Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Oxfam condemns the caging of Gaza

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU
 
Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 01:11 PM
Original message
Oxfam condemns the caging of Gaza
**International agency calls for immediate opening of border**

International agency Oxfam today condemned aid blockade of Gaza that is leaving 1.3 million people are on the brink of a humanitarian crisis. Oxfam called on all actors in the conflict to ensure that urgently needed food, medicine and water supplies are allowed in immediately.

The call comes as Israeli and Palestinian leaders meet today in Egypt. Oxfam is demanding that the reopening of Gaza's borders is placed at the top of the agenda so that essential supplies can get through. If not, the region's economy and basic services such as health and water systems will collapse.

(snip)
According to the UN there are just days until food supplies will run out, fuel is scarce and essential medicines are also critically low. At least 100 trucks a day need to be going into Gaza to meet peoples essential needs, instead just 20 trucks are permitted to go in each day.
(snip)
"Withholding aid as a political weapon is bringing untold suffering to an entire population. This shames the international community. Water equipment has been waiting at Gaza's border for more than three months. These sanctions must cease immediately."

Oxfam is concerned that talks today in Sharm el Sheik will ignore the dire humanitarian needs of people in Gaza. It calls on Prime Minister Olmert to lift the blockade immediately and for Palestinian authorities to ensure that public service workers and humanitarian agencies can distribute urgently needed materials.


From Oxfam
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. There was an NPR interview last week
with a Doctor in Gaza who stated that they were basically out of medicines, Israel allowed albeit grudgingly 20 trucks a day, citing security as usual.

After all slow starvation and death from disease is not genocide is it? :sarcasm:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. maybe the doctor
Edited on Tue Jun-26-07 02:44 PM by pelsar
should ask hamas to ask the egyptians to send some medicines?.....or dont "they count" because they're arabs?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
98. Starting June 30 they will be able to
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. Those links are from 2005
The Rafah border crossing is now controlled by Hamas.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. My mistake however- these links are a bit more recent
Edited on Wed Jun-27-07 02:46 PM by azurnoir
http://www.moqavemat.ir/?lang=en&state=showbody_news&ro...
at this point Egypt has the crossing closed, but I guess their security means less then Israels

http://ccun.org/News/2007/June/23%20n/5,000%20Palestini...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. so egypt has closed the crossing...
and israel has let in some trucks..


lets see: israel lets in some trucks...egypt lets in zero.....

islamic jihad attacks israel border points where the trucks enter, but not egyptian.....

and as i understand it, you find fault far more with the israelis who are bringing in medicines and food despite being attacked and not with the egyptians who are not being attacked and bring in nothing.

why?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. Somewhere/everywhere in Gaza today/yesterday a young man/ woman is watching
his/her loved one die a needless/pointless/unnecessary death.

Some ignorant person will soon ask this question: "What would ever possess someone to strap explosives to their body and walk into an Israeli ______.
Why oh whyyyyy?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. link , PLEASE
The Karni crossing suffered major structural damage during recent looting and damage done BY Palestinians. That crossing had been ordered closed BY Palestinians, correct?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Wrong. Spare me the innuendo, PLEASE
You are just as capable as I of googling. I discovered all of this is about 5 minutes.
The IDF (NOT the Palestinians) ordered the crossing closed. They also bombed a power plant a short time ago. They also stole some olive trees and were just ordered to replant them. (Ever see a tree uprooted and replanted? The shock typically ruins their bearing potential for a year or more.)
Oh yeah,

Here's your link:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3415131,00.ht...

I'm sure you can find many others if you want to...


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. Where's your link for that hyperbolic statement:
Edited on Tue Jun-26-07 04:47 PM by barb162
"Somewhere/everywhere in Gaza today/yesterday a young man/ woman is watching
his/her loved one die a needless/pointless/unnecessary death."

"everywhere in Gaza today" Everywhere?
It has no basis in fact.

Oh and let's keep the ol' olive trees story (they were replanted by Israelis for pete's sake),out of this when Palestinians have been thrown off roofs and been killed in hospital beds in recent weeks by other Palestinians.


Now here's some facts for you about border crossings:


PA official: Abbas asked Israel to close Gaza crossings

< 24/06/2007 - 12:53 PM >

GAZA, (PIC)-- An official source in the PA border crossings department has unveiled that PA chief Mahmoud Abbas asked the Israeli occupation government not to open crossings between Gaza Strip and the 1948-occupied Palestinian lands.

The step was obviously meant to tighten the economic blockade on Gaza Strip and the cash-strapped Palestinian people in the tiny Strip.

snip
Concerned Palestinian teams commissioned to manage the crossings on the Palestinian side received stern orders not to report to their works and to abandon those crossings till further notice, the official underlined.

But he warned that Abbass request will further worsen the already deteriorated economic condition in the tiny Strip to more than 18 months of wing-clipping international economic sanctions imposed by Israel and the USA.
snip
http://www.palestine-info.com/en/default.aspx?xyz=U6Qq7...





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. I wish my point was hyperbole. you are wrong and some google research will tell you that. Abbas'
request is criminal and certainly does not illustrate the will of the Palestinian people.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #35
65. Abbas is President, Your points are hyperbolic and wrong.
He was elected in 2005 and until someone else takes his place as President, he speaks for the Palestinians whether you think he's right or not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
29. And where's your link to the power plant story?
Your statement:"They also bombed a power plant a short time ago." What's a short time ago? Last week? Last year?

