A change needs to come - By Avigail Abarbanel

[ProgressiveMuslim]

Date: 28 / 05 / 2008 Time: 14:50

(snip)

Growing up as an Israeli provided me with an intimate understanding of Israeli-Jewish psychology. Ever since I can remember, we in Israel were told that Jews have nowhere else to go because the world didn't like Jews. Seventeen years ago, when my former husband and I were about to migrate to Australia, most of the people we knew were dismayed by our decision. I was told by many that I was making a big mistake. My father's heart surgeon for example, was in complete shock when he heard our news. He took me aside and said that he did not understand how I could leave; that he would never be prepared to live anywhere where there might be even one anti-Semite alive. Like many others he believed that Jews can only safely live in Israel.

This idea that Israel is the only safe place for Jews is critical to understanding the roots of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, and Israel's policies and perspective in the present. The majority of Jewish people do not trust non-Jews as life-long compatriots. Experience and cultural narrative have been telling them that since antiquity, rulers and governments as well as populations have become hostile to Jews without warning. This means that no matter how long Jews have lived anywhere, no matter how unobtrusive and well integrated they have been, or how much they contributed to their society, things could turn against them overnight.

With a history of European persecutions, pogroms, discriminatory laws, expulsions, medieval and modern ghettos and a systematic plan of total annihilation in what was considered an enlightened European country, it's hard to blame people for feeling insecure.

Israel was not born in 1948 or because of the Holocaust. Its origins are with Zionism, the Jewish national movement, which was born in the late 19th century. Zionism was to put an end to the precarious situation of European Jews by creating an exclusively Jewish state. The logic was simple: if Jews could not trust that they could ever be unconditionally welcome or safe in the countries in which they lived, they needed a state of their own. This means a state governed by Jews only, and that was largely free of non-Jewish people. The location of the "Jewish national home" was debated at first but eventually the entire Zionist movement agreed on Palestine because of the spiritual meaning it had for Jewish people. The fact that Palestine was populated was known, and openly recognized by the leaders of the Zionist movement. The mainstream view was that it was unfortunate, but that the plan to create a national home for the Jewish people could not be abandoned, because the Jews were in dire need.

Zionists have always believed that Jewish fear justifies ethnic cleansing. Ideas about transferring the existing non-Jewish population of Palestine -- the Palestinians -- elsewhere to make room for an exclusively Jewish state existed long before 1948. The word "transfer" entered modern Hebrew, as a euphemism for ethnic cleansing, an idea or a plan to move the Palestinian population en masse elsewhere, as far away as possible from the borders of Israel.

The ethnic cleansing of Palestine started in 1948 behind the smokescreen of war, but it was not completed. It is not only continuing today but Israeli scholars like Ilan Pappe believe that it is escalating. Zionist ideology is directly responsible for the charter of present day Israel. Attempting to understand the dynamic of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict or to analyze Israel's behavior without understanding this charter is bound to be flawed, and to lead to more confusion and misunderstanding.

Since the foundational belief is that Jewish people can only be safe in an exclusively Jewish state, Israel's charter is simple. Israel is required to maintain itself as a safe haven for all Jewish people. Based on their past experience and national and religious narratives Jewish people deeply believe that it's only a matter of time before the tide once again turns against them. When (and not "if") this happens, the state of Israel will be there to take them all in and save them. I am using "they" instead of "we" because I have personally abandoned this narrative, and have chosen not to live my life in its shadow. This is seen by many Israelis as naive or even insane. But I decided to take my chances in the wider world because I do not believe that I can live a full life and make a contribution in the world if I live in a permanent state of fear.

The development of the state of Israel and Israel's behavior in the region have always been consistent with its charter. Israel sees that it would need as much land and natural resources as possible (such as water, which is scarce in the region), in order to accommodate the 13 millions Jews who are expected to flock to it from around the world, "when" a new era of Jewish persecution begins. Israel would have to have enough housing, infrastructure and a functional economy. It would have to be a modern state in which Western Jews accustomed to technology, capitalism and affluence can feel comfortable. There is nothing inconsistent or strange in what Israel is doing to the Palestinians if you understand this charter. It surprises me that this is never discussed openly in any political analysis that I see.

At the heart of this conflict is not economics, oil, "war on terror," religion or various regional loyalties. Rather it is an age-old psychology of persecution and survival to which all other considerations are subservient. Israel's loyalties are utilitarian. There is no great love there for any other peoples or countries. Israelis always think in terms of what is good for the Jews and what isn't, and they watch the world carefully from within this prism. Israeli children learn to see life from this point of view from a very young age. I was the same when I was growing up.

Read on...
http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=29552

[ProgressiveMuslim]

1. I'd love to read a progressive zionist response to this! nt

[pelsar]

3. to believe it...requires a lack of knowledge

the "progressive" as seen here, or perhaps the anarchist will most likely agree with the article....but that would be because facts and history would not bother them

this one sentence in the article stood out:
Zionists have always believed that Jewish fear justifies ethnic cleansing

since to write such a thing, is either out of ignorance, or critical for their belief system a pillar if you will. Zionism was a multifaceted movement that involved communism, socialism, etc with all of their progressive aspects......but these are obvious to even the most basic student of the conflict.


____

other parts of the article are very true, however, most of them would fit other cultural groups as well.... including the Palestinians

___

btw never did thank you for the link you used.
http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/timeline.php?option=listAllEvents

(has some interesting bits of info that i had no idea of....)

[azurnoir]

5. What was/is the goal of Zionism and why?

To not believe it requires denial, that the Holocaust left an indelible mark on the conciseness of Jews who lived through it and that the feeling of constant danger is always present there for is undeniable, that those feeling have been transfered down to younger generations is also undeniable.

Once again what does "never again" mean or are you trying to claim that those two words have no application here.

However, your denial does not surprise me in the least, in fact it was anticipated as was another posters justification.

[notfullofit]

6. Never Again

Professor Yehuda Elkana wrote (Ha'aretz) that two very important lessons are to be learned from the Holocaust. That it "should never happen again" and that "it should never happen again to us."

A "Zionist Ethos" had to be created that even while Jews abhorred violence the sometimes use of force had to become acceptable as part of the national psyche in order to form an army and provide for the self defense of the Jewish nation. Jews had to become emancipated from their past. Israel was reborn out of Jewish disappointment for not being accepted in the national cultures of countries where Jews often lived longer than the prevailing and dominant culture of the newly emergent nation-states. Jews tried to assimilate but the local cultures rejected them and continued to treat them like foreigners.

This French post-revolutionary world of "Enlightenment" was full of distortions. The dream of the century was progress; liberty, equality and fraternity - for all but the Jews.

New post revolutionary freedoms merely gave rise to those inclinations in man which were not yet benevolent. The old ways were full of prejudice and xenophobia but were restrained by authoritarian regimes. The new norm was unbridled freedom which unleashed these passions and prejudices and antisemitism erupted with an intense fury and was shared by the political left and political right.

We learn from the diaries of Theodore herzl (1880s Europe) as related here by Anita Shapira (Dean of Tel Aviv University),

"What distressed the Jews most deeply were not events in the political sphere (although, from a long-term perspective, these were the most dangerous) but, rather, the trivial, direct incidents of everyday life, like the accidental encounter with abusive language, drunken derisive laughter, and discriminatory behavior on the street..." From Shapira, "Land and Power", Stanford University Press (99)
In 1881 there was a serious of horrible pogroms (which were massacres carried out by the masses) in many cities and towns in Russia which resulted in the slaughter of many Jews and the worst anti-Jewish massacre since the slaughter of Jews in Poland in 1648 to 1649.

The word Pogrom is a Russian word meaning massacre. It passed from Russian into the English language at about the late 1800s with specialized meaning of massacre of Jews....

One sees an unleashing of anti-Jewish invective and hate on the internet in this century which is also particularly disturbing as a microcosm of feelings which has not been this visible since the 1930s.

http://pnews.org/ArT/ViC/ReST.shtml

[azurnoir]

7. Judging from your answer you assume too much

I am well aware of the meaning pogrom and what happened primarily in eastern Europe, and I am well aware of the "traditional" Easter celebrations in Russia subtitled "lets go kill us some Jews". That Zionism abhors violence except as self defense is true, however in this case the violence and what is called ethnic cleansing is in the name of self defense, now as to "never again" I was referring to a specific discussion some months back with the poster I was replying to in which we had an albeit rare moment of agreement as to the meaning of "never again" that being "never again will we go like sheep to the slaughter".

As for antiJewish invectives on the net it would depend on what you mean are you conflating antiJewish with antiIsraeli or antIsreali government? Undoubtedly there is some cross over but that is not always the case or here on DU even the majority of cases. Now as to visibility I am a believer in what was said by Justice Louis Brandeis, "sunlight is the best disinfectant", and IMHO bigotry is much like fungus.

[pelsar]

8. denial of what?

