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Lebanon Says To Seek War Reparations From Israel

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Purveyor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-16-07 05:55 PM
Original message
Lebanon Says To Seek War Reparations From Israel
Lebanon is preparing to go to an international tribunal to seek reparations from Israel for damage caused during last years month-long war, the countrys finance minister Jihad Azour said on Monday.

Speaking at Johns Hopkins University, Azour declined to say which court or international tribunal Lebanon would petition and added that the case is still being prepared.

---
We were attacked. The (extent of the) Israeli aggression was beyond the purpose. Therefore we want to seek reparation, first of all, for the principle that you cannot kill 1,400 individuals, most of them civilians, displace so many people and destroy the economy without being asked for reparations, he said.

We are preparing our case, he added.

---EOE---

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3388724,00.ht...


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PuraVidaDreamin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-16-07 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nicaragua awarded $17 Billion by World Court -US guilty of war crimes
for Iran Contra- We have never paid one cent to Nicaragua.

And Israel will continue to spit in the face of Lebanon.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
2. Belgian Defense Minister: Israel must pay to clear cluster bombs in Lebanon
<snip>

"Belgium's Defense Minister said last week that he would act to extract payment from Israel for the removal of cluster bomb fragments that the Israel Defense Forces fired into Lebanese territory during the Second Lebanon War.

During a meeting with representatives of Medical Aid for the Third World (MATW), an international medical organization, Defense Minister Andre Flahaut said the weapon was "the resort of cowards and a violation of international law."

The organization's coordinator, Dr. Bert De Belder, told Haaretz that Flahaut was receptive to the idea that Israel should be regarded as a polluter, and be made to pay for the removal of the pollution so far estimated at $13 million.

According to De Belder, Flahaut said he will recommend to Prime Minister Verhofstadt to adopt the principle.

Flahaut, scheduled to visit Lebanon this week, informed De Belder that he intended to advise the Lebanese government to support making Israel financially accountable. De Belder and the other members of the MATW delegation presented Flahaut with a petition signed by 3,415 Belgian supporters, including 13 MPs from various political factions."

more
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. Now I've heard it all.
The organization's coordinator, Dr. Bert De Belder, told Haaretz that Flahaut was receptive to the idea that Israel should be regarded as a polluter, and be made to pay for the removal of the pollution so far estimated at $13 million.

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. But it is interesting to note that Belgium is eager to try and change the context of the war in an attempt to nail Israel for SOMETHING. It's clear that the Belgium DM has made up his mind that Israel should be held responsible and if they can't do it by charging them within the context of a war then they will try and use civil laws in an ingenious way.
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 04:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. hmm
we want to seek reparation, first of all, for the principle that you cannot kill 1,400 individuals, most of them civilians, displace so many people and destroy the economy without being asked for reparations,


Given that

A) Israel suffered a lot of economic damage from Hizbullah, and a lot of Israelis were displaced for the duration of the war (not to mention the dead)
B) Hizbullah was the agressor and Lebanon failed to fulfill (or even attempt to fulfill) its responsibility to prevent attacks from its territory on neighboring states (not to mention that Hizbullah is part of the Lebenese government)

should Israeli likewise seek reparations from Lebanon?
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parkia00 Donating Member (401 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Who suffered more? Who destroyed more? Who killed more?
Are you saying that Israel suffered just as much as Lebanon during this pointless war?
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Are you suggesting that suffering in a conflict . .
. . is how one determines who is right and who is wrong - who is defending themselves and who attacking another party?

I just wondered because that seems to be a popular notion in this forum.
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parkia00 Donating Member (401 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. No, you said that
Read again carefully before shooting of a response. The point of this topic was compensation for damage done in that pointless war. Lebanon was seeking compensation for their destroyed infrastructure like bridges, highways, power plants, airports and I think there was a dairy farm somewhere in there too. Hard to remember since the destruction was so wide spread and done very efficiently.

My first reply was to address the poster who suggested that Lebanon should compensate Israel too since Hezbollah caused damage and death in Israel during the war. To which I replied who caused more destruction and death in that said war and maybe hopefully we can compare the extent of damage suffered in that war by both sides and come to a conclusion who suffered more? Who had greater amount of destruction. Who had greater numbers killed. The only person that brought up this question who is right or wrong in the blame game is you.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I didn't "say" it. I asked it.
Like I said, it wasn't clear so I asked for a clarification.

