The “Hoax” That Wasn’t: The July 23 Qana (Lebanon) Ambulance Attack

[oblivious]

Introduction
During the Israel-Hezbollah war, Israel was accused by Human Rights Watch and numerous local and international media outlets of attacking two Lebanese Red Cross ambulances in Qana on July 23, 2006. Following these accusations, some websites claimed that the attack on the ambulances “never happened” and was a Hezbollah-orchestrated “hoax,” a charge picked up by conservative commentators such as Oliver North. These claims attracted renewed attention when the Australian foreign minister stated that “it is beyond serious dispute that this episode has all the makings of a hoax.”

In response, Human Rights Watch researchers carried out a more in-depth investigation of the Qana ambulance attacks. Our investigation involved detailed interviews with four of the six ambulance staff and the three wounded people in the ambulance, on-site visits to the Tibnine and Tyre Red Cross offices from which the ambulances originated to review their records and meet with supervisors, an examination of the ambulances that were struck, an on-site visit to the Qana site where the attack took place, and interviews with others such as international officials with the International Committee of the Red Cross who were involved in responding to the attack on the night it happened.

On the basis of this investigation, we conclude that the attack on the ambulances was not a hoax: Israeli forces attacked two Lebanese Red Cross ambulances that night in Qana, almost certainly with missiles fired from an Israeli drone flying overhead. The physical and testimonial evidence collected by Human Rights Watch disproves the allegations of a “hoax,” made by persons who never visited Lebanon and had no opportunity to assess the evidence first-hand. Those claiming a hoax relied on faulty conjectures based on a limited number of photographs of one of the ambulances.

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/mena/qana1206/

Also discussed here in September:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=148879

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Thanks for the information

so good to see some followup on stories from a while back.

[My Veracity]

2. I never had a doubt... N/T

[newyawker99]

9. Hi My Veracity!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[oblivious]

10. Welcome to DU My Veracity. I had my doubts at the time.

So I appreciate HRW's search for the truth.

[Jcrowley]

3. Thanks for the update

after these stories pass we often forget to follow-up and get the skinny.

Kudos to you.

[oblivious]

6. Kudos to Human Rights Watch for following up.

I wonder if zombietimes will add anything to their August critique of the media coverage of this attack.

http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/

[Jcrowley]

8. Unlikely

"If you have more evidence about the ambulance incident discussed on this page, above and beyond what is presented here, or if you have comments or corrections, send an email to zombietime here."

At your link they offer this opportunity.

[stillcool]

4. what I hate most about...

lying liars and the lies they tell, is that when the truth does finally come out, it is as a footnote. The lies are broadcast, amplified, and backed up by many, while the truth arrives in shadows, barely even a whisper.

[Zhade]

5. Kick for the truth.

The Israelis really need better leaders than rapists and war criminals - they deserve better!

[oberliner]

15. so does the US nt

[leftchick]

7. Is that the one where one of the EMTs was killed

as if I had any doubt it happened, at least they followed up on one of the atrocities.

[oblivious]

11. No one was killed. (links courtesy of zombietime.com)

Lebanon/Israel - ICRC Bulletin 03 / 2006
...The latest of these incidents occurred on 23 July, at 11.15 pm in Cana, a village in southern Lebanon. According to Lebanese Red Cross reports, two of its ambulances were struck by munitions, although both vehicles were clearly marked by the red cross emblem and flashing lights that were visible at a great distance. The incident happened while first-aid workers were transferring wounded patients from one ambulance to another. As a result, nine people including six Red Cross volunteers were wounded. "The ICRC is gravely concerned about the safety of medical staff ", said Balthasar Staehelin, the organization's delegate-general for the Middle East and North Africa. "We have raised this issue with the Israeli authorities and urged them to take the measures needed to avoid such incidents in the future."