However, your denial does not surprise me


and please be VERY specific...try to use links to backup what i'm actually denying...(this should be interesting...)
__________

the goal of zionism is a jewish homeland....dont know where in the definition of that is ethnic cleansing of non jews (if you believe that, which i think you do, i guess zionism is a massive failure in your eyes since my non jewish neighbors seem to be quite a bit a part of israel....and dont seem to be going anywhere, and prefer it over the realistic alternatives-but what do they know, they're only muslim israelis with ancestry that goes back no more than a hundred years)


and the "never again"....yes a major part is the were not going to stand still and let ourselves be killed, as per the holocaust and countless progroms...again, nothing in that about ethnic cleansing...its a definition of self defense...and a declaration of the "new jew"

[azurnoir]

11. I do not have to use links

I think you deny Ms Abarbanel's whole premise, that Israel is bent on holding on to most if not all of the West Bank, in part (that is me) because there could or inevitably will be another "Holocaust" and Jews still living in "exile" will have a place to go. and I also think that the other part involves water and arable land resources, both of which are scarce in that part of the world.

No there is nothing about in the words "never again" about ethnic cleaning, that part comes in with how those two words are interpreted

and the "never again"....yes it major part is the were not going to stand still and let ourselves be killed

Do you believe that Hamas and Fatah mean what they say in their charters?
Do you believe that any Israeli Jew will ever be entirely safe with "uncontrolled" Palestinians on the borders, not to mention living amongst you?
What is the answer to "complete" security, for you?
Do you deny that polls show 1/2 of Israeli Jews want Israeli Arabs expelled, albeit the government has not made any moves to do so or expressed support for such an ides, something IMHO that could possibly change depending on the outcome of the next elections.

[pelsar]

14. the charters....and polls..

no i dont believe the charters...they were all made at a certain point of time when things were much simpler, like in establishing a set of principles. Real politics are a lot muddier.....

will any israeli be safe with Palestinians on "the border"...as much as they are safe with egyptians on the border or jordanians or lebanese or syrians..at one point in time they threatened israel, today they dont...same goes for the Palestinians. Today they shoot from gaza, in a few years a few weeks, they might decide its not in their interest to do so (as egypt, jordan and syria decided)

and OMG living amongst us?...do you mean like today? (wait let me peak out my window, i think i heard an arab sneaking around, probably come to kidnap my kids to drink their blood....). That doesnt even deserve an answer.....

and the polls about 1/2 of the israeli jews want arabs expelled-actually its about encouraging emigration-(i know its your definition again)?....having little knowledge of the poll, it wouldnt surprise me..just as most israeli arabs dont want the jews here..or for that matter as i understand it most american whites dont want the spanish speaking latinos in the states...or according to newsweek., with their 'racial resentment index" the states is a racial divide country (is that true?)...and then there is reality. The muslim/druze/christian israelis are part of the country....no one is going to be expelling them because of their religion, skin color etc.
__

security to me is a working democracy where the neighboring states have warm diplomatic relations with israel...until that time comes and the rhetoric about removing israel (and related types of info), via the official govt press/universities/TV, etc continues we have to assume our presence is not accepted and given the chance they will do something about it.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

10. Very interesting. My perception is very different.

At the Israeli 60th b-day party in Philly, the hundreds who paraded don't just see Israel as a Jewish accomplishment. You're kidding yourself if you think people don't view Israel as their "just in case" place.

One woman actually stood shouting at us -- a group made up most of people born in Palestine -- to "go back to Mexico."

Who are the interlopers? LOL!!! Do American Jews live with that kind of of disconnect? Apparently some do.

[pelsar]

15. the perception is the same...

that they see israel as their "just in case" place...but from the perception to the reality of actually moving there is a very very very large gap.

and the "go back to mexico"...americans were never very good with geography, nor history (I assume you didnt take offense and were just "amused" at the ignorence....)

[Vegasaurus]

2. True: the existence of Israel has nothing to do with oil or war on terror

It is a national homeland for the Jews.

There are ethnic enclaves and countries all over the world.

Of all the Muslim countries, how many of them even allow non-Muslims to live there?

Certainly no Jews can live there.

Are people as upset about that ethnic segregation?

Of course not.

There is one country for Jews on earth.

It is time people just realized that and moved on.

Israel isn't going away, no matter how much the haters will wish it would, criticize, place sanctions or grievances against it, try to bomb it away, or otherwise try to annihilate the country.

People will just have to come to terms with a Jewish country, and the fact that people get so upset about it is precisely the reason it is necessary to have one.

If people don't like ethnically national countries, there are plenty of other places to start. All over the world, in fact.

[azurnoir]

4. This is what I have suspected

but not dared to write, that reason behind Israels continued land acquisition and refusal to pay much more than lip service to negotiations in the West Bank are because as was pointed out to me long ago the world population of Palestinians and Jews are near equal and as Ms Abarbanel puts it Israel anticipates the day when all of the worlds Jews must live there so there must be room.

