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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 04:07 AM
Original message
Breaking News: Gaza explosion hits U.S. diplomatic convoy
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/10/15/mideast.blast...

A massive explosion rocked a U.S. diplomatic convoy in northern Gaza on Wednesday, Palestinian sources said, with several casualties reported.

It was not immediately known whether the blast was caused by a suicide bomber or a roadside explosive.

Israel Radio is reporting four Americans are dead. But that report could not be immediately confirmed.

The explosion occurred near Beit Hanoun. Video of the scene showed several demolished vehicles, with bloodstains nearby.

...........................................................

tv now reporting 3 or 4 american diplomats dead.

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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. The dead are reported to be
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. jpost
Edited on Wed Oct-15-03 04:19 AM by drdon326
"Israel radio said members of the CIA and John Wolf, head of a team monitoring implementation of the road map, were in the convoy. Palestinians reported four dead and one wounded, all American"


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/J...

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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Contradictory reports
The American embassy in Tel Aviv said that
contrary to initial reports, U.S. special
Middle East envoy John Wolf was not in the
convoy. Wolf is responsible for monitoring
compliance with the road map peace plan.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/350191.html
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. That does not surprise me
having worked in EMS when any VIP is or is not involved,
you have no idea as to the contorsions that go on around
that.

Now that I said that... if the Ambassador was in teh vehicle,
and he was just hurt, I can bet he will be quietly evacuated to
Ramstein and this will not be admited by the Bushites.

Imagine the boost to the morale of whoever was behind this.

Now if he was killed, it will take time for the truth to
emerge.

Yes I am willing to believe that our boys WILL LIE over that
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. TV CNN
Saeb Erakat "offers condolences" to families of
americans killed.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Yep and have you noticed the
spin starting on CNN?

Watershed event, yes, yes it is... but lets see
how the bushites use it
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. TV CNN
IST Vehicle targeted.

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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Targeted
Obviously the Americans were targeted. The vehicle destroyed had US diplomatic plates. However, Ha'aretz reports that the 3 deaths were not US personnel.

Palestinian security officials said three
Americans had been killed in the explosion. A
Palestinian policeman at the scene said he had
seen at least two bodies ripped apart but
Israel Radio said there were four dead in all.


Could this be a response to the US veto yesterday? Erakat is rather quick with the condolences.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. And now CNN finally confirms that them were Americans
not good

expect bush to use this
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. for what?
Edited on Wed Oct-15-03 05:44 AM by Aidoneus
What damage could Bush and his handlers deal out that the Israeli army hasn't already? (without success, I might add)

The only thing that may come from this is very ugly rhetoric from the usual suspects, and perhaps a more honest official backing of all Israeli acts and programs, which is already the case but in a slightly veiled manner.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. this will give Bush the gruonds he needs
to pursue the Syria trackt and sell it to Congress.

This is what may be at stake... a war with Syria.
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Dude.....
maybe you want to read something.

http://avpv.tripod.com/AmericanVictims.html
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Hey, dood...
I read. That site seems pretty intent on stereo-typing Arabs as terrorists. Do you think someone should point out to them that Iranians aren't Arabs, and that attacks on military personnel isn't terrorism?

Violet...
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. check out the bottom
Edited on Wed Oct-15-03 05:52 AM by Aidoneus
Americans and what's left of the "civilized" world has a real battle on their hands. The sooner they recognize these cold-blooded, barbaric thugs for what they are and unite in a common front against them, the better chance the world will be spared more vicious attacks. A very good start would be to back Israel who is right at the front lines of the war pitting Good against Evil. Jews in Israel and pre-State "Palestine" have been attacked and murdered for over 120 years by Arabs. Even a so-called "peace" agreement didn't put a stop to Jewish deaths!

The last two words ('Jewish deaths') then links to masada2000.org, a site that makes even our dearest Herschel & drdon look calm and rational by comparison.

On the side, I don't see what Yemeni kidnappings among the other oddities in that liast have to do with "Palestinian 'terrorism'", but I guess that's not that point, and demonizing all Arabs/Muslims is.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Thanks for pointing that out...
I gave up scrolling after spotting the two bloopers I saw high up towards the start of the page....