Among other incidents of this type, on 19 July the Society's first-aid station in Insarieh was damaged, as were two ambulances. A first-aid worker suffered minor injuries. On 18 July, an ambulance received a direct hit while on a first-aid and evacuation mission.
http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList577/1FE66CF8A9A9FEF2C12571B5005F59A0

Where No One Is Safe
...As Shaalan closed the back of the ambulance, however, a missile punched through the roof of the vehicle and exploded inside. "There was a boom, a big fire and I was thrown backwards. I thought I was dead," Shaalan recalls. He opened his eyes and checked himself to see if he was hurt. One of his colleagues, Nader Joudi, was standing, but the third member of the team, Mohammed Hassan, was unconscious. One of the Tibnine medics put through an emergency call to the Red Cross operations room in Tyre that they were under attack. Then a second missile struck the other ambulance. Hassan started regaining consciousness as the medics, all of them hurt, hauled the family out of the back of the ambulance and carried them into a neighboring building. Several more missiles exploded on the road and around the building. The two adults and the boy were lucky to survive, but all had received more wounds. The father's leg was severed by the exploding missile and he was losing blood fast.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1218752,00.html

Red Cross ambulances destroyed in Israeli air strike on rescue mission
The ambulance headlamps were on, the blue light overhead was flashing, and another light illuminated the Red Cross flag when the first Israeli missile hit, shearing off the right leg of the man on the stretcher inside. As he lay screaming beneath fire and smoke, patients and ambulance workers scrambled for safety, crawling over glass in the dark. Then another missile hit the second ambulance.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1828142,00.html

Ambulance drivers tell tales of horror
...An ambulance from Tebnine met the crew from Tyre in the mountain town of Qana. The three patients were settling into the back of the ambulance. Shaalan said he was swinging the back door shut when everything around him was engulfed in a flash of light.

``A big fire came toward me, like in a dream. I thought I was dying, at first," Shaalan said. ``Then I opened my eyes, and I could see. I thought everyone in the ambulance was dead."

A rocket or missile had made a direct hit through the roof, Shaalan said, severing one patient's right leg. Shaalan took cover in a nearby building.
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/07/25/ambulance_drivers_tell_tales_of_horror/

Agonies anew for team on the side of the angels
QASIM Chaalan thought he had died in the burning haze of the missile strike.

But it gradually dawned on him that he was still there, inside the ambulance. He still felt his body and, opening his eyes, could still see.

Chaalan and the other medics were lucky: they survived a direct hit from an Israeli missile. One of the dazed medics fumbled slowly for the radio and began: "We have an accident …"

He failed to finish the sentence because a second missile smashed into the ambulance behind them.

Six Red Cross volunteers were wounded in Sunday's attack, and the injured family they were ferrying to safety suffered fresh agonies.

A middle-aged man lost his leg, his mother was partly paralysed, and shrapnel pierced a little boy's head.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/we-have-an-accident/2006/07/25/1153816182440.html

On a mission of mercy with Lebanon Red Cross

...Everyone a target
At the Red Cross headquarters in Tyre, I spoke to Kassem Chaalan, 28, who told me about being in an ambulance that was struck by a missile. When the armament struck the vehicle, he says, it hit the Red Cross symbol on the roof dead-on.

The volunteer thought at first that had died — he said the blast blew him back 15 to 25 feet. “I thought I was just dreaming and that I was dead — there was no way that I was alive,” he said.

Chaalan says he’s lucky to be alive. He has a small wound to his left knee as well as some loss of hearing. His helmet is peppered with shrapnel and his flak jacket is torn in places. Remarkably, the passengers in the ambulance — a child, a man and an elderly woman — all survived, though the man inside the ambulance lost his right leg.

This incident, though, has caused anxiety and anger among the Lebanese Red Cross volunteers, who number about 2,400. They say they were under the impression that they would be safe and point to the Geneva Convention, which says that the Red Cross symbol should prevent them from being targeted. However, they say, not one volunteer has called in to withdraw their services.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14041670/

A Night of Death and Terror for Lebanese Villagers
...Missiles hit two Red Cross ambulances last weekend, wounding six people and punching a circle in the center of the cross on one’s roof. A rocket hit the ambulance convoy that responded in Qana on Sunday.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/31/world/middleeast/31scene.html?ex=1166763600&en=3bd0c92dc783069a&ei=5070

[oberliner]

16. What the hell is zombietime?

Looks like a right-wing site.

Why were they considered credible here?

[Scurrilous]

30. It is a right-wing site.

Zombie is a regular poster at littlegreenfootballs.

[The Stranger]

12. When they repeatedly claim that it is a "hoax," people begin to believe it.

[Tom Joad]

13. I don't like any version of history deniers. Glad HRW is investigating and reporting on this.

[Violet_Crumble]

14. I remember the thread about it...

Thanks for posting that. It was interesting to read back through that thread and reconfigure the arguments that it was a hoax to include 'HRW Hates Israel And Are Biased Liars!!!!' ;)

[pelsar]

17. but i'm still waiting ..

to know why israeli missles make flamming scrap metal out of cars in gaza but in lebanon they only punch holes in roofs and leave the ambulances in one piece including the paint job.....


guess the air in lebanon must be different.....

[Violet_Crumble]

18. Why don't you email HRW and ask them?

Without rehashing that earlier thread, I thought it was sickening how swift some folk were to label the victim and anyone else involved as nothing but nasty liars, and all without a shred of proof...

[pelsar]

24. what victims?...

i'm simply asking for some proof of a missile that goes through vans blows up and doesnt singe the paint, unlike the ones in gaza which actually blow up. (as i recall the victim saw a fireball-that means something blew up).....

[Violet_Crumble]

38. Try reading through that old thread to refresh yr memory...

Why are you sitting here in this thread demanding proof off other DUers. My suggestion that you email HRW still stands as unlike you, me, other DUers, and the idiots who started the hoax rumour, they've actually been there and investigated it...

[leveymg]

19. My guess, the explosive charge in the missile didn't function properly.

Something punched all those holes, though. I don't think it was kids with can openers.

[idontwantaname]

20. different breed of missile

missiles fired from an Israeli drone

---------------

... or maybe artillery shell?

[leveymg]

21. How different?

All air-to-ground missiles have an explosive warhead that has some sort of triggering device. That component appears to have malfunctioned, or possibly the explosive material in the warhead was defective. It appears to have been a "dud". That would explain why the ambulance wasn't blown apart into flaming scrap metal.

Judging from the photos I saw, the warhead appears to have been a fragmentary type, with many small projectiles that exploded outwards around a larger hole in the center where the projectile entered the vehicle from above. I'd like to take a closer look, to confirm that the entry point was inward, and the smaller fragmentary holes were outward and in all directions.

I can't think of anything other than a defective missile that would be consistent with that sort of damage.

As to whether an artillery shell could do the same thing, again it would have had to be a dud round. Otherwise, it would have blown the car to pieces.

[pelsar]

22. excuse me for being a bit pessamistic...

but if it was a dud...that means theres this missile IN THE VAN..taking up a lot space.......or did it go through the floor, without making a hole in the floor?

this has got to be one of the most ridiculous discussions i've seen, since the last time this went around:

the case of the non explosive disappearing missile that does explode, but not too much and doesn't singe the paint.....
_____________________

btw the victim claims a fireball....which means: no dud.

[leveymg]

28. How do you know it didn't go through the floor of the van?

As for the fireball, it could have partially exploded -- you know, as well as I, that not all "duds" are competely inert -- which would explain all those little shrapnel holes.

I'll look around and see if I can find a copy of the photos, and repost them. You can do the same, along with posting a link to whatever other reports you've read. If they're not in English, please translate extracts for us.

Thanks.

[leveymg]

29. Here are photos of the Red Cross ambulance:

1) The entrance hole of something going in is clearly visible (there's a big dent inward), as are the little holes further to the rear on the roof of the van:

2) Here's another view from overhead. The shrapnel are more irregular in shape than I had recalled. Maybe, the holes were from pieces of the missile that broke up on impact inside (more likely on the road below the van after passing through the vehicle's belly pan - as we'll see below, that may not be the best interpretation of the damage):

3) Here's a shot from the front. The vehicle is largely intact, with no real visible fire damage, but something blew the windows out.