Read again carefully before shooting off a stupid response.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I read it and understood it. It said nothing remotely close to what you "asked".
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parkia00 Donating Member (401 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. It was my mistake
to imply that you "said" it rather than you "asked it." My apologies for this major mistake forcing you to ask for a clarification because you were not clear of what was being discussed.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Well, just to be accurate . .
. . you "said" it - you didn't "imply" it.
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parkia00 Donating Member (401 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. If you say so like you said.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. do we determine restitution
based solely on the amount of damage caused? Or does fault also play a role?

If someone attempts to mug you and in the resulting scuffle you break his arm while only getting a few scratches yourself does his greater suffering obligate you to be responsible for his medical bills? Or should he still be responsible for your (far smaller) medical bills?
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Sure. And Lebanon can subtract the much smaller amount they owe Israel from the huge
amount Israel owes them. See the problem?
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. That's not how it works.
If Lebanon is indeed responsible for that restitution to Israel, no matter how small, then it is an admission that they are responsible for Hezbollah's actions. Thus also responsible for being the initiator, freeing Israel of liability.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Somehow, it always works around to the notion that the victim is responsible for being shot. nt
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Fault usually lies with the party that shoots first.
except in this forum.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Ok. So if I throw a rock at you, can you then demolish my house? My street?
Edited on Tue Apr-17-07 04:37 PM by breakaleg
Or does it have to be my entire town? Where is the line? Or is there even a line at all?
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. There is a line.
The line lies at the exact point that you decide to cease throwing stones at me.

And yes, if you throw rocks at me every day, for years then there would be repercussions. Imagine it. One day knocking my cat unconscious. The next day breaking a few of my windows, then breaking one of my kids' noses, and so on while the police do nothing. You are unable to be dissuaded, swearing that you are going to destroy my family with your rocks even if you have to throw every last one in the garden. I notice a rock company trucking in some new, larger rocks and then spot you practicing with a high-power slingshot in your yard. Then one day you hit my wife in the head with a rock and kill her, still swearing that more is to come while every authority figure in the county ignores it.

At that point I decide to do whatever it takes to force you to stop throwing rocks at me. No more than that. But if I end up having to destroy your house to protect my family from your crazed rock-throwing compulsion then I won't hesitate for a second.

But hey, that's just me. What would you do?
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. So, destroying my house is the line?
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. no...cant agree
if after your house is destroyed..and you keep on "throwing rocks, threatening to throw bigger ones and go after the kids.....then perhaps we'll go after your driveway, your trees......

maybe you'll figure it out.....cause and affect...responsability for ones actions.......and stop....in that case you'll have peace.

a really really good hint is to check out the "neighborhood", those who "stopped throwing rocks" and those who dont...which one lives better?
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. It depends.
is your new rock launcher in your neighbor's house? Goodbye neighbor's house. But I am not a monster. I would leave him a note, telling him to leave the house so I wouldn't hurt him. But whether or not he stayed in the house, I can't let you continue to use that rock launcher he has in his garage. And I would feel bad if he thought that locking his cat in the kitchen would keep me from destroying the house because I like cats and have no wish to hurt any. But at the end of the day my family is more important.

Let me make it very very clear. Anything that I needed to do to get you to stop attacking and killing my family is fair. Anyone that is helping you, if they did not stop then I would have to stop them. I do not care if you forced them into helping you. Any resources you are using, if no one would stop you from using them then I would do it myself, destroying them if need be.

But then most people would stop throwing the rocks way before then. Especially if they gave a rat's ass about their own house, their neighbor, his cat, and so on.

Here is the caveat. If I had any other means at my disposal to stop you then I would use those first. I would sue you. I would go to the police. etc. But once they all failed I would do what was necessary to protect myself and my family.

So will you now answer my question? What would you do in the same situation? Do you have a line you would not cross to keep me from throwing rocks at your daughter?
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. But what if you stopped my attacks when you demolished my house.
And now I'm running away and hiding. Can you then destroy my entire town, country until you get me? Because at that point, the damage to your family has stopped and it's just about retribution. Overkill.