As long as you are making these charges, how about supporting them?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. Here's your link and I'm done doing your research for you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. That was right after Shalit was taken by Hamas, right?
Late June of 2006?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #44
52. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. I get the feeling, Tom,
that a splinter in someone's little finger would qualify as a war crime in your book, provided it was caused by the IDF.

Seriously... Israel bombed their power plant only after enduring six months of rocket attacks against their civilians. Then they began providing Gaza with electricity themselves. As they had been doing anyway, except for the past six years when Gaza's aid-built plant came online. Easy come, easy go.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #53
64. I read the human rights reports. I read of the people's sufferings due to the attack of
Edited on Tue Jun-26-07 10:52 PM by Tom Joad
the occupation army.
I do appreciate the work of Amnesty International. B'Tselem. Human Rights Watch. (and of course groups like Oxfam)
Keeps me informed. Those Along with other direct sources.

I can understand why people would like to pretend that the Israeli occupation is benevolent. Like many Americans believe the US occupation of Iraq is benevolent.

I don't think any of us really should indulge ourselves like that. Not helping anyone.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #52
58. Kidnapping and holding Corporal Shalit by the Palestinian war criminals
Edited on Tue Jun-26-07 09:13 PM by barb162
and their killing of two other soldiers on Israeli soil. Hundreds of kassams rocketed into Israel targetting innocent civilians. I guess you think the Israeli should have done nothing?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #38
57. Your first link was on Shalit( Hamas Releases Audio Tape Of Captured Israeli Soldier)
Did you intend that?

Well at least the second link is correct. The year old story about the power plant, as I suspected. Why did that attack happen? Palestinians attacked Israeli soldiers ON Israeli soil, killed two and kidnapped one. Corporal Shalit is still being denied his humanitarian rights by the Palestinians. Does Israel have Corporal Shalit back yet? No.
"The strike was a reprisal attack for a raid by Palestinian fighters on Kerem Shalom, just across the border from Gaza, in which two Israeli soldiers were killed, and a third, Corporal Gilad Shalit, was abducted and is still currently being held."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. It is not an "ignorant person" who asks the question...
...the 'ignorant one' is the one who tries to justify attacking Israeli citizens as "legitimate resistance."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
UndertheOcean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. So what's legitimate resistance in your opinion ?
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I can tell you what it isn't...killing civilians on purpose.
Do you think suicide attacks on civilian targets are 'legitimate?'

Legitimate resistance is non-violent protesting; political action; and even, in some cases, civil disobedience. What do you think it is?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
UndertheOcean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Well , we somewhat agree then ..... But what about violence directed towards IDF soldiers,..
in the WestBank, Is that legitimate in your opinion ?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Where do we "somewhat agree?"
Do you find suicide attacks on cilivian targets legitimate?

As for your question, it depends.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
UndertheOcean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. I somewhat agree with this statement of yours :
"Legitimate resistance is non-violent protesting; political action; and even, in some cases, civil disobedience."


And the "somewhat" part is due to my belief that civil disobedience , if not violent, is always legitimate.

Regarding This :

"Do you find suicide attacks on civilian targets legitimate?"

Of course not , I mean for GOD's sake , this is a progressive board after all, would I be posting here if I did.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
41. I find it shocking that anyone on this board could have to ask, or remotely think that anyone here
does support suicide attacks on civilians.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. And I find it sad that some here do support it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Who? I've never seen anyone support suicide bombings. All I've seen are charges that people do.
So, if you could like it up that would be great.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #48
55. Well, breakaleg, I do believe it was you who said...
that the Israelis deserve whatever they get.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. I don't think so.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. ...
breakaleg (1000+ posts) Wed Aug-30-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. This makes me enraged!
Israel has lost all credibility by continuing in this land grab of theirs. I don't see how anyone can defend Israel when they are doing this. As far as I'm concerned, they deserve whatever comes their way. In fact, they are bringing it on themselves.



Emphasis added.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. As my esteemed associate Vanilla Ice once said,
Word to your motha.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #63
80. Oopsy, "I think so"
Edited on Wed Jun-27-07 01:15 AM by barb162
Breakaleg got things just a TEENSY bit wrong.

:sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #63
92. I did not say I
Edited on Wed Jun-27-07 10:30 AM by breakaleg
supported suicide bombings. What I meant by that statement was simply that Israel is breeding hate with their policies in the occupied territories. And hate yields extremists. It takes someone special to believe that I or anyone would happily support the killing of innocent civilians.

Saying that you understand the very sad state of affairs that leads to suicide bombings and saying that you support suicide bombings are two different things entirely. You can explore the underlying causes without supporting the end result.

