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Why can't Bush just push the Yossi Beilin & Yasser Abed Rabbo Geneva Solution to Israel/PA conflict?

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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:32 PM
Original message
Why can't Bush just push the Yossi Beilin & Yasser Abed Rabbo Geneva Solution to Israel/PA conflict?
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 10:34 PM by papau
It seems to be the natural conclusion of where the Clinton Parameters http://www.fmep.org/documents/clinton_parameters12-23-00.html would have led if the Taba talks hadn’t been halted because of the impending fall of the Barak government. When on December 1, 2003 Yossi Beilin and Yasser Abed Rabbo launched the Geneva Accord in Switzerland, we had a nearly complete treaty laid out - if Bush wants to start finally on real solutions in the MidEast it is time he pushed the Geneva Accord and forgot about his "Quartet" plan. Things Clinton touched do and will work - as opposed to the disaster in everything that is the Bush presidency.


TEXT OF THE GENEVA ACCORD (both links below give same document)
http://www.fmep.org/documents/Geneva_Accord.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=351461&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

joining hands at the





http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=349832&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

The Geneva Accord

The start of December saw the official launch of a peace proposal that members of the Israeli leftist opposition and Palestinian officials have been working on for the past two-and-a-half years.

Dozens of Israeli delegates, including members of the world of entertainment, several literati and a number of Labor MKs, joined the authors of the accord to mark its launch at a ceremony on December 1, hosted by Hollywood actor Richard Dreyfuss. The several dozen Palestinians who attended, among them Yasser Arafat's national security advisor Jibril Rajoub, traveled to Geneva after the PA chairman gave his last-minute blessing.

The initiative, which was unveiled in mid-October, was spearheaded by Oslo architect Yossi Beilin on the Israeli side and former minister Yasser Abed Rabbo for the Palestinians.

The plan, dubbed the Geneva Accord in tribute to the funding and support supplied by the Swiss Foreign Ministry, offers itself as a decisive solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, based on the plan drawn up by former U.S. president Bill Clinton after the breakdown in the July 2000 talks between former prime minister Ehud Barak and Yasser Arafat.

Fifty-eight former presidents, prime ministers, foreign ministers and other global leaders, among them former presidents Mikhail Gorbachev of the Soviet Union and F.W. de Klerk of South Africa, issued a statement expressing "strong support" for the plan. Other world leaders who voiced their backing included King Hassan III of Morocco, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt and Clinton.

Speaking at the start of ceremony, former U.S. president and Nobel laureate Jimmy Carter hailed the accord as offering an end to bloodshed, while Swiss Foreign Minister Micheline Calmy-Rey dubbed it "a little light in the darkness."

At the heart of the proposal is a Palestinian concession on the right of return to lands within the State of Israel, in exchange for sovereignty over the Temple Mount. The plan also calls for an Israeli withdrawal from most of the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip. <snip>

http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/print?id=2680021

Excerpt: Carter's 'Palestine Peace Not Apartheid'
Former President Shares His Plan for Middle East Peace in New Book

Chapter 17

Summary

Since the Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty was signed in 1979, much blood has been shed unnecessarily and repeated efforts for a negotiated peace between Israel and her neighbors have failed. Despite its criticism from some Arab sources, this treaty stands as proof that diplomacy can bring lasting peace between ancient adversaries. Although disparities among them are often emphasized, the 1974 Israeli-Syrian withdrawal agreement, the 1978 Camp David Accords, the Reagan statement of 1982, the 1993 Oslo Agreement, the treaty between Israel and Jordan in 1994, the Arab peace proposal of 2002, the 2003 Geneva Initiative, and the International Quartet's Roadmap all contain key common elements that can be consolidated if pursued in good faith.

There are two interrelated obstacles to permanent peace in the Middle East:

1. Some Israelis believe they have the right to confiscate and colonize Palestinian land and try to justify the sustained subjugation and persecution of increasingly hopeless and aggravated Palestinians; and

2. Some Palestinians react by honoring suicide bombers as martyrs to be rewarded in heaven and consider the killing of Israelis as victories.

In turn, Israel responds with retribution and oppression, and militant Palestinians refuse to recognize the legitimacy of Israel and vow to destroy the nation. The cycle of distrust and violence is sustained, and efforts for peace are frustrated. Casualties have been high as the occupying forces impose ever tighter controls. From September 2000 until March 2006, 3,982 Palestinians and 1,084 Israelis were killed in the second intifada, and these numbers include many children: 708 Palestinians and 123 Israelis. As indicated earlier, there was an ever-rising toll of dead and wounded from the latest outbreak of violence in Gaza and Lebanon.