I guess the makers of that page assume that their average audience will be illiterate, foaming-at-the-mouth Freeper types who label all Arabs, Iranians, or anyone not white, Christian, or Jewish, as Palestinians. After all, none of them are from the 'civilised world' so they all must be the ENEMY! ;)

Violet...
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. hmm
Wow such wonderul links. First LGF, then Cox and Forkum then this.. I wonder what are are the intentions of some posters here providing links to racist, anti-Muslim, anti-Palestinian extreme sites that promote hatred and even violence against them. One could only wonder...
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. indeed
Edited on Wed Oct-15-03 06:34 AM by Aidoneus
don't forget the New York Post, Gamla, Jerusalem Post, other posters suggesting the "Internet Haganah" page, etc.. I don't think any of them should be disallowed--and I also would object to any of don's wonderful posts, and those like it, being deleted like so many others are at a frequent rate lately--, but the message being delivered in the process is quite interesting, much moreso than whatever itself is said. The supreme irony is then to turn around and attack others as "fascist", or refer to others as "reactionary", as Don has as of late (after learning a new word from other people here, though I really doubt he would catch the meaning or historical reference implied by it).

On the side, I wonder really what is considered "good" by these types--or if "us" (whoever "us" is in whatever situation) equals "the good", and thus "evil" is just meant as something generic to describe those who are "not us". That's a formula common enough in history, and it takes those of a really shallow gullibility to buy the hook & sinker of such demagogery, but it's often quite successful.

Bush's army in Iraq has killed thousands and thousands more innocent people than Hamas ever could if given decades--and in just a few months! This seems to be fall under 'civilized'. Funny logic, that.. I'm getting quite off-topic here, but since Don brought it up first it is worth a comment.
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #28
41. As long as you remember me, Aidoneus
.
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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
112. Excellent post, Aidoneus...
:toast:
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #20
32. Racist?
I've said this before. If you think a site is racist, make your case to the mods. If they agree, then I can accept that opinion. Otherwise, seems like just complaining about something you don't like.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Sites
Edited on Wed Oct-15-03 06:39 AM by bluesoul
If you don't see the problem with those sites, then I really don't have much to say to you. They're not even hiding their agenda or their hatred towards anything Muslim. It took me 5 minutes of scrolling through their sites to realise it. Don't need any more proof then that. I would react the same (with disgust) if someone provided me the link of sites like Stormfront, DavidDuke, Blood&Honour saying I should read what they have to say about Israel or Jews in general. I hope you get my point..
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #35
43. The point you avoid is
If you can prove, do so. Otherwise, you simply don't like what they have to say.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. How about you go and click on the links?
No-one has to prove anything to you. If you don't think that there's racism present in some of those sites, then I've lost all respect for you, Muddle...

I simply don't like what some of those sites have to say because they're racist....

Violet...
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #47
51. You claim it is racist
So give me a cite of something specifically racist and I will look. I have glanced at Mosada2000.org and saw nothing racist, just inflammatory if you are Palestinian.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #51
57. No, it IS racist...
Saying sites like those aren't is like a Klansman saying the KKK aren't racist....

btw, I'm not a Palestinian and I think mosada2000.org is racist, so chew on that....

The fact is that you could be shown the most bigoted piece of crap about Arabs and you'd still say it wasn't racist. Strange, isn't it? You see anti-semitism everywhere when it comes to criticism of Israel, but yr sensitivity seems to stop dead when it comes to spotting bigotry towards other groups...

Violet...
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. You should read what I wrote
I "glanced" at it. Saw nothing racist to me and moved on. If you wish to include a specific set of instances that make it racist in your mind, feel free.

I personally see no particular need to spend my day analyzing it one way or the other.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #58
62. Oh, please...
If you didn't spot the racism in those sites from a 'glance' at one site, then spend more than the one second you took for you to form an uninformed opinion about it...

Heh, you personally saw a particular need to spend yr day analysing a cartoon on a site recently because you said it was anti-semitic. If you were fair-minded at all, you'd do the same no matter who the bigotry was aimed at...

Taken a 'glance' at Cox & Forkum yet, or are you waaay too busy? ;)

Violet...
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #62
67. As you recall
I said I find no difference in that site than stuff that is in ALL of the Palestinian and Arab press. I posted a similar response.

As for this site that I went to (masada2000.org) I read an article complaining about self-hating Jews (gee, original) and one complaining about Rabbi Lerner. Didn't see anything racist in either.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #67
71. It's to be expected, I guess...
If you can't see the difference between the bigoted hate published on one site and ALL of the Arab press, then I give up on you...

