U.N. ANTI-RACISM BODY SET TO GRILL ISRAEL

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"The UN's top anti-racism committee in Geneva is expected this week to hold Israel accountable for denying residency rights to Palestinians married to Israelis, and for failing to indict those responsible for the deaths of 13 Israeli Arabs in October 2000 riots. These are just two of the many issues regarding Israel's treatment of its Arab citizens and Palestinians in the territories which Israel's Ambassador to the United Nations in Geneva, Yitzhak Levanon, anticipates defending when he appears Thursday and Friday before the UN's Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD), the Jerusalem Post reported.

"We do not have anything to hide. We are coming in good faith," Levanon was quoted as saying by the Jerusalem Post on Monday.

It will be the first time in nine years that Israel will formally appear before the committee to defend its compliance with the convention against racial discrimination which Israel signed in 1979, said Levanon. Israel was one of 173 countries to have ratified this treaty and as such, like all parties, was subject to periodic compliance reviews, he added."

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Politics&loid=8.0.387459228&par=0

[Solo_in_MD]

1. Have to wonder when the UN is going to investigate the complete denial of rights to Jews

in Palestinian held territory, including not being allowed to own property and being murdered for being suspected of being a Jew.

Note I did not say Israeli, I said Jew.

[Jim Sagle]

2. Don't hold your breath waiting for a response from the UN - or from the OP.

[msmcghee]

3. It's quite interesting when you step back . .

. . occasionally to see the big picture.

***************

a) In a campaign that has lasted for 60 years now to destroy the state of Israel - Palestinian Arab militants/terrorists continue to kill Israeli citizens and refine their tactics. Thousands of Israelis have died from these attacks.

b) In Israel's attempts to prevent further attacks life becomes increasingly difficult for Palestinian Arabs in the disputed (UN Res 242) territories under Israeli occupation where those attacks originate from.

c) Israel accused of racism against Arabs.

***************

a) In a campaign that has lasted for 60 years now to destroy the state of Israel - Palestinian Arab militants/terrorists continue to kill Israeli citizens and refine their tactics. Thousands of Israelis have died from these attacks.

b) In Israel's attempts to prevent further attacks life becomes increasingly difficult for Palestinian Arabs in the disputed (UN Res 242) territories under Israeli occupation where those attacks originate from.

c) Some Palestinian Arabs leave the territories.

d) Israel accused of ethnic cleansing against Palestinian Arabs.

***************

a) In a campaign that has lasted for 60 years now to destroy the state of Israel - Palestinian Arab militants/terrorists continue to kill Israeli citizens and refine their tactics. Thousands of Israelis have died from these attacks.

b) IDF kills Palestinian Arab terrorists. Since the terrorists hide among the civilian population and store their weapons and explosives in civilian homes - some Palestinian Arab civilians are killed or injured in the process.

c) Israel accused of genocide against Arabs.

***************


Bizzaro world.

[Violet_Crumble]

14. That's an incredibly one-eyed big picture as well as being a stirring defense of bigotry...

After a while, the one-eyed *Israel Can Do No Wrong, But The Arabs Are Evil!* routine gets a bit boring...

[Totallybushed]

18. Hardly that.

Just a refresingly clear-eyed view of reality on the ground in the Middle East. Do you deny that for 60 years the Arabs (not just the "Palestinians") have been trying to destroy, eradicate, cause to cease to exist, the state of Israel? If so, you are not thinking about the matter seriously.

[cool user name]

20. Yes.

Do you deny that for 60 years the Arabs (not just the "Palestinians") have been trying to destroy, eradicate, cause to cease to exist, the state of Israel?

I do. Do you have credible sources that support the "that for 60 years, the Arabs have been trying to destroy, eradicate, cause to cease to exist, the state of Israel" argument?

[Totallybushed]

21. Well, start with the 1948 war and

continue from there. I lived through those times.

The very definition of a "non-credible" source is one that denies these facts.

has, say, hamas, ever said that they will stop attacking Israel? No! Have they said that they seek the destruction of Israel? YES!!!! Find a credible source that disagrees.

[cool user name]

22. 60 years and yet Israel has expanded in size.

Color me very unimpressed with your original assertion.

Besides, the last Arab-Israeli war (besides Lebanon 1982 and 2006) was 1973. When have "the Arabs" tried to destroy her since then?

[Totallybushed]

23. Do you read history?

Hey. The Arabs started an aggressive war. They lost a little territory as a result. Check the current boundaries of Germany compared to what they were before WW1 or even WW2. so you are unimpressed, eh? Not as much as I am.

