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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:28 PM
Original message
Across divided Jerusalem, a day of grief

Mourners at nationally televised rites for slain Jewish seminary students weep amid tributes. The killer's family says it's in shock.



JERUSALEM -- On different sides of this divided city Friday, grieving Israelis laid to rest their murdered sons while a Palestinian family grieved over the loss of the young man who killed them.

Both Israelis and Palestinians seemed shocked and anxious as a result of Thursday night's bloodshed and the looming certainty of more to come.

Thousands of mourners attended a memorial for the eight Jewish seminary students killed by a Palestinian gunman. In a ceremony broadcast nationwide, the covered bodies of the students, ages 15 to 26, were laid on stretchers outside the library of the Mercaz Harav yeshiva.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mid...
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is simply awful

"God chooses the most beautiful flowers for his garden," cried Rivka Moriah during the funeral for her 16-year-old son, Avraham David Moses. "God sees Avraham as an angel, and so we should thank him for the 16 years filled with the privilege of raising him."

A 16 year old religious students who was NOT being trained to be a terrorist, compared with what Palestinian religious schools do. Dead.

Then there's this:
"Aboul Magd said only that his cousin died "an honorable death."

An HONORABLE death? To kill Jewish students of religion who had nothing to do with terrorism? A terrorist Palestinian who kills these innocents is HONORABLE?

I agree with Obama's Dr. Rice in what she said the other day:

Hamas is NOT a state, it is a terrorist group and Obama, when president must not and will not have dealings with them.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yes, Hamas is a bunch of murderous terrorists
pretending to run a government.

DO NOT negotiate with terrorists.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I'm hoping this time you'll answer the question I've asked you many times...
DO NOT negotiate with terrorists.

The extremist settlers are terrorists and Israel negotiates with them, so unless you don't think the extremist settlers are terrorists, or you think there's one rule for Israelis and another for the Palestinians, the 'DO NOT negotiate with terrorists' thing doesn't hold water.

Seeing as how yr so totally opposed to a ceasefire being negotiated, what is yr solution for the violence? A continuation of Israeli attacks on Gaza? Apart from the horrific loss of civilian life involved in that, it should be very clear to anyone giving it even the slightest bit of thought that this tactic doesn't work. In fact, it seems to make the violence worse...
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MaryCeleste Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Your conclusion is some what flawed
the current level of pressure against Gaza is not stopping the rockets etc. However, does not mean a higher level of pressure would not. Also no guarantee that it would work either. It is an unknown.

Its interesting to note that Egypt is just as much into isolating Gaza and not helping its residents. They are building a new wall to contain Gazans and to keep them out ot Egypt. So much for PanArabism these days.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. No it's not flawed. The incursion did not stop the rockets or violence...
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 09:46 PM by Violet_Crumble
In fact, it seems to have had the opposite effect. Considering what you describe as a 'current level of pressure' resulted in the deaths of around 55 innocent civilians, including children, I want to know what you think a 'higher level of pressure' would involve. You said in another thread that if the rockets didn't stop, Gaza would be flattened (despite the fact that the Israeli AG has given advice that firing on concentrations of civilians is a war crime), so I'm interested to know what you think Israel should do, and whether you think Israel should abide by international law in doing so?

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MaryCeleste Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. The incursion was also not full force
Its hard to tell how much force/punishment is enough to change a situation. I am far from positive it would change the effective outcome. But I do know that there is potentially more violence that could be done. I am not lobbying for it by any means.

I do believe that if Grads continue to fly that the IDF will roll through Gaza, as far as needed to insure that the Grads do not hit Ashkelon. There will be no other internal political choice. Research exercise for you: Look at the range of the Grad and see just how far that would be.

Did you see the articles about Olmert opening a dialog with Egypt about setting up a conduit out of Gaze for Palestinians so the IDF could deal with Hamas? Pretty scary thinking, and indication that the IDF thinks it could do more.

What they could do is up to the IDF, but there is clearly room for them to escalate.

I think both sides should abide by international law and neither is.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I'm not a fan of force or punishment...
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 10:48 PM by Violet_Crumble
It doesn't achieve anything but force and punishment in return and having it escalate to catastrophic proportions and the only people who end up punished are innocent civilians. That's why the only solution I can see is a ceasefire...

One question yr post raises is who controls the IDF? The Israeli govt or the top guys in the IDF? It's just that the Israeli govt has been given advice that firing on concentrations of civilians is a war crime, and 'rolling through Gaza' and flattening Gaza would both involve that, apart from such a reaction being totally disproportionate to what they are supposed to be responding to...

I think both sides should abide by international law and neither is.

Yeah, I totally agree with you on that....

on edit: oops, I forgot the bit you said about Olmert talking to Egypt about some sort of escape hatch for Palestinian civilians. I'd be interested in seeing some stuff about that, but if it's what I think it is, I'd not blame Palestinians for refusing to take it. Many of them are refugees or descendants of refugees from 1948 and after their experience of fleeing and not being allowed to return to their homes afterwards, I suspect many would stay put out of fear that they'd never be able to return...

