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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:47 PM
Original message
A Terror Tour of Israel
JERUSALEMSpending a week on a tour of terror is not particularly relaxing. After a week listening to briefings on terrorism, our mood had darkened. As we walked past the cafes of Jerusalem, we found ourselves staring suspiciously at large backpacks and at people with their hands in their pockets.

A simple stroll through Jerusalem became a constant reminder of terrorist attacks over the years: There's the intersection of King George Street and Jaffa Streetjust a few blocks from our hotelwhere, on Aug. 19, 2001, a suicide bomber entered a crowded Sbarro restaurant, setting off an explosion that killed 15 and wounded 130. Even small cafes now employ a security guard to check bags and watch for suspicious behavior.

As we walked through the streets of Jerusalem on our final day, we wondered why Israel had been so quiet over the last year. This question went to the very heart of our counterterrorism tour: the notion that Israel has somehow figured out how to win, or at least hold at bay, the "war on terror." Over the course of the week, we had heard many explanations for the lull in attacks: the wall, the layers of security that protect key sites, and the legal system, which allows Israel to quickly lock up suspected terrorists.

But Roni Shaked, a former commander in Israel's Shin Bet, gave us what he felt was the real explanation behind Israel's success. "The main, main reason why it's quiet, I think, it's just because of the Israeli security service," Shaked had told us on the first day of the tour. "Because during those years, we understood how to fight against the new kind of terrorism, how to fight against the new phenomenon of terror, the suicide bombers who are in Israel."

http://www.slate.com/id/2186143/entry/2186148/
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Really interesting article. Thanks for posting. n/t
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hifalutin Donating Member (370 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. I would love to have
visited Jerusalem but sadly too old now to make such a long trip.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. Actually, after thinking about this article . .
. . I think it says something good about Palestinain society - that some Palestinians are actually repelled by the idea of killing innocent civilians and even choose to help Israeli intelligence prevent such killings. With the extreme risks that must carry those folks seem very brave and principled to do such a thing. Things are always more complicated and nuanced than the usual headlines.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. Isn't that the "Intro to the I/P conflict" that all budding US politicians receive?
Too bad they never get the refugee camp tour.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yeah, did you see the mission statement for this bunch?
'To promote cooperation among US and Israeli security specialists and the collaboration between CT Operators in the global War on Terror'


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hifalutin Donating Member (370 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Oh dear,
must one side always be pitted against the other, even here?
After all, the article never once places blame on the Palestinians as the need for the strict security measures, only terrorists.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I'm so sorry for daring to post the group's mission statement...
It's not 'pitting one side against the other', it's their mission statement. I'm not sure why you have such a problem with that, and I doubt you even got The War Against Terror reference...
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hifalutin Donating Member (370 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I'll leave
you to it. Let the next 'moderate' poster bear the brunt of your cynicism.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. You didn't explain what yr problem is with posting the group's mission statement...
There's nothing cynical in asking you that...

You honestly think of yrself as a 'moderate' poster? Moderate folk don't tend to hold views that Israel should ignore international law because the UN is sooooo anti-Israel or that the root of the conflict is all about Jews :)
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Are you familiar with Naomi Klein's work: "The Shock Doctrine?" nt
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. No, but I just went and looked it up and it looks very interesting...
Another book to add to my wish-list :)
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. The trip itself is normally meant for "U.S. police officers and homeland-security professionals."
Interesting, I thought, to get a perspective on it from "real people".
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Great. I'm sure there's a whole bunch of them here in the I/P forum...
Personally I think anything that carries on about the War On Terror like that is a load of nonsensical crap...
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hifalutin Donating Member (370 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Personally I think anything that carries on about the War On Terror like that is a load of nonsensic
Tell that to the parents of the children from Mercaz Harav.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I'll get the parents of the children of Iraq to tell them...
Coz I'm not interested in even trying to justify to folk why the War on Terror propaganda routine is so moronic. Don't you realise the whole War On Terror routine is a fantasy of the Bush administration? A dangerous fantasy where a whole lot of innocent civilians have been killed...
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hifalutin Donating Member (370 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I thought
we were discussing the terrorism in Israel, which is far from fantasy.
How did Iraq get in there?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. You thought wrong...we're talking about the 'War On Terror'...
...and if you don't understand what the people of Iraq have to do with that, then I don't know who's got the time or the energy to explain it to you...

btw, Iraq gets mentioned in many threads in the I/P forum. I hope you don't have a problem with that :)
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hifalutin Donating Member (370 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Come now
let's get real.

