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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 03:33 AM
Original message
Kidnapped troops return in coffins from Lebanon
Kidnapped troops return in coffins from Lebanon

(Ynet reporters Latest Update: 07.16.08, 09:43 / Israel News

VIDEO - Abduction affair which ignited Second Lebanon War comes to its tragic end: The bodies Israel Defense Forces soldiers Staff Sergeant Eldad Regev and Sergeant Major Ehud Goldwasser were handed over to the Red Cross on the Lebanese side of the border at 9 am Wednesday, more than two years after they were kidnapped into Lebanon on July 12, 2006.

Hizbullah's al-Manar network broadcast live images from the Lebanese side of the border, showing two coffins taken off a truck at the Naqoura crossing, north of Rosh Hanikra.


Cries of horror sounded at the Regev residence, as the family witnessed the TV broadcast of the prisoners exchange at the Lebanese border showing Hizbullah turning over two coffins to the Red Cross.
The transmission was accompanied by propaganda videos praising the organizations and its leader, Hassan Nasrallah, for "keeping his promise" and succeeding in releasing Kuntar.

The five Lebanese prisoners left the Hadarim Prison in the Sharon region on Tuesday night and were taken to an IDF base in northern Israel, where they will await the implementation of the deal.

The five, including Kuntar, were escorted to the border under heavy guard, provided by the Prison Service's Nahshon Unit, including wardens, attack dogs, police officers and four police cars.
more...
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3568851,00.ht...

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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 03:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. Now they know for sure...
'Throughout Tuesday, the soldiers' parents gave interviews to the media in which they maintained, as they have for the past two years, that their sons were alive, even as they acknowledged the possibility that Wednesday morning might mark a bitter end for their hopes.

"No one has proven to us that they are dead," said Goldwasser's mother, Miki, who said she looked forward to hugging her son on Wednesday for the first time in two years. "We are looking forward with hope."

Tzvi Regev, Eldad's father, said he, too, was hopeful, despite the rumors of his son's death. '
.........................

IDF identifying bodies presumed to be of Goldwasser, Regev

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=121533098280...

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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 03:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. The question is
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 04:45 AM by azurnoir
will Israel find that the bodies are those of reservists, I do not see Israel turning over Kuntar for a couple of corpses.
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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. It's been done.
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 03:57 AM by notfullofit
'In the early hours of Wednesday morning, the long-anticipated exchange got underway as convicted murderer Kuntar and four Hizbullah operatives captured during the Second Lebanon War were driven from Hadarim prison near Netanya to an IDF base in the North.'

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=121533098280...

(edited, I forgot the link)
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Not quite
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 04:59 AM by azurnoir
From Haaretz

Bodies to be identified before Israel hands over prisoners

Israel receives coffins said to hold bodies of Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev By Haaretz Service Tags: Samir Kuntar, Eldad Regev
Two years after Israeli reservists Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev were abducted by Hezbollah guerillas in a cross-border raid, coffins said to contain their bodies were brought into Israel as part of a prisoner exchange to bring them home.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1002425.html

edited to add-I had read the haaretz article right before your OP and was surprised at your reply, ynet does not say that Kuntar and the other 4 are in Lebanese hands only that they are at a base waiting, the deal is not yet completely done
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. oops...
they did
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. They have did but the posts are almost 6 hours apart
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 11:26 AM by azurnoir

I will confess perhaps this is my own disappointment speaking but a small part of me would not have blamed the Israeli government if they had not handed over at least Kuntar, it would be different if the fact that both Regev and Goldwasser were dead and had been for sometime had been revealed.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. it was pretty clear..
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 11:28 AM by pelsar
that we were trading for two dead bodies.....and kuntar was going free..at least from this part of the world

