Report: At least 120 dead in Israeli airstrikes on Gaza City

[ProgressiveMuslim]

Israeli missiles target Gaza

Gaza – Ma'an – At least 120 Palestinians were killed when Israel’s air force fired missiles at more than 30 Gaza City targets at noon on Saturday.

Live video broadcasts showed dozens of injured and dead Palestinians in Gaza City, many of them screaming, while Palestinian ambulances raced to the scene.

Black smoke billowed over Gaza City into the afternoon as medics evacuated the wounded from targeted de facto government buildings, believed to be the main target in the air raids.

Men, women and children were killed in the airstrikes.
http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=342...


From Al Jazeera:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/20...

Israel has launched air strikes on Hamas installations in Gaza City, killing at least 120 people and causing heavy damage, according to officials and witnesses.

At least 30 missiles were fired at targets on Saturday, with the head of emergency services in Gaza saying that at least 200 people were also wounded.

Hamas were said to have requested al-Quassam Brigades, its military wing, to respond with all possible means.

Tawfiq Jabber, the Gaza police chief, was reportedly killed in one attack.

Islam Shahwan, Hamas police spokesman, said that the attacks destroyed most of the police headquarters in the Gaza Strip and that a police graduation ceremony was hit as it was being held in Gaza City.

The unprecedented number of simultaneous strikes were described as "massive" by the AFP news agency.

Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president and leader of Fatah, condemned the "aggression" in Gaza.

The Israel army released a statement saying "terrorist installations" were hit and that all Israeli pilots returned unharmed.

It added that if necessary the operation would continue.

The air raids follow the decision by the Israeli security cabinet to increase reprisals for cross-border rocket attacks against Israel, and the breakdown of a six-month-old Israel-Hamas truce earlier this month.

[Hope And Change]

1. This shit never ends.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

2. Make that 150 dead. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

3. First reports.

[madrchsod]

4. what is the point of this semite tribal warfare ?

[cali]

5. huh?

people fight people of the same ethnic background all the time, and they have for thousands of years.

[cali]

6. Indefensible response to the rocket attacks.

I strongly condemn the rocket attacks, but this is just horrendous.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. And what would be a "defensible" response?

[cali]

8. I don't know. But I don't think that killing 150 Gazans will

do anything to staunch attacks out of Gaza and it may actually increase those attacks and attacks out of the WB.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. So, an inappropriate response, but no idea what would be appropriate?

Would any response (other than wagging a finger) be appropriate?

[Ghost Dog]

12. Withdrawal from all of the occupied territories, back to the 1967

cease-fire line, or thereabouts, by negotiation if possible, would be appropriate. With Jerusalem placed under UN 'open city' jurisdiction.

Employ civilised intelligence and policing methods to contain and confront threats inside Israel's then legitimate borders.

Something along those lines?

[Behind the Aegis]

15. Were it that simple.

Let's see, Israel withdrew from Gaza....that's gone well.

"With Jerusalem placed under UN 'open city' jurisdiction."

Are you fucking kidding?! That was the ORIGINAL plan. We all see how well that went.

"Employ civilised intelligence and policing methods to contain and confront threats inside Israel's then legitimate borders."

So, only "internal border" issues should be of concern?

In all your "suggestions," what exactly should the Palestinians do?

[Ghost Dog]

18. Yes. Unfortunately, the ORIGINAL plan was never properly implemented,

due no doubt in large part to British lack of will or honour or simply intransigence.

Palestinians will need help to consolidate themselves and rebuild a law-abiding society secure on their own lands.

(Edit: I'm listening to the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/worldservice/m... ).

[hack89]

56. What then?

do you then expect Hamas to recognize Israel and end the violence?

Or, having created two sovereign state, does this give Israel the moral and legal right to respond to continuing attacks from Palestine in accordance with the UN charter? Seems like a recipe to increase violence.

How does Israel "contain and confront threats outside Israel's then legitimate borders."? Israel police and intelligence agencies can't operate withing a sovereign Palestine, can they? If Palestine can't stop militants from shooting rockets into Israel doesn't the UN charter give Israel the right to confront Palestine with military means?

[Ghost Dog]

62. Threats to Israel (and to Palestine) should then stop.

Assuming Israel were to play fair in that situation, any continuing violence from the Palestinian side should be dealt with under UN (international, tough) auspices (and vice-versa), yes.

[hack89]

77. Really?

based on what? Hamas has never said that they are fighting for the 67 borders. They want all of Israel so why do you think the violence will stop?

[Ghost Dog]

104. Of course Hamas and all others would have to recognise Israel

and cease all violence under such a peace deal.

[hack89]

105. But they have categorically denied wanting peace with Israel

the elimination of Israel is their goal. They are not reluctant to say that - why shouldn't we believe them?

[Ghost Dog]

106. And the elimination of (Hamas and an independent) Palestine

appears at present to be (right-wing factions of) Israel's goal. So?

These things must change. Or else... Look forward to a future of unlimited insecurity and conflict all round.