Is there anything at all that you do view as being bigoted or racist against Arabs?

Violet...
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #71
74. Huh?
There is probably tons of stuff bigoted toward Arabs. I tend not to seek it out.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #74
76. Probably?
Try definately. You don't even have to seek it out. It jumps right out at ya...

Violet...
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. Maybe it jumps out at you
I tend not to "surf" the web much. I stick to the same sites more or less unless I am doing research.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. So anti-semitism doesn't jump out at you?
Because with both forms of bigotry, you don't need to surf the web to find evidence of it. All it takes is to turn on the telly or open a newspaper to see that both exist...

I think the fact that you can't even bother to take the time to check out sites like Cox & Forkum, LGF, etc, says a lot about yr selectivity when it comes to acknowledging racism and bigotry...

Violet...
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #78
79. Only here
I check it out when I see the need.

I am not the web police. I believe that all forms of expression, even bile have a right to be said. If someone uses something that I find either thought-provoking or offensive, then I check it out.

I have done so with some Palestinian sites here and got one banned as a result.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. So you don't see the need to check out racism?
You find anti-semitism offensive but you don't find bigotry towards Arabs offensive enough to check out? Okay. Got you worked out now, Muddle. No offense, but yr selective attitude towards bigotry is totally disgusting...


Violet...
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #80
82. Not sure why you are on this crusade
I have only so many hours in the day. There seem to be several posters here who are only focused on the Palestinian side of this issue and only a few who are on the Israeli side. I use my time as wisely as possible.

That said, on DU, I regularly alert any time I see anything that is racist, bigoted or a personal attack, no matter who does it.

I don't have a selective attitude toward bigotry. I have a selective attitude toward my time.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #82
84. No crusade...
And we're not talking about time management, or who is on what side. We're talking about how you have time to go checking out bigotry when it's anti-semitism, but no time to check it out if it's bigotry against Arabs...

I don't find yr claim that you alert regularly on racism or bigotry very reassuring as it's been made clear in this thread that yr selective on what you define as racism or bigotry. And despite yr claims to the contrary, you are selective about bigotry because you claim you just don't have the time to check out bigotry against Arabs...

Violet...
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. Perfect summation Violet
sad as it is.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #84
91. Wow, I dare to disagree
With you on what is racist. Shocking that two people could look at something and see it differently.

I am not selective on what I define, I simply define it as I see it.

If I see bigotry/racism HERE, then I will comment on it. There is plenty enough for me to focus on comments about Israel and Jewish people since that is an area of my focus.

I said in an earlier post that if you want to pick out what you consider racist on that site, I would look at it. But I am not going to search a site just because your or others consider it racist. If it is racist, appeal to the mods of which I am not one.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #91
94. "If I see bigotry/racism HERE, then I will comment on it"
It's been here,and your comment was defending it.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. That's clearly only your opinion
Personally, I've alerted on a fair number of things in the I/P forum on both sides. So you know not whereof you speak.
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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #58
115. Why demand proof if you "glanced" at it?
Awefully confident in defending something that you just "glanced" at.

Must be cool to live in your world.

Good grief....

:eyes:
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #115
118. Putting words into my mouth
Which seems to be common around here lately. Didn't defend, didn't attack. If you wish to attack it, feel free. You know where the mods can be reached.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #35
69. Whenever anyone criticizes any Arab policy
you cry racism. You are just trying to stifle debate.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #69
73. Wakey, wakey...
The sites bluesoul talked about weren't criticising any Arab policy. They might do so in a clumsy way that bigoted sites tend to do, but the message gets lost in the bigotry...

It seems to me that it's not bluesoul trying to stifle debate...


Violet...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. Yeah, racist...
And despite what you say, people are quite entitled to say they think a bigoted site is racist. They don't need permission from the mods to say so....

Violet...
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Amen
Exactly!
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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #32
113. Can't you decide for yourself if something is racist?
or do you have to rely on a mod to make that decision for you?

:shrug:
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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
111. This says it all...
A very good start would be to back Israel who is right at the front lines of the war pitting Good against Evil. Jews in Israel and pre-State "Palestine" have been attacked and murdered for over 120 years by Arabs. Even a so-called "peace" agreement didn't put a stop to Jewish deaths!

If they (makers of the site) are concerned for the "citizens" of Israel, why didn't they just say Israeli citizens. Instead they state "Jews in Israel and pre-State 'Palestine"...which by process of omission tells you that they don't care for a significant portion of the Israeli population.