i just read on a lebanese blog that he might run for parliament....
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 04:30 AM
Response to Original message
5. This is so sad for the families
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 04:31 AM by azurnoir
I had hoped a least one of them was still alive, my condolences to the families.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. There's another example of disgusting generalisations...
A few dozen people gets taken by Veggie and turned into something done by the entire population. Disgusting...
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Note too that
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 01:04 PM by azurnoir
on this thread and the other 2 "the Palestinians are celebrating" threads that the OP of this thread on the same subject or any of the "Pro-Israeli" posters can find the time to extend condolences to the families of Regev and Goldwasser, kind of makes you wonder.
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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Condolences are not in order, is that what you mean?
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 01:11 PM by notfullofit
on edit...
Is there something wrong with being pro Israel (but NOT anti-Palestinian)?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. No that is not what I mean
both myself and LeftishBrit could find time to extend condolences, although mine was answered with a comment that was deleted before I actually saw it, but I suspect it was Vega, what I did mean was that Pro's are so busy bad mouthing Palestinians that the soldiers seem forgotten.
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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. My wife and I
both left our condolences to the families of the soldiers on all the various Israeli newspapers.

As for the Palestinians, they don't need anyone to badmouth them, some are doing a pretty good job of it themselves.

By the way, why do you call reporting on these kind of activities 'badmouthing'?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. Apparently you do not read
the comments on your own threads, as to the threads thems there were 3 on how Arabs were celebrating, Gaza, the West Bank (Abbas), and Lebanon.

Just covering bases I guess.
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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Just the facts ma'am,
just the facts.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. What are you talking about?
I have great sadness for the families, whose sons were murdered by bloodthirsty terrorists.

However, I do not think it was right that the state of Israel bowed to the wishes of the parents to receive the bodies of their children in return for the release of live terrorists.

I do have sympathy for their loss,but they are personal, not state issues, and the state was wrong IMO.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. It isn't 'sickness of the Palestinians'...
It's 'sickness of peoples at war'. Wars breed hatred, dehumanization of the 'others', celebration of violence, etc.

I've just been looking at a collection of verses from WW2 by British writer A.P. Herbert. This was as clear an example of justified war as one can have; there was truly no alternative but to fight and to win. However, one can still notice a bloodthirsty hatred for all Germans and Japanese and gloating over civilian as well as military suffering, that could be called 'sick'.

'There'll always be a Hitler
To worry you and me
Until we take the German race
And sink it in the sea'.


'Plod on, poor frozen Fritzes;
Plod on, poor frozen Frau;
You who invented blitzes
Are in the business now..

Sing 'Heil' to mighty Russia,
Farewell to farm and shack.
This is an end of Prussia
And you're not coming back'.


'Each little piece (of broken glass from a home damaged by air-raids) I pluck from a flowerbed
Is a piece of Hitler, soiling the English spring.
For each I cry a curse on a German head,
And when I remember Aachen - I laugh and sing.'


And for Japan:

'...Do you remember, long ago
When earthquakes toppled Tokyo?
We passed the plate, we filled our caps
With hard-won pennies for the Japs.

This is Bushido. This is how
Our children are rewarded now.
When God again afflicts Japan,
Let her not look to mortal man;
And God bless those who mean to make
The whole of that vile island quake.'


So: wars do corrupt people into celebrating violence and hatred for enemies. I hope that one day, before too long, the Israelis and Palestinians will be able to co-exist in peace. After all, it's been some time since the English and Japanese hated each other.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. People here constantly remind us
that four times the Palestinans have been killed since the first Intifada as Israelis.

I do not see four times the Israeli celebration of these Palestinian deaths.

I do not even see one quarter the celebration.

That's because there is no celebration of Palestinian deaths by Israelis.

So, while I agree that war dehumanizes people, breeds hatred, this reaction is not common.

I also don't ever see Americans celebrating the deaths of innocent Iraqi or Afgani people from this horrible war on Terror.

The fact that too many Palestinians celebrate the deaths of Israelis does not mean that every other society involved in a war does the same thing.

They don't.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. My impression is...
that in *this respect* (open celebration of violence) the Israelis are less bad than many countries at war. My lack of knowledge of Hebrew may make me unaware of some such celebrations.