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Dick Dastardly Donating Member (741 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. That is ridiculous
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 12:22 AM by Dick Dastardly
DO NOT negotiate with terrorists.

The extremist settlers are terrorists and Israel negotiates with them, so unless you don't think the extremist settlers are terrorists, or you think there's one rule for Israelis and another for the Palestinians, the 'DO NOT negotiate with terrorists' thing doesn't hold water.





Your generalization is not true. Many but not all the settlers are extremist nutters.


Israel doesnt negotiate with the extremist groups that carry out terror, they prosecute them

The extremist settlers are idiots but they dont have control like Hamas. They dont shoot missiles at cities daily. They dont suicide bomb restaurants, schools, markets ect ect. Most are not a cohesive group that plans and carry out attacks like Hamas or IJ so they do their deplorable and sometimes murderous actions it is mostly individuals or small groups of neighbors and they are prosecuted. The settlers attacks are not anything close in degree, number and frequency of groups like Hamas and IJ.
That said I am sure if they were able to obtain rockets that many would have no problem doing what Hamas does but wanting is not the same as doing and Israel and the vast majority of Israeli public doesnt want and wont tolerate them having this sort of weapon like the PA and much of the Palestinian public. Israel and its public dont tolerate violent terror groups and outlaws them unlike Palestinians who give much support to and will elect them. Israel will prosecute and convict them not praise them as heroes when they murder.

So your comparison is completly faulty and holds no water. The terror groups in Israel that do attack are outlawed and prosecuted as are the individual and small non organized groups. They dont praise them as heroes, give support to and elect them to office as Palestinians do.

Here are some of the prosecution and convictions of offences of various degrees. I can give you plenty more if you need more. Can you show me a similar policy of prosecuting terrorists, murderers, violent actions, terror groups like IJ and Hamas or anything like Israel does with its nutters and nutter groups



Settler jailed for 2.5 years over attempt to import weapons
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/873213.html

Jewish settler jailed for life for killing Palestinians
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmafp/is_200609/a...

Jewish 'extremist' settler jailed
An Israeli court has sentenced a Jewish settler to eight years imprisonment for membership of an extremist group.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4075001.st...

World News Briefs; Israeli Settler Held In Killing of Palestinian
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE5D6...


Settler convicted of criminal assault
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=118086754253...


Settler jailed for murdering four Palestinians commits suicide
Asher Weissgan, the West Bank settler who was sentenced to four consecutive life sentences and 12 additional years for the murder of four Palestinian workers and injuring a fifth in the settlement Shilo in August 2005, committed suicide Friday morning in Ayalon Prison.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/804569.html

Pinner Sentenced to Two Years
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/101459


Settler jailed for terrorising Arabs
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_2004120...



Jewish settler convicted of misconduct

The Jerusalem Magistrates Court convicted Yifat Elkobi on Wednesday of causing damage to the home of a Palestinian family in 2001.
Elkob, a resident of the Jewish settlement of Hebron, was found guilty after a documented report by BTselem showed her harassing a Palestinian family. Actions included throwing stones at the homes of Palestinians in Hebron.

Justice Rivka Friedman-Feldman said that Elkobi's actions were severe and thankfully she only damaged windows rather than causing physical harm to persons.
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid...




Can you give me a list of similar prosecutions by the PA on individuals and members of groups like Hamas and IJ who attack Israelis?


On edit btw remember this

Israeli gunman kills four on bus
An Israeli soldier has shot dead four Israeli Arabs on a bus, and was then killed by an angry crowd.
The 19-year-old gunman, believed to have deserted in protest against the Gaza pullout this month, opened fire as the bus passed through Shfaram.

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon called the incident a reprehensible act by a "bloodthirsty terrorist".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4746591.stm
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Only because yr misreading it totally...
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 12:03 AM by Violet_Crumble
Nowhere did I say all settlers are terrorists. I'm talking about the extremist settlers. Would you like me to go back through the archives and point you to posts from a long while back where some other 'supporter' of Israel tried to accuse me of making generalisations because I dared to speak of extremist settlers?

I'm not surprised to see that you'd defend the extremist settlers as not being terrorists. After all they're not Palestinian, are they? The reality is that they attack civilians for a political purpose and that's what terrorism is, not some warped thing where Kahanists and their ilk are defended as not being terrorists coz they're not as prolific or successful as their Palestinian counterparts. Yr lame attempt at an argument leads to the conclusion that the Palestinian groups can't be terrorists as the Tamil Tigers are much more prolific, better organised, and have a much larger body count..

Oh, and the Israeli govt does negotiate with the extremists amongst the Israeli settlers. In fact, they even pander to the Hebron settlers, who are the worst of the bunch...

Here's just one example:

'Last week the Israeli Government moved again to support the settlers in their hard-line faith, when requisition orders were posted on 70 Arab properties and homes along 700 metres of Hebron's Al Haram street.'

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/12/08/1038950271659...

On edit: and seeing as how yr defending the extremist settlers, here's something you should read. I have no respect for anyone who tries to claim they're not terrorists just the same as I have no respect for anyone who tries to claim that Palestinian groups who target civilians aren't terrorists...

'In 1988, Levinger killed a Palestinian shoe-store owner in Hebron. Levinger told the police that he was defending himself from a group of stone throwers. He served thirteen weeks in an Israeli jail for the killing. He told me once, Im not happy when any living creature dies-an Arab, a fly, a donkey.'

http://www.jeffreygoldberg.net/articles/tny/a_reporter_...



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Dick Dastardly Donating Member (741 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. nice try
Nowhere did I defended them nor say the violent extremist settler groups and individuals are not terrorists. I called them terrorists. Its lame and transparent that you attempt by throwing false accusations to hide the fact your argument holds no water and cant as I asked provide evidence that the PA prosecutes individuals and groups involved in violence and terror as I did with Israeli ones . I showed Israel prosecutes the extremist settlers when they commit violence and terror unlike the Palestinians who praise and support them. I showed they outlaw and prosecute members of settler terror groups unlike the Palestinians who praise and support them.

It must bother you that Israel and its citizens dont support or tolerate settler nutters and groups that engage in terror so you can demonize Israel and its refusal to deal with terrorists, so you make up some phony comparison and when challenged you resort to false ad hom attacks.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Excuse me, but yr the one who threw a false accusation at me...
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 04:58 PM by Violet_Crumble
Hello? Accusing me of saying all settlers were extremists? Remember?

And you described the extremist settlers as being idiots, and seemed to be putting up a strenuous argument as to why you don't think they're terrorists. Because if you agree with me that they're terrorists, then why on earth are you arguing with me about it?

Also, why did you ignore the article I posted that showed the Israeli govt not only tolerates the extremist settlers, but supports them? Do you always ignore anything that doesn't support yr agenda?
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Dick Dastardly Donating Member (741 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Thats what it sounded like to me
and at the very least you said all extremist settlers are terrorists which they are not just like all extremest muslims are not terrorists. This is also why I said they were idiots at the very least. I also said that many of the extremist who engaged in violence did so individually or part of a mob mentality not well organized as Hamas and IJ. I ignored nothing you did, I showed you Israel and the public does not support and praise them as heros as Palestinians do, but outlaw, prosecute and jail those who cross the line to violence and terror whether individual or organized terror group. I asked you to show me similar evidence the Palestinians do the same with its violent individuals and groups and you ignored it and gave me an article that does not prove what you say or give me what I asked for. While I dont support what goes on in Hebron you did forget this part.

The move follows an attack on November 15 on an Israeli military patrol guarding Kiryat Arba settlers on their eve-of-sabbath march to and from the shrine. Nine Israeli soldiers and policemen and three armed settlers were shot dead before the three Palestinian gunmen were themselves killed.



Again I ask do you have proof that Palestinians outlaw terror groups and prosecute its violent individuals and terror groups as I showed Israel does. Is Hamas and IJ outlawed, do they prosecute and jail its members who engage in violence and terror?








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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. And it sounded to me like you were defending terrorsts...
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 07:09 PM by Violet_Crumble
Touche...


I ignored nothing you did, I showed you Israel and the public does not support and praise them..

And yet again you totally ignored the article I posted that showed the Israeli govt not only tolerated the extremist settlers, but supported them...


Again I ask do you have proof that Palestinians outlaw terror groups and prosecute its violent individuals and terror groups as I showed Israel does. Is Hamas and IJ outlawed, do they prosecute and jail its members who engage in violence and terror?

No offense, but you seem to have a habit of appearing in threads firing off questions that have nothing to do with what was being discussed. I'll remind you of what I said and if you want to discuss that, go for it. I'm not the slightest bit interested in who imprisons who because it has nothing at all to do with what I was talking about...

The extremist settlers are terrorists and Israel negotiates with them, so unless you don't think the extremist settlers are terrorists, or you think there's one rule for Israelis and another for the Palestinians, the 'DO NOT negotiate with terrorists' thing doesn't hold water.




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Looking4Light Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Settlers as terrorists
Yr lame attempt at an argument leads to the conclusion that the Palestinian groups can't be terrorists as the Tamil Tigers are much more prolific, better organised, and have a much larger body count..

Do I have your permission to use this the next time someone complains about an Israeli "disproportionate response"?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I can't stop you from taking anything I say out of context, so go for it n/t
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MaryCeleste Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Is it a lock that Hama set it up?
First they said no, then yes, then no. Articles out of the ME have blamed Syria as well.
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