I can rest easy in concluding that that site was made by fucking racists.

:eyes:
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 05:50 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Hey Ms. Aussie......
why dont you comment on the article and the killing
these people??

try to ACTUALLY comment on the thread that I posted.

g'day mate !!
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Hey, Mr Yank...
If you didn't want comments on the link you posted, why post it?

Violet...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. Huh?
You know what my reaction to 9/11 was? Where on earth do you come up with such a ridiculous attempt to show any knowledge of what my views are?


Violet...
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #30
52. you posted it, remember?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #52
68. Where did I post this?
I expressed joy?? Show me a link to this post. What you said is total, unmitigated crap of the highest order, and of course isn't at all what my reactions or views were...

Violet...

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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #24
38. THATS FUNNY !!
.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. WHY??
I thought it was kinda pathetic, but I guess some people have a strange sense of humour...

Violet...
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. 9/11
That's a typical method of trying to discredit someone by presuming how they reacted to 9/11. Even though they have no clue how it really was...
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #42
63. I presume what you mean
but never state it because (to my knowledge) you never put it on a public forum.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #63
72. Wrong
Oh I have stated it clearly enough. I don't need to prove myself. My conscience is clear..
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. Lets try again, Ms. Crumble
As someone who "hates violence in all forms" why dont
you,even half heartedly, condemn the violence in the lead
post??
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #44
54. You answer my question first...
Why was what rini said FUNNY!! ?

And for the thousandth time, I come here to discuss the I/P issue. I know there's some who think that unless this place isn't turned into some seething hotbed of outrage for deaths only when they happen to whatever group they have selected to champion, then there's no indepth discussion going on. I condemned a suicide bombing once when I first arrived and was pounced on by a 'pro-Israeli' poster for supposedly not using outraged enough sounding adjectives, so I don't tend to bother wasting keystrokes becoming a performing seal for those who demand I must express outrage over everything they decide they're outraged about...


Violet...
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. Yeah
And if only they ever expressed their outrage at innocent Palestinians being killed by the IDF. We won't be seeing that soon...
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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #55
116. Wrong!
They weren't killed by the IDF. They were killed by the IOF.

There's a difference, you know?
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #54
60. Really ??
" I condemned a suicide bombing once when I first arrived and was pounced on by a 'pro-Israeli' poster for supposedly not using outraged enough sounding adjectives"

How could i have missed that monumental event??

Guess i'll have to wait for the next viewing of Haleys comet
before i'll ever hear that again.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #60
66. You still didn't answer my question...
Why did you think what rini said was FUNNY!! ? I'd love to know...

If you haven't seen my posts saying I oppose suicide bombings, which have been quite plentiful here, then you need to read the forum a lot more closely than you obviously do...

And if I can work out how to get to the old DU, I can find the post yr implying I'm lying about. It exists, the person who attacked me over it still posts here sporadically, and it'd be worth going and finding it except of course you'd just ignore it...

Violet...
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #66
120. You want to go to the old DU?
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #66
121. dupe
Edited on Fri Oct-17-03 11:26 PM by Darranar
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #60
119. It Did Happen, Doctor
My recollection of it hazed as to names, and it would not be possible for me to provide a connection to the exchange, but the occassion for a grin is clearly recollected....
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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
110. That's such an even handed and progressive site, drdon...
...I don't understand your affinity for trashy sites.

:eyes:
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
45. just in
Internet Haganah urges the State Department to exercise restraint and consider the possible negative consequences that any retaliatory action might have on implementation of the Roadmap.</sarcasm>

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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. Youre on a roll, rini
Edited on Wed Oct-15-03 06:55 AM by drdon326
thats real funny.
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morebunk Donating Member (202 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #3
65. Mossad at work again.
The Palestinians, who have been begging for US monitors to to check out the brutality of Israel would have no reason to do this. Notice how conveniently this took place after yesterday's UN veto of the resolution against Israel. But Israel would have a reason to do this...just like killing journalists covering Jenin and other territories under brutal Israeli occupation. This smells to high heaven. Mossad will now call in, desguised as Hamas or some other group they have designated as terrorists and claim responsibility. THIS STINKS!!!

The CIA was too close to bringing down the Bush administration, so now they can turn their attention to the Palestinians... how transparent.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #65
70. Of course
The terrorists never do ANYTHING that's bad or irrational or deadly or self defeating. Everything on planet earth is really just a black op for the Powers That Be.

