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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:26 AM
Original message
Hebron, Feiglin, and the self-hating Jews of the right
You know them. These people who blatantly, instinctively, inveterately trash Israel. These people who miss no opportunity to brand IDF soldiers as Nazis. Who accuse the Shin Bet of human rights violations and defense officials of collective punishment. People who will tell everyone, anyone who will listen - Western journalists in particular - that the government of Israel is committing war crimes.

Ladies and Gentlemen, meet the new self-hating Jew, the New Right, for whom the Torah will come forth from Judea, and the word of God, from Hebron.

In their view, the sins we have sinned against them are beyond counting, beyond pardon. Withdrawal from Sinai, withdrawing from Jericho and Gaza, allowing the return of Arafat, arming the Palestinian Authority, withdrawing from Hebron, withdrawing from Jenin and Nablus and south Lebanon, withdrawing from Amona and Federman's Farm, disengagement, the Clinton Plan, the Bush Vision, the Obama specter.

The Likud campaign of Moshe Feiglin, with its more careful rhetoric, but its background strains of transfer and Islam-is-inferior, and retake-the-Temple Mount, suggests the desperation in the bravado of the extreme right. It suggests that the far-right phiolosophy is so isolated that, like a virus, it can only truly grow and reproduce by infecting and thus commandeering a vastly larger host.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1044645.html
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. Very interesting article. I hope that the tide has indeed turned against these extremists.
Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 03:58 AM by LeftishBrit
I wish it had done so long ago.

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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:14 AM
Response to Original message
2. But Bradley Burston has zero credibility.
He's constantly inventing things, flourishes of his useless polished pen. His mind is a sewer and his mouth is an open sepulcher. Just look at his anti-Semitic diatribe in this article against "oversize kippot" and "overlong tzitit." Where does he get this crap from? What will he rail against next, big noses? Who is Burston to say that he has a right to trash Jews for observing simple rituals like these on his theory that they are "oversized" or "overlong" when the dimensions of these rituals are merely determined by Jewish tradition? Burston's filth is in league with those who fraudulently say that they aren't against Jews, heh, heh, just the "utra" Jews, mind you. I can get away with any smear I want just by calling someone "ultra." Hey. I'm not against dentists. Just ULTRA dentists. See? Now being a dentist is some sort of stigma. "Ultra" is the alibi. Hey. I'm not against all Jews, just the "ultra" Jews, heh heh. This is the fig leaf Burston hides behind. In fact, you can go into any Judaica store in the world and you will not find "overlong" tzitzit. They are a specific length as required and that's all. Burston is literally making this up off the top of his head. It suddenly occurred to him that claiming that some tzitzit are longer, which is nonsense, would sound awfully nice for the purple prose award.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Wow
Are you serious or is this a piece of sarcasm?

IMO, Bradley Burston is one of the most sensible people around on Israeli-Palestinian issues - which of course does mean he sometimes pisses off both sides.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Well, I think calling him one of the most sensible is overdoing it a bit...
Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 06:34 AM by Violet_Crumble
I think he's one of those writers who has his moments of writing really good stuff. I think he's one of those people with something about them that some people on both sides love to hate, which probably provides him with a fair bit of entertainment...

On edit: I hope the post you were replying to was sarcasm, coz otherwise that's some crap thinking at play...
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Sorry, Bradley invents things.
There's no place for that in progressive scholarship. And what he said about tzitzit is totally concocted. We don't need that cluttering up progressive writing. It's like something out of Der Sturmer. It's anti-Semitic.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I don't know wtf a tzitzit is, nor do I care. But when it comes to credibility...
While I disagree with him sometimes, Bradley Burston hits the nail on the head when it comes to these extremists and their actions. They're disgusting and in reality are enemies of the state of Israel. Religious extremists of all sorts are eerily similar. Their hatred of anyone not like them is intense and they want to force their screwed up religious crap onto people who don't want it....
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
25. Hey, "his mouth is an open sepulcher".
What more does one need to know?
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
6. thank god.....
for those kids.....their pogrom against the arabs and the subsequent revulsion by the israeli public is the start.....it may take sometime, but if they keep it up, turn on the IDF, stone them, that will be the final straw for them (in the history of israel, two things cause major change: hit the general populace within the green line, "hit" the reserve soldiers)
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I guess that's a *every cloud has a silver lining* way of looking at it n/t
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. There was no pogrom. The judge in the case said the Jews shot in self defense after viewing the vid
and the video was supplied by B'Tzelem, not a right wing group but one of the most progressive in Israel.

Those who don't know what the Jewish tradition of tzitzit is have no right to sit there saying they don't care if Bradley makes stuff up about about it. If you trash Jewish tradition as Bradley is doing, you are trashing Judaism and Jews.

And Bradley delivered himself of such pearls as:

"Perhaps we killed Christ after all"

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/996594.html

Bradley likes to say ridiculous things to get attention. He doesn't do the left any good.