On edit: that post was NOT on the subject of suicide bombers. It was in fact on Israel's expansion of settlements. I'm sure those little details won't have any effect on you though. Good try though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #92
96. refer to post #55
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #63
93. Saying that some of us support suicide bombers is like me saying that the
vociferous supporters of Israel in this forum support the killing of Palestinians children by the IDF. Now, I've seen lots of posts here where the IDF was defended and excused in cases where children were killed, but I've never seen anyone say those children deserved it, it was ok or anything along those lines. Given that I'm well aware of your opinions in I/P, even I wouldn't go so far as to accuse you of supporting the killing of children by the IDF.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #93
97. I'll back you up here breakaleg....
i dont believe you support sucide bombers.....and like in real life we can write things in the "heat of the moment" with all its emotional baggage and write "sloppy"....

this is a pretty emtional topic with all kinds of viewpoints, angles etc.....dont sweat it, i really doubt the above posters actually believe you support suicide bombers, i think they're just "playing with you."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #48
62. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. If no one minds me jumping in here, I am curious...
what do you think of Israel's practice of targeted assasinations? Many denounce them here, others defend them. I wonder if you think they are legit or not?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
UndertheOcean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. I personally find them abhorrent....
What I find abhorrent about them is that they are punitive measures that come without due process , and more abhorrently with high rates of collateral damage.

And whenever you have such unchecked extrajudicial measures you are bound to end up with abuse , where loose suspicions may become enough to target someone.

Maybe there is no such abuse , but without a fair trial of suspects we can never know.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Thanks. You see where I'm going with this, right?
If it is unacceptable for Israel to target the heads of terror organizations directly responsible for attacks in Israel, then how can any attacks be considered legitimate?

Surely it is preferable to target the leaders of any force rather than just the young soldiers who wield no real decision making power. So if attacks on IDF soldiers can be considered legitimate, as a form of resistance, then why are Israel's targeted assasinations not thought of similarly. They operate under the same principle as the Hamas attacks on the IDF. If anything, they are better in that they seek to target specific people who are heading up the organizations instead of just killing as many foot soldiers as possible. (Thus leading to less collateral damage than any alternative action.)

This is my issue with the argument. I have yet to hear anyone demand that Hamas arrest soldiers and try them in court. I often hear their attacks (against troops at least) being defended. Yet Israeli attacks, despite their being much more specificly targeted and planned to limit civilian casualties, are denounced as ignoring due process.

I feel like there is a double standard and people are trying to have it both ways. Thoughts?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. Whereas quietly starving to death would be so much more convenient for you. Is bombing the only
power plant in town legitimate?

You are saying that taking away someone's food and starving them to death is better than killing them with more direct means. Wow.

I personally think both are wrong. However, people like you with a "Israel can do no wrong" attitude, are definitely pushing my sympathies toward the Palestinians. Not that they deserve them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. That makes no sense.
Do not presume to know me or my positions because it is clear from your posts that you do not.

"You are saying that taking away someone's food and starving them to death is better than killing them with more direct means." I said nothing of the sort. This is what is commonly called a "strawman."

"However, people like you with a "Israel can do no wrong" attitude, are definitely pushing my sympathies toward the Palestinians." Again, I have never said "Israel can do no wrong." Your assessment of my attitude is known as an ad hominem argument.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I have never seen you have anything other than very strong support for Israel. Israel often
uses the tactic of withholding, money, food, electricity, and water in an effort to force submission. This is fact. It is not a strawman. If that is not your position, and you do not support those tactics of Israel's then I will retract the statement. Based on your past posts supporting them, I imagine it will be very hard for you to prove.

I wasn't attacking the argument with my second statement, therefore it is not an "ad hominem". I was only attacking your one-sidedness...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. Still makes no sense.
The sub-topic was your "question" about suicide bombers. I did not make any comment about Israeli actions or inactions. You have done nothing but speculate and toss about one ad hominem after another. The strawman to which I spoke was your assertion about something I never said. Then in the above post, you introduce another topic and act as if that was the one which was called a strawman, when it was not, thereby making it a strawman, not because of the factual nature, but because it was not the original assertion. You continue your behavior with, "If that is not your position, and you do not support those tactics of Israel's then I will retract the statement. Based on your past posts supporting them, I imagine it will be very hard for you to prove." in two sentences you contradict yourself and in the process tell me what my position with no proof, yet expect me to prove your false assertion.

Your second statement was attacking me, and is in ad hominem. As it appears you don't understand that word, you may want to look it up.

In logic
An ad hominem fallacy consists of asserting that someone's argument is wrong and/or he is wrong to argue at all purely because of something discreditable/not-authoritative about the person or those persons cited by him rather than addressing the soundness of the argument itself. The implication is that the person's argument and/or ability to argue correctly lacks authority. Merely insulting another person in the middle of otherwise rational discourse does not necessarily constitute an ad hominem fallacy. It must be clear that the purpose of the characterization is to discredit the person offering the argument, and, specifically, to invite others to discount his arguments. In the past, the term ad hominem was sometimes used more literally, to describe an argument that was based on an individual, or to describe any personal attack. However, this is not how the meaning of the term is typically introduced in modern logic and rhetoric textbooks, and logicians and rhetoricians are in agreement that this use is incorrect.

Ad hominem

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
45. My logic professor would certainly disagree with you as to my "understanding". As I said before
if you do not support Israel's tactics, then I was wrong in saying that you did. I'm not sure how to be more clear, but maybe you just want to type ad hominem a couple more times. I have been ghosting the I/P forum for years now because I didn't want to get into this sort of misunderstanding with people. I have read many of your posts and I have never, ever, heard you condemn Israel's tactics. Your support for them is clear. That is what I based my statement on. Given contradictory information, I already indicated that I would retract my comments.