I'm going to go roll in some tinfoil now.
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DisgustipatedinCA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #70
89. Go to motive
Who benefits from such a bombing? Hmmm?
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #89
92. Psycho murdering terrorists
Have plenty of motive to kill already. It defines them.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #92
93. Yes, you are right, Sharon is a murdering terrorist
His actions in Lebanon, and his more recent attack on Syria, shows that this Drug Limbaugh look-alike should be arrested and shipped in chains to The Hague.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #93
123. You are always good for a laugh
Thanks.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. Well not to sound alarmist but given Bush's mentality
when are the Marines landing
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 05:58 AM
Response to Original message
17. Apparently neither Israel or Palestine has claimed credit yet

An AP reporter saw a gray wire with an on-off switch leading from the scene of the attack to a small concrete room at the side of the road....

Mohammed Radwan, a Palestinian taxi driver, said he was at the gas station when the blast went off...."I was about to fill up my car with gas when I saw the American convoy passing," Radwan said. "There was a Palestinian police car in front and then three big (U.S.) cars. When the third one passed, an explosion went off."..Israeli radio reports said CIA officials were traveling in the convoy. Palestinian officials said the diplomats were U.S. monitors. Some of the monitors are from the CIA....

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20031015_451.html
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. the israelis will not
now who was behind this?

Oh boy the list of those INSIDE and OUTSIDE the
Territories is long and distinguished....

Point is, at this point it really does not matter who
claims responsibity, this is a watershed event in the middle
east and far more destablization in the middle east.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Well if your previous post is correct, and it was intended to pave the way

for the bush regime gunmen to be deployed to Palestine to help Likud murder more Palestinians, that could indeed soften the blow to Israel when Sugar Daddy US orders the IDF off to Syria and deputizes the Hebron Settla Posse to protect Israel proper.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Nah the IDF will not do it,
not without US support on the other side,

This is PNAC, assuming it is PNAC...

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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. oh I agree with you, I'm just trying to figure out where they're going

with this, in the short term that is. We all know the goal.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #23
75. Today's Rationalization
Is brought to you by...
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #22
102. Don't count on it
FBI, yes they arrived today. Marines - no way. No US military will be sent. Talk about aninternational peace-keeping force demanded by the PA has received a definate warning. No can do.
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. It is nice to see some things never change.
No matter what happens (unless it's good) it's Israel's fault.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Fault
From people that always blame the Palestinians even when their civilians are killed by the IDF...
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Yuo know it is both sides fault
and until both realize that both have comited war crimes, this
will continue.

Now I can either bet on Hammas, there are good reasons

or just to confuse the issue even more Al Qaida, and the last
one woudl be extremely serious.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Fault
I KNOW it's both sides fault, but some people here would never admit it. For them even when Palestinian kid gets blown up by the IDF, it's Palestinians fault (because they are supposed to be hiding among them every moment and similar BS)...
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. Terrorists
The Palestinian terrorists hide actively in the Palestinian population, largely because the Palestinian (note the trend?) leadership refuses to do anything about it. You can't fault Israel for attacking them. What would you have Israel do with these murdering bastards? Ignore them?

This event just proves something we have known for some time. That the U.S. and Israel have common cause against these monsters and that many here refuse to recognize it.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Monsters
Palestinians kids, minors, women, elderly and civilians in general are MONSTERS? They are also being killed in large numbers...
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #36
46. Sorry you think they are monsters
I don't. But SOME of them are. And their leadership tolerates, encourages and facilitates them.

And no, they are not being killed in large numbers. Given the millions of people involved in this conflict, the number of deaths remains small.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #46
50. LOL I dont think you thought that one through, Muddles

Go ahead. take a free do-over
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #50
53. No free over
You used the term, I used the sarcasm.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. I was referring to the "not large numbers" part

Because the number of Palestinian casualties is much larger than the number of Israeli casualties, I'm not sure the best argument for your side is to say that the number of Palestinian dead is not large, as you will doubtless wish to refer several times during the day to the large number of Israeli casualties :)
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #56
61. I didn't say the casualties were acceptable
They are not large in context. If they two groups actually went to a full-scale war, people would be dying in the thousands each week.

What IS bad is that the Palestinian terrorists target civilians specifically.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #61
64. Have you ever noticed that Israel transports soldiers on civilian buses?