This article and thread is about the security of Israel and the reasons behind it.
No-one mentioned the WOT nor Iraq. They are different issues.

Thanks, but I don't need you to take the time or energy explaining Iraq to me.
When I have questions, I'm not too proud to show my ignorance and always ask for answers.

I'm beginning to understand what msmghee is talking about re some of your responses.
If I were not a lady, I would call it shit stirring.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Try reading the website of the organisation...the WOT is right there in their mission statement...
If you don't want to talk about the War On Terror, then you don't have to reply to posts about it. Easy. But I find it a bit offputting when someone goes on about Israeli victims and then has a problem with Iraqi victims of the War On Terror being mentioned. As I said, Iraq gets mentioned in many threads in this forum by many participants, and as far as I'm aware there's no rule against it...

I'm beginning to understand what msmghee is talking about re some of your responses.

And I think it says a hell of a lot that you'd say that when msmcghee's post is the only nasty and abusive post in that thread and the only one that's been deleted...

And disagreement isn't 'shit stirring'. If you want a forum where there's total agreement with yr views then this forum isn't the place for it...
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hifalutin Donating Member (370 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. I don't come here for
agreement but enlightenment.

I read the article, not the website and saw no mention of the WOT.
I don't have the time nor the inclination to visit the websites for all the links posted.

I care about victims everywhere, all innocent victims, especially children, of ALL nations, my heart breaks for them. I am a grandmother and I don't give a damn whose children they are, to me they are just children and therefore precious. It is a great big world out there with more than enough suffering to go around.

But I cannot and will not blame Israel for all the sins of this world.
We all agree, I think, that blame can be laid to both sides.

To my way of thinking, the Palestinians are mostly, I repeat, mostly innocent BUT Hamas gives not one whit about them, hell I would venture to say, I care more about them than they do!!!

Enough said.


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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. That's fair enough...
I read the article, not the website and saw no mention of the WOT.
I don't have the time nor the inclination to visit the websites for all the links posted.


I tend to find clicking on links in articles, especially when they're to the websites of organisations being discussed in the article, to be much less of a time-waster than googling for random things...

I care about victims everywhere, all innocent victims, especially children, of ALL nations, my heart breaks for them. I am a grandmother and I don't give a damn whose children they are, to me they are just children and therefore precious. It is a great big world out there with more than enough suffering to go around.

Couldn't agree more...

But I cannot and will not blame Israel for all the sins of this world.
We all agree, I think, that blame can be laid to both sides.


I'm positive no-one's expecting you to blame Israel for everything in the world. When it comes to blame, there's plenty to go around when it comes to the conflict, and no party is blameless. I think most posters in this forum recognise that, though there are one or two who cling to a belief that the 'side' they're supporting shoulders no responsibility...

To my way of thinking, the Palestinians are mostly, I repeat, mostly innocent BUT Hamas gives not one whit about them, hell I would venture to say, I care more about them than they do!!!

Yes, and I think that's because Hamas is interested in power more than anything else right now. I think both sides should show much more concern for their own people because I don't think the path being taken are ones that do anything but cause more pain for civilians on both sides...







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hifalutin Donating Member (370 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Thank you.
We basically agree (on many) things once you blow away the cobwebs.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Yeah, that happens a fair bit round these parts...
There's only a small handful of posters here who I don't agree with most if not all of the time, but there's usually varying degrees of common ground between most posters here when all the noise and heat gets stripped away. And as you said, I think you and I basically do agree on many things - it's just the path we take to get there meanders a fair bit :)
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hifalutin Donating Member (370 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I went to the
link and read the entire article, fascinating story.

But how sad for Sami to have a price on his head placed by his own people. I hope the elderly gentleman is allowed to live the rest of his days in peace.
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