The only rational response to this continuing tragedy is to revitalize the peace process through negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians, but the United States has, in effect, abandoned this effort. It may be that one of the periodic escalations in violence will lead to strong influence being exerted from the International Quartet to implement its Roadmap for Peace. These are the key requirements:

a. The security of Israel must be guaranteed. The Arabs must acknowledge openly and specifically that Israel is a reality and has a right to exist in peace, behind secure and recognized borders, and with a firm Arab pledge to terminate any further acts of violence against the legally constituted nation of Israel.

b. The internal debate within Israel must be resolved in order to define Israel's permanent legal boundary. The unwavering official policy of the United States since Israel became a state has been that its borders must coincide with those prevailing from 1949 until 1967 (unless modified by mutually agreeable land swaps), specified in the unanimously adopted U.N. Resolution 242, which mandates Israel's withdrawal from occupied territories. This obligation was reconfirmed by Israel's leaders in agreements negotiated in 1978 at Camp David and in 1993 at Oslo, for which they received the Nobel Peace Prize, and both of these commitments were officially ratified by the Israeli government. Also, as a member of the International Quartet that includes Russia, the United Nations, and the European Union, America supports the Roadmap for Peace, which espouses exactly the same requirements. Palestinian leaders unequivocally accepted this proposal, but Israel has officially rejected its key provisions with unacceptable caveats and prerequisites. <snip>
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. Gonna keep this open for now


Lithos
DU Moderator
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
2. because....
its now 2006 israel left gaza twice and each time kassams have been launched from gaza in to israel..... (14 todate from the "cease fire")

until the PA can actually govern and show better control there isnt much to do...
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UndertheOcean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. The question is how can you control something that can essentially be contructed...
in any not very sophisticated metal shop ?

The range of those things is less than what I drive to work each day.

Even if all metal workers are raided , the device is simple enough to build underground.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. its not up to israel....
its a palestenain problem...more specifically is the PA govts problem. Its is they who have to learn to "control" their own people.

the whole system: from smugglers, to tunnelers, to metal shops to storage to shooters.....can be discovered and 'dealt with".
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. if Israel had not bombarded the Palestinian Authority; wrecking their
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 03:31 AM by Douglas Carpenter
offices, destroying their files, bombarding their police departments and marginalizing their leadership. If Israel hadn't done everything possible to the Gaza and other parts of the Occupied Palestinian Territories to make things nonviable economically and politically. If Israel hadn't continued to massively expanded settlements in the rest of the Occupied Territories as an essential part of their redeployment from the Gaza---If Israel hadn't purposely wrecked every single cease fire that was painstakingly worked out by the Mr. Abu Mazen and the Palestinian Authority. Then perhaps, just perhaps the Palestinian Authority might have a little bit more to work with and to govern.

Furthermore as regarding the Gaza specifically, anyone remotely familiar with the situation there knows that the place was a complete mess more than ten years ago and getting worse by the day with problems far, far greater than in the West Bank. Nobody expected the Gaza to be success under such circumstances.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. 2006..welcome...
hamas is the govt.....and in fact i am a bit familiar with gaza and know thats it had a very good infrastructure up to the day israel left.

including greenhouse that employed over 4,000 workers (until the palestenians destroyed them....) access to israel, until they attacked karmi several times...access to egypt, restricted partially because they attacked its several times...

for further information about gaza its best to read what hamas has to say about it:

The chaos, pointless murders, the plundering of lands, family feuds ... what do all of these have to do with the occupation?" Dr Hamad wrote in an article published on Palestinian news websites. "Gaza is suffering under the yoke of anarchy and the sword of thugs. We've been attacked by the bacteria of stupidity and don't know where we're headed."

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20300000-601,00.html

anybody want to disagree with the Hamas spokesman?...at least he has the honesty to place the blame where it belongs....on the palestenians themselves.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. the Palestinians do deserve some of the blame especially resulting from
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 11:57 AM by Douglas Carpenter
factionalism and inter-Palestinian fighting. Added to that is the reality of a population density which is among the highest in the world. However, under the occupation they never had the ability to develop much of an independent economy or political institutions. Policies imposed on them by Israel prevented much of that. Then with closure polices implemented first in 1991 and strengthened and essentially made permanent in March of 1993 sent their economy into a further tailspin with the sudden cut off of day labor into Israel and the inability of Gazan farmers and merchants to sell their items in Israel. BTW: the first suicide bombing in Israel did not occur until April of 1994 in Afula--link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3256858.stm

Needless to say the recent cut off of international funds has not helped matters either. Neither has the almost complete cut-off of Gaza to the West Bank which was the case before and after the Israeli redeployment from Gaza to the West Bank.

