Barghouthi calls on PA to suspend negotiations until settlement construction stops

[ProgressiveMuslim]

Date: 07 / 05 / 2008 Time: 11:34


Mustafa Barghouthi

Ramallah – Ma'an – Mustafa Barghouthi, the former Palestinian Minister of Information and the head of the Palestinian National Initiative, called on the Palestinian Authority on Wednesday to suspend negotiations with Israel in order to force a halt to the construction of illegal settlements.

Barghouthi said that it is unanimously agreed, at both the Palestinian and international levels, that Israel's ongoing construction of settlements on stolen Palestinian land make a peace agreement impossible.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas formally re-launched negotiations at a conference in the United States last November. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert announced a freeze on settlement construction at that time. By March of this year, the Israeli group Peace Now, which monitors settlements, said the freeze had collapsed, with hundreds of new housing units built in settlements.

Barghouthi said the Palestinian Authority should stop negotiations with Israel, and make the resumption of negotiations conditional on a freeze on settlement activity. He also called for international monitoring of such a freeze.

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=29128

[ProgressiveMuslim]

1. I wishe he would call for a general strike. That talks go on is beyond absurd. nt

[notfullofit]

2. You don't approve of the peace talks?

How else can peace come about?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

3. These aren't peace accords. These are stall tactics that waste time

so the settlement machine can gobble up more land.

[notfullofit]

4. Thank you for the clarification. nt

[The Magistrate]

5. Now There Is A Proposal For Some Truely Rum Fun, Ma'am

A recipe for further fragmentation and chaos to bedevil the people and polity of Arab Palestine, wrought, as usual, in the name of making some grand symbolic gesture rather than a well-considered action that might improve the situation in some measure.

The action you propose would not discommode Israel, or even the settlement construction, in the slightest. It would pit a great many Arab Palestinians against their livelihoods, and so against one another as whoever called the stoppage had to move to enforce it. Men who work on the construction, the general run of shop-keepers and agriculturists, and the employees and families dependent on them, would be disadvantaged in a degree they could not readily, or long, tolerate. Violence would be required to suppress their need to go to work, and that from the start. There would be beatings and killings in quantity, committed by Arab Palestinians against other Arab Palestinians. Quite a pretty spectacle all around, and for an expected gain of absolute nil. A person who wished to bring serious harm to the people of Arab Palestine could hardly concoct a better course for them to take than this.

It is instructive to look into the history of attitudes towards strikes in the early period of Socialism in the nineteenth century. There was a great schism between those who felt the purpose of strikes was preparation for revolution, and those who felt the purpose of strikes was to actually better the lot of workers. The former tendency viewed bloody failure of strikes as a good thing, because it promoted radicalism and resolve to violence among the defeated laborers, and viewed the success of a strike in gaining better wages and conditions as a failure, since it left people more contented and hence less likely to move in rebellion against the state. The latter tendency viewed the bloody failure of strikes as a bad thing, not only increasing the misery of the defeated laborers but discrediting the leadership and ideas that drew them into the failed battle, and viewed the success of a strike in gaining better wages and conditions as a good thing in itself, since it reduced somewhat human misery, and showed people they could better their circumstances by united action. As is often the case, the question in the old coal fields Union song, "Which side are you on?" is an apt one.

[Vegasaurus]

6. "Gain of nil" is not a good thing

since the Palestinians need to make a call to action that brings them something positive, not more misery.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

7. Don't get your ascot in a wad...

My point is for Barghouti to call for a massive demonstration of DISGUST with the PA. A one-day general strike, a frequent occurrence during the first intifadah, would do just that.

[azurnoir]

8. Agreed a gerneral would be more productive

calling off the so called Peace Talks would be the best Independence Day gift the Palestinians could give to Israel. Israel has made it it clear by its actions that it has no intention of honoring any peace talks except in the most disingenuous, superficial ways possible; case in point the supposed removal of roadblocks.
If the Palestinians call off these talks Israel is free of the unwanted push to negotiate in such a way that it can and will point the finger at the PA, saying it is their fault without ever mentioning why.

[The Magistrate]

9. Is That, Ma'am, Anything Like Getting One's Panties In A Twist?

Sounds uncomfortable, anyway, whatever you might have been trying to signify by the noise....