My original statement was meant to illustrate my understanding, and others misunderstanding, of horrible tactics used when someone has lost everything. Not sympathetic, simply understanding.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #45
66. For someone "ghosting" I/P, you sure have taken liberty with things.
"Whereas quietly starving to death would be so much more convenient for you."

I have never said anything of the like.

"You are saying that taking away someone's food and starving them to death is better than killing them with more direct means."

Again, I have never said or even implied anything to the like.

There have been times I haven't supported actions by the IDF or Israeli politicians. However, you still engage in personal attacks by claiming things I said that I never said.

"I have read many of your posts and I have never, ever, heard you condemn Israel's tactics. Your support for them is clear."

False logic. Because you have never seen a post by my condemning Israel's tactics, doesn't imply "support." It would be no different then were I to say; "I have never seen you condemn anti-Semitism. Your support for it is clear."

"Given contradictory information, I already indicated that I would retract my comments."

Behind the Aegis (1000+ posts) Tue Dec-05-06 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Why do you insist making things up?
I never said or implied Lieberman recanted. I have never defended him. I do not blindly support Israel (a clever run around of the rule calling posters "Israeli apologists"). What I find very telling is your desire to have him removed from office. The Israelis chose him, it is up to them to replace him. As for his recent appointment, that was an ignorant political move by Olmert to keep his ass out of a sling, which didn't seem to take.


It really does only take ONE example to disprove your 'theory' that I am a member of the "Israel can do no wrong" group.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. Yes you're right. If only those darn Palestinians would just be nice then the world would be their
oyster. You sir, are an island of objectivity. Please forgive me for noticing things that are there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. Nothing but snark.
Again, I said nothing of the sort nor implied it. However, you have shown yourself unwilling to accept the facts placed before you and apologize for making a mistake.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #71
81. Why don't you start supplying support for your accusations
Edited on Wed Jun-27-07 01:30 AM by barb162
Where is your evidence (1) that Behind the Aegis ever (remotely or not) supported or wrote such a ridiculous statement as yours: "Whereas quietly starving to death would be so much more convenient for you" and (2) where in the world already is your evidence that people ARE actually starving in Gaza. (Yours: "Somewhere/everywhere in Gaza today/yesterday a young man/ woman is watching
his/her loved one die a needless/pointless/unnecessary death....")


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #71
86. Is ANYONE here an island of objectivity?
Edited on Wed Jun-27-07 04:11 AM by LeftishBrit
I sometimes get the impression that in some people's views on DU, if you don't think that Israel is a uniquely evil country, then you support everything that Israel does and can't see any faults in it. It's a sort of mirror-image of the super-patriot attitude: "if you see any faults in your country, you hate it and are a traitor". I don't often see the super-patriot attitude attitude on DU, but I do see the first one.

(For my part, I see lots of faults in Israel, and certainly in its current government, and am quite critical of it; but I don't think it's uniquely bad, or worse than many other countries, even if only judged on treatment of Palestinians. Nor do I think that the actions of Hamas are justified.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #86
90. as you may have noticed...
Edited on Wed Jun-27-07 06:21 AM by pelsar
its very difficult to have a real discussion about which of the israeli policies are good/bad/stuiped etc since most of the time the accusations are so irrelvant that most of the time here is spent "asking for proof" or attempting to bring some realism in to the discussion.

what have we here so far:
israel is now starving the palestenians
israel has a bockade (how does a 3/4 bockade work anyway?
egypt cant help because the egyptian people wont have it

genocide (not on this particular one)
concentration camp gaza
stealing all the water and fertile land
targeting children

etc etc etc

I once had about 30 posts with someone who claimed that egypt couldnt help because trucks couldnt enter gaza via rafah.....the poster actually wrote that he needed to see detailed analysis of the infrastructure of the area, to know whether or not it could take heavy trucks....(i actually found some picts of the asphalt road with the trucks on it for him.....)


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Who is starving to death?
Why do they seem to have so many missiles at their disposal and the money to hire squads to launch them, yet so little in the way of staple supplies?

However, no one is starving to death. And no one took away the Gazan's food. What you are saying is that should Israel decide to stop transferring water, electricity and other supplies to Gaza, that the PA then has the ethical authority to attack them with rockets and bombs?

How does that work? Right now, people in North Korea are starving to death. Since America is not transferring food aid to them, are they entitled to respond by declaring war on us? Or is the USA actually entitled to withhold their help from nations that declare themselves our enemies?

If Hamas spends all of their budget on arms, and their people are hungry as a result, is Isral required to pick up the slack, even if those arms were purchased to use against her?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. If you surround me and I'm unable to get important, life sustaining, staples then yes
I have every right to attack you. North Korea is fully capable of growing food. No one is bombing their power plants, building walls around their neighborhoods, blocking their shipments and workers, uprooting their olive trees, etc. etc..

What do you think Israel does with all those guns we give them every year? Lets be fair now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Hundreds of tons of food allowed into Gaza
'Israel will continue to help'

The Coordination and Liaison Unit in Erez keeps searching for different ways to provide Gazans with humanitarian aid. Earlier, they coordinated the passage of dozens of trucks carrying basic necessities and medical supplies into Gaza, via the Kerem Shalom crossing.