Israel's skillful and speedy post-attack press release expressing regret for any innocent loss of life, and repeatedly stating that they do not target civilians every time any are killed is indeed a practice that Islamic Jihad would do well to emulate.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #56
104. What is this supposed to mean?
"the large number of Israeli casualties :)" You are no doubt pleased with the large numbers. Admit your bias. Palestinian casualties include minor injuries. Israeli casualties, if mentioned could go much higher. Usually only the deaths are publicized.


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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #104
109. I do not agree that 1 Jewish fingernail is worth more than 1000 Arab lives


I have already admitted that I believe that an Israeli life is no more or less valuable than a Congolese life, a Bolivian, Iraqi, Palestinian, Finnish or American life.

Muddles said that the number of Pal casualties was not very large.

Because there are about four times more Pal casualties than Israeli ones, and because I do not think that he intended to say that the number of Israeli casualties was not very large, I suggested he do it over.

I am sorry, although I realize that it is a very popular view with sharon regime loyalists, I do not agree that injuries to Palestinians are by their nature not serious.

I do not apologize for believing that Palestinian children need 2 eyes, and the ability to walk, and run, and hold pencils and think is just as important as are all those things for the blondest and richest of Israeli children.
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #34
59. Makes you think
As of Oct. 11, Israel had seen 884 of its people murdered and 5,956 injured. Israel has a population of 5 million. In Russia, the comparable murder rate would be 25,636; in the European Union, 67,184, and in the United States, 49,150. No other country would put up with such attacks on its own citizens as Israel has been repeatedly pressured to do.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/20031014-0852...


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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. Ah, but which Hamas? and which Al Qaeda?

The Mossad embed-infested Hamas?

Or the CIA-created Al Qaeda?

One of the stupidest things the PA does is continue snivelling and grovelling at the feet of the bush regime, playing the gimp to the US regime's Chudwah*...

*Clueless hetboy dom wannabe
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #33
48. Blame
You seem willing to blame everyone but the Palestinians for their terror groups. Amazing.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #48
81. The US is ordering all Americans out of Gaza
in a story now breaking on TV. Most of the Americans in Gaza are human rights activists and observers. Since the Mossad never had qualms about killing Americans in the past, I wouldn't put it past them to do this in order to get rid of any potential witnesses to the pogrom that Israel is about to unleash in Gaza.

The only terrorists in Gaza are the IDF and the settlers.

Israel has no historical or biblical ties or claims to Gaza
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #81
105. An unwise and false statement
"The only terrorists in Gaza are the IDF and the settlers."

An unwise and false statement, particularly after the recent bombing. You don't have a long enough memory to recall the Oct 2000 bombing of Israeli school bus killing students and teachers, maiming for life serveral young children. For shame. No terrorists in Gaza. What a sweeping falsehood.

The breaking through security fences at a yeshiva and the murder of young students. Another incident you seem to have forgotten. The killing of a young couple strolling on the street of their neighborhood, another shameful oversite.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #26
103. "when their civilians are killed by the IDF"
What web site do your read?
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
83. The explosive device was top-of-the-line technology...
with a directed carbon steel wedge. It sliced that armored SUV in half.

This device was "off-the-shelf, IMO. I wonder who is selling black market RAAMS?
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #83
86. If the Pals really have this technology, either it just came today

Or they have been raising the concept of "restraint" to levels not dreamed of even by those who insisted that Saddam had WMD and had simply chosen not to use it during years of being bombed 2 or 3 times a week.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #86
88. like the ones here who are just waiting for the most opprotune time to HIT
blackout, slow moving hurricane, be dammed.

obviously there are gonna be a LOT of ANGRY folks in neighborhoods with tanks, barbedwire, death, and checkpoints and they don't have as many resources to obtain such devices without great difficulty.

so i take it this device was attached to the truck? i wonder if we will ever find out how that happened :shrug:

peace
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #86
106. The tunnels from Egypt
How could you forget? The purpose of the Rafeh operation Root Canal? Too bad it has come about too late.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. Those tunnels were used to smuggle contraband food and water

and medicine to Palestinian children.

That is why they were destroyed.

The Resistance does not have to smuggle weapons through tunnels.
They live next door to a gunrunner's paradise.

As long as only small stuff is sold to the Resistance, the sharon regime is content to pocket their take and look the other way.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #83
90. Does raise the question of where it came from?
If the Palestinians can get their hands of these, raiding Gaza
won't be fun anymore. And if they don't, then who did this and
why?
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #90
99. It was a RAAMS (Remote AntiArmor Mine System)
The device has a very thin wire that goes to a control. The control activates an electric eye. When the beam of the electric eye is broken the device explodes a shaped charge that propels a specially shaped steel "plate" upwards. The plate is actually a very heavy carbon steel wedge shaped like a curved pup tent (in some newer models depleted uranium is used).

These devices are designed to breach the armor shell and produce little or no fireball, just a lot of hot metal flying everywhere. They are not very easy to setup either, there is a reflector on the mine itself while the electric eye transmitter is located on the control unit. Line of sight must be maintained between the control unit and the reflector on the mine so the front tire of the selected car breaks the beam. It's essential for the wedge to strike between the front and rear axle or the armored target will likely withstand the assault. The control can be set to allow for many odd numbered beam breaks before arming the device which allows one to chose car number 1, 2, 3, etc.

Oh yeah, this device is military equipment currently in the US arsenal. If it has depleted uranium, is was US manufactured in the last 10 years. To my knowledge there are 3 sources for military issue RAAMS, 2 in the US and 1 in Sweden.

It's also a tool used by black ops due to the proliferation of armored vehicles for VIPs.

My guess would be this is coming from someones intel agency or Osamas boys have come to town. But who knows, this RAAM could have "fallen off a truck" somewhere and found its way into Palestinian hands. One must assume then that a manual in the appropriate langauge also simultaneously fell of the same truck.

Stranger things have happened...
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. I think Osama's boys have come to town
They are already in Iraq, thanks to us for getting rid of their arch enemy Saddam Hussein.

The US sponsors Israel and its military, it only makes sense to target Israel's enabler.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. Most of what I see by googling are FASCAM.
Edited on Wed Oct-15-03 10:26 PM by bemildred
Or at least documented that way.
Not that I doubt your word. How do you know this particular
one was this type of device?

(Lemmee guess, just the descriptions?)
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #101
107. Pretty much...
also looking at the wreckage one can see the armor shell was split in two and there was no fireball (eg. charring). There are not many manufacturers of these devices. If there was charring then it would have been a "Volcano" antiarmor mine which attempts to burn through the armor shell. Those are not as effective as a RAAMS.

This was no mine from a distribution (scatter) system. One of the reports indicated witnesses describing a thin gray wire leading from the blast site to a small concrete room by the roadside. The wires are actually translucent, but can easily look gray to the casual glance or when covered with dust. In addition, any scatter system would render the eletric eye trip beam useless. The electric eye beam is key in insuring the mine detonates in-between the front and rear axle. Not easy to do manually with moving vehicles while trying to stay hidden.

I have seen many of these systems demonstrated at military trade shows. My line of work involves satcom and encryption so I go to a lot of military hardware shows and demonstrations to peddle my wares.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #107
114. Thanks.
:thumbsup:
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #107
122. that again begs the question
Edited on Fri Oct-17-03 11:33 PM by Aidoneus
how the hell did <whoever> get one of those.. Are they something being sold at events like that arms fair in Britain?

thanks for the info on it..
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The Commie Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #83
117. WTF!?!
:wtf:

Somthing fishy is going on, it is either AQ or Mossad, I highly doubt Hamas would have this stuff.

:nuke:
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
87. hmmm, guess sharons measures still aren't bringing more peace and SECURITY
Edited on Wed Oct-15-03 09:50 AM by bpilgrim
what to do?

sharon: lets kill more, MORE! obviously we aren't killing enough of THEM.

peace
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
96. Hmmm...."WHO benefits from this....?"
Definitely not the Palestinians...
Gee...I wonder... :eyes:
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shepard Donating Member (63 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. Prayer for the White Man


And now, Grandfather, I ask you to bless the White Man.

He needs your wisdom, your guidance.

You see, for so long, he has tried to destroy my people,

and only feels comfortable when given power.

Bless them, show them the peace we understand,

teach them humility. For I feel they will someday

destroy themselves and their children, as they have done to

Mother Earth. I plead, I cry. After all, They are my Brothers

Ahe'ee Nehemah
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MaidinVermont Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
98. A major screwup by whomever kill thes Americans
They just opened an open warrant on their asses. Stupid move on the terrorists that decided to start a war they will lose.
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