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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 10:50 AM
Original message
Israel a 'miracle,' Obama says
Source: Toronto Globe and Mail

JERUSALEM U.S. Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama pledged staunch support for Israel on Wednesday in Jerusalem, describing the Jewish state as a miracle and holding only a low-profile meeting with Palestinian leaders.

Mr. Obama, who is seeking to allay wariness among some U.S. Jewish voters about his attitude toward Israel, said in comments to reporters that he hopes to help bring peace in the Middle East.

"I'm here on this trip to reaffirm the special relationship between Israel and the United States, my abiding commitment to its security, and my hope that I can serve as an effective partner, whether as a ... senator or as a president, in bringing about a more lasting peace in the region," he said.

The Illinois senator, meeting Israeli President Shimon Peres, described Israel as a "miracle that has blossomed" since its founding 60 years ago. Wearing a yarmulke, he later laid a white wreath at the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial museum.



Read more: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.2008...



I calmly await reassurance that this doesn't mean more of the same when it comes to pandering to the pro-Israel lobby and constituency in the US.

- B
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. Given countries created in the last 60 years - I agree with Obama
If I had to move to one - I would probably choose Israel or Jordan...
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hisownpetard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Me. too.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. They are words that in the present political climate...
Must be said. Judge him by his actions in office, but don't expect complete abandonment of Israel, across the board. I don't see the man as unwise. I do see him leveraging his office and US aid to make Israel get serious about peace and the settler situation.
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. I'm quite nervous about where O seems headed
Tandalayo wrote: "I do see him leveraging his office and US aid to make Israel get serious about peace and the settler situation."

What evidence is there of that? Are we now supposed to be judging Obama not on the basis of what he says he will do as President, but according to what we think he will do as President that he isn't talking about right now?

To be clear, I support Oboma, but I'm getting very nervous about what will be left of his promise of change by the time he makes it to the White House.

- B
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. If he were to start sounding...
Like a member of Aryan Nation, he would rightly be relegated to the Political Bad Boy Bench, and give McCatheterBag a death-dealing weapon. Like I said, Obama does not strike me as unwise. He has learned his lessons well.

What do you think he should say, reminding you as I ask that question that anything more, said while visiting Israel, would give AIPAC and McDepends an advantage they can ride all the way to Jan 20, 2009?
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Baclava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. It's political posturing on the world stage.
Coming off sounding like a slobbering Jew-hater, in Israel, is not the best plan for becoming President.

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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. My point exactly.
And as much as we might not much like political posturing around here, it is all part of the process. Sadly, the legions of low-information and cognitively-challenged voters(not to mention those in the MSM with the same afflictions) demand posturing, or as I like to call it, belaboring the obvious.

Perhaps, someday, Israel will stop demanding that the world support it in every conceivable manner and learn how to make a peace with its neighbors. But sadly, that time is not now.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #29
40. "learn how to make a peace with its neighbors"
You mean by converting to Islam?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #29
43. What responsibility due their neighbors bear in making peace?
do you think they really want peace?
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #26
56. Not endorsing everything the government of Israel does
does not make someone a "slobbering Jew-hater" and more than not approving of everything the U.S. government does makes someone anti-American.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
39. I believe that the Israel situation is the holy grail of American
politics. If he can get the thing worked out, he will. not only because we are all religiously indebted to the region but also because its time that there was peace in the Holy Land. Barack is going to be the one who solves it because I think the world is ready for it.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #39
59. We are religiously indebted to the region?
How's that work? Frankly, I don't feel a religious debt to any region.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #39
60. What the fuck are you talking about? "we are all religiously indebted to the region"?
1) Don't include us rationalists with those of you supporting Israel based on made-up mythology

2) It is ILLEGAL to base any legislation or aid to Israel on anything religious. Remember the separation of church and state? 1st Amendment ring a bell?

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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
4. something has to change in the US approach to I/P
and i'm now reduced to hoping BHO is being strategic & political in these toe-the-line statements (both these & to US jewish groups) & is revealing his real policy intentions to no one.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I wouldn't project anything onto it.
This wouldn't be the time or place to announce policy on this most difficult of issues.
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Seeking Serenity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. That's very sad, when you think about it.
"i'm now reduced to hoping BHO is being strategic & political in these toe-the-line statements (both these & to US jewish groups) & is revealing his real policy intentions to no one"

Aren't you essentially saying that you are hoping that (or at least are OK with the idea that) Obama is lying (at at least not telling the full truth) to the voters about his true plans just as a means to get elected?

I don't like the sound of that at all. That sounds like something the other side does.
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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. that's exactly what i'm saying
and its something POLITICIANS do. believe me, i live in Seattle, where republicans are openly mocked & have no power at all. our democratic politicians still lie every day.

any hint of a more even-handed approach to I/P will be met with a scorched-earth policy from AIPAC, etc. towards BHO's candidacy. yet that approach is exactly what's needed from the US for the situation to move towards peace & reconciliation.

I/P is too hot to allow it to interfere with this election, and BHO's people are smart enough to leave this one be - hence the 99.99% deference to israel. the arab world is disappointed & cynical, but they don't get to vote in america.
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Seeking Serenity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. I know politicians lie (it happens every time they open their mouths)
But it's not what I want from my candidate. Don't tell me a bunch of lies that I want to hear. Tell me the truth that I need to hear and then sell it, really sell it.

If BO is going to take a drastically different course viz the I/P situation, just tell us.
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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. i wish he would say the following:
the west bank settlers have got to go. ASAP. israel can build their wall 8 miles high, as long as its on the 1967 borders. jerusalem needs to be unified, and outside of BOTH israel & palestine territory, a firearm-free world heritage site governed by the UN, and patrolled by, say, buddhist troops with no stake in any of the 3 monotheisms.

but that's political suicide. so i hope he's bullshitting.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. This is your idea of "even-handedness"?
The Israelis make significant concessions and the Palestinians nothing?

Real even handed dude.



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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. something like this, dude?
1. cut the fucking terrorism out
2. give up the "right of return"
3. recognize israel's right to exist

i'd thought those were self-evident & already part of the US position for years now.

now you tell me what the solution is, dude.

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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I can only respond to what you wrote
Very little if anything surrounding the IP conflict is "self-evident". eg the Palestinians don't necessarily have to give up their right of return, it is a point that needs to be negotiated, limited right of return is a real possibility.





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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
66. I would actually quite like a solution that combines your posts (14) and (20)!
That being said, while America can push for and support negotiations, and help to support the implementation of the agreed solutions, it cannot prescribe the *details* of such agreed solutions. That has to be up to the negotiating parties themslves; or it won't work.
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. Don't bother arguing. Nothing but doing everything the arab nations want is acceptible n/t
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
34. An absolutely reasonable solution. Land theft by the Israeli government cannot continue unabated.
NT!

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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. The US approach to the IP conflict is "even handed". nt
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aspergris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
45. cmon be pragmatic
both sides do it. it's called politics. the only politicians who don't engage in it are people like kucinich or ron paul, who ... with NO chance to win... can afford to be honest and forthcoming.

If you are expecting complete candor from any REAL political candidate, you are living in a dream world.

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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
5. You know, this is probably the only time I will do this...
But Barack, come on buddy , I have to give you a :puke: on this one....



Okay, back to 100% support :hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
10. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
12. GMAFB! Stop sucking up to warmongering Israel!
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
30. It's not exactly like the other side is a bunch of prancing hippies.
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fla nocount Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. No, you're right, they're an indigenous, agrarian people who,
belong on the land they occupy. They are it and it is them, they need no fanciful tale from the Brothers Grimm to make it so, it has been so for millennium.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. Just out of curiosity, what is your ancestry?
Edited on Wed Jul-23-08 05:22 PM by Zynx
European? Asian? African? I'm just curious. I have a follow up.
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fla nocount Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. Native American and Celt. I am the Proto-Palestinian.
Edited on Wed Jul-23-08 07:18 PM by fla nocount
That takes care of the ancestry. Philosophically, I'm a Citizen of the Universe, fellow astronaut and prisoner on this tiny blue marble speeding through space. I'm here for the duration with no escape, no chance of parole. I live here with, among others, three groups of believers of Hebraic descent who believe that some dude named Abraham exacted certain promises from a bigger more talented dead male dude called "God".

Said "God" in the NA culture would have been equated with Coyote or Trickster for his sick-sister twisted sense of humor. "No Abe, don't kill that boy, I was just wondering how far I could push ya". More the act of the Trickster than the Great Spirit in my view.

Now fellow universal citizen and blue marble prisoner, having received the requisite entering information, I believe you have something you referred to as a follow up. Don't bother with the historic displacement argument, Clovis People vs. the Anasazi, Anglos vs. the Welsh for I won't respond
to Hansel and Gretel arguments. Things didn't work out for them as I remember.

May the blessings of Brendan be upon you and yours from the tearing away of your first breath until the uniting of your last.
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Those people "of Hebraic descent" are also indigenous to the Fertile Crescent
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fla nocount Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. That's what makes it so incongruous.
You'd think those Islamic, Christian and Hebrew folk, all indigenous, would find something to agree upon, ancestry for instance, common fairy tales for another. Why all the belligerence and bullying over concepts like covenants and dead male as God promises. Are all as dead spiritually that that they don't see their brother in the mirror as they brush their teeth.

All three groups are "People of the Book" as the Mohammad dude stated. What's the problem, the desert sun?
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Well, you'll notice Israel respects the rights of its neighbors to exist
Unfortunately, Hamas explicitly denies Israel the right to exist as a nation, and many of the surrounding countries refuse to recognize Israel as a country. So, there's that. If you want to exist, and someone wants you not to exist, what is an acceptable compromise?

Tucker
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. Wow, you assume no one with knowledge and research would disagree with you?
What was Germany doing in the desert? Sending Adolf Eichmann to stir up sentiment against the Jews, make buddies with the Grand Mufti, and sow the seeds of the Ba'ath party, among other things (oil).

It is awfully bold of you to call me a troll without backing up any of your points.

Tucker
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fla nocount Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. Mods, please delete as sub-thread, this is ludicrous. n/t
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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. "They are it, it is them"...Blood and Soil.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #30
51. Expect a stern, rebuking email from the BPHADL*

*BPHADL = Bunch of Prancing Hippies Anti-Defamation League
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fla nocount Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. She's cute, FlaGranny ,take note. n/t
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
68. God no kidding!
:puke:

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Baclava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
13. He's looking very Presidential
What? You expected him to declare he's siding with Hamas? Get real.

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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Gasp !
x
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ckramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. Poor Obama - he would now say anything to get elected!
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. Poor you..if you're not
helping Obama get elected then you're in the way.
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RethugAssKicker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
18. Barf !...Barf!!..He's kissing their ass WAY too much...n/t
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Maybe he just likes Israel heh. God forbid ;) n/t
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
19. Nothing to do with miracles whatsoever.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
22. Another day, another disappointment
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Even if he didn't believe it, do you think any candidate would sat "I hate Israel"?
Get a life.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #31
54. I have a life, thank you
I do not like liars. I don't care what they are trying to achieve. You lie to me, you lose my trust.

I do not vote for anyone that has lost my trust.
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WhiteTara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
28. me too. I don't know the hold
the Israeli government has over us, but it is a very big stick
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wvbygod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
32. Obama did well. If you are looking for someone to slag Israel
for defending itself against those that target and kill their innocents, you won't find them
running for President of the United States. We and Israel will remain together longer than
those trying to destroy us.
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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #32
47. Israel is NO innocent in this. Israel has plenty of blood on its hands.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. As do the Palestinians, and even more so, the
Arabs in the surrounding countries.

There's no wholly innocent party here.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #47
65. Are there any innocent parties in this?
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
57. It would be nice if someone running for President
would tell Israel and the Arab states that we are tired of their never ending game of "I got you last" and that no more U.S. resources will go towards funding it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
fla nocount Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #32
63. Us? n/t
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #32
64. Damn truth to that
Anyone who wants to criticize Obama for standing up for Israel can vote for McCain.

Kinda like shooting yourselves in the foot there.
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Sezu Donating Member (920 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. Or Cynthia. n/t
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
33. What are Obama's views on the illegal settlements?
I don't think I've heard him comment on those.

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no limit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
35. You do realize this is nothing new on his part, right?
He's been this pro Israel for a very long time. Just like every other politician in washington.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
38. America you have a challenge ...
only 2 conartists remain from which to elect another less than useless president.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. What exactly do you want?
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