The supplies included 130 tons of flour, some 50 tons each of rice and sugar, 34 tons of pasta, 20 tons of beans, 30 tons of margarine, 18.5 of barley, 33 tons of lentils, five tons of tea, eight tons of powdered milk, 15 tons of humus, two tons of soup and seven tons of astringents.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3416051,00.ht...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Why were they rushed those supplies by "humanitarian" organizations if it wasn't somehow a problem?
"Israel will continue to help"? Is that help anything like the help America has given the Iraqis? There's an old saying about the road to Hell being paved with good intentions. I think it applies here.

The entire tone of that article denotes shortages and I, as a free person, would never allow reliance on someone else's goodwill(Or their satisfied "security" concerns.) for my daily bread if I could help it.

Then again, I'm actually trying to see things from their point of view. Just like when I curse at the T.V. and mourn those whose lives are stolen by the horrors of suicide bombing. I believe that every life lost is tragic. Both sides are in the wrong.

I will never stop disagreeing with those who think Israel is right~ or even just a little bit less wrong.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. Is running short on supplies somehow the same as starving to death?
They are being resupplied.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
36.  Several UN food centers were closed because of Fatah/Hamas fighting
for several days. And UN health clinics were closed for the same reason. You might want to take a look at Palestinians fighting each other and endangering UN staff (two of whom were killed by Palestinian militants) for the reason the food and health supplies haven't gotten to Gaza.

That's for your edification.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. I'm sure your answer to this question will be even more edifying: Why are the Palestinians fighting
each other? What possible reason could they have?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #39
56.  Power?
Maybe Hamas is trying to install Islamic rule? Maybe Hamas thought Fatah was staging a coup and maybe a few dozen other things depending on which opiner is talking. Add in a lot of bad blood from the previous street fighting after several ceasefires (of the "unity" government) that lasted a few hours.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #39
60. Why don't you answer my posts 34 and 36?
You know, is running short on supplies the same as starving to death and what if the supply problem is caused by the fighting of the Palestinians. If Palestinians can't go out to the market to get food because they mught get their heads blown off in Palestinian crossfire, who the hell's fault is that? Thailand? Mexico?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #60
68. Which would you prefer?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #68
77. Both
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #26
40. Is there going to be another shipment later today? Tomorrow? It's still not enough.
The Palestinians, at a bare minimum, need 275 tons of flour a day for basic needs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. 3,000 tons of food and medicine 5 days a week
JERUSALEM, June 24 (Reuters) - Israel will use two small border passages, not the main Karni crossing that is Gaza's economic lifeline, to bring in basic supplies, officials said on Sunday, citing security concerns with Hamas in control of the territory.

The Israeli officials said their plans would allow around 3,000 tonnes of emergency food and medicine to enter the Gaza Strip through two small border passages five days per week.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L24648535.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Hmmm, why call it "emergency food and medicine" if all those Palestinians are so
fat and happy? Do you honestly think they're actually getting 3000 tons a week? I hope so, buty they're not. "Allowing" is not the same as "Ensuring"...
So far it seems as though it's not enough. Not enough food or medicine Not enough money to buy any. Even if you can get 3000 tons in, if your economy is crushed, how are you going to pay for it?

It doesn't matter how you slice it. The Israeli tactics are hurting innocent Palestinian people. (OH don't get me wrong, I condemn the criminal acts of the Palestinians who harm innocent Israelis too!) All I'm saying is that it is all wrong and NONE of it should be supported. NONE of it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. I did not say that the Palestinians were "fat and happy"
I do believe, however, that the actions of Hamas are not making things any better/easier for the Palestinians in Gaza.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #51
69. I'm sure you're right... n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #69
79. If you're so concerned about food supplies to Gaza, ask Hamas
and Fatah why they spend millions on weapons and spend their time shooting at each other.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. So who the heck is starving to death?
No one.

If you have a link to prove someone is starving to death, please let us all in on it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Try spending a minute on Google. You'll find something that contradicts you there...n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
61.  I'm not interested in propaganda. I'm interested in facts.
If you have some info that people are starving, I haven't seen you supply it or admit there might be a problem in supply because Abbas wanted the borders shut or that it's because the Palestinains are killing each other in the streets, etc.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
50. Ah, but they do have a way to get their needs fulfilled.
It just doesn't come without conditions. That's the nut isn't it?

The issue here is not whether Hamas has a right to attack Israel or not. The question is what Israel's responsibilities are to the innocent civilians of a government that has declared war on her, and is backing up those threats with real (though increasingly ineffective) attacks. This would be simple if not for a big complication... Any action that Israel takes to defend itself against attacks from Hamas are going to negatively impact on their citizens in some way. By this point we can draw a fairly reliable scale that shows Israeli safety is proportional to Palestinian hardship.

As bad as things are for the Palestinians, they can always get worse. Israel did not instigate the blockade without cause. Suicide bombings and rocket attacks came FIRST. There is no question about that. Israel's response is not collective punishment. The hardships they impose are side effects of the security measures that have been found necessary. And if Hamas keeps looking for chinks in Israel's armor to take advantage of, Israel will be forced to plug those chinks, to the ultimate detriment of the average Palestinian.

Israel can always decide to act more like America does in Iraq, and they would sustain far fewer casualties, but the human cost would be unacceptable. Israel has put a substantial amount of energy into protecting themselves as best as they can, while causing the fewest casualties among Palestinians as possible. The blockade and security wall are imperfect solutions at best. But that doesn't mean that better solutions exist.