4) And a shot from the side, with the door open. Hard to see what the condition of the interior, but no signs of an explosion. A complete dud, if it was a missile. And, it would have been moving fairly slowly, otherwise the kenetic energy would have done far more damage.

5) A closer view of the interior, taken from the side door. No fire damage visible. Also, no apparent shrapnel holes on the sides of the vehicle:

Something round punched right through the roof, and multiple smaller punctures, but without creating any significant heating of the interior space, and no visible damage to the front or sides of the vehicle:

I don't think this is a hoax - if one wanted to fake blowing up an ambulance, why not shoot an anti-tank missile at it? At the same time, whatever impacted this van didn't explode inside. Could this damage have been caused by pieces that were blown off another vehicle or a nearby structure that was hit by ordinance? Go back up to the largest shot of the roof at 2). Those smaller penetration holes look like they're from the outside. That would be consistent with secondary shrapnel from a blast that occurred nearby, spraying that part of the vehicle from above. The spread of the fragments are closely grouped, which indicates that the source was within a few feet.

Can't make a definitive conclusion, but whatever exploded was very close to that vehicle and appears to have been above, so we can't rule out that the ambulance was targeted by some sort of aircraft-launched missile. I think this is secondary shrapnel damage, however.

Would like to hear any alternative hypothesis.

[pelsar]

31. be serious.....

if it was a "dud"....dont you think they would be showing the missile?...and if there was a partial fire ball.....how about some burn damage...btw a missile going at about 900mph will "exit the thin skinned vehicle

HRW does actually state there is no physical evidence for the missile....

[Phx_Dem]

32. Other than those weird holes in the ground

If there are holes, why could they not dig out the shell? Are there similar size holes in the floor of the ambulance? If not why?

[leveymg]

33. We need to see the floor of the vehicle. I'm coming to the conclusion

that something exploded nearby, overhead toward the rear right quarter, leaving multiple shrapnel holes in the roof, and something large and cylindrical in shape -- but not the body of a missile, itself -- punched through the center.

Whatever it was that punched the largest hole, would have had to continue moving through the vehicle exiting through the bottom. If it didn't pass through the belly of the vehicle, it would be found more or less intact, inside. Nothing exploded or heated the interior of that van.

- MORE IN NEXT POST -

[leveymg]

35. The HRW report contains a photo of the exit through the floor, and a

plausible explanation that the missile used was a very small, fragmentary missile -- a DIME -- designed to do precisely this kind damage to unarmored vehicles. The report contains a photo of a passenger vehicle allegedly damaged in a separate fatal attack by an aerial drone DIME missile.

Most importantly, from my standpoint, the HRW report also has photo taken directly above ambulance 782 shows a hole punched through the belly pan below. http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/mena/qana1206/4.htm There's also a photo of a second ambulance - No. 777 - with very similar damage.

I revise my conclusions based on what I've read of the HRW report and the photos I've seen. Everything is consistent with what has been desceribed damage resulting from a DIME missile.

This is no hoax.

[Phx_Dem]

36. Where is the shell?

There is no evidence that this so called DIME weapon even exists. That's the best HRW can come up with?

Maybe Israeli scientists have discovered a massive monopole that the IAF launches from drone planes. After it hits the target it keeps going straight through the planet and out the other side. Yeah, that explains the missing shell.

[msmcghee]

37. Did you read the footnotes on DIME technology?

"Previous scaled tests show that the carbon composite casing breaks up into small harmless fibers during the detonation event, effectively removing fragmentation as a lethal mechanism to nearby collateral assets. Thus, near-field airblast with entrained high-velocity inert metal particles are the damage mechanisms for carbon composite cased munitions with DIME fills."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/dime.htm

The inert metal particles described above are small particles embedded in the explosive charge of the warhead of the DIME. They are not shrapnel - as supposedly went through the roofs of these two ambulances.