Hamas is not an entirely monolithic organization. And it is a good thing that some of its leaders are calling upon their people to self-examine. It would be a very good thing if there was more of that. But this hardly makes Israel blameless.

When would you guess the following paragraph was written:

"Economic conditions have deteriorated so dramatically that there is no formal economy any more. Hunger is now a growing problem. The family unit has been weakened; the classroom has been barred. Children of all ages are traumatized; parents no longer exist as such. Gaza is a very different place today than it was just two years ago when I first started working there. It is a society on the verge of imploding."

This was written in July of 1993 by Dr. Sara Roy of Harvard University who has lived, worked and researched in the Gaza much of the past 21 years. This article was originally published in The Women's Review of Books under the title, "Writing out of Crisis" then reprinted in Dr. Roy's book; Failing Peace: Gaza and and the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict - Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Failing-Peace-Gaza-Palestinian-Israeli-Conflict/dp/0745322344/sr=11-1/qid=1164990855/ref=sr_11_1/102-8701952-4352901)

.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. i really have a problem "hyperbole"
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 12:56 PM by pelsar
Hunger is now a growing problem...seems hunger has been a problem since 1993?....if that were really the case i would have expected to see some pictures of "hungry/starving kids" by now....13 years later......mind you i dont doubt the traumatized kids, family breakdown etc, but a lot of that belongs to the PA...just as the hamas spokesman said....sometimes the truth is hard to face, but its the first step. (btw, lots of money for weapons...lots!, so i guess the hungry kids are simply the result of internal economics)

under the occupation?......israel left over a year ago...that was the chance of a "lifetime for them"..granted they messed up from day one, when they shot over 30 missles in to israel and never really got down to putting the effort in to their own economy or society...but the occupation did leave for a short while.....

Just as the hamas spokesman said (btw thats his official position, which makes its the hamas govt official position)

so israel has left again, maybe this time, they can convince the egyptians to help them with their exports, maybe this time they'll stop attacking israel, maybe this time they'll listen to their govt and do something......

the occupation in gaza is gone...again, hope they do something about it to keep it gone, its up to them and them alone
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. then face the reality that Israel is largely responsible for creating the
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 04:30 PM by Douglas Carpenter
conditions that had already turned the Gaza into a basket case by the early 90's.

I myself do not hang on every word a Hamas official says. Although I do believe it is positive that he is calling on Gazans to self-examine. Perhpas everyone should do a little bit of that,

You know as well as I do that Israel ultimately controls the border with Egypt and denies access of Gaza Palestinians to the West Bank. The rest of the Gaza is surrounded by a very large electric fence. The vast majority of Gazan Palestinians have no way to leave this 3 mile wide/28 mile long strip:

“The crossings agreement (“Movement and Access from Gaza”) signed on 15 November 2005 specified that Rafah crossing would be used for the passage of people in and out of Gaza—but that goods, vehicles and trucks to and from Egypt would have to pass through the Israeli crossing at Kerem Shalom, under full Israeli supervision. As far as people traffic is concerned, entry to the Strip would be permitted only to those holding Palestinian ID. Any foreign nationals would only be allowed to enter “by exception in agreed categories with prior notification to the Government of Israel….The Palestinian Authority will notify the Government of Israel 48 hours in advance of a person in the excepted categories—diplomats, foreign investors, foreign representatives of recognized international organizations and humanitarian cases…….Although there would be no direct Israeli presence in the Rafah crossing, it was agreed that “cameras will be installed to monitor the search process, so that Israel would be able to monitor all movement from its inspection point to a few kilometers away. Effectively, therefore, entry to the Gaza Strip would continue to remain under Israeli control.” Pages 134-135

“The Gaza Strip depends economically on its contact with the West Bank, which involves trucks and goods passing through Erez and Karni crossing on the Gaza-Israel border, making their way to the West Bank through Israel. According to the World Bank’s representative in the occupied territories, Nigel Roberts, “before the Intifada broke out…some 225 trucks a day passed through the crossings, compared to only 35 a day in the six months prior to disengagement. Since the disengagement, however, the situation deteriorated even further…only about a dozen trucks per day have bee allowed into Israel to travel to the West Bank.” Page 136

“The 15 November 2005 agreement did indeed specify that “Israel will allow passage of convoys (to and from Gaza and to and from the West Bank). However this plan was frozen. “Saeb Erekat, the Palestinian negotiator, said he was disgusted with the situation. There’s no security issue for Israel.” He said. “They will have names submitted in advance, they (Israel) screen the passengers, no one leaves the bused and they’re escorted by Israel to Tarquimiya (in the south of the West Bank)….And how should the Palestinians expect to make an agreement if someone so high up as (Secretary of State) Rice arranges something of so little risk to Israel and nothing happens?” page 137

“The situation in Gaza remained as Mahmoud Abbas described it shortly after the Israeli pullout: “ The Strip is one large prison, and the army’s departure does not change this situation” page 138

from -- The Road Map to Nowhere by Professor Tanya Reinhart of Tel Aviv University -- Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Road-Map-Nowhere-Israel-Palestine/dp/1844670767/ref=sr_11_1/002-4750258-7334423?ie=UTF8
_______________

UN report: “Israel violated all articles of Crossings agreement”

"The United Nations office for Human Affairs in the West Bank published a report on Thursday morning accusing Israel of violating every article of the Crossings agreements, and stated that Israel imposed strict siege and closure on the Palestinian people.

The report, marking one year since the agreement was reached, stated that border crossings remained closed most of the year.

Also, the report revealed that the closure caused a significant increase in unemployment in the Gaza Strip since the level jumped from 33.1% in 2005 to 41.8% in 2006." link: http://www.imemc.org/content/view/22996/147/
___________________

Palestine Center Information Brief No. 143 (02 October 2006)

By Sara Roy author of Failing Peace: Gaza and athe Palestinian-Israeli Conflict -- Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Failing-Peace-Gaza-Palestinian-Israeli-Conflict/dp/0745322344/sr=11-1/qid=1165008489/ref=sr_11_1/102-8701952-4352901

"Dr. Sara Roy is a Professor at the Center for Middle Eastern Studies at Harvard University. Dr. Roy has worked in the Gaza Strip and West Bank since 1985 conducting research primarily on the economic, social, and political development of the Gaza Strip and on U.S. foreign aid to the region. Dr. Roy has written extensively on the Palestinian economy, particularly in Gaza, and has documented its development over the last three decades."

link: http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/images/informationbrief.php?ID=169

snip: "The pauperization of Gaza’s economy is not accidental but deliberate, the result of continuous restrictive Israeli policies (primarily closure), particularly since the start of the current uprising six years ago, and more recently of the international aid embargo imposed on Palestinians after the election and installation of the democratically elected Hamas-led government earlier this year. However, one need only look at the economy of Gaza, for example, on the eve of the uprising to realize that the devastation is not recent. By the time the second intifada broke out, Israel's closure policy had been in force for seven years, leading to by then unprecedented levels of unemployment and poverty (which would soon be surpassed). Yet the closure policy proved so destructive only because the 30 year process of integrating Gaza's economy into Israel's had made the local economy deeply dependent. As a result, when the border was closed in 1993, self-sustainment was no longer possible—the means were simply not there. Decades of expropriation and deinstitutionalization had long ago robbed Palestine of its potential for development, ensuring that no viable economic (and hence political) structure could emerge.v

International Agencies: Realties and Forecasts

According to the World Bank, Palestinians are currently experiencing the worst economic depression in modern history. The opprobrious imposition of international sanctions has had a devastating impact on an already severely comprised economy given its extreme dependence on external sources of finance. For example, the Palestinian Authority is highly dependent on two sources of income. The first is annual aid package from Western donors of about $1 billion per year (in 2005, according to the World Bank, donors gave $1.3 billion in humanitarian and emergency <$500m/38%>, developmental <$450m/35%> and budgetary <$350m/27%> assistance, much of it now suspended. The second is a monthly transfer by Israel of $55 million in customs and tax revenues that it collects for the PA, a source of revenue that is absolutely critical to the Palestinian budget and totally suspended.vi In fact, Israel is now withholding close to half a billion dollars in Palestinian revenue that is desperately needed in Gaza.

The combined impact of restrictions, notably the almost unabated closure and the ongoing economic boycott, has resulted in unprecedented levels of unemployment that currently approach 40 percent in Gaza (compared to less than 12 percent in 1999). In fact, Palestinian workers from Gaza have not been allowed into Israel since 12 March 2006, Gaza’s primary market and all entry and exit points have been virtually sealed since June 25, 2006 when Israel’s current military campaign in Gaza began.vii In the next five years, furthermore, 135,000 new jobs will be needed just to keep unemployment at 10 percent.viii Trade levels have been similarly affected. By early May 2006, for example, the Karni crossing, through which commercial supplies enter Gaza, had been closed for 47 percent of the year with estimated daily losses of $500,000-$600,000.ix Compounding this are agricultural losses amounting to an estimated $1.2 billion for both Gaza and the West Bank over the last six years.

By April 2006 79 percent of Gazan households were living in povertyx (compared to less than 30 percent in 2000), a figure that has likely increased; many are hungry. Furthermore, in Gaza, adding one dependent member to the family increases the household's probability of being poor by 3.5 percent. The dependency burden found in Gaza is second only to that of Africa.xi Hence, the number of adults in a household who are employed is a strong factor in poverty alleviation. Not surprisingly, individuals living in the Gaza Strip are 23 percent more likely to be poor than individuals living in the West Bank.

The United Nations currently feeds approximately 830,000 of Gaza’s 1.4 million population (or 59 percent of the total population who would go hungry without UN assistance)—100,000 of whom were added since March of this year. UNRWA primarily supports 610,000 (all of whom are refugees) and the World Food Program supports 220,000 (60,000 were added in September 2006 alone) non-refugees. The latter include 136,000 “chronic poor” who previously received welfare assistance from the PA.xii

Exacerbating Gaza’s socioeconomic decline was Israel’s attack on Gaza’s only power station last June. The plant, which was destroyed, supplied 45 percent of the electricity in the Gaza Strip. The cuts in power have been extremely harmful to healthcare delivery, food and water supplies, and the treatment of sewage among other problems. Recently, the Israeli human rights group, B’tselem said the attack on the power plant constituted a war crime under international law since it targeted a civilian population.

snip:

"According to the United Nations, in 2007, absent of any meaningful improvement, the Palestinian economy as a whole will be 35 percent smaller than it was in 2005, falling to its level in 1991, and over half the labor force will be unemployed.xv The UN recently published projections on the impact of reduced international aid on the Palestinian economy. Using 2005 as its basis of comparison, the projections assume a 30-50 percent reduction in aid (and with it public expenditures), a 50-100 percent increase in restrictions on trade, and a 10-20 percent increase in restrictions on labor flows to Israel. Under the worst-case scenario, which is not unlikely, the losses in GDP between 2006 and 2008 could reach $5.4 billion, which exceeds the Palestinian GDP in 2005. Eighty-four percent of total jobs available in 2005 could be lost.xvi Even under a better case scenario, writes Raja Khalidi, an economist at UNCTAD, “the Palestinian economy will implode to levels not witnessed for a generation.”xvii "

snip:

"An Economic Forecast

The resulting damage—both present and future—cannot be undone simply by 'returning' Gaza's lands, removing 9,000 Israeli settlers, and allowing Palestinians freedom of movement and the right to build factories within an enlarged but isolated and encircled Gaza. Gaza's many problems cannot be addressed when its burgeoning population is confined within a physically constrained territory of limited resources. Density is not just a problem of people but of access to resources, especially labor markets. Without external access to jobs and the right to emigrate, something the Gaza Disengagement Plan and Olmert's realignment plan effectively deny, the Strip will remain a prison unable to engage in any form of economic development.

Indeed, in 2005, the international community (through the Ad Hoc Liason Committee) concluded that the most important factor in Palestine's economic decline is not reduced aid levels but movement and access restrictions and the suspension of revenue transfers. In fact, they concluded that in the continued absence of a political settlement (that would allow greater movement into Israel and beyond), international aid can only help Palestinians survive and nothing else.

The urgency of Gaza’s plight is considerable for as Raja Khalidi writes, “Even assuming a full return of donor support and the relaxation of mobility restrictions by 2008, GDP and employment losses would continue to accumulate. This suggests that today’s declines will have harmful, long-lasting effects on the economy that will persist even if adverse conditions are alleviated later on.”xxi "

link to full article:

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/images/informationbrief.php?ID=169


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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. some corrections...
the cameras at rafah were useless......once israel left gaza the rafah crossing was in the complete hands of the Egyptians/PA and Europeans.....any complaints should be directed at the egyptians for lack of commerce (they did not want the import/export business of the palestenians)...but you know that as well as I. and the europeans who have refused to open it up at times. (they dont want to travel in gaza to reach the crossing or stay in Egypt).
anyway the tunnels have made up for it.

Money for guns they have, given the well equipped militias, food therefore must be a lesser issue.

the rest of gaza?.....their options increased 1,000% when israel left......and thats all there is to it. Israel is gone again and they now have another chance. I'll make some suggestions:

pressure egypt to help them export via Rafah

they can export to egypt place the goods on egyptian trucks/drivers and then reimport to israel (and to the westbank)

they should not attack and kill egyptians at Rafah

they should stop shooting kassams at israel, eventually the IDF will return fire.....(it should be obvious to all, who is now trying to kill civilians and who isnt....)

hook up the electrical grid to egypt, cut all ties to the israeli infrastructure.

and they really should return Gilad.....or at least let the red cross visit.

_______

i'm afriad it really is that simple in principle. All it takes is a bit of initiative and most importand of all, the will and desire to improve their lives and stop looking for excuses blame somebody else for their problems.

they've had this chance before and now they're getting another one.....wonder if they'll blow this one as well...all the econ reports in the world doesnt change the simple fact that today israel is not in gaza, and missles are flying over the border trying to kill israelis..and israel is doing nothing about it.....

and that internally they have a 'political mess" which is also their own doing......it doesnt look good, but this is all on the palestenians
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. All the more reason why
a genuine peace agreement such as the Yossi Beilin & Yasser Abed Rabbo Geneva solution is the reasonable approach to seek a resolution not to just the situation in the Gaza but to the whole question of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Gaza really cannot be compared to the West Bank. The Gaza's problems are far deeper and far more entrenched and will take more time to untangle. If the Gaza was on the verge of imploding in 1993 when its population was about 800,000 and their economy and their political institutions were is much better shape then they are now, it should not be too surprising that with a current population of 1.4 million that the place is in chaos. I really have trouble believing that anyone thought these problems could be cured over night.

It's not that I don't agree that Gaza Palestinians and their leadership shouldn't be doing a lot more to improve their situation. Of course they should. As you pointed out, even the Hamas leadership thinks that. Given their incredible problems - somethings take time. And I do agree that Egypt could do more. I will not be an apologist for the Egyptian government.

As dreadful as conditions are - the West Bank still has a lot more going for it than the Gaza. However, if we wait and wait and wait for peace the West Bank can only deteriorate further and we might see the same almost impossible conditions of the Gaza take over in the West Bank. Things are not going to improve by waiting. They are only going to get worse.

The Yossi Beilin & Yasser Abed Rabbo Geneva solution offers a plan that is far from perfect and Palestinians have just as many caveats as the Israelis that they are less than happy about. And they are just as fearful-in fact probably a lot more so--as the Israelis of the possibility of things going very wrong. But there will never be a perfect time for peace. The alternative is to wait and see things deteriorate even further.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:05 AM
Response to Original message
5. I completely 100% agree
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 03:11 AM by Douglas Carpenter
This is the closest thing to a viable and workable plan. It has elements that both sides will not like. But it is do-able and meets the minimal requirements for a viable peace with and the possibility of security for both sides--which neither side really has right now.
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nicoll Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
8. ?
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 10:27 AM by nicoll
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nicoll Donating Member (76 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
9. what about free movement between GS and WB
Resolution 242, which mandates Israel's withdrawal from occupied territories. This obligation was reconfirmed by Israel's leaders in agreements negotiated in 1978 at Camp David and in 1993 at Oslo, for which they received the Nobel Peace Prize, and both of these commitments were officially ratified by the Israeli government.

Then what is Israel doing when there are almost 400,000 jewish settlers in the west Bank, with number continually increasing over the 20 since 1978. Do they really want peace or just want to colonize more land for the Jewish state.

How would free movement between the two occur if this plan was implemented between the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The two are in separated and any movement would have to go through Israel. Lets say for argument sake that the whole plan went really well and both sides abides by it and a Palestinian state is formed in the Middle East. For a Palestinian state to be viable economically in the Middle East one of the essentials would be a strong export and import market through an international port in the Gaza Strip. If you were to have a large amount of trade coming and going through this port then what infrastructure would be required to facilitate free and easy movement of it to the West Bank. In addition to this what if people worked in the Gaza Strip and wanted to live in the West Bank. Would you have to have highways and train track's connecting the two. I never really understood why the UN partitioned the land in such a way if it wanted two states to be viable (Israel and Palestine). The mere fact that the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are in two parts just makes the prospect of having a viable Palestinian state within the Middle east harder. I do not see why they could not have had one whole body of land and not been in two parts.
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