Personally, I think that Israel has a responsibility to offer aid as it is needed. But it is up to the PA to ensure that that aid can be brought in safely. We can't expect Israel to "impose" aid on the Palestinians against the will or actions of their government. Think about how Hamas acts. It's very cynical to criticise Israel for not bringing in aid or opening the crossings if you attack the crossings whenever they are open (presenting themselves as a relatively soft, accessible target.)

At worst, one could argue that Israel is demanding that Hamas do as they say, or they will not allow in food. (Which isn't true, but is an exaggeration people like to make.) Even if true, how unreasonable is this? To demand they change their policies or Israel will hurt them? Well, when their policy is to kill Israelis, I don't see how you could critique this action. Terrorism, no matter how harsh, will not bring them increased aid. They do not have the firepower to defeat Israel militarily force them to open the crossings. They have just enough though, to force Israel to close them. How wise is it then, to rely on muscle alone, when you only have enough of them to make your opponent angry?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. Great minds think alike! That's what I'm questioning.
Nobody is starving in Gaza and the UNRWA will certainly tell us very quickly if anyone is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
54. word up b. np
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. Behind the Aegis never made such a statement nor has he ever
implied or suggested such a thing. You're way out of line.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. More WFP trucks head for Gaza
Jerusalem, 20 June 2007 - The United Nations World Food Programme has announced that nine trucks carrying 225 metric tons of food have begun to cross the border into Gaza today.

The food convoy follows the arrival yesterday of seven WFP trucks carrying 200 metric tons of food assistance into the occupied Palestinian territory.

The trucks will cross into Gaza through Kerem Shalom, the southern border crossing from Israel that has been opened after a consensus was reached by all parties to allow emergency relief supplies through.

WHO also sent one truckload of urgently-needed medical supplies to Gaza through the crossing yesterday.

http://www.wfp.org/english/?ModuleID=137&Key=2537
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. geography isnt really that difficult....
i do believe gaza borders on egypt....do you wonder why neither the article nor some of the posters ignore that fact?...now i cant ask the auther of the article, but i can ask the poster..

so Tom...any reason why egypt isnt helping out here?....they do share a border with gaza...perhaps you can put some light on the fact that there is no mention of egypts ability to transfer supplies?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Small, unimportant question: Is it even slightly possible that Egypt would screw
most of its own citizens if it openly helped the Palestinians? I guess it doesn't care about its ties to the U.S. and Israel.. That 60+ BILLION in aid it got last year was just spit in the ocean and Egypt can afford to piss it away... right? Sure Egypt has the ability to transfer supplies. Is it going to hurt its own citizens in the process? I think not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. confused.
Why would helping the Palestinians be harmful to Egyptian citizens? No one is suggesting that Egypt adopt all of them.

And who gave Egypt 60+ BILLION in aid??? America has been giving them around 2 billion a year. Is someone making up the 58 bil that I don't know about?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. My bad, I got the 2 numbers confused. $60 bln is the overall number. It doesn't, however, really
change the reality that Egypt would be hurting itself if they openly helped the Palestinians against the Israeli's and American govt's will. There are several instances of American threats to cut off aid if they don't stop the smuggling in just the last 2 years. Israel directly controlled that border until '05 I believe, and there has been a non-stop effort to force Egypt to close off the "smuggling" ever since. Yes some guns go through there, but much more in the way of food and such. I'm not saying the Palestinians are blameless, but as I see it, they have much, much less power to help themselves.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
46. much more in the way of food?
Edited on Tue Jun-26-07 07:01 PM by Shaktimaan
I dunno man. This is the first I've heard of that. It doesn't make sense economically. Hamas isn't using the tunnels for some kind of socialist distribution system, they are operated according to which goods can command the highest prices. So it would naturally end up ferrying guns, ammunition and of course, money itself. (How else is Hamas going to get the infusions of cash they need to pay for the extravagant militia system they're running, not to mention the high cost of firing Qassams? The leader of such a team makes around 5 grand US for EACH barrage they successfully launch!)

I am having a tough time buying the notion that Hamas is using the smuggling tunnels for food, or at least I'm having trouble believing they're smuggling relief food for their citizens. If that were the case then the actual relief food that does make it into Gaza would probably end up being distributed as intended instead of resold for profit.

I think Israel and America have a legitimate concern over the smuggling tunnels. Aside from the actual goods being smuggled, they are a symbol of the PA's refusal to do anything that might stem the tide of violence or do anything beneficial for any of the parties who have been giving them tremendous amounts of aid for decades. It isn't in America's interest to have civil unrest or a humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Not at all. When we talk about cutting off aid, we are talking about aid to the government itself. Direct aid. Not emergency aid in the form of food and water and clothes. I mean, if Israel is being pressured to bring this kind of aid in, no one would fault Egypt for helping. No one would threaten to cut emergency rations to civilians for political leverage. That's evil.