[hack89]

110. There has been peace before

life was much better for the Palestinians before the intifada. The pattern is clear - no terrorism means a better life for the Palestinians. How many times has Hamas been warned that Israel will not tolerate missile attacks from Gaza? Why does Hamas continue to shoot missiles? They suffer because they never fail to make the worst choice possible.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

116. I could take your reasoning to its logical conclusion and ask

why not back to the original borders in the UN Mandate?

[cali]

13. No. I have no answers to this conflict. I don't pretend to

In fact, I believe it's intractable. And I condemn Hamas for their rocket attacks on Israeli communities.

[Behind the Aegis]

16. There is a difference.

Israel has attacked Hamas, the government, in Gaza. Hamas has attacked, Israelis, not the government nor army.

Edit: spelling

[cali]

24. Israel's attack killed many more civilians than Hamas rockets did Israeli civilians

Furthermore, Israel knew when they launched this attack that many civilians would die. Civilian deaths may not be planned by Israeli policies, but they clearly are seen as acceptable.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. How do you know the number of civlian casualties?

It hasn't been released.

"Civilian deaths may not be planned by Israeli policies, but they clearly are seen as acceptable."

Bullshit, and you know it.

[cali]

28. Why is that bullshit? Seriously, that the Israeli forces

attacked in a way that made civilian casualties inevitable, seems to be pretty strong evidence that civilian casualties are acceptable to those that planned this attack. And no, I don't know how many civilians were injured or killed. But surely you don't deny that there were civilian casualties in this attack?

[Behind the Aegis]

30. I can't deny or confirm anything.

I don't know who was killed. They could ALL be civilians for all I know (or you for that matter).

Why is it bullshit? Because Israel is attacking targets known for attacking Israel. Hamas, on the other hand, attacks anything in Israel. You see the difference? Yes, Israel may kill civilians, but that isn't the goal. Can you honestly say it is the same for Hamas?

[cali]

32. I'm hardly making the claim that Hamas doesn't target Israeli civilans

Clearly they do. And that's reprehensible. I am making the case that Palestinian civilian casualties are acceptable to the Israeli gov't, not that they deliberately target civilians. I don't think that's OK either.

[Behind the Aegis]

33. Still wrong.

"I am making the case that Palestinian civilian casualties are acceptable to the Israeli gov't, not that they deliberately target civilians."

No, Israel knows Palestinian civilian casualties are a reality. They do what they can, sometimes not nearly as good as they could, to minimize those deaths. Hamas....doesn't give a shit.

[PaDem]

112. utter baloney.............

I've read this whole thread and your intellectual dishonesty knows no bounds. You have no clue what goes on over there and yet you're in every Israel/Palestine thread defending Israel's actions. Israel does what it can to minimize civilian deaths? Hamas doesn't "give a shit", and Israel sure as hell doesn't "give a shit" about Palestinian civilians either.

[Behind the Aegis]

113. Now, bullshit from you?

You obviously know nothing about me or my posts. I do know what goes on there much better than many here, and it appears, just from your one post, I know more than you.

[oberliner]

46. I agree with you

Is there any army that does not see some civilian casualties as "acceptable"? I would say Israel is no different from the rest of the countries of the world in this regard.

That said, it does seem like this attack targeted Hamas security compounds and militant bases. I've not seen any specific word on civilian casualties. I would imagine that there will be some, but I think that the vast majority of those killed were most likely not civilians.

In any case, I agree with your other comment that this attack will probably not bring the region closer to peace.

[azurnoir]

38. At least one of our Israeli posters has admitted quite diffrently

acceptable or just plain do not care.

[SOS]

78. From the New York Times, children and constructions workers dead:

"There was a shocking quality to Saturday’s attacks, in broad daylight on about 100 sites, as police cadets were graduating, women were shopping at the outdoor market and children were emerging from school.
The center of Gaza City instantly became a scene of chaotic horror, with rubble everywhere, sirens wailing, and women shrieking as dozens of mutilated bodies were laid out on the pavement and in the lobby of Shifa Hospital so that family members could identify them. The vast majority of those killed were Hamas police officers and security men, including two senior commanders, but the dead included several construction workers and at least two children in school uniforms.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/28/world/middleeast/28mi...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

117. It appears like the IAF was using the most accurate munitions available

which are laser guided bombs. However their employment is not foolproof. Furthermore its not possible to be "surgical" with high explosives, the physics just doesn't work that way. Clearly civilian deaths were foreseeable and clearly Israel conspired them to be acceptable.

[LeftishBrit]

37. I agree.

On the basis of what's happened in the past, it will just breed more violence. And probably increase Hamas' popularity, which had been waning (and should be waning even more).

[ProgressiveMuslim]

9. How many will die to prevent "shock" in Sderot?

I'm watching piles of headless corpses, women, children on Al Jazeerah...

In the words of Alan Dershowitz, they're just cockroaches.

Shame. Shame. Shame.

This Deir Yassein is being captured live on tape.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. I don't know.

How many "martyrs" will Hamas create in order to kill Israelis?

Yes, shame, shame, shame, on HAMAS for not caring about the very people who placed them in power!