The development of the state of Israel and Israel's behavior in the region have always been consistent with its charter. Israel sees that it would need as much land and natural resources as possible (such as water, which is scarce in the region), in order to accommodate the 13 millions Jews who are expected to flock to it from around the world, "when" a new era of Jewish persecution begins. Israel would have to have enough housing, infrastructure and a functional economy. It would have to be a modern state in which Western Jews accustomed to technology, capitalism and affluence can feel comfortable. There is nothing inconsistent or strange in what Israel is doing to the Palestinians if you understand this charter. It surprises me that this is never discussed openly in any political analysis that I see.

unfortunately and in particular to the US this is a bit of a slap in face, and leads to questions that always invoke a hysterical "antisemitism" as a response, and no not all or even most American Jews feel this way, but some undoubtedly do. The response to a thread about could "it" happen here proved that however what was lacking as a response was yes it could happen in America,in fact it has happened to Japanese Americans in WW2 for instance and right now it could happen but not to Jews in this case it would be Arab Americans, another terror attack would be all it would take.

As for the last sentence in the excerpt I cited, I do not understand the surprise at no open discussion on the subject, if there was that too would be called antisemetic because if this "secret" became widely accepted it could also become a sort of "self fulfilling prophecy of doom", with one thing "justifying" the other.

There are many other questions here-such as if the tide so globally turns against Jews what good would having an economy based in no small part on trade with other nations do? Is it wise to put the majority of the worlds Jews in one small place, after if as claimed annihilation of Jews is desired, doesn't that make it all the more easy?

[pelsar]

9. because its a joke....

or perhaps serious for the conspiracy nuts.....

preparing to accommodate 13 million jews?...i guess there must be some infrastructure somewhere...where should i look for it? and for sure we have to get rid of the arabs...13 million is quite a lot and they will need lots of room, perhaps we should go back to Lebanon?

if you would like to feed your theories look up: Barry Chamish

[azurnoir]

12. 13 million counting the the

approx 5.8 million Jews that live in Israel, Jerusalem, and the West Bank, so we're talking about another 7.2 million not 13 million. Another 5.2 million live in the US so that leaves 2 million elsewhere, it could be done, did not say it would be easy, especially, if one excludes the US population which is truly the least likely place for widespread antisemetism of that sort at present. Muslims, Arabs in general, and Mexicans are in far more danger here.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html

[Vegasaurus]

13. Do you like to just make things up?

They make you sound so silly.

Where would another 7.2 million people go? Israel is the size of New Jersey.

"It could be done"?

What does this mean?

[azurnoir]

16. Israel and the West Bank

And as far as silly now you claim not all Jews can live in Israel?

It is a national homeland for the Jews.

There are ethnic enclaves and countries all over the world.


Certainly no Jews can live there.

There is one country for Jews on earth.

It is time people just realized that and moved on.

Israel isn't going away, no matter how much the haters will wish it would, criticize, place sanctions or grievances against it, try to bomb it away, or otherwise try to annihilate the country.

People will just have to come to terms with a Jewish country, and the fact that people get so upset about it is precisely the reason it is necessary to have one.

So now it's the homeland only for some Jews who gets to pick which ones? First come first serve or what?

[Vegasaurus]

17. I never claimed ALL Jews could live in Israel

but that it is a national homeland for Jews.

Jews who want to live there can.

If you were a Jew and wanted to live there, you could.

There is no threat of over seven million Jews descending on Israel, but currently, there is place for any who choose to emigrate there.

If for some reason, 13 million Jews needed to live there, I suppose they would have to figure out where to put all those people.

Since it isn't even in the realm of possibility, I have no idea what you are talking about.

You have the strangest and most convoluted debating style of anyone on this board.

[notfullofit]

18. Maybe one of

Israel's neighbors has an empty piece of desert they are not using and would be willing to donate it to accomodate the overflow, (being good neighbors and all).

[azurnoir]

19. Perhaps you did not bother to read the OP

or something, how is what I said strange or convoluted? The OP was about Israel being a "fall back" for all Jews, not just some as you seem to state.

[azurnoir]

20. And oh yeah IF I was?

No according to Judaic law I am not a Jew because I have only one Jewish parent and it is my father.

[Shaktimaan]

21. So you aren't officially Jewish...

yet you still qualify for fast-tracked citizenship to Israel, should you choose to make Aliyah.
Is that your point? That you qualify for Aliyah despite not being halakhically Jewish?

[azurnoir]

22. Do you ever read the whole thread

if you did then you wouldn't have to ask my point.

[Shaktimaan]

23. clearly not.

I read the thread. But the point of that post remained unclear to me...
So I asked you about it.

Since my guess doesn't seem to be correct and a re-read of your cryptic post hasn't yet revealed anything to me, maybe you can enlighten me as to your point. Or I guess you can just toss off some more 'tude if you'd rather.