And while we may have threatened to cut off some kind of aid, (although I'm confused on that one because the US isn't allowed to offer direct aid to the PA. We only give aid by proxy, usually through foreign based NGOs working in Gaza) but the vast bulk of Americas aid to Palestinians has never been threatened. I'm specifically talking about UNRWA, most of whose budget is fulfilled by the US, with the EU managing most of the remainder. America really has done much for the Palestinians, it is because of UNRWA that they are the second most educated people in the Middle East, with a literacy rate almost equal to Israel, (or any other first world nation.) There's really nothing to be gained by America fostering hardship in Gaza. Rather, they would like to see a more moderate Hamas take form, one that puts its citizen's needs over its own political agenda. There's nothing wrong with America or Europe demanding that Hamas meet some basic requirements in order to receive the vast infusions of cash they need to stay solvent. The idea that we'll just keep giving them cash no matter what they say or do is counterproductive on many levels. One of the reasons that aid is given so freely is because it allows the first world to have some small amount of influence in the decisionmaking. The idea is that they use carrots and sticks to beneficially influence policy. This is the best way to influence these groups. The alternatives are to do nothing or use the "Iraq 2003 strategy."

The Palestinians have very little power to help themselves, true. They have a significant amount of power (and practice) when it comes to shooting themselves in the foot though. The irony is that, right now, their best friends are probably to be found in the west. Their Arab neighbors have been using them to advance their own interests for decades, often at their expense. Alternatively, the west craves recognition for solving the crisis more than they need (or could even use) any kind of political gambit that manipulating the Palestinians might offer. This weird concept looks more plausible when we see Israel attempting to offer relief for Palestinians caught in the crossfire while they are neglected or worse by their democratically elected government. The fact that that's what we EXPECT Israel to do (and also expect Hamas to do) shows us the unvarnished Western take on social responsibility in Palestinian vs. Israeli societies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. I can find them later if you like (I've got to run out for a bit right now.), but at least 2
different articles I read stated that the tunnels were used for much more than weapons, especially right after they opened. I can't speak to what's happening today.

I also agree that the PA has miserably failed its own people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #49
74. Most articles will point out the tunnels are currently used for weapons smuggling,
and money for weapons. The smuggling is illegal as it bypasses the border established by the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty, the Disengagement plan, etc. Egypt hasn't exactly been stringent in upholding its end of the treaty in enforcing the legal border, that is, the Egyptian Army isn't exactly breaking its collective neck getting rid of the tunnelling on its side of the border.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #49
75. Stop money smuggling into Gaza
Stop money smuggling into Gaza


Palestinians have managed to smuggle no less than USD 20 million via weapons smuggling tunnels between Gaza, Egypt, mostly in 500 Euro bills. Olmert demands Egypts president stop the smuggling. Money went to establishing new Hamas militia, intelligence says

Ronny Sofer Latest Update: 06.07.06, 00:57 / Israel News


Israel has learned that the Palestinians are taking advantages of the weapons smuggling tunnels linking Egypt with the Gaza Strip to sneak millions of Euros into the territories to ease the financial crisis. The money, mostly in 500 Euro bills to minimize its volume, is an oxygen pipe for the PA, which is suffocating under the pressures of international sanctions.


snip
Apart from the money, the Palestinians also smuggled 11 tons of TNT explosives into Gaza since Israel withdrew from the Philadelphi route last summer. Diskin said that the Shin Bet perceives smuggling as a serious problem, since the materials brought into the Strip are used for improving Qassam warheads, and for producing explosive belts and explosive devices.

snip

Olmert urged Mubarak to clamp on smugglers and bust smuggling tunnels along the Rafah border.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3259724,00.ht...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
70. facts wrong again?
Edited on Tue Jun-26-07 11:34 PM by pelsar
If you surround me and I'm unable to get important, life sustaining, staples....

Is it even slightly possible that Egypt would screw most of its own citizens if it openly helped the Palestinians?
_____

boy this is really really too easy in showing your false arguments:

your first is that israel surrounds gaza...it doesnt egypt and gaza share a border

the second is that a while back egypt did let 280 trucks enter gaza with food/equipment from the egyptians as well as assistance from the UN
23 March a further six trucks of humanitarian assistance had crossed from Egypt into....
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/ABES-6N7MD...

Egypt has provided the Gazan people with 280 trucks of humanitarian ..


Kerem Shalom crossing on the Gaza-Israel-Egyptian border has been open for limited amounts of humanitarian
assistance originating from Egypt since Wednesday, 22 March

Gaza Strip: March access report (12 April 2006) - Closure at Karni ... (link is out of data....but google shows it once existed)

http://www.reliefweb.int/library/documents/2006/ocha-ps...
____

your going to have to think of some other reason to blame israel....or do the logical thing...stop making false accusations that cant be backed up and accept that gaza has a border to egypt.....and that israel is no longer responsable for the well beings of the palestenains.
(any picts of those "starving palestenians?)

oh yea..and how exactly would giving aid or letting the UN transfer food via egypt "hurt the egyptians"...(.i cant wait to read the answer to this one...)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #70
76. My facts and my analysis are quite accurate. You, however, could do more research with
a less myopic viewpoint.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #76
78. if your facts are accurate...then perhaps
Edited on Wed Jun-27-07 12:56 AM by pelsar
you can explain this very strange statement:

Is it even slightly possible that Egypt would screw most of its own citizens if it openly helped the Palestinians?

how? in what way? (since they already have....)

___

and my research?...explain exactly what part is wrong?

____

and will you even answer the above questions?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #78
84. I think it would be far more helpful if you answered them for yourself. That way you can get
the answer you want(and expect), and thereby feel quite pleased with yourself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. how can i answer them... i dont think you can either
Edited on Wed Jun-27-07 03:45 AM by pelsar
you made the accusations........