[ProgressiveMuslim]

14. Injured being carried to hospitals where the only equipment is gauze.

Blown up bodies being treated with fucking band aids.

What a proud day for Israel!

[Behind the Aegis]

17. Wow! You should write for the propaganda sites you post from (or do you already?).

"Injured being carried to hospitals where the only equipment is gauze. Blown up bodies being treated with fucking band aids."

That's not even hyperbole, that's just bullshit!

What a proud day for Hamas!

[AnOhioan]

19. You understand propaganda better than anyone here...

You have been posting it for years.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. So says one who wouldn't know truth if it bit him on the ass.

Of course, you love propaganda, just as long as Israel is the target.

[AnOhioan]

21. Oh, so you and and only you are the arbiter of 'truth'

Nice try. I am pleased that there are those here not buying what you're selling.

[Behind the Aegis]

23. LMAO! Yes, I claim to be the "sole arbiter of 'truth'".

Anymore strawmen?

"I am pleased that there are those here not buying what you're selling."

I am sure you are. You like anti-Israeli propaganda so much more.

Edit: spelling and remark change.

[AnOhioan]

25. No I do not 'hate' Israelis....

to insinuate that shows your bias. What I do hate is the Israeli governments continued policy of illegal settlement expansion, institutionalized degradation of anything and everything Palestinian, and the apologists who perpetuate the whole cycle.

I have nothing but respect for those Israeli citizens on the left who see the conflict with objectivity and actually work towards peace.

Are certain Palestinians guilty of attacks agaisnt Israel? Yes. Are 'all' Palestinians guilty? No.

The same can be said in reverse, certain Israelis are guilty as hell, others are not.

I blame those in power on both sides of the coin.

I also note that 15O dead Palestinians is not equal to a week of rocket attacks that left few dead.

[Behind the Aegis]

27. So, it is all about "equal number of dead."

You showed your bias a long time ago. You are anti-Israeli, not pro-Palestinian. Do you even understand the difference or is that lost on you?

[AnOhioan]

103. You can talk out your ass all you want

The bias here is yours, not mine.

[Behind the Aegis]

109. No, it is yours. You have never wavered in your "bias."

[azurnoir]

39. LOL pot meet kettle n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

94. says the skillet.

[azurnoir]

114. Well thankyou n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

29. It's not bullshit. It's the face of Israel on December 27, 2008.

Thank God that Al Jazeera reporters have the courage to stay put and document Israel's atrocities.

And there wasn't an injured person with more treatment more sophisticated than gauze wrapping. Of course gauze is no help for the headless burned bodies laying in the streets.

Your inability to admit the reality is at least commentary on your humanity. What Israel has wrought is too awful even for you to admit.

[Behind the Aegis]

31. More propaganda from you? Say it isn't so?!

"And there wasn't an injured person with more treatment more sophisticated than gauze wrapping."

That isn't what you said, now was it?!

"Of course gauze is no help for the headless burned bodies laying in the streets."

No, it isn't. Then again, propaganda like yours relies on their deaths. I believe Hamas calls them "martyrs."

"Your inability to admit the reality is at least commentary on your humanity."

The reality is you are spewing propaganda and it says much about YOUR humanity.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

35. Turn on the TV, BTA... Anyone with 2 eyes can see.

I understand your need to minimize Israel's crimes though.

[Vegasaurus]

22. More than 200 rockets have been fired at Israel since the "truce" ended

(all through the truce, only a "few" rockets were fired).

Israel tried to close borders to get the rockets to cease, but there has been international outcry, and even as rockets were falling at dozens a day, they opened the borders to let in supplies.

Israel threatened a reprisal if the rockets didn't stop.

Hamas refused to stop the rockets.

There is a reprisal.

It's called cause and effect, but Hamas has always been too stupid to understand the simplest things.

The Israel haters would rather that Israelis simply let supplies pour in and Do nothing while rockets terrorize their citizens.

Too bad, Hamas. I hope you terrorists all rot in hell.

And for the innocents?

Tragic, particularly the minority who don't support the insanity of Hamas.

[Sezu]

34. Too stupid or......

purposely uncaring since the deaths will feed the anti-Israel crowd and no doubt elicit funds and support for continued Hamas terrorism?

[azurnoir]

40. Hmmmm another "death is good for them post"

the single mindedness of the "righteous" always amazes, where have you been or just dropping by to cheer the deaths of Palestinians?

[Vegasaurus]

53. Who's cheering?

Hamas is the biggest bunch of stupid losers around, since they themselves are probably cheering the deaths of the Palestinian innocents.

These attacks help them advance their hideously egregious campaign of support, when Hamas itself is responsible for each and everyone of these deaths.

[Sezu]

64. Good for them?

Hardly. I think it is a stupid tactic for Hamas to take.