The British and Americans are certainly quite ready to celebrate deaths of their enemies. To give a more recent example than A.P. Herbert - during the Falklands War of 1982, the Sun celebrated the sinking of the 'General Belgrano' with many deaths, with a huge headline 'GOTCHA!'
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. i cant recall any celebrations of death.....
in israel....not of hizballa, hamas, individual terrorists etc.... At best there is a "he had it coming"....or its good hes dead"...but out right celebrations? cant recall even one.......The whole "demonization thing" doesnt exist within mainstream israel, that the Palestinians are less than human etc.....
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. That is good to know...
wish it was the same in Britain! (Whether it's tabloid 'Gotcha!' headlines, or until recently the IRA and Protestant paramilitary factions celebrating terrorist murders, or...)
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #18
29. To clarify slightly...
Edited on Thu Jul-17-08 09:36 AM by LeftishBrit
Britain has not actually *had* anything like the same sort of internal violence that Lebanon has, at least not since the 17th century. Nor does the State sponsor celebrations of violence. However, there is a significant element within popular culture (especially at least till recently in Northern Ireland) that does admire and celebrate violence toward enemies.

Obvious to anyone in Britain; but thought I'd better clarify my post because occasionally some very odd ideas about Britain come up on DU.
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Sezu Donating Member (920 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. Indeed they don't and everybody knows who does
as a matter of course, publically and unabashedly. Then, some find excuses for it instead of properly condemning it as a HUGE detriment to peace; something they claim they want. How this works eludes me.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. Thats because shooting Arabs is easy...
and fighting against a credible opponent (the Germans or even the Argies) is much harder.

The British didnt celebrate the Amritsar massacre or the millions killed in its other colonial wars, for the reason that they were simple, straightforward turkey-shoots. Just because Israel does not celebrate shooting rubber bullets at Arabs in the occupied territories, or Britain did not celebrate mowing down spear-throwing natives with machine guns, is not a tribute to the humanitarianism of either. It might be a tribute to their self-regard, but not their compassion.

Hizbollah managed to go the distance over 34 days with an opponent much larger, stronger, and resourceful than itself. Personally, I was shocked that Israel fared so poorly against them. I expected a repeat of the 1982 war where Israel was able to make a relatively easy advance before being harrassed back to a narrow security buffer.

Normally, when guerilla forces try to fight conventional battles against regular militaries they unreservedly lose (eg, the PLO in Lebanon circa 1982, the Tet Offensive). HA did not. They did not even use their reserves. That a force of 3,000 men with small arms, forty-year old MANPADs and thirty-year old anti-tank rifles could do that against a well-regarded military is pretty astounding, honestly. If I were them, I'd celebrate it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
8. This is just so sad.
And as it seemed to be known by this time that they were dead, I am a little surprised that the Israelis were so prepared to trade someone like Kuntar in exchange.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. its israel watching out for its own.....
the families wanted/needed their sons back.......kuntar is just one more terrorists that crossed the border to kill, was he any crueler than the terrorist that shot the 3 kids at point blank range while seat belted in the car in gaza?...or the terrorists that machine gunned the kids at school at maalot?..the the terrorist that shot the israelis on the bus one by one (1954 eilat)

i'm afraid hes just one more in a long line........child killers in the name of Palestine.....
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notfullofit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. change the victory celebrations in Lebanon to a mass funeral
snip...

'MK Arye Eldad (National Union/National Religious Party) called for an immediate attack against Hizbullah.

"After the bodies have been returned, Israel can change the victory celebrations in Lebanon to a mass funeral," he said shortly after it became clear that both reservists Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev were being returned in coffins. "The IAF can today complete the work that they didn't manage to get done during the war."




http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=121533099635...
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. There are very few situations so bad...
that Eldad cannot try and make them even worse.

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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-16-08 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
25. To the intransigent go the spoils...
Edited on Wed Jul-16-08 11:18 PM by shaayecanaan
from the Guardian...

Many observers saw Hizbullah's successful deal-making with Israel as a major blow to moderate Arab leaders, such as the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, who is currently pursuing US-backed peace talks with Israel.

"This sends a very dangerous message that Israel only makes concessions if you use violence against it," said Amal Saad Ghorayeb, an expert on Hizbullah. "The exchange has also laid bare that, in Lebanon at least, national power is not in the hands of the state, but of a non-state actor."


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