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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
10.  Of course it was a pogrom. They are vile, disgusting racists
the settlers in Hebron. Oh, and you better inform Olmert that it wasn't a pogrom, because that's precisely what he called it.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. WTF?? There definately was a pogrom!
Just check out the most recent threads here. Olmert has called it a pogrom and what was done to the Palestinians in Hebron had NO justification. It's disgusting that anyone would try to argue otherwise on a progressive forum like DU...

If the tradition's religious, then fuck it. I don't give a toss about it and it might have something to do with the fact I'm an atheist. This is a political forum, not a religious one. And the religious extremist settlers are hatefilled terrorists, and closely related to their extremist Islamic cousins. You think saying that's antisemitic? Gimme a break...



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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. that jewish tradition....
Those who don't know what the Jewish tradition of tzitzit.....

and yes i know lots and lots about jewish tradition.....and as far as i know starting a riot, stoning people, burning down their homes, teaching ones children to throw stones is not the Judaism that i grew up with or live by....it may be as the settlers and friends of Hebron see it, but they are the minority and eventually their extremist version will be rendered impotent because of their own very actions.
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. And so, Pelsar, do you tell Palestinians not to throw stones?
Because that's what was in the B'Tselem video according to the judge.

As for Olmert, he is a PATHOLOGICAL liar and he is on his way to prison.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. just for some info breadandwine...
Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 08:11 AM by pelsar
i've got over 20+ years in the reserves as combat soldier.....and in case you have trouble with dates, that puts me through both intifadas....which means i've been stoned before and I didnt have to shoot any "throwers" (though i did once tear gas the military police...but thats just a fun fact....)

so yes it does give me a standing of sort for understanding whats going on
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. In that case, Pelsar, will you, by your own internal logic, say that the Palestinians are committing
Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 08:14 AM by breadandwine
pogroms against Jews? How many pogroms?

Meanwhile, Kadima official Avi Dichter, who the last I checked is no right winger and works under the "hallowed" Olmert, castigated Olmert for calling Jewish behavior in this a pogrom and said there is no comparison. And oh yes, there have been thousands of missiles launched from Gaza. Will you call THAT a pogrom? If you have I offended. Can you imagine if thousands of missiles had been launched at the US from Mexico? Mexico would be no more.

It is also true that Israeli media is nothing like American media and I do not mean that as a compliment. I've fought against FOX and in the US the scurrilous FOX news is better than the best of some of the Israeli media. What is printed in the Israeli media comes from any press release anybody wants to issue. The fact that Bradley Burston is making things up about Judaism just MIGHT be an example of non-existent standards in Israeli media, because there are things Burston has said that in the US would have gotten him canned from the best of progressive American papers and blogs.

Again, what was actually presented in a court -- video -- by the leftist B'Tzelem, in order to prove the opposite point, was found by the judge to show that the Palestinians had indeed endangered the Jews who shot at them in self-defense.

If you believe in the rule of law, what the judge said has some significance.

By the way, Pelsar, what city are you in nowadays? How are things in Tel Aviv?


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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. the jihadnikim are quite busy with kassams, bombs etc...
Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 08:24 AM by pelsar
trying to kill israelis...

but that has nothing to do what the hebronites and friends did...nothing at all.....and i do very much believe in the rule of law..and that day was full of lawbreakers. And from what i saw of the video, i would disagree with the judge, but thats not the real issue...the pogrom is....

and please dont throw the kassams at me as if i dont know what they are, where they are landing etc.. (you might have an argument if the pogrom would stop the kassams...but since they wont, there is no connection)
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Pelsar, you know yr wasting yr breath on that person, right?
They're one of those True Believers you've sometimes mentioned in the past. Nothing's going to bend them, not facts, not logic......
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. yea i know....i just enjoy their smugness
that "they know"......its also a nice change of pace...that i get to "discuss with one of them"....

(i admit i get an ego trip when they try to tell me whats really going on out there.....)
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. The dumb smugness is kinda entertaining...
Gotta admit I have enjoyed their silly comments about the non-existant standards in the Israeli media and the way they fling around 'leftist Ha'aretz' like some smear. The only other people I've seen focus so much on telling left-wingers what progressives should and shouldn't do is RWers...

Anyway, I'll leave you to it. I'm off to bed now. Have fun :)
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. Wow, Pelsar, you just conditionally endorsed pogroms.
You just said,

"you might have an argument if the pogrom would stop the kassams"

Firstly, of course that wasn't my argument. Secondly, it wasn't a pogrom, you don't know what a pogrom is. Thirdly, whether you do or not, if you say what you just said, then by your own definition, pogroms, as you call them, are justified if they would stop the kassams. Stop and hear how you sound. Why should anybody take you seriously when you say, firstly, it was a pogrom, but THEN you say pogroms are sometimes good.

You're making a fool of yourself.