Which is what we had last summer.

Yes. I would not destroy you house for the sake of a few rocks. After all, what's a few scrapes and bruises compared to a homeless family? And certainly the street and town and anything beyond puts me not in the role of criminal and I've lost my defense excuse as I've become the aggressor.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. scrapes and bruises is one thing.
you killed my wife, remember? Which is what is going on in this case, it is not bruises we are discussing but lives. Hezbollah is killing people. For no reason at all I might add.

And they did not run and hide last summer, they continued sending rockets until the peace treaty took effect. So your analogy in no way describes what happened last summer.

Israel's demands were very simple. Return the soldiers and cease aggression. You see this as retribution but I fail to see why. It would not help them in any way. The Lebanese people are in no position to bounce Hezbollah, there is no reason to punish them. And it brings huge negatives in terms of public opinion which Israel is mindful of. They did not wantonly destroy anything unconnected to the mission. Only areas connected to Hezbollah were attacked. If civilian areas were hit it was because Hezbollah was firing rockets from rooms they had commandeered from within people's homes. Israel also took pains to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible. Not maximize them as Hezbollah did. At any point the war could have been ended by Hezbollah merely by ceding to Israel's extremely reasonable demands. Had Hezbollah stopped and run away as you implied, then it would be different. Had they returned the soldier and Israel continued the attack you would have a point. But they absolutely did not.

Now, to follow your analogy, you are saying that a few bruises are nothing compared to a homeless family, right? Certainly Lebanon suffered more casualties than Israel did. So at what point does it become worth it? How many years would it take for Hezbollah to unilaterally attack Israel without cause/how many Israelis must be killed before Israel has the right to try and neutralize Hezbollah which we all know will cause untold numbers of casualties?

Because as I see it that is the sole way to neutralize Hezbollah. So unless you have a third suggestion that has not been tried the choice comes down to Israel weathering an undeserved war of attrition or allowing Israel to create havok in Lebanon in the process of ending those attacks for good. (Which would cause real havok. This past summer did not do much in the way of really hurting Hezbollah.) It is a very serious problem.

The question of what to do aside, it is still not reasonable to place the blame squarely on Israel for the damage done in Lebanon. Hezbollah's strategy is to place civilians in danger to use them as cover. While this places Israel in an awkward position it does not negate their need to defend themselves. And ultimately, defending oneself is not the practice of evening the score but of ending the aggressor's ability to harm you. Which I believe may be where your philosophy and mine part company on this subject.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. let me understand...
...the last 6 years of dead and wounded israelis who were well within the intl border....killed by hizballa bombs and missiles....

and the fact that israel did nothing....was from your point of view...the proper reaction?


just need a clarification....and if i did not understand then what would have been?
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. let me understand
you say the sky is red right?

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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. tough question?
...the last 6 years of dead and wounded israelis who were well within the intl border....killed by hizballa bombs and missiles....

and the fact that israel did nothing....was from your point of view...the proper reaction?
________

what makes it so difficult to answer?
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
13. The argument I keep seeing here
is essentially that Lebanon should not be held liable for the actions of Hezbollah. Meaning Israel does not have the right to attack Hezbollah if they will also be damaging Lebanon (seeing as how Hezbollah is PART of Lebanon this is clearly impossible) and any damage Israel does do should be compensated for later as restitution. Lebanon however, should not be held liable for any damage Hezbollah does as Lebanon can not control Hezbollah. Which is true, they may have an obligation to reign in militias operating from their country yet in this case they clearly can't without sparking an extremely bloody civil war. Likewise no one in the international community is interested in roughing it up with Hezbollah, paying the price of Lebanese freedom and Israeli security with their own blood, then getting hit with a bill for Lebanese restitution to boot.

Hezbollah also does not operate under the restrictions that nations do. They can ensure that any attack on them will have a huge civilian cost by hiding their missile launchers inside of civilian homes and by blurring the line between militant and citizen on purpose. Since other nations seem to care much more about avoiding Lebanese casualties than they do Hezbollah ends up with a tremendous advantage. Though they could never actually destroy Israel, no one can actually destroy them either as they have made it so that the human cost would be too high for anyone not in life-threatening danger to stomach. (Or to be politically feasible.)