Is it even slightly possible that Egypt would screw most of its own citizens if it openly helped the Palestinians?
_____

so what would happen if the Egyptians sent aid or let the UN send in trucks via Rafah?....me? think nothing would happen other than the palestenians getting some food and medicine.

and thoses picts of the starving palestenians?...i couldnt find any....perhaps you can direct me to a link?
____

one sees this a lot around here: accusations without any base..and when "called out" and one asks for proof.......there is none. I believe the theory is that if you keep throwing enough accusations at least some will stick....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #85
87. Pretty sure I already gave you some advice on how to handle your questions. Those who seek...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #87
88. yes you gave advice....
Edited on Wed Jun-27-07 04:27 AM by pelsar
i understand it to be the following:

"i made an accusation that i cannot back up. i have no proof or links to back up my assertion but i still stand by it, because i believe it"...for those who are actually interested in some kind of proof for it...i have none, so please stop bothering me with such questions.

___

that is at least how i understand it since even though i have asked for somekind of proof....there is none coming is there?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #89
91. so.....
i guess that puts you in the "believer catagory".....those who believe something, cant find any proof for it, but believe it anyway and attempt to have others believe it like you......

not much to argue with when it comes down to that....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #91
94. I believe you're funny. Wrong again, but funny. :-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #94
95. let me be serious and polite for a sec...
Edited on Wed Jun-27-07 11:04 AM by pelsar
you have made an accusation.....this happens a lot around here...i believe you are 1000% wrong...i therefore ask you simply to back it with some kind of information.....

I've asked this in various ways for over several posts now

why would the egyptian people or any other people object if the egyptian govt sends food and medicines to the palestenains?

you obviously believe its true...so i asking you why do you believe so?


(i have been told by breakaleg that my problem is the way i ask my questions.....so i am trying to be more precise and polite)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #95
100. Hmmm, haven't you had this argument before? I'm sure
you have.

If for a moment, I thought that you were seriously interested in politeness or information, then I might be inclined to give you those links you have asked for.
As it is, I have no intention of providing you, or your allies, further target for your traducement.

I will, however, wish you a nice day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #100
102. I take it this is an outright admission you can't support your posts
with any facts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poverlay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #102
106. Whatever makes you feel better.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #95
104. If I may interject
It is my understanding that the gist of the argument is:

The US gives Egypt a large amount of financial aid. Egypt does not want to do anything that would jeopardize that. Therefore, Egypt will not take any actions that would threaten relations with the United States and possibly lead to a decrease of financial support. Assisting the population of Hamas-ruled Gaza would presumably be contrary to the wishes of the United States. Egypt, then, would avoid going against the will of the US in this regard in order to maintain the current economic arrangement between the two countries.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. if the arguement is
that bringing in medicine and food to the palestenains is not what the US wants.....that means israel is going against the US wishes...... given that israel does get more aid than egypt it would seem that israel is then taking the greater risk by delivering the goods than egypt to help the palestenains.

____

actually since much of the food and medicines are via the UN, and i havent really heard where the US wants the palestenians not to get medicine and food, i find that arguement weak at best.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #105
107. I've never heard that the US would discourage food and meds
for anyone. Suggesting that the US would somehow penalize Egypt or Israel for providing humanitarian needs is just absurd. Obviously that post hinting around that the US would do that is equally absurd and that's why, IMHO, the poster provides no sources.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #76
82. I dunno.
I'm still sceptical on this one as well.

I don't think Israel controls every border, Egypt clearly controls one. I don't think anyone is opposed to bringing humanitarian aid into Gaza. And I don't see how Egypt would hurt itself by offering more humanitarian aid. If America is threatening to withold any of their aid to Egypt over this issue, I've not heard of it. (And I think they land on the other side of this debate anyway, supporting humanitarian aid shipments into Gaza, not the opposite. Why would they?)

Financial aid and humanitarian aid are quite different.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-26-07 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
72. How does Egypt screw its own citizens by helping Palestinians?
Edited on Wed Jun-27-07 12:06 AM by barb162
Other than if you're referring to weapons and munitions (and money for same) being given to Palestinians? I can't believe the Quartet and Israel being upset if food, clothes, medical supplies, etc., were given to the Palestinians.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
83. 'Palestinian attack on Gaza passage won't halt aid'
Edited on Wed Jun-27-07 02:02 AM by barb162
snip
"Islamic Jihad took responsibility for the Kerem Shalom attack in an announcement on its Web site.

Ahmed Youssef, an aide to deposed Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas, read a statement denouncing the attack. "The crossings should be out of the range of mortars from the factions out of concern for people's lives and livelihoods," he said "snip
"This is exactly the operational challenge that is faced to keep the crossings going. We hope that this is not the beginning of sustained attacks because everyone knows how vulnerable the humanitarian situation is there," Ging told the Post."

snip
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

How does aid get supplied when the Palestinians attack the aid routes? Maybe OXFAM should be asked how many terrorist attacks are acceptable and how many people should put their lives at risk. Maybe OXFAM, instead of sitting around making arrogant pronouncements on how things should be, should get their rear ends to Gaza and under fire deliver some food to the people shooting at them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
108. Locking
Seems the thread is more interested in what people have said and not said.

Lithos
DU Moderator
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Aug 21st 2014, 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC