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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:56 AM
Original message
New Intifada coming Daily humiliation on roads will lead to another Palestinian uprising
Yehuda Litani Published: 12.29.06, 09:39




In the last days of 2006, an Arab friend who is an Israeli citizen offered that I join him on a drive from Jerusalem to Ramallah and back. "I want to drive one of my employees who lives in Ramallah to her home come with us so you can see with your own eyes what happens on those roads," the friend said. After all, most Israelis are unaware of what's happening there. We passed through the neighborhoods of Shuafat and Beit Hanina quickly, yet when we reached the Dahiat al-Barid neighborhood on the outskirts of Ramallah, the story started to unfold.



At the heart of the neighborhood (still within the boundaries of greater Jerusalem) near the separation fence (wall), a roadblock was positioned on the main road to Ramallah along with three Border Guard police officers who prevented cars from passing through (including our car, which bore Israeli license plates.)



The Ramallah resident we were driving (an Arab Israeli married to a resident of the West Bank) recommended that the driver turn right to a dirt road that bypasses the fence. We droved over stones and potholes for about 20 minutes until we again reached the main road, all the way to the Kalandiya refugee camp and from there to Ramallah. Not even one police officer or soldier stopped us on the way there, which took about an hour and a half. Before the separation fence was erected, this drive would take 15 minutes at most.



Our passenger told us that the drives to Jerusalem and back take three hours or more in total. Now the real story begins, she said, as the drive to Jerusalem is much more difficult than the drive to Ramallah. Indeed, we spent almost three hours on the road in an annoying wait amidst hundreds of cars belonging to Palestinian West Bank residents and Israeli settlers, until the long-awaited-for arrival at the Pisgat Ze'ev neighborhood roadblock, where a grim-faced female soldier was checking IDs.



<snip>

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3345986,00.ht...
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Great peice. I have to believe that if more people witnessed things like this and
took the time to look at these people as individuals, their opinions would change. We here much more about the Israeli side than the Palestinians.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. It is a great piece and what really
struck me is the author stating so plainly that the wall and the checkpoints really don't make Israel more secure; not only can these measures be thwarted, but the anger and resentment that this humiliation engender, will inevitably erupt endangering both Israelis and Palestinians.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I wish you (or someone) could explain this.
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 12:42 PM by msmcghee
The author says that the checkpoints don't make Israel safer. Just recently, a DU member who actually lives in Israel and seems to have some military experience (eyl) there offered this comment:

************************************************

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
#32

I've often seen the argument

that obviously the checkpoints aren't motivated by security, since most of them are inside the West Bank. That argument misses the reason the checkpoints exist*.

The checkpoints have several related functions:

1) They give the IDF more opportunities to intercept an attacker. Were the checkpoints solely on the Line, there's one point at which he may be caught (unless there's advance intelligence so the police may set up roadblocks)

2) They serve to intercept materiel or personnel in transit - for example, bombs being transported from one Palestinian town to another in preperation for a future attack.

3) They serve to make travel more difficult. This seems obvious on its face, but should be considered more carefully. First of all (and this also relates to #1), you have to understand that the distances in many places between the Green Line and Israeli towns is very small - which means there's little time to make any intercepts, and little margin for error (for example, you can reach the Israeli town of Kfar Saba from the Palestinian town of Kalkilya in around 20 minutes or so on foot, IIRC). Checkpoints force any potential attacker to go out of his way to avoid them, making it take much longer for him to reach his target and giving the Israeli security forces more time to catch him.

*Mind you, I'm ignoring here the fact that the IDF is also responsible to prevent Palestinian terrorists from attacking settlements, in which case checkpoints on the Line are obviously ineffective

*****************************

These seem like reasonable points to me. I can understand why Palestinians hate the checkpoints and the humiliation. Yet, Israeli deaths due to suicide bombers are way down - despite that Palestinian militants pledge almost daily now to renew and re-energize their attacks on Israeli citizens - despite that one Palestinian militant leader admitted that they have not been able to fire rockets into Israel from the WB because the IDF has the area so well under control that they can not establish the workshops necessary to build them - and despite that the number of attempts has gone up sharply.

While I understand how difficult it must be for the Palestinians - I can't help but wonder why they don't demand that attempts to attack Israel from the WB be stopped. Wouldn't that be a simple solution that would cost nothing and that would benefit both sides?

You must be seeing something that I missed. Could you explain your reasoning or show me where I am wrong?

PS - I would add that if I wanted to smuggle a bomb into Israel and faced several checkpoints along the way (even if IDF policy at each checkpoint was unpredictable) I would realize that if I was caught at any one of those I would both fail in my mission and would probably spend the next several years of my life in prison. That seems like a fairly powerful deterrent to me that would make my mission far more difficult.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I think you missed the point of the article. The point was the great cost these checkpoints
have on Palestinians and what will be an inevitable reaction from the Palestinians should they continue. They can only take so much before they fight back.

Does the effect of these roadblocks on the lives of Palestinians mean anything to you?
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I think I questioned the point of the article.
I didn't miss it.

I would suggest that from the Israeli point of view the Palestinian militants are already doing everything they can to kill Israeli citizens - even violating the ceasefire in Gaza on a daily basis.

It would seem to me that making the Palestinians lives easier - like by leaving Gaza entirely for example - doesn't seem to reduce their attempts to kill Israelis at all.

Maybe you can suggest why Israel should just make killing Israelis easier for them by dismantling the checkpoints. This is a serious question I am asking - not just an answer to your rather inane post above. It would be therapeutic for both of us if you actually tried to answer it.

You ask rhetorically, "Does the effect of these roadblocks on the lives of Palestinians mean anything to you?"

Actually it does. I hate to see suffering of innocent people on both sides of the border. That's why I am trying to seek a solution that would actually result in less death and suffering for everyone concerned. The problem is that you and many others seem to think that the attacks against Israel are justified and therefore stopping them seems unjustified.

As long as you think about the conflict in those terms (that it's OK for Palestinians to attack Israeli civilians but not OK for the Israelis to try to stop them) it will continue and many more innocent civilians will die unnecessary deaths and injury. How sad.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. You ask . .
"Perhaps you can explain to me how Palestinians lives are easier?"

Without getting into the real reasons that Egypt and the EU are limiting the flow of goods and persons into and out of Gaza . .

It seems to me that not having the IDF roaming the streets of Northern Gaza in tanks and APC's searching for rocket launch teams and rocket mfg workshops and wanted terrorists would be worth something in terms of peace and quiet.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Are their lives better as you claimed? They are starving. I'll take your answer as a no.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:09 PM
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. I asked you to provide some proof that they are starving.
For some reason it was deleted. So I'll ask it again for the record even though you won't have an answer.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I'm sure you've read the same reports I have, many of which have come from this site.
But here was my first hit on google: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/766876.html

I'm sure you won't be satisfied with any information I post, as you clearly have blinders on not to be aware of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza at the moment.

I guess the mods found something offensive in it. It had nothing to do with me.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Thanks for the link.
Th article states that Gaza is hungry, not starving. Also that UNRWA is providing relief. If Israel has closed all the borders as you claim, how is UNWRA getting in with supplies?

I agree that life is difficult for the Palestinians in Gaza. Do you think it would be this difficult for them if the Palestinians did not use Israel's evacuation of Gaza as an excuse to start manufacturing rockets and firing them into Israel?

Do you think their borders would be more open right now if they weren't still firing the rockets and using the border crossings to smuggle more weapons and explosives in to attack Israel?

Will you ever place the blame for the Palestinians' woes where it rightfully belongs?

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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Dozens of humanitarian groups can attest to the emergency in the Occupied
Territories of West Bank and especially Gaza.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. You don't understand is why resistance continues even after all these punitive measures
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 01:43 PM by Tom Joad
against the whole Palestinian population.

Why don't Palestinians accept Israeli domination and give up?
Why don't they just give their homes and their farms away, move into the small overcrowded population centers Israel will allow them to live in... or leave Palestine completely?

Isn't that the peaceful resolution Israel is looking for?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:04 PM
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. my posts are tiresome, yet you ask for a response from me?
Fascinating.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Yes, a response that isn't so tiresome. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:26 PM
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #6
26. you ask....i shall answer...and perhaps you can reply?
There is no question that the palestenains (percentages vary) want to live in peace..either in gaza, the westbank and/or in all of israel without israel.

the question you dare not answer, is the question that most israelis have:

if israel would withdraw to agreed upon negotiated settlement (whatever the boders are), assuming a PA govt that can actually govern, and the kassams start hitting jersualsm, hadera, and other israeli population centers....

what will you suggest israel do?...something that would actually work....Plan A and Plan B since there are no guarantees of anything.
___________

a direct and simply quesion from "Joe israeli, just another guy who wants to live in peace.....but has his doubts about Iran, Hamas, Syrian, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Hizballa etc)

_________

I cant recall ever getting a serious reply from all those who criticize israeli policies....so this is another chance to really spell it out for some of us.


the idea that once there is a negotiated settlement and all the jihadnikim will lay down their arms was clarified with gazas negotiated withdrawl...the kassams didnt stop, hence its pretty clear that scenario will repeat itself on the westbank given the chance.....of course if you think otherwise, perhaps take the time to explain?




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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. How about answering the questions in the post you just replied to n/t
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. granted you are not tom...however..
Edited on Sat Dec-30-06 02:21 AM by pelsar
since you asked i shall answer..and i respectfully request that you do the same of tom...ask him to reply to mine, just as you are asking me to reply to his: I believe thats quite reasonable of me... Fair enough?

You don't understand is why resistance continues even after all these punitive measures
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 07:43 PM by Tom Joad
against the whole Palestinian population.

Why don't Palestinians accept Israeli domination and give up?
Why don't they just give their homes and their farms away, move into the small overcrowded population centers Israel will allow them to live in... or leave Palestine completely?

Isn't that the peaceful resolution Israel is looking for?


I understand quite well why the Palestinians are resisting the "punitive measures" and in fact its quite reasonable to expect that they would (actually they were also resisting before the "punitive" measures, so thats not really the issue-is it?....most of us israelis understand that quite well. We've seen quite a few "check post" documentaries, exposes, shows, exhibitions, editorials, experiences etc about the lines the Palestinians wait in, while the israeli cars go zipping by", the settlers and their "doings". So we are quite aware of the massive frustration that they live and why they resist. Our problem, should be obvious, with past experiences of every age group, every social group, every education level of the Palestinians carrying bombs and knifes, from a security point of view, the whole Palestinian population is in essence a "suspect".....hence the lines and checks, and consequently, we assume in fact that the Resistance will continue until...well, probably after were gone from the west bank.

In order to stop the "resistance and punitive measures" someone has to give, do something that shows the "other side" some good will. Stop part of the "punitive measures" so that part of the resistance will also stop. At that point both aspects can be expanded upon...less "punitive measures" less resistance...sounds reasonable, doesn't it? At least that the logic i am hearing.

I personally believe it has to be done in small steps so that the PA (or whomever is in charge) will be able to take control and not let the various jihadnikim take advantage of the security holes and send in their "resistance bombers"..but thats from the israeli pov.....

Unfortunately for those who claim the checkpoints are all punitive (some no doubt are-a local commanders initiative), the actual numbers of successful suicide bombers, attacks on israelis etc are way way down...and with that its probably safe to assume a higher rise in "frustration level and resistance" as the checkpoints remain through out the west bank

quite the dilemma:
more checkpoints, higher resistance, fewer successful attacks.....or as in the past: fewer checkpoints, more dead israelis

______

so do you think tom will give me an answer that actually address the points in a logical rational way based on the past events? Or alteratilvy i also accept a "belief answer", one not based on actual events just the belief that 'peace will break out"...... I obviously will not agree, and will definitly place such a belief in the catagory of the "true believer" (as i do with the settlers, the hamas, christian right, etc)..but it will at least clarify things, and i will then pretty much stop "questioning him and his beliefs"......I'll leave it up to you to ask him.


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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. If the checkpoints are solely to prevent suicide bombers, why engage in humiliation of Palestinians?
There was a story posted here recently where a woman was pregnant, bleeding and gave birth at one of the checkpoints and one of her babies died. I've read the risk of giving birth at a checkpoint is a serious one and the infant mortality rate is much higher than it ought to be.

I read recently that Palestinians stand and act a certain way so as not to get "punished" by the IDF as they wait for hours.

There are many many more stories like that. Those acts I described and the many I read about are not about security, they are about punishment.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. there are may stories/experiences of the humiliation....
Edited on Sat Dec-30-06 03:08 AM by pelsar
at the checkpoints.....if you want to compare, the security at El Al for instance double (triple?) checks arab israelis and others in much more subtle ways without the humiliation....at the sametime many of the palestenains also "goad" the soldiers.

Case in point: about a year ago, a palestenian had his violen case checked, he then started to play....it made front page news IDF soldier humiliating palestenain. The soldier denied it, the palestenain violin player, never denied nor admitted..didnt say anything.....so there is sort of a cat and mouse game going on between the two in many other ways as well.

ambulances: when the soldiers get orders to close down the checkpoint, or not allow cars because of a threat, they do it, reguardless of the "emergency'...ambulances have been found with bombs. Last i heard the IDF rushes doctors to the scene of births (cant confirm this, read it somewhere a while back).

In order to reduce the humiliation by the soldiers (who are not professional security people) the IDF is placing in "less personal systems."....At first the checkpoints were all temporary as it was felt this is not going to last....well since it appears so, the systems are now being changed to be more efficient, train certain soldiers for those jobs and get the rest out of there....

if you wondering if i am going to defend those actions....no i am not, its a result of having "kids" with too much power" at those checkpoints. (in the case of Nahal Haredi-an experiment with the ultra religious in the army... a case of too much religion)
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. That's it?
When you said you'd answer questions (although I know it was not to me) I expected more or a response. I believe this issue warrants more of a response and has more of an impact on the actions and feelings of the Palestinians than you seem to give it credit for.

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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. what are you looking for?....
Edited on Sat Dec-30-06 12:55 PM by pelsar
i think i missed something.....I'm afraid i cant write with emotion about that what i dont know about.... i can write about what i have experienced, which is looking into their faces as they line up for lines that seem to go on for ever....

i can write about how their children are afraid and the look upon their faces when soldiers burst in to their house at 2:00am to arrest somebody

conversely i can write about the soldiers who missed the Palestinian with the bomb who then blew up 20 israelis and the feelings of guilt they have for being too lenient, for letting their human emotions take over.

i can write about the the soldiers scanning the Palestinians in line looking for that odd object, or movement that might give away the bomb they are hiding, while at the sametime seeing the childs/grandmothers face waiting in the rain....knowing that the situation simply sucks.

which emotions and for which sides?.....I 've got quite a few years of experience in gaza and the westbank, with emotional stories for both sides.....
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I'm hardly looking for emotion.
You said there were many stories of humiliation and went on to tell one from the Israeli point of view.

Clearly there has been no move towards peace in a long time. From what I've read, the treatment at the checkpoints rather than being a one-off (as you seem to be implying) is more like standard operating procedure. As is written in this article it's this treatment that leads to the creation of suicide bombers. So rather than reacting to the end result, why not address the root cause?
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. time line
Edited on Sat Dec-30-06 05:26 PM by pelsar
As is written in this article it's this treatment that leads to the creation of suicide bombers

the suicide bombers started way before the checkpoints......only after did the bombers appear did the checkpoints start appearing and the checks become more rigorous. And they kept on increasing as the bombers kept on getting through. Previous to the bombers they were few and far between with only a simply id check on random cars and people (or those fitting a person being looked for).

so to answer your question and the articles insuation, the sucide bombers are not a result of the checkpoints, its the opposite. And if you had listened to the suicide bombers farewell video they would always address the zionist enemy and the occupation (including haifa and tel aviv for some), never the checkposts.

as far as the humilation....it was sop then the people who watch the checkpoints like machom watch, would be in the news a lot more than they are, as that is what they are looking for.....so its reasonable to assume that it doesnt actually happen that much. (as they are rarely in the news).

and the numbers speak for themselves, before the checkposts, before the wall, we had lots of bombs going off in israel...now we have virtually none......
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Doesn't the occupation include checkpoints? Aren't checkpoints one of the ways in which
the daily lives of Palestinians are affected and disrupted? To think that they have no impact on the feelings of the Palestinians towards Israel, is choosing to ignore the obvious.

All I can say is the occupation will come back to haunt Israel at some point. You can't suppress them forever and expect them to take it.
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. pelsar -
Aren't Israelis also routinely searched? I know there are metal detectors everywhere now. Are bags searched in stores and stuff?

(Clearly not the same as a checkpoint just a matter of idle curiosity.)
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. searching israelis is routine...
shopping malls, resturants, etc.....there are guards at the door, entrance to the parking garage, bags are opened, cars checked...etc.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Fair enough...
I have a few disagreements with what you said, but I won't clog up the thread with them. It's up to Tom as to whether he wants to answer yr questions or not, but if yr interested in my answers to them, let me know and I'll fire away :)
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. of course you disagree with me...
and one day...when you "see the light" you will say to yourself: Gosh, that pelsar was just so right..why did i waste so much bandwidth disagreeing with him". but until that times comes...fire away!
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #31
42. Here's my stab at an answer...
fwiw, I do think yr spot on the money with some things you say, but there's other things I just can't see myself ever agreeing on...

Anyway, here's the question...

if israel would withdraw to agreed upon negotiated settlement (whatever the boders are), assuming a PA govt that can actually govern, and the kassams start hitting jersualsm, hadera, and other israeli population centers....

what will you suggest israel do?...something that would actually work....Plan A and Plan B since there are no guarantees of anything.


And my answer is:

Because you mentioned a negotiated settlement, I'm assuming a Palestinian state would be in place and all outstanding issues such as Jerusalem and refugees would have been addressed along the lines that started at Taba. In that situation (and I hope it's one that eventuates) the only pissed off people are going to be the extremists on both sides who don't want peace. In the likelihood that Palestinian extremists did decide to fire rockets into Israel, a stable Palestinian government with everything to lose by not stamping down on an attack on Israel should be in a position to put a stop to such attacks. In the eventuality that a stable Palestinian govt was involved in such attacks or chose not to stop them (and I really can't see any motive for them to be involved), then Israel has every right to respond to an attack on it by another sovereign state, and I'd support such action...
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-05-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. wishful thinking
In the likelihood that Palestinian extremists did decide to fire rockets into Israel, a stable Palestinian government with everything to lose by not stamping down on an attack on Israel should be in a position to put a stop to such attacks.

True. But we can draw a parallel between this hypothetical future scenario and the current history of the PA following the Oslo Accords. Israel gave the Palestinians a lot of help at that time. They helped provide resources for the PA's establishment. They pulled out of the West Bank militarily, ceding police and administrative duties to the PA. They ended checkpoints. They provided incentives for Israelis to hire Palestinian workers and participate in trade with the territories. In short, they gave the PA every opportunity to practice self-determination.

The settlements, Jerusalem, right-of-return, all that could be figured out later. You know the old saw about the Middle East... "If success is defined as being nothing short of a ratified treaty then we are destined to fail forever. Rather, success is attained every day that war is prevented, or even just delayed for a little while."

The PA had every reason to prevent renewed attacks against Israel, they had everything to lose by allowing them. Yet no action was taken against Hamas when they denounced Oslo and stepped up suicide attacks inside the green line. Consider that for a moment. This happened right away. Before Israel began increasing settlement populations, before military reprisals against Palestinian cities, etc. Hamas used the advantages of greater mobility and freedom given to them under Oslo to better organize and carry out terrorist attacks, which greatly increased.

Look at this statement by Ziyad Abu'Ein of Fatah during an interview on Alam TV July 4, 2006.

"The Oslo Accords were not what the Palestinian people dreamt of. The dream of the Palestinian people is the return, self-determination, the establishment of an independent Palestinian state, and the liberation of its land. However, there would have been no resistance in Palestine if not for Oslo. It was Oslo that strongly embraced the Palestinian resistance. All the occupied territories - and I was one of the activists in the first and second Intifadas, and I was arrested by Israel several times... If not for Oslo, there would have been no resistance. Throughout the occupied territories, we could not move a single pistol from one place to another. If not for Oslo, the weapons we got through Oslo, and if not for the "A" areas of the Palestinian Authority, if not for the training, the camps, the protection provided by Oslo, and if not for the release of thousands of Palestinian prisoners through Oslo - this Palestinian resistance could not have carried out this great Palestinian Intifada, with which we confronted the Israeli occupation."

Palestinian resistance is often seen as being justified by the harsh system imposed by the occupation, particularly to Westerners. But it is not the cause of it. Not by any stretch of the imagination. It is the other way around. The hallmarks of oppression under the occupation such as checkpoints or the wall are a direct result of Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians. You can go as far back as you like and at each new era in this long conflict, from the very first Arab Uprising, every single time you will notice that Palestinian violence predates the Israeli security measures that are so often used as justification for resistance. And every time Israel has relaxed those restrictions Palestinians have used it as an opportunity to increase the level of violence. So forgive me if I am skeptical of the notion that the intifada will vanish once Israel ends the occupation. There will always be an excuse to continue fighting. Just look at Shebaa Farms.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-06-07 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. ~Start Wars Ep III - Revenge of the Nazi-Arabs~
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-06-07 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Only if I make the mistake of thinking Oslo gave the Palestinians an independent state...
The scenario I spoke of was one where Israel and the Palestinians had negotiated a peaceful settlement of the conflict, all outstanding issues were resolved, and an independent and viable Palestinian state was created. There's no parallel between that and the Oslo Accords, which were a series of confidence building steps with negotiations over things like statehood etc to happen at the end of that time (I think from memory it was to be five years)...

But seeing we're on the topic of Oslo, while yr post painted a picture of an Israel bending over backwards to give, give, give, the reality is very different and both sides were to blame for the failure of Oslo.

The scenario I spoke of was one where Israel and the Palestinians had negotiated a peaceful settlement of the conflict, all outstanding issues were resolved, and an independent and viable Palestinian state was created. There's no parallel between that and the Oslo Accords, which were a series of confidence building steps with negotiations over things like statehood etc to happen at the end of that time (I think from memory it was to be five years)...

But seeing we're on the topic of Oslo, while yr post painted a picture of an Israel bending over backwards to give, give, give, the reality is very different and both sides were to blame for the failure of Oslo. Neither side handled the extremists in their populations properly and both were seen as not doing enough to stop them. Some of yr post is incorrect, btw. Israel did not end the checkpoints - in fact, under Oslo the checkpoints grew. Israel didn't withdraw from the West Bank. Oslo II divided the West Bank into three areas (A, B, & C). Area A consisted of a small percentage of the West Bank and was to be under Palestinian civil control. Area B was larger but the control by the Palestinians was limited and when it came to security, it was a joint Israeli/Palestinian responsibility (a bit hard to do if as you claim Israel had withdrawn from the West Bank). Area C was the largest area making up over 70% of the West Bank and it included all Israeli settlements. Area C was to remain under total Israeli control...
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. but you can try with tom...
Edited on Sat Dec-30-06 09:51 AM by pelsar
just as you asked me in the public forum to answer his questions...i believe it would appropriate for you to ask tom in the same public forum to answer mine...whether he can and or wants to answer is up to him......
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Deleted message
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