This is the difficulty you have here. You're tying yourself up in knots. You're saying pogroms might sometimes be justified. I would never say that. It seems that you are the one having a bit of ethical difficulty there.




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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. those definitions....
"i dont know what a pogrom is"....not to difficult to define...we can call it a riot then?...that also seems to fit nicely. I hardly see the contradiction, i believe it was you who somehow connected the riot/pogrom to the kassams...so i merely commented on your connection. And in fact if an action by israelis (sanctioned by the govt) or the IDF can stop the kassams, then i believe it should be looked in to....and used or discarded based on its merits.

you ask:
Why should anybody take you seriously... some who are interested in one who has actually been in the westbank and gaza and lebanon, take me seriously, others who dont want facts to confuse them tend not to.....

i assume your one of the latter..

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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #17
29. Pelsar, let me explain to you about jihadnikim. They're all about family.
They say to their sons, "What do YOU want to be when you blow up?"
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #13
28. Don't get me wrong. Olmert is a military hero.
Did you hear?

Olmert burned his mouth on the tailpipe of an enemy tank.

"I don't get it!" he exclaimed. "They TOLD me to blow it UP!"
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. Yes, it was a pogrom
And these RW settlers don't represent any Jewish tradition.

They are just violent thugs.
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. LeftishBrit, as you wish, but in Israel, outside of a few people in Haifa
nobody takes Haaretz seriously. They don't represent anyBODY.

Just read the comments posted at the bottom of a lot of their articles. Most Israelis hate Haaretz.

I can show you a lot of thugs on all sides in Israel. Don't be so smug.

And throwing people out of their homes in any other country is called thugery and ethnic cleansing. In Hebron Jews bought the property and they can prove it. Ehud Barack, who is not doing well in national polls, threw Jews out of their homes in Hebron to win votes in the Labor primary held the same day.

You want to know about pogroms? Look at what happened after the Israeli government threw Jews out of Gaza, where Jews have lived for thousands of years, and where they were living in areas with no Arabs where the Arabs had called the land a "cursed" place because nothing would grow. And as soon as Jews left, Palestinians came in and burned down every synagogue. They didn't even keep those properties to use for Palestinian social needs, which would have made some sense. They burned it all down while marching around the properties with shoulder-fired missiles on their shoulders.

THAT'S a pogrom.

Thousands of missiles from Gaza.

THAT'S a pogrom.

Missiles bombarding northern Israeli civilian areas from Lebanon.

THAT'S a pogrom.

And the massacre in Mumbai. The terrorists there complained that the Indians make more money than the Pakistanis.

So they had to kill the Jews.

That's scapegoating and

THAT'S a pogrom.









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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:45 AM
Original message
just a correction.....
cause it has to be corrected...

They didn't even keep those properties to use for Palestinian social needs, which would have made some sense.

actually neve dekalim buildings and others are being used as an islamic university (they just burned down the synagogues and later raided the greenhouses), the other buildings taken over by hamas and fatah were put to use....

anyway keep to the proper definition of pogrom...the thousands of kassams are not a pogrom, they murderous, they kill and maim and they terrorize, but the are not a pogrom.
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
24. Pelsar, I didn't say they burned down every building. I said they burned down synagogues.
Again, back to that pesky little definition of a pogrom.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. tsk tsk tsk...now your playing with your text...
you mentioned that they arent even using the buildings from the settlements...i just mentioned that fact that they are, which pretty much says that you know very little infact of what is going on...but i suspect facts wont get in the way of your beliefs....

u asked earlier if i live in Tel Aviv, i assume your inferring that i'm one of those nice leftys.....well i dont live in TA, but yes i am one of those nice educated lefties that live and work in israel, pay taxes, go to the reserves, risk my life for the govts actions, vote, raise kids who understand the concept of doing rather than just talking, etc.....i dont suppose you actually do anything that comes close to that.....
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Heh, we've got a supporter of the extremist settlers in our midst....
Did you miss the turn on the way to LGF? DU is a site for left-wingers, not supporters of extremists of any ilk...
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. As you wish. I don't think you're going to be much more amenable to debate ...
than the 'Counterpunchies' on the other side.

And I don't think you have much right to call other people 'smug' just after you've been trying to teach Pelsar, a long-term IDF member, about the dangers of kassams.

And I know what pogroms are. My family lost close relatives in pogroms in Eastern Europe.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
32. If I remember
when the Church announced that Jew were exonerated for the killing Jesus there was a demonstration in which Jews carried signs saying "We did so kill him" and given the long bloody history of the Church where Jews are concerned this leftist does not blame the demonstrators one bit.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
30. Question
completely OT but you would the one to ask as I do not Eyl anywhere, what district is the House of whatever your POV in hebron in H1, H2 or what?

BTW thanks for you input posted went to bed then had emergency this morning just now got to this
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. H2...
which is under israel military control....i believe its call the house of piece (everyone wants a piece of it)
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Thanks
House of Piece I like that
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