So what you want is for Mr. Barghouti to test the power of his faction against that of Mr. Abbas, in a sort of one-day trial run cum census for a possible up-coming coup? And you expect this to benefit the people of Arab Palestine how?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

10. Exactly, but I surmised that for a gentelman like yourself, it would be a more appropriate image!

I think a clear message to Abbas -- indicating that the populace does not support these talks, which in the face of ongoing Israeli settlement expansion, are an utter farce -- is in order.

---------------------
So, Magistrate, am I your new plaything? Surely my writing is not incomprehensible. Do all Palestinian politics amuse your esteemed self, or is it just my poor attempt at representing some of those view on this board?

I don't mind a respectful exchange of views, but I feel inclined to share with you my perception that your posts are patronizing in the extreme. If you think I'm stupid, please do me the curtesy of ignoring me. If not, please refrain from the condescension; it inhibits genuine discussion.

[The Magistrate]

13. Do You Imagine, Ma'am, Mr. Abbas To Be Without Any Sense Of The People Who Support Him In Office?

The course you suggest can only result in some degree of destabilization. Increased chaos can bring no benefit to anyone but 'hard men' in radical outfits.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

18. Magistrate, I believe the evidence shows that Abbas feels accountable

primarily to the US and only secondarily to the people of Palestine. I think his primary objective, at this piont in time, is to protect his power base, and do what's necessary to stay in charge of a large bureaucracy. I don't think he's had the best interests of the nation at the forefront for awhile.

It's not Hamas or Jihad calling for a cessation of talks -- it's not Marwan Barghouti calling for a cessation.

This is Moustapha Barghouti. Indepenent. Highly intelligent. Well respected. MODERATE. Independent head of secular, pro-democracy party.

Let me ask you, sir, do you actually see the current course as going anywhere? Have you no concern about the ongoing settlment expansion?

[The Magistrate]

23. You May See Nearby In This Forum, Ma'am

Several denunciations of mine of the expansion of settlements, and even an extended exchange pressing their illegality in toto with a member of 'Team Israel", which is far from our first on the subject.

It is also my belief that the current course from both sides is going nowhere, or nowhere good anyway, and has been doing so for many, many years. The key reason for this is, in my view, the continued exaltation of 'struggle' on the side of Arab Palestine. Both sides use the bad behavior of the other to prop up and conceal their own, but as that of Arab Palestine cannot have material effect sufficient to force a change in either Israel's circumstances or policies, while that of Israel certainly has the capability to force a change in the circumstances of Arab Palestine, the need of Arab Palestine to remove its end of this mutual prop from the situation is far more pressing.

Your charge against Mr. Abbas does not much impress me. No one in charge of Arab Palestine is ever going to secure for that people any degree of peace or satisfaction of their legitimate aspirations, without engaging co-operatively with Israel and the United States. So long as persons doing this in any measure are denounced as collaborators and traitors, the thing will cripple on its present form.

[azurnoir]

11. No one said any thing about a coup

there will be quite possibly elections though which could benifit the people of Palestine.
What if any benefit to these same people are the current peace talks, Israel continues unabated in building settlements and to be polite plays games with promises like removing roadblocks. I do not even give the current peace initiatives credit as a stall tactic, they are a mere walk through, a PR campaign aimed at keeping up appearances and playing down negative PR. Mr Bush will be a memory in 8 months and then what, will his successor also be "dedicated" to ME peace?

[The Magistrate]

12. Things Pushed In The Manner Suggested Above, Ma'am

Generally end in appeal to the gun.

Our views of the present talks do not differ in any mentionable degree, save that it seems to me always at least a little better to have talks going on than to not have them going on. Surely, if something is of little or no importance, it cannot be worth much upset over, or effort to halt it, either.

[azurnoir]

14. You could be right

in the appeal to the gun, but the West Bank is quite a different world now than it was during the first Intifada and neither a general strike even for one day and certainly not a coup would happen without the IDF becoming involved.
As to calling off the talks I do not support that either as I posted above, in fact I was aghast when Abbas briefly called them off in March for the same reasons as I am now.

[The Magistrate]

15. True Enough, Ma'am, And Just More Reasons Why This 'Strugglicious' Gesture Is A Poor Idea

The Israelis would certainly move to break such a strike, one way or another, and again, the result would be simply more chaos and harm to Arab Palestinians.

Fighting always involves calculation of whether the game is worth candle, and that needs to be done coldly and rationally as possible. What you are likely to suffer must be weighed against what you stand to gain, and if the latter does not outweigh the former, the fight should not be pitched or pressed..

[azurnoir]

16. Strugglicious?

I have to remember that one

[notfullofit]

17. Delicious word!

[ProgressiveMuslim]

20. Magistrate? Are you familiar with the the first intifadah at all, Sir?

Israel never once "moved" to break any strike.

[The Magistrate]

22. What An Odd Question, Ma'am, And Even Odder Statement

News accounts at the time were rife with descriptions of the violent Israeli response to the general strike of shop-keepers, and strike by employees of the civil services and police, which included signature pieces such as a shopkeeper being locked in his shuttered shop by soldiers who then filled the place with pepper gas. Soldiers crow-barred off shutters, dragged men to their shops and deposited them inside, in bloodied state. Soldiers confiscated keys to prevent closure. It went on through most of the first half of 1988. It struck me at the time as a pretty poor way to carry on, though the reason for it was obvious enough: the totality of the strike represented development of an alternate structure of authority, something people in charge anywhere tend to frown on and desire to prevent getting root. The success of the thing can only be described as a mixed blessing from the point of view of Arab Palestinians, of course, since from it dates a tremendous constriction of Arab Palestinian economic activity, which has left many impoverished who were not when the thing began, and might not be today had it never occurred. As you have not addressed the means by which the strikes were enforced by militants, we can leave that to another time, save for noting that such enforcement has been a local feature of such actions dating back at the least to the general strike featured in the Arab Revolt period of the mid 1930s.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

25. I lived in Ramallah then.

IDF violence against strikers was hardly a common feature.

Nor was violent enforcement of the strike.

You're right though, it surely was about asserting authority -- which is exactly what the electorate needs to demonstrate.

[The Magistrate]

26. So It Is Your Testimony, Ma'am, That The Israeli Army Behaved Itself Pretty Well?

Personal observation can be a tricky thing. The travels of my adventurous youth included some time in San Salvador in the seventies: saw children with bellies distended by malnutrition, but never heard a gun-shot, never saw a corpse. If you asked me, the place was completely peaceable...do remember one local giving me quite the stare hearing me say that, though....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

28. There was plenty of IDF harrassment and humiliation -- that was the daily norm before Oslo.

But by and large, the soliders didn't smash battering rams through closed shops. I wasn't then, and am not now, any fan of the occupation, or the way the IDF conducts itself.

I view the tactics of the first intifadah, coordinated strikes, boycotts, and the growing of grass-roots, community-based institutions, as a period of great success.

I'm sure you have 100 reasons why I am foolish for thinking so. There are plenty of others here, including Pelsar, who would agree.

[The Magistrate]

29. A Great Success, Ma'am, Has Fruits Of Great Benefit To Show For Its Pains

Where are these in the present situation of the people of Arab Palestine?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

30. It was pretty succesful, until the backdoor negotiations began.

If I were an Israeli leader, I would have been frightened to deal with the Unified Leadership also.

Live and learn.

Good thing Palestinians are a patient people.

Civil strife is difficult indeed.

[The Magistrate]

31. Successful At What, Ma'am?

Did the people of Arab Palestine become safer, become more prosperous, become more free to think and do as they please, in consequence of that outbreak?

Or were you under the impression the thing was on a track to compel the physical withdrawl of Israeli forces and settlers from the territories over-run in '67, until the struggling people were 'stabbed in the back' by Arafat and the P.L.O.?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

34. They learned a lot

That they could join together, be successful, build democratic institutions and work together for the justice they deserve.

Things did fall apart when Araft and the gang came to town. People were hopeful and exhausted after years of struggling. It was great to the see IDF go. But as we saw, Arafat's commitment was to himself and his patronage network. He did not have the tools to build a nation.

Few nations have been fortunate to have nation builders at the helm during their founding -- the US and Israel are two lucky examples. That, plus the world's single superpower working against you at every turn, makes the struggle very difficult indeed.

These are without a doubt dark days for Palestine. But I do have hope that people will once again unite for the cause of national liberation. One thing is for sure, they will never meekly comply with Israeli tyranny.