The purpose of DIME is to create a lethal very high pressure blast of small diameter including harmless carbon fibers - that kills anyone within a few feet but does little damage to vehicle, facilities or structures. Mr. Fawaz seems quite intact except for his missing leg.

[leveymg]

39. Whatever it is, appears to be the same device that killed the passenger

in the van in the separate incident, as the photo in the HRW report illustrates. Lots of blood on the headliner left by that one.

From an examination of the photos, this is some sort of guided "fragmentation" grenade with a very limited lethal radius. The warhead seems to be accurately guided with a kenetic kill device that punches a fairly big hole - about 10-12" in diameter cleanly through sheet metal and flesh. It also produces smaller, irregular shaped "shrapnel", again with a very limited radius. I use quotation marks because it's not a conventional metal-cased explosive device, like an artillery shell, but is actually an assassinations device that is much more technologically sophisticated, as is explained below.

This is what WIKI has to say about DIME:

Dense Inert Metal Explosive (DIME) is a new experimental type of explosive that has a very small but effective blast radius. It is intended to be used in urban areas. The phrase 'inert metal' refers to the metal's non-involvement in the blast (as opposed to, for example using, aluminium powder to increase blast strength), rather than the metal being chemically or biologically inert.

The explosive casing is made of carbon fibre which disintegrates upon detonation (vs. the shrapnel which results from the fragmentation of a metal casing). The explosive fill is mixed with a very dense powder of a heavy metal tungsten alloy (HMTA) such as cobalt and nickel or iron. The HMTA powder forms a micro-shrapnel which is very lethal at close range (~4 meters or 12 feet), but loses inertia very quickly due to air resistance. The downward-facing direction of the blast means that survivors close to the lethal zone may have their legs amputated (slicing through bone and soft tissue) and can subsequently contract cancer (rhabdomyosarcoma) from the HMTA micro-shrapnel embedded in their body tissue.<1>

Although the relatively small radius of destruction reduces the area over which casualties may occur, the enhanced lethality close to the point of explosion and use in urban areas may actually increase the number of unintended casualties (so- called "collateral damage")In addition to this the toxic/carcinogenic effects of the HMTA may cause increased deaths in those who survive the initial blast or in people who inhale the dust.

The carcinogenic effects of heavy metal tungsten alloys (HMTA) have been studied by the U.S. Armed Forces since at least 2000 (along with depleted uranium (DU)). These alloys were found to cause neoplastic transformations of human osteoblast cells<2>

SNIP

As reported in French national newspaper Le Monde, according to a team of journalists from the Italian State radio-television RAI, DIME-type bombs were being used in the Gaza strip by the Israeli army, Tsahal, against Palestinians during July/August 2006. The investigation was performed by analysing samples of metals found in the victim's bodies and examining the unusual wounds.<4> Israel denied possessing or using such weapons.<5>

I see no reason why the body of this missile isn't constructed of light-weight carbon fiber -- nothing new there. The name DIME -- Dense Inert Metal Explosive -- suggests armour-penetrating warheads of very heavy materials similar to depleted uranium -- designed to carry a lot of kenetic punch needed to penetrate armoured vehicles, like tanks, so an attached explosive charge can be carried inside the vehicle before detonation.

This warhead, however, seems to carry no separate high-explosive charge, as there's no need to penetrate anything thicker than 12 guage sheet metal. Fragments of carbon fiber or very fine powdered materials, while having considerable mass, might be more difficult to detect because they do fragments and resemble sand when compressed, as they would be if discharged in ane explosive charge. There'd likely be a some sort of residue, but that might require laboratory analysis of you didn't know what you're looking for.

This is just a guess.

We know what it does. It seems an ideal assassination weapon for use against the occupants of ordinary motor vehicles. Probably can also be used effectively against moving vehicles, without creating a lot of "collatoral damage" and the attendant diplomatic problems. Leaves behind scant evidence. A sniper's weapon for the 21st Century.

[msmcghee]

40. Thanks for the Wiki link. I only followed the one . .

. . supplied by HRW. The Wiki fills in some blanks.