[azurnoir]

68. So now you are trying to claim that I am cheering Hamas? n/t

[Vegasaurus]

75. who knows what you are cheering, since your posts are impossible to decipher

[TheRealThing]

52. Hamas is actually very smart

for starters look how they

1) Got world media wrapped around there fingers.
2) They always provoke a bloody war (and get more positive to them of course publicity from it when Israel retaliates)
3) They managed to control the Palestinian people frightening them into total submission.(through a massive bloodshed of the Fatah - a Palestinian political party)
4) Manage to sway uninformed and simple people all over the world into believing they are the poor underdog, and all they care about is peace.

for accomplishing these 4 goals they are able to:
remove world interest from real travesty's, which most of the world (and probably the people here) are oblivious to,
such as "Ugandan rebel group kills 35 civilians in DR Congo (27-12-08)" this is a daily matter for some parts of the world
i don't play on the death count issue but for those of you who do, THOUSANDS (more correctly 100,000 deaths annually) caused in some region's in Africa.
and no headlines for such atrocities, no public media organization making it an issue. i have watched many times when a single person in gaza got more attention world wide
then 30,50,100 people got, while both being killed by some group.

hamas gains from chaos, its power is in the unhappiness of people he get plenty of support and followers while situation is bad
any time a peace was on the way they have deliberately sabotaged it. ANY terror faction gains the most while there is hatred.
terror organizations should receive no mercy.

Number (3) is prob' most helpful to hamas , unlike in Israel where they can condemn there government at times they think it has made mistakes
and like many times before open trial against there officials.
IF ANY ONE is brave/stupid enough in the Palestinian authority to go out against its goverment/hamas/any public official he will not survive the next day

EVEN REPORTERS are not free to voice there opinion while in the Gaza strip (they will be killed or kidnapped if so, but they have to report something so they do very lightly)
here are references to such cases :
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14425949 /
http://archive.japantoday.com/jp/news/411331
http://www.newssafety.com/index.php?view=article&catid=...

another disturbing fact is if they (hamas/Palestinian authority) wish to hide things they can , by simply threating to deny a news agency the right to work inside the area effectively threatening into submission.
such as 9/11 : http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_I...
when news agency were threaten not to publish 9/11 celebrations in the Palestinian authority or there news license would be revoked.

[azurnoir]

86. Oh yeah Alsn Johnston the BBC

reporter who Hamas freed last May? But more recently it has been Israel blocking reporters from Gaza.

welcome to DU another "new" Pro with no profile why are you guys so paranoid?

[wellst0nev0ter]

70. Israel Was The One Who Broke The Ceasefire In The First Place

Amazing how you never hear the Israel-right-or-wrong crowd mention this.

[pelsar]

81. it wasnt a cease fire....

the correct translation was "a calming down"....i.e. less violence...which is why both sides had less attacks and didnt follow the usual "tit for tat"......

just a correction...i see from your few posts, that your not that knowledgeable of the actual facts....try to catch up

[wellst0nev0ter]

83. Yeah, That's Why All Reports Called It A Ceasefire

God, even your usual newspeak doesn't make sense anymore. Fine, I guess next time I'll let you define the terms of the debate, if that will make you feel better and come up with more plausible responses.

[azurnoir]

88. He was trying to use semantics to kill

the comment ynet however does not seem to agree

[pelsar]

95. just the proper definition...

not to mention that facts of that period bear out the fact that there was no actual cease fire from either side (do you really want a list of the kassams shot and the israeli incursions during that period.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

101. Nevermind that the Israeli media use the English word "ceasefire" daily...

Pelsar obvioulsy received the talking points!

[pelsar]

119. "talking points"...

sorry i speak for no one but myself.....and have too much experience to be bothered by "revision of definitions" or "everybody else does it therefor it must be true...."

i was never very good with "group think".....try elsewhere.

[pelsar]

96. did you actually read your link?

i dont see a "cease fire" in all of those "infractions".....

i guess your version of "newspeak" means actual definitions are not good......since there was no actual cease fire, your going to have to redefine it.....

[wellst0nev0ter]

98. A Lot Better Than You

Those infractions took place before the ceasefire actually started.

Now please stop with the spamming.

[pelsar]

120. huh?....

so define cease fire if you will..doesnt that mean "nobody shoots?.....and if there is a constant amount of shooting, using the definition of "cease fire" doesnt that mean that the ceasefire doesnt exist?

(ah..but then you cant blame israel...of course those kassams and mortars anyway dont count...right?)

btw...the hebrew papers were more precise as were the hamas spokesmen.....they used the word "calming down".....guess they figured that the western press wouldnt understand it...cultural and all...and since you seem to be having trouble with the actual definition of the word cease fire i would say they were correct.

[wellst0nev0ter]

123. I Don't Know Why Hebrew Newspapers Have Less Problem

using the word "cease fire" in their English counterparts than you, unless they wanted to spread anti-Israeli dissinformation

And the events you pointed out in the article still happened before the ceasefire actually started.

gg.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

36. 'Only just beginning'

The Israel army released a statement saying "terrorist installations" were hit and that all Israeli pilots returned unharmed.


Palestinian officials called on the international community to condemn the raids
The operation against the Hamas is "only just beginning," Avi Benayahu, an Israeli military spokesman said.

The air raids follow the decision by the Israeli security cabinet to increase reprisals for cross-border rocket attacks against Israel, and the breakdown of a six-month-old Israel-Hamas truce earlier this month.

The ceasefire expired on December 19, with Hamas arguing that Israel had violated the truce by preventing vital food and medical supplies into the Strip.

Ayman Mohyeldin, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Gaza, said: "A series of explosions were heard over Gaza City.

"From where we are, there are at least seven different clouds of smoke from the strikes. We are seeing some casualties being evacuated in cars."

Egypt has opened the Rafah crossing with the Gaza Strip to receive injured people, Egyptian officials said. Ambulances have been sent to the crossing and two Egyptian hospitals emptied to take in the wounded.


more...
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/20...

[pelsar]

41. a little clarification of the civilian casualties within gaza..

a few points:

when dropping a 1000kg bomb on a city not matter how precise it is, the explosion and the debris will spread wide and hurt and kill many in the area...its also reasonable to assume it will weaken the structures of buildings next to it, which may latter collapse.... civilians in the area will no doubt be casualties (500lb bombs will not destroy the target and therefore are not useful)

paramilitary forces, military forces and the govt offices of a govt that attacks are legit targets...it is up to that govt to remove civilians from those areas during a war...using civilians as a shields is a "no no" and they are responsible.

hamas was duly warned and had time to remove the civilians from the govt and military areas if they so chose, they chose not to.

the IDF does not have "phasers" and only has rather primitive explosive devices that by nature are not controllable, any attack using such devices will kill indiscriminately....unfortunately that is all there is. A ground invasion within a urban area would wreck far more damage than the limited air strikes....

and a personal note:
this whole thing is pathetic: hamas simply wanted israel to attack and just kept launching rockets until the israeli govt had little choice....so what going to be gained? who knows, the outocome and political affects will be felt later, the dead and wounded however are paying a heavy price for Hamas political games.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

43. Well in that case, I suppose 195+ is something to be proud of!

[ProgressiveMuslim]

48. Contradicted: "...Israel sought to catch Hamas off guard by luring it into a false sense..."

Prior to the operation, Israel sought to catch Hamas off guard by luring it into a false sense of security through certain measures, including the opening of Gaza border crossings on Friday.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050359.html

[oberliner]

55. From the same article: "Most of the casualties were Hamas operatives."

From the AP:

Most of those killed were security men, but civilians were also among the dead.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081227/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_i...

Of course, any civilian death is tragic.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

66. FCOL Oberliner, of course that's what Haartez is going to say.

Do they have reporters on the scene?

Are the young girls with bandanges around their faces in the hospital Hamas operatives?
Are the teen boys?

Pelsar claims Hamas was warned and given time to evacuate. Haaretz states that is patently FALSE.

The intent was to maxmimize damage, not minimize it.

205 down. 1,499,795 to go.

[pelsar]

67. so PM you also dont have internet? read the news?

Pelsar claims Hamas was warned and given time to evacuate. Haaretz states that is patently FALSE

how many times did various officials in the israeli govt say that the attack is coming, is imminent etc?... i guess what your upset about is that the iDF didnt give hamas the list of targets and exact bombing schedule....and i never claimed that....Hamas was simply warned that the IDF would be attacking.....last week, that gave them a whole week or so to do whatever they chose to do....

and yes the idea was to maximize damage...it is hamas job to do what it can to protect its human shields if they so desire....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

69. more eyewitness accounts...

http://www.freegaza.org/index.php?module=latest_news&id...

"Israeli missles tore through a children's playground and busy market in Diere Balah, we saw the aftermath - many were injured and some reportedly killed. Every Hospital in the Gaza strip is already overwhelmed with injured people and does not have the medicine or the capacity to treat them. Israel is committing crimes against humanity, it is violating international and human rights law, ignoring the United Nations and planning even bigger attacks. The world must act now and intensify the calls for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions against Israel; governments need to move beyond words of condemnation into an active and immediate restraint of Israel and a lifting of the siege of Gaza"

- Ewa Jasiewicz (Polish and British) Free Gaza Movement

[wellst0nev0ter]

73. Eh, It Was Probably Located Next To A Government Building

Like a post office or something. Clearly their fault

[ProgressiveProfessor]

115. I treat such commentaries with suspicion

if for no other reason its very unlikely that the Israelis are using missile. There are also claims of carpet bombing. It appears that the Israeli Air Force is using laser guided bombs (low cost and more accurate than missiles) to take out a list of predetermined targets. While the situation is indeed horrific and terrifying, obviously inaccurate descriptions lowers credibility. The rest of the Free Gaza site does not help either.

[breakaleg]

49. If that was their plan, then wouldn't they have cleared out of their bases in

anticipation of the attack? Or was it also their plan to wait like sitting ducks for the bombs to drop on their heads?

[Vegasaurus]

51. Hamas was given ample warning

Olmert etc has been warning Hamas all week to quit the rockets.

Hamas refused.

They also didn't clear out the civilians.

Hamas is true evil, because they alone could have prevented this entire attack, if only they would stop their violent resistance.

[pelsar]

59. i dont know..some speculation....

perhaps they missed the news this last week when the israeli govt kept saying that they're going to attack?....perhaps hamas doesnt get haartez or the jerusalem post.....could have been they didnt see the massive amount of tanks along the border as well.....maybe their internet was down for the last week....


or maybe they believed that their PR and friends would protect them from an attack and didnt believe the israeli warnings...assuming they even got them...

[wellst0nev0ter]

72. I'd Be Careful About Condemning The Use Of "Human Shields" If I Were You

Pots, kettles and all that.

[pelsar]

79. why?......

human shields are never to be excused....what those soldiers did was wrong.....is something here confusing?

[wellst0nev0ter]

85. One Group Of Human Shields

Are civilians who were unlucky to be near what Israel says are legitimate government and military targets.

Another group were forcefully taken to protect enemy soldiers.

One must be really grasping at straws to think that the former forced the civilians to build those structures and then force them to stand around them so that the Israelis will look bad when they bomb them.

But, hey, whatever soothes your conscience.

[pelsar]

97. ask hamas....

why they built their offices in the cities....why the didnt clear out the civilians after israel told them that an attack by the IDF was now inevitable....perhaps they're looking for photo ops,

no conscience problem here......just pity for the Palestinians who have such pathetic leadership

[wellst0nev0ter]

99. So Governments Can't Build Offices In The Cities They Govern?

Terrorists that they are, they are still the ruling party, so pretty much any government building is a terror target in your broad definition.

Call me back when Hamas uses Israeli teenagers to cover them when they do raids.

[pelsar]

122. It their choice

they decide where to put their kassams, HQs etc

theres a basic concept which i see your having a hard time with:

its called consequences for ones actions.....if ones govt constantly shoots at people, eventually they may get a reaction....hamas simply got what they were goading for...unless of course you have a better reason why they were terrorizing and attempting to kill israelis for the last two years...what were they trying to achieve?

this should be good, but please do try to stick to the facts and actual timing of events (check with google...google is your friend)

[wellst0nev0ter]

124. So They CAN'T Build Government Buildings In The Places They Serve

Jeepers, you Israel-right-or-wrong crowd sure don't leave a lot of choices, do you? Anyways, it's always amusing how Israel locks up Gazans in a cage, and then act shocked when that population radicalizes and fights back. As much as you all want to deny it, there is nothing unique about Palestinian terrorism and the Israelis aren't special victims. Hell, the Israelis themselves resorted to terrorism when they faced forces superior to them (and don't give be that BS about the Israeli terror groups only targeting the military, because indeed as you say google IS a friend.)

I know, I know, killing a bunch of innocent people along with militants is "working" right? Easing up on the persecutions will expose Israel to all sorts of danger, right? Except that in 1999 and 2000 there were no suicide bombings because the PA during that time were actually allowed to do their jobs. And that was without the Great Wall of Israel. But, of course, we all know what happened then: talks failed, clashes resumed and by following year the terror attacks resumed. So let them keep doing what they're doing. If it doesn't solve anything, at least they feel good doing it.

[eyl]

125. They actually started doing their jobs

after Israel threatened to invade if they didn't.

And it's not like they were innocent bystanders previously. I personally witnessed PA collusion in trying to protect a Hamas (or IJ, I don't remember) terrorist from being arrested by Israel.

[wellst0nev0ter]

130. I Didn't Say It Was A Perfect Arrangement

Of course the Oslo and Wye agreements were jokes to begin with, and Israel was free to do basically what they please while the PA was placed under more restrictions. But at least it gave them that breathing room for them to operate against terrorists. Also, it would be unwise to believe that the PA were all that clean and pure to begin with. But again, that situation seems ideal compared to current events, for both sides.

[pelsar]

126. they can do what they want...

as we keep on seeing.....i believe it was hamas that decided (quotes should be easy enough to find) that they no longer want to continue with the "tahdia"....its just seems reasonable for them to understand the consequences of their actions...

i understand you dont think that they are capable of this?......

they dont get to choose which buildings get bombed....


i really dont care if there is or there isnt anything special about Hamas and their terrorism or their jihad friends...it makes no difference to me, eventually those who protect them, aid them, egg them on will one day figure out that its not a good system for the Palestinians.....at least i hope so.

remember i mentioned that google is your friend?....there were also no suicide bombers in 1990 or 1998....they were simply a new strategy used, since the older ones of the jihad dude entering a school and shooting the kids.....wasnt working out too well.


jeepers, you Israel-right-or-wrong crowd sure don't leave a lot of choices...actually i'm a "one standard" and there are "consequences for ones actions" kind of person

[wellst0nev0ter]

128. And I Guess That Standard Is No Government Buildings In Civilian Areas

Once again, any nonsense to soothe your conscience. And, sorry, you fail my friend. There was a suicide car bombing in 1998 and you know full well that suicide attacks weren't used by Palestinians until 1993 I suggest you learn to practice what you preach.

It is indisputable that it was the Israelis who broke the ceasefire, or the tahdia, or the hudna, or whatever the hell you want to call it for sake of feckless redefinitions in pursuit of muddying the waters. So in that sense, will the Israelis accept their responsibilities in starting up the conflict again, or do all responsibility fall on Hamas and the Palestinians collectively?

