a question aimed in general at anyone reading this. Do you think that civil servants and members of Hamas who aren't involved in attacks on Israel should be killed? Would you go so far as to say that any member or employee of Hamas should be killed anyway?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Alamuti Lotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. Their acceptance of that argument would place a precedent
that precedent would of course not be accepted, however, let me elaborate on why. Since (virtually) all Israeli citizens must serve in the armed forces for a period of time, that means there are (virtually) no civilians in Israel. There, problem solved -- let Total Warfare (a smashing idea from the European 'World Wars' I & II) commence! ...no?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kurska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #56
60. Veterans don't count as current agents of the states.
But thanks for trying.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kurska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
59. You're defining men who act as the enforcer of a area and whose job it is to fight invaders
As civilians? Oh wow... so essentially you live in a world where men are women and words no longer mean anything.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 03:37 AM
Response to Original message
63. But they still have combatants
Civilians/combatants is a valid distinction IMO.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
undergroundrailroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 05:09 AM
Response to Original message
64. Locking per I/P Guidelines
New threads must be based on a recently-published news item or op-ed piece.

Please review our policy when posting in the Israel/Palestine Forum.

Please NOTE: Editorializations and comments are to be saved for the Message body and must be separate and distinct from the text of the article.

Please feel free to re-post topic according to protocol.

Undergroundrailroad
DU Lead Moderator
Israel/Palestine Forum
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Jul 25th 2014, 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC