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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 04:03 PM
Original message
Arab media cartoons depict Jewish control of US pres candidates
(title edited for length)
Arab media cartoons depict 'Jewish control' of US presidential candidates.

Ynetnews Published: 07.23.08, 15:04 / Israel Jewish Scene

Editorial cartoonists in the Arab world are using direct or borderline anti-Semitism in their portrayal of the presumptive US presidential candidates as lackeys of the Jews and Israel, according to a report from the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) issued Wednesday.

"The American elections have provided an excuse for the Arab media to promulgate perverse, bigoted and age-old conspiracy theories that portray Israelis and Jews as controlling the candidates," the ADL said.

To view cartoons click here http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/as_cartoons_candidat...

The US Presidential Candidates: Cartoons in the Arab Media cites numerous examples appearing in newspapers across the Middle East. The ADL said the cartoons "ignore the issues of the campaign and instead engage in hate-filled characterizations of Jews and overt racist stereotypes".

ADL National Director Abraham H. Foxman said, From Gaza to Ramallah, from Bahrain to Damascus, from Cairo to Riyadh, the press has unleashed a fusillade of virulent anti-Jewish images accusing Senators Barack Obama and John McCain as handmaidens of the Jews or the Israel lobby.

"Once again, the Arab media does not miss an opportunity to promote classic anti-Semitic conspiracy theories of Jewish control over Washington, the media and the democratic process," he said.

more
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3572013,00.ht...
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Truth from afar
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Truth?
You believe in anti-semitic, Protocols of Zion, Jews running the world and controlling political events, the media, etc?
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. and bigotry at home apparantly. np
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. Anti-Semitic Arabs
This writer needs to have his nose rubbed in the etymological dictionary. :dunce:

Anti-Semitism is different from anti-Zionism, except to people who want to play the victim.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Nice.
Anti-Semitism is different from anti-Zionism,

Yet it is often a very fine line. Committed anti-Zionists tend to traffic heavily in anti-semitic propaganda anyway... whether they recognize it as such or not. It appears that by your standards the ideas espoused in the Protocols would be merely labeled "anti-Zionist."

except to people who want to play the victim.

Ah, I get it. So now pointing out bigotry and anti-semitism when it occurs means that one is playing a victim. Congratulations, that's truly disgusting.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. You get bonked with the etymological dictionary too
The correct meaning of the English phrase "anti-semitism" is to be against Semites. I have not seen where Jews bought up the all the rights to the word. Arabic is also a Semitic language and Arabs are Semitic people, so your ignorance is showing.

When many Jews lived in Eastern Europe and they were the only Semitic people thereabouts, then Anti-Semitism meant anti-Jew. Since they migrated to the Middle East, in the middle of many other Semitic people, they can't use that whine any more (although they do try).
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. What is the correct meaning of the English word "bonked"?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. Err, yes, I don't think I've ever heard of a dictionary bonking someone before!
One for the tabloids!
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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. Does getting 'bonked'
mean what I think it means?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Yes. It does!!!
Edited on Thu Jul-24-08 04:43 PM by LeftishBrit
E.g. the current Mayor of London and ex-MP Boris Johnson has been dubbed 'Bonking Boris' for his, er, somewhat colourful personal life.
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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-08 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #35
56. Thank you. Does getting
shagged mean the same thing? (while we are on the subject.)
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. Yes it does!
Always happy to enlighten you on the wonders of the English language!
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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. Well,
bloody hell and bugger me!

Thank you.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. OK, you need a lesson. Both in etymology and in manners. You have no concept of either.
First of all, your definition of "antisemitism" is incorrect. The term has only ever been used to refer to discrimination and hatred of Jews, not of any other semitic language speaking people. Your assumption is based on reading of the compound word in a literal sense, if semitic refers to all people who speak semitic languages then to be anti-semitic is to be against all of those people. This assumption is flawed on several levels though, the first being the belief that one can determine the meaning of a modern word based on its structure and the definition of its arcane root alone. If this were true then the term "Aryan Supremacy" would refer to the belief that the Indo-Iranian people are superior to others. Clearly that is not the case either.

Your definition requires that a people known as "Semites" exist. They don't. Semitic refers to a group of languages of Middle Eastern origin, it does not refer to any specific group of people. People who speak Semitic languages are of a vast range of ethnicities and races spanning several continents. The term "semitic" has no meaning in reference to ethnicity, only language. As Yehuda Bauer said, "Antisemitism, especially in its hyphenated spelling, is inane nonsense, because there is no Semitism that you can be anti to." So we can't derive the meaning of antisemitism from the historical meanings of it's parts. That's OK though because the word has its own specific history that its meaning is derived from.

The word itself was coined in late 19th century Germany, where it came into wide usage to specifically refer to Jews. The Nazis were fond of the term and could be considered experts in its application. They were clear in its meaning as referring to Jews alone and did not mean it to include their Arab allies. (Some of whom held high posts in their organization.) So if the term did not apply to Arabs living in Germany or working with the Germans in North Africa then why should it suddenly refer to them when they are among Jews?

The word's meaning lies in the relationship of Jewish people to Christians; as ethnic nationalism grew in the 19th century it was used to identify Jews as being ethnically/racially different from Christians (Aryans) as opposed to merely making a faith-based distinction. Again, antisemitism was never used to refer to anyone else but Jews.

When many Jews lived in Eastern Europe and they were the only Semitic people thereabouts, then Anti-Semitism meant anti-Jew. Since they migrated to the Middle East, in the middle of many other Semitic people, they can't use that whine any more (although they do try).

The problem with this statement is that it implies that Jews were not numerous in the Middle East prior to this century. On the contrary, a large percentage of world Jewry comes from the Arab world. The Mizrahim (or "Arab Jews" as they were once known) did not migrate there, they've lived there for thousands of years. Yet no one debates the applicability of the term towards discrimination against them.

Eastern European anti-semitic propaganda has also infiltrated the Arab world and now serves as the basis for anti-Jewish beliefs across the Middle East. This propaganda, labeled as anti-semitic by its creators and now re-purposed for use by Arabs and other semitic language speakers is still used in its original manner, against its original targets, despite its change of location.

Lastly, the word is STILL used by scholars exclusively to describe discrimination against Jews alone. No dictionary, encyclopedia, professor or university agrees with your definition. So why would you insist on it, especially in response to my post, which wasn't about etymology at all, but about antisemitism's effects? Well, you seem to be making the pathetic argument that since the definition of "antisemitism" should be interpreted more broadly, based on the meaning of its root word, that its effects don't really exist. Even if your etymological argument wasn't retarded it would in no way diminish the scope or effects of anti-Jewish hatred. To even make such an argument in pursuit of labeling its victims as "whiners" and "people who "play the victim" is to reveal yourself to be not just someone who enjoys mocking and de-legitimizing the suffering of others but also as someone who does so by taking the cheapest possible road. It is similar to arguing that a murder did not occur just because the court spelled the crime incorrectly.

If you really prefer, then call it "anti-Jewish". Whatever makes you happy. But don't assume that the entire world is wrong merely because you disagree with them about something. A good way to learn about a subject, such as antisemitism, discrimination, etymology or even basic manners, is to read about it, preferably books written by respected thinkers on the topic. A poor way is to make assumptions on your own, based solely on the severely limited knowledge you might have gleaned from some like-minded sap's blog... as we've seen you demonstrate.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. 'Anti-semitism' is a term invented NOT by Jews but by Europaean anti-semites
It implies opposition to Jews as an ethnic, not just religious, group. Someone who is 'anti-Jewish' as a form of religious bigotry may accept a Jew who converts to Christianity. Someone who is antisemitic will be against people of Jewish ethnic origin, even if they do not practice the Jewish religion. That is the origin of the term.

Perhaps another term should be invented; but 'anti-semitism' in its origin does not include Arabs.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
30. No, it is indeed you who needs to get "bonked."
Do look up the meaning of the word "anti-Semitism" (also spelled 'antisemitism'). Truly, your ignorance is showing, as well as your propaganda. BTW, you do know that "gay" just doesn't mean "happy," right?
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
48. Not this tired old argument
Anti-semitism means anti jewish. Check any dictionary out. It is the generally accepted definition.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. That's a bit of spin.
Some of those cartoons were absolutely hateful. Others don't say anything more than what Americans saw when both candidates pandered to AIPAC.
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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
31. Like this one?
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IntravenousDemilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
4. Those cartoons are about as subtle as a brick.
And they're just not funny. Do Arabs naturally lack a sense of humour or something?
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I have never found anti-semites the least bit funny
and these stupid racist Arab cartoons are anything but funny.

They are repulsive, but what else is new?

Making fun of Jews, or using anti-semitic barbs is about all they know how to do.

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IntravenousDemilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. The cartoons remind me of how the Nazis (well, and some non-Nazis, too) used to portray Jews...
... you know, with the hooked noses, big lips, and beards -- and a slavering leer as well, don't want to forget that slavering leer.

But that was 60 to 70 years ago, a socially more primitive time. This is the 21st century. Those people are backward and humourless, and they're also hypocritical enough to come up with this shit and yet be the first to get up in arms about cartoons that portray Mo-fucking-hammed.

By the way, I don't "get" anti-semitism. I simply don't understand the impulse behind it. Maybe that's because my whole family on both sides, as far back as I can find out, has been staunchly anti-religious. It's also confusing to witness anti-semitism being practised by semites, which is what Arabs and Palestinians are.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. I don't find racism between closely related ethnic groups that surprising
Happens all the time, especially when nationalism and religious conflict join the mix. E.g. between English and Irish, or Indian and Pakistani.

I don't think that racism corresponds just to a socially more backward time or an uneducated individual. There will probably always be racism; and those who practice it are not 'backward or humourless' in general (at least, not necessarily); they are simply blinded on certain issues by their bigotry, which they have usually learned from others.

Racism exists everywhere but tends to be more accepted when a government is right-wing, especially when this is associated with nationalism.

The outrage over the Mohammed cartoons is not so much 'hypocrisy' as an acknowledgement of the influence of cartoons, and regarding them almost as a war weapon. It may be just *because* they are ready to use cartoons to attack their enemies that they were so quick to perceive the Mohammed cartoons as enmity.

The surprising thing in all this is not so much that antisemitism is a problem in Arab countries, as that it seems to be so influenced by the Europaean variety.

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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
37. 'able to reach a wider audience, due to high illiteracy rates.'
this is something I didn't think about

snip..

Cartoons have a powerful effect throughout the Arab world because they are able to reach a wider audience, due to high illiteracy rates. Their messages have a "big reach," since they can be understood by all people, O'Sullivan said.

The anti-Semitic cartoons appear in outlets throughout Arab media, and can be traced to Bahrain, Hamas-affiliated newspapers, Jordan, the Palestinian Authority, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria and the United Arab Emirates, according to the report.

Through cartoons, a specific image of the presidential candidates can be depicted to the public, said Baha Boukari, a Palestinian cartoonist for a newspaper in Ramallah - whose work is known to be moderate.

"Cartoons give sharp messages, and can read between the lines of any subject," he said.

Arab media outlets criticized American presidential candidates when they condemned terrorism and cited common values shared by Israel and America, said Kory Bardash, co-chairman of Republicans Abroad Israel.

"It is not surprising that the same state-controlled Arab media that celebrates child-murderer Samir Kuntar, also promotes the anti-Semitic conspiratorial theories and stereotypes of Jewish control," he said.

Democrats Abroad Israel Chairwoman Joanne Yaron said she found the cartoons shocking, especially since they came from government-controlled media sources.

more
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=121533107459...
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. Any group lacks a sense of humour with regard to its 'racial enemies'
Not just Arabs.

There is an old English saying: "When poverty comes in at the door, love goes out of the window." One could say, "When bigotry comes in at the door, sense of humour goes out of the window."
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
24. Political cartoons
are not quite like the funnies next to the sports pages. They're generally intended to make a point rather than to elicit a thigh-slapping chuckle. You tend to find them in the "big-sized" papers. Enough condenscension for you?
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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. Satire perhaps,
as portrayed in The New Yorker magazine last week.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. Some of the cartoons (the Syrian ones mostly) cross the line but mostly they're fine...


Take this one for example. Whatever your views on the cartoon itself, you'd have to be fairly McCarthyist to contend that they shouldnt be published.

I note that the ADL considers portraying the Israel lobby as "influential" is anti-semitic. I wonder what the purpose of a lobby is, other than to attempt to influence the decisions of government? Certainly I have yet to meet a lobby that will happily admit to having no influence at all.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Most of the cartoons are hideous characatures of Jews


These points by the ADL are right on target:

Appearing in Arab and Muslim newspapers published in the Middle East and the Gulf countries, the cartoons and caricatures focus on four main themes which reflect a deeply rooted sentiment in the Arab world:

The close relationship between America and Israel and/or the Jews;
The influence of the Jewish lobby on American decision makers;
Jewish control of the Western media and economics;
The American administration's unwavering desire to satisfy Israel and American Jews.
The Arab media use these ideas to feed into another common theme: that Jewish/Israeli control of American politics and America's desire to cater to Jewish/Israeli demands is the cause of the Arab suffering and oppression.



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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. characatures?
Is that a Mexican dish?
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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Seems like I remember
they were not too happy about some cartoons when the shoe was on the other foot.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. And there's the double standard...
Cartoons depicting Muhammed as a terrorist are fine. OTOH, cartoons depicting Obama and McCain as mariachi singers serenading Israel (pretty mild stuff, surely) are seen as anti-semitic.

Personally, the ADL lost all credibility with me when they tried to stifle recognition of the Armenian Genocide - after all, its fairly hard to reconcile being a civil rights organisation with genocide denial. But if they impress you, knock yourself out.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Only one of the Danish cartoons "depicted Muhammed as a terrorist"
(the one with the bomb) and there was an explosion of violence and bombing and burnings and terrorism from Arabs and Muslims.

The Muslims went ballistic over the very "image" of Mohammed.

OTOH, there are anti-semitic cartoons every SINGLE day in the Arab press, and do you see Jews blowing things up, burning Egyptian or Jordanian or Palestinian flags or effigies, creating worldwide havoc?

No.

Jews have a civilized response to freedom of speech, even when they don't like it.

These countries that publish racist or anti-semitic cartoons, even if it is their right under the law, can be criticized for their bigotry.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. "OTOH, there are anti-semitic cartoons every SINGLE day in the Arab press"
What, Arab papers have cartoons of McCain and Obama dressed as mariachi singers serenading an Israeli flag? Terrifying. And this was the best the ADL could find?



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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Nice try!
Edited on Thu Jul-24-08 11:08 AM by Vegasaurus
Seems you don't follow Jewish hatred that is perpetuated on a daily basis in the Arab press. The McCain/Obama mariachi singers are nothing.

The ADL has many other examples of anti-semitic Arab cartoons, since you didn't think those others were "the best the ADL could find."

Perhaps you will like these more (all from 2008, and from all over the Arab world, including Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Jordan, Bahrain,Qatar, the PA, Egypt, Oman, the UAE):

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/gaza_cartoons.asp

Most of the cartoons depict Jews as Nazis, Israel as a Nazi state, Jews as the murderer of God, Jews as snakes, pigs and cockroaches, Jews as "Masters of the World", and let's not forget that favorite: the blood libel motif.

Outrageous, bigoted and racist, and everpresent on a daily basis in the Arab press.

Here are just a couple more examples:

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-21.htm

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiq...

Stormfront, that bastion of white supremacy, LOVES these cartoons, and posts them on their website for comment. I won't link to Stormfront, but anyone can find it.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #26
40. "The McCain/Obama mariachi singers are nothing."

If by "nothing" you mean "not anti-semitic" then we're in full agreement.

Gratuitous Nazi comparisons are in poor taste, but then again Israelis have set a precedent for them by comparing every single Arab leader in history to either the Nazis or Hitler.
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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Could you provide
a link to those cartoons by by the Israelis portraying Arabs as Hitler and Nazis, I would be very interested to see them. Thanks.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. I did not state the comparisons took the form of cartoons
Menachem Begin was well known for comparing the Palestinians and Arafat to Nazis. Ahmadinejad is compared to Hitler, as was Saddam Hussein, as was Nasser, as was even Sadat, etc. Although it would be interesting perusing old microfilms to see if there were in fact Israeli cartoons comparing the Palestinians to Nazis.

Unfortunately while there are several media watchdogs dedicated to digging up the dirt on one side of the fence there is a distinct shortage on the other.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. I am sure a good Google search will unearth all of these images you seek
We will wait in the interim.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. Refer to my statement above...

"Gratuitous Nazi comparisons are in poor taste, but then again Israelis have set a precedent for them by comparing every single Arab leader in history to either the Nazis or Hitler."
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. We are talking gross anti-semitism
as in the Arab cartoons.

Do you agree, or not, that this is gross anti-semitism?

Check out any of the links I provided.

Blood libel, greedy Jews, Jews controlling the world, Jews as Nazis, it's all there.

I asked you to find a single (one) example of the same kind of hideous stereotypical bigotry, either in print, cartoon, or speech (I can provide all three for you of hideous Arab anti-semitism) from the Israeli press.

It will be a long wait, because it doesn't exist.


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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-08 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. Hitler quotes
from Israeli leaders:-

"It is not political adversaries who will stand before us , but the pupils and teachers of Hitler, who claim there is only one way to solve the Jewish question, one way only--- total annihilation."

David Ben Gurion

"I feel as a Prime Minister empowered to instruct a valiant army facing Berlin where amongst innocent civilians, Hitler and his henchmen hide in a bunker deep beneath the surface."

Menachem Begin, during the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon

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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-08 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. You are honestly equating these quotes
which don't relate to a specific "group" or individual (they aren't pointed at Arabs or Muslims, for example), as the same as the horrific, bigoted anti-semitic cartoons?

Ha ha.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-08 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. Begin
was referring to Arafat.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-08 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. Was he calling Arafat (if he was indeed the reference)
a pig, snake, money grubber, hooknosed, controller of the world?

The fact is, that there WAS a Hitler, who did nearly annihilate the entire global Jewish populaiton, due to anti-semitism, hatred, bigotry, etc.

And total annihilation is again the goal, stated in all the literature, of a number of Arab or Muslim leaders, then and now.

Those comments are facts, based in their literature, stated comments and their CARTOONS.

As stated above I asked you to find a single (one) example of the same kind of hideous stereotypical bigotry, either in print, cartoon, or speech (I can provide all three for you of hideous Arab anti-semitism) from the Israeli press.

What you provided are factual quotes, not hideous, stereotypical bigotry, like the Arab cartoons.


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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-08 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #50
59. thats the best you can do?....
Edited on Sat Jul-26-08 05:16 PM by pelsar
i realize its tough to find the israeli moral equivalent to all of those anti israeli/anti jew cartoons, TV shows, editorials, books, movies etc (some great ones came out of iran a couple of years ago...Zahra's Blue Eyes) but i dont think your trying hard enough.

i mean i'm sure some israeli papers must have daily or weekly editorials of the arabs/muslims that shows them as being 'camel jockys", or something similar...right?...its true i havent found anything. I just find these damn israeli movies or Tv shows that show the complex lives of arabs.

but seriously if your going to try to use the "moral equivalent card you really have to try harder...show us something that perhaps gets close to what comes out of the arab world...i know you believe it, so it "must be there"...right? I'm sure its not one of those things where people just want so much to believe something that evidence is irrelevant
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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. I sure do
wish somebody would find it, I'm worn out with looking.
In fact, I give up.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. I think it's odd that anyone would even try to put forth the argument
that there is any equivalency of anti-Arab, anti-Muslim rhetoric, cartoons, speeches, editorials, etc. that come out of Israel.

There isn't, because Israelis don't produce awful anti-Arab rhetoric, cartoons, disgusting bigotry in their newspapers or speeches or TV shows.

One can't find any examples, because they simply don't exist.

And yet, the hideous anti-semitism of the Arab world is somehow acceptable to the so-called progressives.

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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-08 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. So...
Nothing wrong with Israel comparing Arafat/Palestinians to Nazis, but when the shoe is on the other foot, you scream the house down?

Very few of the cartoons compare the Jews to snakes or pigs. Comparing Israel to the Nazis is clearly the dominant meme.

Vegasaurus in his post above indicates that comparison of the Palestinians to the Nazis is "factual" and apparently justified.

As far as cartoons go, I had a quick check, but could not honestly find any significant archives of Israeli cartoons, anti-Arab or not. As I said above, it would be interesting to manually go through newspaper archives and see whether there were examples of anti-Arab cartoons.

There are certainly plenty in American papers eg:-

http://cagle.msnbc.com/news/BushArabs/1.asp
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. you can look here...
http://jpress.tau.ac.il/publications/PPost-en.asp

its the Palestenian post 1932-1950....though there are no cartoons the articles/opinion pieces will give you a good feel for the times......

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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. I agree there is a shortage
from the other side, in fact the only examples I've ever seen are those famous/infamous Danish cartoons and we all know what happened when they were published, so it is understandable that they are few and far between.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. Oh yes, me too
And while we're at it, perhaps the poster could also provide some links, that show Israeli or Jewish cartoons that have any sort of anti-Muslim sentiment.

Ones comparing Arab leaders to Nazis would be fine, but any old generic anti-Muslim cartoon will do.

If possible, please see if you could provide one from numerous newspapers, perhaps one or two a week, from multiple sources, that show racism, bigotry and hatred (like the anti-semitic Arab cartoons, published on a daily or weekly basis in nearly every country in the ME, including those with whom Israel has signed "peace agreements").

Thanks.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
29. where?
"I note that the ADL considers portraying the Israel lobby as "influential" is anti-semitic. "

Where do you "note" this from?
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. See above
Apparently cartoons are anti-semitic if they refer to "The influence of the Jewish lobby on American decision makers"
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. The ADL makes a distinction, you do not.
Some of those cartoons were flat out anti-Semitic. Others showed the candidates pandering to Israel, re-enforcing the idiotic notion Israel "rules" the US, which is a new extension of the Jews run the world. There are legitimate "anti"-Israel cartoons, however, these were beyond the pale.

BTW...what Jewish lobby is that?
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. "Some of those cartoons were flat out anti-Semitic."
But most were not.

Cartoons are supposed to be colourful and wounding. I suspect if we lived in a world where the cartoons were sterile enough to satisfy the ADL it would be an exceedingly dull place.

BTW...what Jewish lobby is that?

Probably the lobby that was voted by the US congress as being the second most powerful in the country, behind the American Association for Retired Persons.

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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #39
49. Try again.
"But most were not."

Which is why I said SOME. The others were bigoted in their portrayal of Israel.

"I suspect if we lived in a world where the cartoons were sterile enough to satisfy the ADL it would be an exceedingly dull place."

I guess the same could be said of Muslims/Arabs (in reaction to the Danish cartoons), the NAACP with recent remarks about Obama's portrayal in some venues and a variety of other "uppity" folks who don't care to see their people/culture/etc portrayed in BIGOTED ways.

"the lobby that was voted by the US congress as being the second most powerful in the country, behind the American Association for Retired Persons."

Really? Congress voted on this? Link? All this time I was unaware of a Jewish Lobby. Does it have a name or is it just some large conglomeration?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-08 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #49
65. Unaware?, well lets get some awareness
The B'nai B'rith Anti-Defamation Commission of Australia defines the "Jewish lobby" as "an unwieldy group of individuals and organisations devoted to supporting the needs and interests of the Jewish community."<2> In his Dictionary of Politics, Walter John Raymond defines "Jewish Lobby" as "A conglomeration of approximately thirty-four Jewish political organizations in the United States which make joint and separate efforts to lobby for their interests in the United States, as well as for the interests of the State of Israel."<1> Dominique Vidal, writing in Le Monde diplomatique, states that in the United States "the self-described Jewish lobby is only one of many influence groups that have official standing with institutions and authorities."<3>
In a 2004 speech, J.J. Goldberg, Editorial Director of The Forward, stated: "The Jewish lobby ... is actually more than just a dozen organizations. The Anti-Defamation League, The American Jewish Committee, Hadassah, of course, AIPAC."<4>


Some sources have stated that the use of the term "Jewish lobby" is antisemitic. The B'nai B'rith Anti-Defamation Commission of Australia further stated that "the assumption, however, that Jews have a disproportionate power and influence over decision making is what transforms a descriptive reality about politics to an antisemitic argument about Jewish power."<2>
Susan Jacobs of Manchester Metropolitan University writes that the phrase, when used "without mentioning other lobbies or differentiating Jews who have different political positions on a number of questions, including Israel and Palestine", is a contemporary form of the fear of a Jewish conspiracy.<9> Robert S. Wistrich, of the International Center for the Study of Anti-Semitism, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, sees reference to the phrase, when used to describe an "all-powerful 'Jewish Lobby' that prevents justice in the Middle East", as reliance on a classic antisemitic stereotype.<10>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_lobby

as far as an actual Congressional vote as to which is most powerful I could not find one, hower when I Googled it this what I got

fficial&client=firefox-a" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/search?q=congress+votes+on+which+...
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-08 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #65
67. an unwieldy group of individuals and organisations devoted to supporting the needs and interests of
"an unwieldy group of individuals and organisations devoted to supporting the needs and interests of the Jewish community."

unwieldy (n-wld)
adj. unwieldier, unwieldiest
Difficult to carry or manage because of size, shape, weight, or complexity: an unwieldy parcel; an unwieldy bureaucracy
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/unwieldy

When most speak of a "Jewish" lobby, they certainly don't mean an "unwieldy" grouop and you must be aware of that.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. Your going to quibble with B'nai B'rith?
It was their quote
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-08 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. And?
I don't care who said it, nor do I care that you were unable to understand my post or even their quote. If you think their is some kind of "Jewish Lobby" based on the the response to the person to whom I responded, as opposed to the bullshit obfuscation you provided, then you have indeed exposed yourself.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. as opposed to the BS obfuscation?
in both of your previous posts?
As for not being the person you responded to, you sir would do well to remember that in future.
Exposing myself as what, presenting you with something that you claimed to be unaware of?

I am done with it, the argument is quite unworthy

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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-08 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Your pompous and uneducated remarks are sad and pathetic.
The person to whom I responded was equating AIPAC with the "Jewish Lobby" and you well know it. It doesn't matter whom responds to whom, but if you are going to jump into a discussion at least know what the fuck you are talking about, or rather what the other person is talking about, but you seem not to know either.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
21. What really shocks me...
Edited on Thu Jul-24-08 02:58 AM by LeftishBrit
is not so much the existence of these cartoons in Arab countries (many of which are known to be on terms of enmity with Israel), as the fact that a few people here are prepared to regard them as 'truth'.
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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. Nothing surprises me anymore. nt
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. It is not all that shocking.
Of course, some that 'defend' this crap are the same ones who scream they are being labeled as anti-Semites for criticizing Israel. If they don't "Israel" and "anti-Semitism" to be intertwined, then they should be the first and the loudest to protest blatant bullshit like this.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
34. Here's a sentence to be edited and separated into two sentences:
"The American elections have provided an excuse for the Arab media to promulgate perverse, bigoted and age-old conspiracy theories that portray Israelis and Jews as controlling the candidates"

How "age-old" are conspiracy theories about Israelis?
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-08 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #34
66. Depends on your definition of "age-old"
Some go back almost 2000 years.

L-
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-08 04:57 AM
Response to Original message
51. Quick, somebody burn an embassy!
Take to the streets!
Burn some shit in effigy!
Get your church to offer a reward to assassins of the cartoonists!
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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-08 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #51
54. Exactly!!! nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #51
62. Deleted message
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