And finally, has bombing and shooting the Palestinians into submission ever worked? Has it led to any type of peace process? If not, then the Israelis and the supporters who support this madness are only exercising in a meaningless machinery of death, simply because it feels good to them.

[azurnoir]

89. Where did get this one?

hamas was duly warned and had time to remove the civilians from the govt and military areas if they so chose, they chose not to.

[pelsar]

92. where have you been the last week?

the israeli govt has been telling hamas that they'll be attacking soon....i'm assume i dont have to find all of those quotes....of course if you assuming that the IDF should have sent hamas a time schedule then i suspect that they didnt.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

118. Some counter points

The IAF is reported to be using laser guided bombs. There are notionally 250lb, 500lb, 1000lb and 2000lb variants. You pick the size depending on the effect needed, same with fuses. Its not clear if they are only using 2000lb bombs. For lots of targets, 500lb should be quite sufficient. Gaza does not have a lot of reinforced concrete structures.

If 500lb bombs are not useful, why is the US pushing so hard to get a new family of 250lb bombs and a new family of small guided missiles developed and deployed? One of the stated goals is to limit collateral damage while still destroying the target.

Recent articles have pointed out that the IDF was preparing for this for quite some time. Mostly generating target lists and related data. The actual timing seems to have been closely held. I for one would have not expected Israel to attack during their Sabbath in the middle of Hanukkah either. One article stated that at one point Hamas did evacuate its own people (but not local civilians) and later let them return, thinking the attack was days off. If nothing else it was a well executed maskarova.

[pelsar]

127. i will defer to your greater knowledge on bombs...

in the past when israel dropped 500lb bombs they werent strong enough to destroy the intended building....the attempt was to limit the damage that the 1000lb bombs did...totally destroyed the building and the environs.....

as you wrote there is a new generation of bombs obviously intended for limited collateral damage....

a note that you might be interested in: the PC of Lebanon II is no longer....mosques have been destroyed in gaza.....when they contain ammunitions, jihad university was bombed for being a manufacturing plant of kassams, etc.

As far as the preparation.....it was upto date and from what i know, the lessons of Lebanon II were learned, though we'll only know that if there is a ground assault.

[oberliner]

42. Were any non-military targets hit? Is there any word on civilian casualties?

It appears from these and the other articles that Israel hit only military targets and that the confirmed dead have thusfar been Hamas forces.

Hamas has said that all of its security compounds in Gaza were destroyed by the Israeli air strikes.

Any civilian casualties would be tragic, especially children, but it appears, at least from initial reports, that this attack was launched on security compounds and militant bases.

Have you heard of any civilian targets that were hit?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

44. Eyewitness reports on BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801291.stm

[oberliner]

47. That interview is very informative

The eyewitness says that she herself does not see any damage from where she is, but does see (and smell) a lot of smoke.

She expresses concern that the attack took place at a time when the school shift was changing (morning to afternoon), so she feared that children may have been in harm's away.

The BBC reporter asks her about military vs. civilian targets and she replies that most of the Hamas military compounds are in residential areas so that attacks on such compounds end up impacting everyone.

She also indicates that the attack itself was not a surprise since the Israelis had announced that it was coming in the Palestinian media (although it was a larger attack than she had expected).

Again, it appears that Israel has attacked only Hamas militant bases and security compounds. These bases and compounds are often located in residential neighborhoods, thus leading to potential for civilian casualties, even when the targets are military ones.

It does not appear that any non-military targets were hit. Have you any information to the contrary? Also, are there any numbers on civilian casualties yet?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

50. Oberliner, I've been watching TV since 5:45 this morning.

I've seen stacks of corses that include women in hijab.

Are you serious? Do you have any sense of how densely populated Gaza City is? It's nothing BUT residential.

For the love of God, I can't believe that even *you* are engaged in this nonsense.

[oberliner]

54. I am trying to collect information on what happened

I do not have access to the television programs that you are referencing. If you have links to sources in English online that provide such information, please share them.

I know that Gaza City is densely populated, and, as I said elsewhere in the thread, I would not be surprised if civilians, including women, were killed in these attacks.

If you have any specific information about civilian casualties, I would again ask you to share that information.

I'd also like to know if you have any information about non-military targets that were hit, if any.

Everything I have read says that the targets were military targets. If you have information that conflicts this, I would like to read it.

I would like to know as many of the facts about what happened here as possible. Again, I do appreciate the BBC link.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

45. AP Report

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) _ Israeli warplanes retaliating for rocket fire from the Gaza Strip pounded dozens of security compounds across the Hamas-ruled territory in unprecedented waves of airstrikes Saturday, killing at least 155 and wounding more than 310 in the single bloodiest day of fighting in recent memory.

The vast majority of those killed were security men, but civilians were also among the dead. Hamas said all of its security installations were hit and responded with several medium-range Grad rockets at Israel, reaching deeper than in the past. One Israeli was killed and at least four people were wounded in the rocket attacks. With so many wounded, the Palestinian death toll was likely to rise.