As for that last ridiculous sentence of yours, the answer is< "Every day since then." What do you think all the suicide bombings are about? To get a "state" for the "Palestinians". They can't handle, or won't handle, the territory they have now.

Whose fault is that, you ask? Why their own.

Let them show that they can live in peace, and they'll have a state. The people are hard-working, intelligent, and could make a paradise out of the desert, just like the Jews did. But they are very badly led, and they chose those leaders themselves.

[breakaleg]

24. So, the suicide bombers are speaking for ALL Palestinians? That's quite a leap.

Are the militant Israeli Jewish settlers speaking for ALL Israelis as well? According to your logic, they must be. Good to know.

[Totallybushed]

27. No, they are not,

necessarily. You seem to be willing to leap to the most insupportable conclusions based on very little evidence.

However, it is up to the government of the Palestinian territory to suppress the violence. That's what governments do, acquire and enforce the monopoly of violence in their jurisdiction. If they can't, or won't, which is more likely, then the Israelis have to protect themselves and their territory, and far more importantly, their children, who are the innocent victims of the murdering savages who think they are a legitimate 'resistance'.

The Palestinians elected Hamas, a terrorist outfit, to run the government. That's fine; that is their right and their decision. However, they must also accept the consequences of that decision, including the decision of other governments to suspend aid, and the military actions that Israel must use to defend itself.

I feel sorry for them.

[breakaleg]

29. You said Arabs have engaged in violence against Israel for 60 years and

as proof you offered the suicide bombers. You are essentially saying that the suicide bombers represent ALL Palestinians, that they are one in the same. They aren't.

If the consequences of holding elections and democratically electing a government means that Israel withholds money rightfully owed the Palestinians, then the person you need to feel sorry for is Israel. So much for it being a democracy. No good deed goes unpunished.

[Shaktimaan]

30. I don't think he implicated every Palestinian there.

He offered suicide bombing as evidence of the ongoing mission to destroy Israel. I don't think he needs to show that every, single Palestinian/Arab in the world is dedicated to Israel's destruction to demonstrate that such a mission exists. As evidence, see the charters of organizations like the PLO (who actually ARE the sole representatives of the Palestinian people according to the Arab League and the UN) Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hizbollah, al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, PFLP-GC and Al Fatah. All are organizations committed to the destruction of Israel. (The PLO is supposed to alter their goals but have not as of yet.)

They all receive state support for the advancement of their cause by sympathetic governments who have often spoken out in favor of Israel's destruction such as Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Algeria, Morocco, Libya and Qatar. All of these countries have provided material and economic support towards Israel's destruction. There is also a mountain of examples of the leaders and citizens of these countries expressing their desire for Israel's downfall, often in threat form.

So... are you arguing that there has NOT been an ongoing project in the Arab world at large to destroy Israel?

[Violet_Crumble]

37. Yeah, Jordan is really big on destroying Israel!!

Do I need to put the dripping sarcasm icon on the end of that?

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/Israel-Jordan%20Negotiations

And another false claim from you was about the PLO wanting to destroy Israel when anyone who has some knowledge of the I/P conflict is aware that the PLO has recognised Israel's right to exist:

September 9, 1993
Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,
The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era...I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments: The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security. The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338. The PLO commits itself...to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations...the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators...the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

Sincerely,
Yasser Arafat.
Chairman: The Palestine Liberation Organization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition

That trumps any charter, no matter how you look at it. Also, it's interesting to note that the previous Likud govt's charter contained some rather whiffy stuff that no-one ever seemed bothered to worry about:

'The Likud charter calls for the annexation and settlement by Israel of the entire Land of Israel, which comprises what the world calls 1967 Israel, Judea and Samaria/the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights and the City of Jerusalem.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud

[Shaktimaan]

39. The time period in question was over 60 years.

I realize that Jordan is no longer committed to Israel's destruction however they played a long and fruitful role in the history of Arab attempts in that regard so I felt it correct to include them.

As for the letters of recognition, I actually made a reference to them in my above post. (But good lookin' out there.) Although these letters were written years ago, the PLO has yet to submit the proposed changes to their charter as promised. They also neglected to fulfill many of the other critical components outlined in the letter such as renouncing terrorism, violence, assuming responsibility for enforcing pacifism throughout the PLO's elements and personnel, peacefu... heck, I think all of them. I think it's safe to assume they aren't planning on honoring this agreement BUT if they fulfill even just the one promise they made of altering their charter I'll take PLO off my list. How's that for compromise!

That Likud thing was interesting. I never knew about that. Man, what dicks. :crazy:

[cool user name]

25. Yes, I do read history.

By your post, it appears that you don't.

Israel didn't become a state by playing nice. Israel exists as a Jewish state only because of a methodical policy of ethnic cleasning, not refuted by Israeli leaders at the time (see Plan Dalet).

It's also evident that your quotes around "Palestinians" demonstrates your refusal to look at them as a people that are afforded rights under relevant Geneva Conventions and international law - you look at them as one monolithic (and perhaps fake) entity out to destroy Israel because they just simply hate Jews and not because of decades of oppression by the Israeli government.

I see now that debating this issue is not going to get anywhere. You can have the last word on this as I really am not interested in hearing your disingenuous argument.

:shrug:

[Totallybushed]

28. Wrong.

History is full of nations founded by violence. Israel, yes, was onoe. But it exists now and will continue to exist, if it can.

As for the Palestinians, they can avoid oppression by foregoing violence. Why should Israel accept genocide?

I know you are not going to read this, because as you say, the argument isn't going anywhere. One of us is rather blind, and it isn't me.

Bye now.:eyes:

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Holy crap. Now yr accusing the Palestinians of genocide???

As for the Palestinians, they can avoid oppression by foregoing violence. Why should Israel accept genocide?

Y'know, there was recently a few people in another thread who went to great lengths to insist that people who make unfounded accusations of genocide are hate-filled racists....

[Violet_Crumble]

35. Are you denying the Palestinians exist as a people?

To get a "state" for the "Palestinians".

If not, I'm curious to know why you put the quotation marks around the word Palestinian....

[Violet_Crumble]

34. It was exactly what I said it was...

Of course anyone who shares that same one-eyed, Israel Can Do No Wrong stance would disagree...

Well, having studied ME politics, I wasn't aware of that astounding claim of yrs that the Arab states have been trying to destroy, eradicate etc, Israel. So how about you trot out a complete list of Arab countries and try to explain how each one is doing that?

[breakaleg]

4. "Not being allowed to own property"? What would those settlements be?

Why do you have to have a law saying that Jews can own property when they just take what they want? Ask the settlers in Hebron how that works.

[Igel]

6. Try Kfar Darom as a

probative example.

IIRC, it was purchased three times by Jews/Israelis, and each time when Arabs/Palestinians had the opportunity it reverted to being Arab property without compensation.

The PA did not invite Israelis to stay there, nor did they safeguard the property for when the residents return.

While in general what you say is reasonably true (they can just take property), nonetheless I think your example is wrong. The settlers in Hebron claim to have purchased the building they're in (with no approval from the Israeli government).

However, I wouldn't like to see a law saying Jews could own property. I'd like to see a law saying that there are no restrictions on who may own property. After all, we have the glorious Turkish example of property ownership in which everything not permitted is forbidden; I much prefer when "everything that is not forbidden is permitted."

[Solo_in_MD]

7. I was refering to Gaza where if you sell land to a Jew you are to be killed

as well as the new owner and the land confiscated.

[Violet_Crumble]

12. Have you got any evidence to back up that claim?

I think it's only fair to ask that you back up this, preferably using credible sources and not rabid pro-Israeli ones. What I'd like to see is a link to something saying what law it is that does that, as well as examples where that law has been implemented...

[eyl]

31. Several years ago

(I think it was in 1997) the PA made it a capital crime to sell land to Jews*. While AFAIK no-one has been formally executed under that law, there have sveral (somewhere between 10-20, IIRC) Palestinians who were murdered for that "crime"; and the PA security forces were apparently implicated in at least some of the deaths.

*I've been trying to find a link, but most of the news articles I can find are pay-only.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Have to wonder why you so quickly tried to change the subject...

Do you not agree that the refusal of residency to Palestinians married to Israelis is something that should be criticised?

btw, if as you claim (without any evidence to back up such a claim) that people are murdered for being suspected of being a Jew, can you explain why Jews such as Amira Haas and ISM members have dwelt quite happily amongst the Palestinians in Gaza?

[Scurrilous]

16. Israeli girl found wandering through Hebron returned safely home

<snip>

"Palestinian police officers on Friday returned a 3-year-old Israeli girl to the custody of her parents after she was found wandering on her own through the Palestinian part of town.

The girl, whose family resides in city's Jewish Avraham Avinu neighborhood, had crossed the line separating the two parts of town unnoticed to play with local Palestinian children.

Just before nightfall she was spotted and picked up by Palestinian police officers. Thinking she belonged to a Palestinian family, a call went out among the mosques for the child's parents to come claim her.

When Israeli authorities got word of the missing child they realized she was in fact an Israeli girl whose family had reported her as missing earlier in the day and a meeting was arranged to return her safely to her parent's care."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/829663.html

[breakaleg]

17. Great story. Perhaps we should look to the children to solve this mess before they are corrupted

by their parents' points of view.

[cool user name]

19. Huh?

"Palestinian held territory?"

:wtf:

First, Jews can live wherever they want in the Occupied Territories thanks to Israel's apartheid policies so your post is nonsense. The Palestinians are agitating for a state of their own, they are not actively engaged in segregating Jews and Arabs.

[Shaktimaan]

26. please please please tell me you are being facetious.

I would truly hate to think that anyone here is actually so uninformed as to think that. I mean, I know that there are people out there who couldn't find France on a map, let alone Hebron, but I'd imagine that anyone who's interested enough to come to this site and post an opinion on the subject has already spent some time learning the basics.

I know, I'm being a dick. But you ARE kidding, right?

[Violet_Crumble]

38. Could you explain what you find so appallingly inaccurate in that post?

Also, why you totally ignored the incorrect claim in the post that was being replied to that people are murdered in Gaza just for being Jewish?

[oberliner]

5. and Canada, Liechtenstein, and the Czech Republic

They are among the other countries also coming before the committee for their periodic reports during the next session.

COMMITTEE ON ELIMINATION OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION HOLDS MEETINGS IN GENEVA FROM 19 FEBRUARY TO 9 MARCH 2007

The Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination will hold its seventieth session at Palais Wilson in Geneva from 19 February to 9 March 2007 to review anti-discrimination efforts undertaken by the Governments of Antigua and Barbuda, Canada, Democratic Republic of Congo, Czech Republic, India, Israel, Liechtenstein and The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

These countries are among the 173 States parties to the International Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Racial Discrimination. The 18-member Committee, the first body created by the United Nations to review actions by States to fulfil obligations under a specific human-rights agreement, examines reports submitted periodically by States parties on efforts to comply with the Convention. Government representatives generally present the report, discuss its contents with Committee members, and answer questions.

http://www.unog.ch/

[Scurrilous]

8. UN anti-racism panel questions Israel over non-Jewish holy sites

<snip>

"A United Nations anti-racism panel is scheduled to hold a hearing later this week over Israel's attitude toward sites considered holy by its Arab population.

Israel's government has also been asked to explain if it discriminates between Jewish citizens and its Arab citizens in how it provides housing, education, public services, land rights and legal protection against acts of violence, according to a list of issues released by the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination.

The panel of 18 independent experts overseeing compliance with the United Nations' 38-year-old anti-racism treaty has submitted questions in writing on Israel's policy for preserving holy sites and asked the government to explain why it only grants special protection for places considered sacred by Jews.

The committee asked for a clarification over the fact that to date, 120 places have been declared holy sites, all of which are Jewish. The list of questions was formulated before the recent furor over a construction project in Jerusalem that some Muslims have charged could damage the Al-Aqsa Mosque.

Israel - whose quadrennial review was postponed in August because of the Lebanon war - is to appear before the panel on Thursday and Friday to answer the questions, which include whether it has set forth regulations in relation to holy sites of both the Jewish and non-Jewish population."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/827771.html

[Shaktimaan]

9. ????

The panel of 18 independent experts overseeing compliance with the United Nations' 38-year-old anti-racism treaty has submitted questions in writing on Israel's policy for preserving holy sites and asked the government to explain why it only grants special protection for places considered sacred by Jews.

Since when does Israel do that? Are you saying that the church of the holy sepulchre is not protected? As far as al aqsa goes, don't forget that it is also the holiest place around for Jews. Any holy sites that have been damaged in these areas has been, to my knowlege, under Jordan's rule, not Israel's. But no one seemed to mind then, did they?

[breakaleg]

10. in the next sentence it says the following:

The committee asked for a clarification over the fact that to date, 120 places have been declared holy sites, all of which are Jewish.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. I just went and tried to find a list, but had no luck...

All I found was this in a Ha'aretz article:

'An attempt to obtain official data proved fruitless. The Ministry of Religious Affairs was dismantled and transferred to the Prime Minister`s Office. But sources in the Prime Minister`s Office explained to me that responsibility for holy places has been assigned to the Interior Ministry. At the Interior Ministry, it was explained to me that responsibility had in fact been transferred to the Tourism Ministry, but it would be worthwhile asking at the Prime Minister`s Office. By press time, the Prime Minister`s Office had not gotten back to me. Based on a petition filed last year by Adalah the Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, it emerges that there is no list in Israel of Muslim holy places. An official list of places that are holy to Jews, on the other hand, has existed since the 1970s at the Religious Affairs Ministry.'

http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=8422

[Shaktimaan]

15. I looked around

and found this.

Yaron Frost, a spokesman for the tourism ministry, said Israel has not given the special designation to any sites _ even Jewish ones _ for nearly four decades. He said non-Jewish sites have ”total autonomy.”
”Israel doesn’t interfere by making declarations about the regulation of holy sites that are not Jewish out of a sensitivity for the religions involved and a concern that declaring a site holy would be seen as interference in the oversight,” he said.
Two weeks ago, Israeli archaeologists began the salvage dig ahead of the construction of a new pedestrian walkway up to the disputed hilltop compound, which is at the heart of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
”Most holy places are also considered as antiquities sites,” Israel said in 2005 submission to the panel, arguing that Muslim sites are still protected under its law.
The Jewish state referred in the 124-page report to a pending High Court decision over whether the government was required to offer Muslim holy places the same status as Jewish religious sites. Nevertheless, it said several existing statues protect holy places by requiring excavation, drainage, sewage and demolition projects to first seek government permission if they are near religious sites _ Jewish or non-Jewish.

http://news.bostonherald.com/international/middleEast/view.bg?articleid=183786

So, we'll see the results after thursday and friday. I knew that al-aqsa was overseen by the waqf and not Jewish interests and it isn't like there is no protection or designation for it. The question is whether being named as an official holy site as opposed to an antiquities site brings a higher privilege of protection. 120 holy sites for Israel is very few. That means that only the biggest things are registered, not individual synagogues or temples.

[Scurrilous]

32. HR Organizations Testify about Israel's Ongoing Policy of Population Transfer

Full Title: HR Organizations Testify about Israel's Ongoing Policy of Population Transfer to the UN's Antiracism Body

<snip>

"The UN's antiracism monitoring body, the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD), questioned Israel about its institutionalized discrimination against Palestinians inside Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.

Ten human rights NGOs, including Israeli, Palestinian and international organizations, briefed CERD and documented how Israel bestows certain economic, social and cultural rights, privileges and benefits solely on its citizens holding Jewish nationality.

"This discriminatory practice has resulted in the systematic dispossession of the indigenous Palestinian population, including over five million refugees. Over 20 human rights organizations also presented a joint parallel report to CERD, documenting Israel's breaches of the antiracism treaty," said a press release by the organizations.

Joseph Schechla, coordinator of the Habitat International Coalition's Housing and Land Rights Network, characterized Israel's Basic Laws and parastatal institutions such as the World Zionist Organization/Jewish Agency, and the Jewish National Fund as "principal agents in carrying out Israel's material discrimination against non-Jewish citizens and long-expelled refugees who inhabited the country before the creation of the state of Israel."

He noted also that, "while these organizations carry out internationally prohibited population transfer as their central task, they nonetheless operate as charitable institutions in many Western countries."

Gareth Gleed, legal researcher at Al Haq, a human rights organization based in the occupied Palestinian territories, pointed out that "within the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, Israel's policy of separation is inherently discriminatory and based on clear violations of international law."

http://www.wafa.ps/english/body.asp?id=9330

[Shaktimaan]

33. 2 quick questions.

1. What is Israel's ongoing policy of population transfer? What exactly are they referring to?

Joseph Schechla, coordinator of the Habitat International Coalition's Housing and Land Rights Network, characterized Israel's Basic Laws and parastatal institutions such as the World Zionist Organization/Jewish Agency, and the Jewish National Fund as "principal agents in carrying out Israel's material discrimination against non-Jewish citizens and long-expelled refugees who inhabited the country before the creation of the state of Israel."

He noted also that, "while these organizations carry out internationally prohibited population transfer as their central task, they nonetheless operate as charitable institutions in many Western countries."

2. What prohibited population transfers do the mentioned basic laws or organizations act in support of? What material discrimination against arab-israelis are they agents in carrying out? Seriously, what specific policies or actions is this assertion based on?