However, neither article talked about armor penetration. The "dense inert metel" consists of small particles of metal that don't explode with the detonation but that are mixed in with the explosive charge. This is to give more force to the blast wave. (Standard explosives become very small particles so that they are effectively just more expanding gas in the explosion.)

As I understand the explanation here, the inert metal is provided to remain in a small but slightly larger particle size that pushes more air in the blast wave to create a higher pressure in blast wave to increase the lethality.

The casing of the missile and explosive charge is carbon fiber which reduces to small lightweight pieces when the explosive is detonated. The purpose of the DIME weapon is to kill people in a small radius from impact but not damage equipment in that vicinity.

The purpose of the DIME is to do minimal or no collateral damage - hence the attempt to create no shrapnel at all. The lethality is due to the blast pressure wave alone - which dissipates according to the cube of the distance from detonation. (The difference in pressure from 1 ft to 4 ft from the center is 1/27. The pressure at 8 ft is about 1/350 of the pressure at 1 ft.) So it is lethal only within a few feet and it does not produce shrapnel at all.

If a DIME munition as described here was used on those ambulances - I would wonder what caused the numerous shrapnel holes in the roof of the ambulance. I would also wonder how a missile casing of carbon fibre designed to disintegrate when exploded could travel through a roof, leg, a gurney, a floor and then create a clean hole through several inches of pavement - and then disappear.

I would also wonder why they needed to use the DIME technology here. Did they not want to damage the ambulance for some reason? Of course the ambulance was damaged - by shrapnel (or something made to look like shrapnel.)

It just doesn't make sense so far.

[leveymg]

41. The powdered mass of heavy inert material, travelling very fast, cuts

through metal and flesh.

The way I understand these munitions work is that the DIME missile is a rocket with a sophisticated guidance system that explodes at a precise distance from the target - in this case, an ambulance. At the point of detonation, a fast moving powder ball - not solid but very heavy - is driven downward by an shaped explosive charge. That's designed to cut through a car roof and the occupant below.

The smaller impact craters may be "splatters" from an imperfect shock wage, perhaps intentional.

Heavy metal particles are very toxic, and have a potentially lethal effect of their own.

Does that make sense to you?

I dislike these things all the more I read about them.

[msmcghee]

42. You make no sense at all.

A shaped charge is for penetrating several inches of thick armor, not sheet metal.

A not solid but very heavy fast-moving powder ball? Where did that come from in the articles.

Designed to cut through the roof and the occupant below? A small dense piece of metal with sharpened edges simply dropped from a couple hundred feet would do that. Did they know precisely where the guy was on the gurney and used this high tech weapon to slice his leg off but not kill him? Why?

Splatters from an imperfect shock wave, perhaps intentional?

Oh yeah, I forgot the bit about the grenade from the last post.

I'm happy to discuss this with you - but not to play guessing games that turn the Israelis into some devious monsters creating ever more clever ways to kill innocent Palestinian civilians with secret weapons that leave no discernible evidence of their treachery. :eyes:

PS - Those ambulance roofs look like somebody was walking around up there with a pick axe of some sort.

[leveymg]

44. What penetrates armour also goes through sheet metal.

You just use less of it. That's why a drone aircraft -- which is pretty small -- can carry these weapons. You need a great big drone to carry a Hellfire missile that can knock out a tank.

Where does "not a solid, but a heavy, fast moving powder ball" come from? Look at the photos - something punched a hole about a foot in diameter through each of these vehicle roofs. These small, light missiles obviously don't have warheads a foot across - think, instead, of a shotgun, which has many smaller balls that produce a spread pattern that gets wider as it travels. That and the reference in the articles to slowing by a square of the distance makes me believe that the dense inert material is actually a powder, it spreads and slows as it travels from the source of a shock wave. A solid round wouldn't slow down and spread nearly so much, and also leaves an easily locatable solid metal slug behind, particularly after you fire it into something as easily penetrated as an ambulance with people inside it. A powdered warhead would only leave fine particles.

Screw the treachery part - this is just another way to "kill the enemy". What does treachery possibly have to do with that?

[pelsar]

43. i could go along with secondary damage....

though i dont know the exact environment of where/when it was hit (i'm inclined not to put much faith in the witnesses at this point), it might seem more plausible that it was "below" an explosion with fragments of whatever was blown up raining down on the ambulances. that would explain the hole in the roof, the irregular holes, the non burnt interior and intact structure of the vehicles.

[leveymg]

45. Read the thread above for discussion of DIME munitions

My discussion with msmcghee. Give us your thoughts about this.

[pelsar]

46. DIME....

the problem with the DIME explosive devise or other secret missiles that the HRW is referring to (no physical evidence, therefore it must be an israeli secret weapon)...is that i have no idea what the hell they're talking about.....I've read about it, in the above posts and other postings....but its all theoretical:

what kind of pieces are really left after the DIME explodes (explosions are very inexact forms of energy release), what kind of crater? heat release?......speed of the missile? kinetic energy involved.

My experience with all the fancy hi tech weaponry....is that in the end its metal doing damage in very inexact ways, leaving a mess all over the place, be it burn marks on the ground, pocket marks on buildings, trees etc.

we're a long way off from phasers......

and those ambulances were far too lightly damaged to have taken direct hit by missiles during a war, with no real physical evidence of the actual missiles or parts thereof despite the inquiry

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Phx_Dem]

25. HRW is basing their investigation on interviews

In their own report, there are forensic inconsistencies:

"Human Rights Watch cannot conclusively state which missiles were used in the attack on the ambulances, because our researchers did not find diagnostic shrapnel or missile parts at the scene, and because of the experimental nature of some missiles used by the IDF. The DIME is a weapon with a casing designed to disintegrate in an effort to minimize collateral damage from its fragmentation. Regardless of the weapon used, the IDF certainly has the capability to attack vehicles with limited impact missiles designed to cause low collateral damage."

"The new ambulances from Tyre took all of the wounded to Jabal Amal hospital in Tyre, before sending them to other hospitals. Muhammad, the most seriously injured, remained in intensive care for five days. Although the ambulance crews’ flak jackets and helmets protected them from major injuries, all suffered significant damage to their ear drums, including bleeding from their ears, due to the impact of the explosion, and from minor shrapnel wounds."

No shrapnel in the van, but shrapnel injuries on the wounded, not possible.

[pelsar]

26. fantasy land.....

so what HRW is saying is, we have no idea what attacked the van, we have no physical evidence of anything but it must have been some new experimental israeli weapon since we cant think of anything else.....

[breakaleg]

27. Thanks for posting. I'd like to think this will clear the matter up as it's

still brought up in the I/P forum as a hoax. But I'm not so naive.

[Violet_Crumble]

47. Chances of that are Nil and Buckleys...

There's obviously a lot of emotional investment been placed in agreeing with the initial lie that the Lebanese (inluding the poor guy who lost one of his limbs) made up a story, coz y'know, like, Arabs, they make up lots of lies and are always trying to make Israel look evil and nasty. And now faced with facts and the bleeding obvious megafact that unlike them, HRW actually went there and investigated it themselves, it's probably best just to imply that HRW aren't credible or believable (apart from when they're criticising Palestinian groups or talking about Jenin and then they're an authority above all others!!), and do the armchair military expert routine and talk about weapons as though they're an authority on them... ;)

[msmcghee]

34. Now this is going to get interesting.

I have spent the last hour reviewing the "new" evidence presented in this HRW report.

I have no problem condemning Israel for attacking two ambulances if that's what Israel did. But this report leaves much to be desired in terms of proof. I'll just draw attention now to two of what I see as major omissions / inconsistencies in this report.

My problem lies mostly in the area of the shrapnel holes in the roofs of both ambulances. The photos show the shrapnel entering from the outside and directly above the roof based on the orientation of the clearly visible bent back edges of the holes in both ambulance roofs. (This report shows the only clear views of the roof of 777 - these were not shown in the Zombietime report.) They match the images of the 782 roof from before pretty well. The edges are all bent inward.

That means that the "missiles" had to explode in the air above both ambulances and before they entered either ambulance.

That raises several questions.

a) Why didn't HRW pick up a few pieces of shrapnel from inside the ambulances and show them to us? By looking at the pictures there should have been hundreds of pieces of jagged metal that would not look anything like the metal from the ambulance itself. That would have gone a long way to dispel doubts but there is no shrapnel offered as evidence.

b) All the shrapnel holes appear to be from objects traveling straight down through the roof. I see no holes that appear to come from projectiles coming in at an angle to the roof. How can that be? The missile is reported by HRW to have come straight down from above. If it explodes most of the shrapnel would have to have a trajectory at right angles to the missile trajectory (based on the cylindrical shape of missiles). Some, probably most of the shrapnel, from a missile from that angle would have made angular cuts in the roof. None of those holes that I can see fit that description.

c) If the missiles exploded above the ambulance, what made the clean circular holes through the roof vents, what was left to amputate Fawaz's leg, what made the clean hole in the gurney, and what then was left to cut the small clean holes in the pavement.

d) Why didn't HRW gather samples from the holes in the pavement and have them analyzed. Missiles are not usually made of same metals that ambulances are. To save weight they use things like aluminum and titanium (although some projectiles are loaded with heavier metal parts to cause damage on explosion). Ambulances are made of sheet steel. These certainly were as the rust shows. This would have been an easy definitive way to show that the missiles actually existed and that the holes in the pavement and the roofs of the ambulances were not made in some other way.

e) The whole question of why a missile would be set to explode before it hits its target dissipating its energy into the air above the target rather than in the target itself. And of course how an already exploded missile is still intact to make clean circular holes in the pavement after traveling through ambulance roof and floors and gurneys. I notice that HRW did not provide photos of similar holes made by any of the many missile strikes in Lebanon or elsewhere. Such clean holes in the pavement from an already exploded missile seem quite improbable to me.

I see many more inconsistencies in this report. But rather than me argue about them now, I'll just make a prediction that anyone here is free to hold me to.

In the following days there will be many serious questions raised about this report and HRW's credibility in issuing it.

We should all stock up up on popcorn.

And again, if I see any conclusive evidence that this happened the way HRW described it here, I will change my mind and join in condemning those responsible for such an inhumane and immoral act. (That's assuming there were no mitigating factors like targeting errors or things like that - which seem pretty unlikely.)

[oblivious]

48. Blogger Ethan Zukerman offers a thoughtful perspective on this.

Scroll down to December 20, 2006

...What’s disturbing to me about the situation is the timeframe. Zombietime and affiliated rightwing commentators got their story out very quickly, offering their analysis within days of the incident. HRW’s response is coming almost half a year later. This makes sense - HRW actually went to Lebanon and interviewed people who saw the incident, while Zombietime looked at press photos and offered theories. While HRW’s analysis is critical in determining what really happened on July 23rd and demanding accountability from the Israeli government, this report is hardly likely to call as much attention to the incident as it recieved when it was initially reported. Zombietime et. al. already accomplished their rhetorical goals - they gave an explanation that let some readers dismiss the reporting of the incident and cast doubt into the mind of other readers. It’s unlikely that many of those people will wrestle with the issues again as a result of HRW’s report, as much as I’d hope otherwise.

This raises an interesting question about the future of factual disputes in the age of citizen media: should we expect partisan refutation of all inconvenient facts? If this is the case, is it a victory for dispersed global fact-checking, or for rhetoric? Pro-Israel organizations like Honest Reporting are closely monitoring media for stories they consider critical. If they subject these stories to careful, factual analysis and reveal sloppy reporting, like that conducted by Dan Rather on the Bush memos, this is a good thing. But if they do their own sloppy reporting and the assertions they offer can’t be challenged until six months after the fact, we’re in for a very ugly chapter in the history of news media. ...

more at http://ethanzuckerman.com/blog/?cat=20