Criticize them all you want. Still being alive and holding the banner after 60 years is itself a small victory. The larger victory of independence and self-determination is yet to be achieved.

[The Magistrate]

35. Excellent Use Of The "Quick Edit" Trick, Ma'am: Well Played Indeed....

And painful though it is to remain unmoved by the scrumptiously strugglitious phrasings that have now appeared above my own original reply, that must remain my lot.

That people are 'still alive and holding the banner after 60 years' is no victory, whether great or small, but rather an illustration of the futility of doing the same thing over and over again yet expecting a different result at each new repetition of the exercise. The certainty 'they will never meekly comply with Israeli tyranny' is boiler-plate of the lowest obtainable grade, while stating that 'the larger victory of independence and self-determination is yet to be achieved' is true enough, though probably not in the soul-stirring sense you may have meant, for not only has it not yet been achieved, it is certainly not going to be achieved so long as the exaltation of 'struggle' continues to be a dominant element of discourse in Arab Palestinian society.

Arafat is hardly any favorite of mine, but he held and maintained the place of the personification of Arab Palestinian political leadership and aspirations for several decades, and could not have done this unless something about him struck a genuine spark in the mass of that people. To pretend at this late date that was somehow false to fact, and that he was actually widely despised as a self-interested betrayer of the nation among the mass of Arab Palestinian people simply will not do. If, as you say, 'he did not have the tools to build a nation', the fault is hardly his alone.

The fact remains that 'struggle' simply has not worked as a guiding principle for action to benefit the people of Arab Palestine. the tale of the map, from the Peel Commission down to the present day, makes this abundantly clear.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

36. I edited the above.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

37. Beyond what I posted, I'd be happy to direct you to some further reading. nt

[The Magistrate]

38. By All Means, Ma'am

My ignorance is legend, and whatever small amelioration of it you could wreak will be a tremendous, and wholly undeserved favor.

"I'm going home now. Someone bring me some frogs and some bourbon."

[ProgressiveMuslim]

39. I'd be happy to.

Regarding what specific issues are you interested in the Palestinian perspective?

[Vegasaurus]

40. And the "struggle" isn't ever going to give the Palestinians a state

sooner or later, they ought to wise up to that fact.

The "struggle" has taken from them, not given them more.

Their lives are more miserable, not less.

Perhaps it really is time to ask themselves if doing the same thing over and over again and getting worse results is the right tactic.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

32. self-delete. nt

[The Magistrate]

33. Perhaps This Was Meant To Go Somewhere Else, Ma'am?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

19. Utter nonsense. I am not advocating a revolution or a coup.

I am suggesting a tactic that would remind America's quisling who he really represents.

Again, one-day general strikes were a common occurrence during the first intifadah.

I think the primary goal in Palestine right now needs to be reconciliation among parties, and clear sense of the national pulse. Phoney talks designed to waste time, while US dollars are funnelled in for Abbas' party use only help no one (well, they help the settlement and occupation machine, but they certainly help no one in Palestine.

We won't see democratic elections in palestine again for some time.

I am suggesting a nonviolent protest of the current policy.

[The Magistrate]

24. You May Well Think You Are Not, Ma'am

But it is well to look past any immediate actions to consequences likely to flow from them, and beyond one's own perceptions of what something means to how it is likely to strike others, before undertaking, or even proposing seriously, to do a thing.

The need of Arab Palestine is a governing authority with an effective monopoly on the use of violence for political aims, that is resolved to cease violence against the state of Israel, and can enforce its word in this regard when it gives this on paper near a gaudy seal. Desirable though it would be for this to come about in a peaceable manner, experience suggests hope that it will is wishful thinking of the foulest sort, and that such outcomes as that almost always obtain from a trial of force in which one faction bodily defeats the rest.

[Vegasaurus]

27. There sure won't be any peace until

the warring factions can find some common ground amongst themselves.

Even if Fatah seriously wanted to make peace gestures, Hamas won't permit peace with Israel.

Talking about settlement of issues right now is just pretend.

Hamas needs to get on board with Fatah, recognize Israel and stop their violence and desire to take back Israel.

Then and only then is there a possibility of peace.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

21. Any comments on the OP?