"The operation will last as long as necessary," declared Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak, though it was not clear if it would be coupled with a ground offensive. Asked if Hamas political leaders might be targeted next, military spokeswoman Maj. Avital Leibovich said, "Any Hamas target is a target."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/27/israel-launche...

[gilad]

57. To all of you people

I'm *from* isreal, and let me explain to you somthing.
i wont go into details on our conflict, and the sides viewpoints.
only regarding the latest conflict
the isreal government warned them that if they'll continue send missile's on us they will suffer the consequences.
they *did not stop*
while all the last week isreal did not attack them and "kept her calm" the hamass continued to send missile's on isreali cities

They didnt listen to our threat. they did not stop send missile's on our homes.
They brough this on themselves.

[bemildred]

58. "you people"? nt

[pelsar]

60. translation from hebrew....

direct translations dont always go over so well....

[bemildred]

61. Looks like English to me.

I was wondering who "you people" was. It seems unclear.

[pelsar]

63. sort of english....

this sentence is a direct word for word translation:

let me explain to you somthing....

anyway the "you people" is probably directed at PM, etc

[azurnoir]

90. Pelsar I know Russian immigrants

that word things the exact same way

[pelsar]

93. well then perhaps hes russian..

i dont speak russian so i wouldnt know

[greyl]

121. "you people" is us. You, me, and everyone else here reading the post. nt

[azurnoir]

71. Well you can explain this part

Why did Israel "allow" aid supplies into Gaza yesterdat even as bombs were being loaded on to planes? Was it making sure "they" died with full bellies?
Was it making sure "they" were out in the open when the bombs fell?
Was it a gesture of "goodwill" so they would understand when they died?
Was it a deception to make sure they suspected nothing?

[Vegasaurus]

74. "They" have been warned for a full week

too bad they continued their rocket campaign.

[pelsar]

80. you'll have to ask the IDF..

it could be...and im just speculating here, given that most of the gazans are alive, well, probably scared....have food to eat while they wait out the war

or it could be that the food has a secret radioactive element inside so that the IDF can identify those who are eating and kill them...but i'm just speculating

[azurnoir]

91. Speculation or just plain silly?

or it could be that the food has a secret radioactive element inside so that the IDF can identify those who are eating and kill them...but i'm just speculating

[wellst0nev0ter]

76. What Are You Talking About?

Israel kept up their attacks (retaliation?) all throughout the week. They didn't stop.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/25/world/middleeast/25mi...

[gilad]

82. learn to read

there are 3 mentions of dead hamass terrorist's in the article
1. strike of isreal air force on missile's lunchers
2. one that was killed while trying to set explosive
3. two that was killed from theire own bombs

well ofcourse those things are "isreali attacks"
if isreal wouldnt "force" the terrorist to make bombs they won't die from "accidents"
and why kill the people who shoot bombs or making explosives to kill us, let them be.

[wellst0nev0ter]

84. Um, Yeah . . .

From your own post:

they *did not stop*
while all the last week isreal did not attack them and "kept her calm" the hamass continued to send missile's on isreali cities

You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.

[gilad]

87. ok, you got me

all this past week we stroke once and killed one hamass terrorist
im sorry. thank you for the correction.

[wellst0nev0ter]

100. There was also a clash that killed 3 militants

[TomClash]

65. Hmmm.

[JCMach1]

102. 206 Dead- 400 injured - Latest update...

http://gulfnews.com/region/Middle_East/10270431.html

[bemildred]

107. At least 228 die as Israel hammers Hamas-run Gaza

GAZA CITY (AFP) — Israel hammered Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip on Saturday, killing at least 228 people in retaliation for rocket fire, in one of the bloodiest days of the decades-long Middle East conflict.

Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak said "Operation Cast Lead" against the Islamist movement, which has also left some 700 wounded, will continue "as long as necessary.

"The battle will be long and difficult, but the time has come to act and to fight," he said.

Exiled Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal called in Damascus for a new Palestinian intifada, or uprising, against Israel and promised new suicide attacks.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gXK_...

[bemildred]

108. Fresh Israeli airstrikes on Gaza Strip kill three

GAZA, Dec. 27 (Xinhua) -- Three more Palestinian militants were killed on Saturday night in two separate airstrikes on eastern Gaza City and the northern Gaza Strip town of Beit Lahia, said local medics and Hamas security sources.

Mo'aweya Hassanein, chief of emergency and ambulance services in the Palestinian Health Ministry said that three Palestinians were killed and four wounded on Saturday night by Israeli air-to-ground missiles.

He added that the three were the latest death toll in the Gaza Strip following dozens of unprecedented intensive Israeli airstrikes on Hamas police installations on Saturday that have killed a total of some 210 people and injured some 750 others.

A Hamas security spokesman also said that Israeli warplanes launched missiles at a group of Palestinian fighters east of Gaza City, killing two of them, while another airstrike on Beit Lahia town in northern Gaza Strip killed one.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-12/28/content_10...

[excess_3]

111. has P.E.B.O. said anything? n/t

[Alamuti Lotus]

129. "now watch this drive"?

hasn't really interupted the Hawi'ian vacation to make any real statement as yet..