Yet there is also no diplomatic solution. Hezbollah does not have reasonable or even do-able demands. Seeing as this problem is not going away, what should we do?

Israel should not have any missiles fired at her. If she does, she must be able to defend herself. Lebanon can not allow a non-governmental militia to determine Lebanese policy. While the responsibility really does rest with them, there is no question, they are both unwilling and unable to disarm Hezbollah. They are also unwilling to take responsibility for Hezbollah's actions, even though they operate in a governmental role and are even their own political party.

Trying to get restitution from Israel does not address the real situation, it is just more scapegoating. This situation is not Israel's fault. It is absurd to blame them for attempting to neutralize an army that will not stop attacking them. (Maybe Lebanon should demand restitution from Hezbollah? Put them in Israel's shoes.) Remember, even Saudi Arabia took their side in the beginning of the war last summer. You can blame Israel for doing too much damage, but since Hezbollah is still capable, Israel didn't do ENOUGH damage. The problem is that the amount of damage it would take to neutralize Hezbollah is deemed unacceptable to the world. Yet, it is equally unacceptable to expect Israel to weather any sort of attacks without also giving them the right to do something about it.

So what is the answer?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
25. The United States is also liable for reparations to Lebanon
It was the United States that blocked the UN Security Council from issuing a cease fire to Israel.

America is the gun dealer that gave the gun to the criminal that we knew full well was going to shoot at a lot of innocent people. We are not innocent!
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-17-07 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. I am curious.
What are your thoughts on how to solve the Israel/Hezbollah problem?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Israel withdraws behind the pre-June 1967 borders
that's the necessary first step.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. How does that affect Lebanon? n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Israel is occupying Lebanese lands
and no religious mumbo jumbo about a Supreme Being giving you title to the land can justify Israel's thievery and treachery.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. They are? Where exactly? n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Shebbaa Farms
Just as we have idiots over here that think that GAWD wants America to be a Xtian nation, we have idiots over there that think GAWD has given them the Divine right to take other peoples' land and water. Then we have the other idiots that think that the first two groups of idiots are idiots because they alone submit to GAWD's will.

I often wonder if the world would have been better off had we remained pagan.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Shebaa Farms is Syria.
The UN inspected Israel's 2000 pullout and declared it complete with no Lebanese land remaining under Israeli occupation. Syria can go to the UN and formally transfer ownership of Shebaa Farms to Lebanon but as of yet they have not.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the whole God thing. The occupation of Lebanon had nothing to do with religion and most of Israel is secular anyway. In fact, they are known for arguably having the most successful working examples of Socialism (the Kibbutzes) in history.

And Shebaa Farms is a deserted wasteland with no water.

Do you believe that Hezbollah is within their rights to attack Israel over Shebaa Farms despite the UN declaration? Is this how you see all border disputes, even ones over tiny, worthless plots of land, being solved? Mindless, expansive violence? You must have studied the Stalin school of communism.

Haha. I'm just kidding. I know you didn't study anything.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 04:24 AM
Response to Original message
37. UN envoy asks for records of cluster bomb strikes
JERUSALEM, 22 April 2007 (IRIN) - A UN envoy has asked Israel to hand over detailed electronic records of its cluster bomb strikes on southern Lebanon last summer to help munitions-clearing teams with their task.

Radhika Coomaraswamy, the UN Secretary-General's Special Representative for Children and Armed Conflict, said she had asked Israeli foreign minister Tzipi Livni for the files which are automatically produced when munitions are fired.

"There is a computer sheet generated when targets are attacked. If the mine clearers can get that, they can identify where the cluster munitions are," she said, adding that Livni had told her she would look into the matter.

By last month, 30 people had been killed and 191 injured by mines or unexploded ordnance (UXO) in southern Lebanon since the ceasefire last August. The UN's Mine Action Coordination Centre (MACC) in south Lebanon estimates it has cleared about 10 percent of the estimated one million unexploded cluster munitions lying on the ground.

The Israelis have given mine clearers information about where Israeli landmines are in south Lebanon but not on where cluster bombs were fired, Coomaraswamy said.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/d4b268d88...
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