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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 11:28 AM
Original message
High Court approves route of fence around W. Bank enclave
By Reuters and Haaretz Service

The Supreme Court on Thursday rejected Palestinian petitions against the route of a portion of the separation fence that cuts deep into the northern West Bank, in order to include a settlement bloc.

The court approved the section of the fence around Immanuel, Ma'aleh Shomron, and Karnei Shomron, citing security concerns and saying the three settlements have been "targets of harsh terror attacks over recent years."

Immanuel is located 18 kilometers (11 miles) inside the West Bank, while Ma'aleh Shomron and Karnei Shomron are slightly closer to Israel proper.

Residents of nearby Palestinian villages argued in their petitions that the 6 kilometer (3.5 mile)-long stretch of the separation fence would cut them off from their fields.

The court said they could appeal again, should arrangements for farmers to reach their crops through special gates prove unsatisfactory.

Link;
Haaretz

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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. Is there any farmland they haven't allowed to be stolen?
Is there any route they wouldn't approve?
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yes, the court has ruled for the Palestinians
The contrast between the rights Arabs -- including Palestinian non-citizens -- enjoy in Israel compared to the rest of the Middle East is striking.

Is it is ideal? No of course not. The solution is what it has been for years: the Palestinians must renounce terrorism and recognize Israel's right to exist. Once that happens -- for real -- everything, including final borders and the fate of the settlements, will be on the table. So long as the Palestinians prefer death and destruction (another would-be suicide bomber was caught -- in time -- this weekend), they will continue to suffer.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I would be interested in seeing if the Palestinians
agree with you about how utopian Israel's treatment of them is in the courts.

It has been stated in many books and articles over the years that Israel's bargaining position is "Get all Palestinians off of all land that we want, give us all the water access, abandon everything, and then we'll negotiate about giving you the rights that will be moot at that point anyway."

It is interesting that Israeli law allows non-Jews to be citizens but then reserves many privilages and rights to Jewish citizens only, creating a two-tiered system of citizen. That is why you constantly hear the current system of citizenship referred to as Israel's Apparteid.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. You are incorrect
There are not two tiers of citizenship in Israel. That is a lie.

There are no "rights and privileges" reserved to Jews with the possible exception of the law of return.

Non-Jewish holy sites, including Muslim sites, are in the hands of their respective faiths. Arab citizens have the right to vote, and have representation in the Knesset.

The lie you repeat is why ignorant fools misapply the word "apartheid" to Israel. It is totally inappropriate.

Meanwhile you duck the point I made, which is that the Arab minority in Israel enjoys more freedom there than Arabs in most ARAB countries.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. No, I am not incorrect.
Not only are there the imigration benefits of being Jewish, there are funding benefits, housing benefits, educational benefits. Privilages of being Jewish have been implemented throughout the structure of Israel.

If Arabs in Israel enjoy so many benefits then why don't any Arabs agree that these benefits exist? White people in the US used to insist that Negros enjoyed a lot of benefits of being in the US, but that didn't make it true.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Yes, you are incorrect, and repeating lies
Note that the Arabs in Israel aren't fleeing Israel to go live in Arab countries.

You obviously have an anti-Israel agenda that is leading your to lie and distort the facts. I would point out your obvious motivation, but that apparently is against the rules.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 12:48 PM
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. When you present some facts we can discuss them
I see no reason to write a treatise when all you're offering is lies.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I have
and you discount them because you don't want to even consider them. There is none so blind as those who will not see.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 12:57 PM
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Examples
In Israel, over 90% of the land is legally "national land." Jews are allowed to settle on this land, but Arabs cannot, even Arab citizens. As a matter of law, Arab citizens are prohibited from living on over 90% of the land in the state of Israel.

Differences have repeatedly been documented in the administration of justice between Israeli defendants and Arab defendents, even when both are citizens. Much like the inequalities African Americans face in the US but more extreme, Arab-Israelis are more likely to be arrested, more likely to be convicted, tend to be convicted for longer terms, are less likely to get parole, and serve their time under different conditions.

Also, Israel makes an official destinction between being a citizen and being a national. Arabs may be Israeli Citizens but they cannot be Israeli Nationals, because they are Arab. Many legal privilages are tied to one's status as a National, so these are all denied to Arabs even when they are citizens.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. More distortions on your part
Edited on Mon Oct-30-06 12:39 PM by Boston Critic
In fact much of the land is land NO ONE is living on. But you make it seem like Jews have taken over 90% of the country and leave only 10% for the Arabs. This is patently false.

Israel does not make any such distinction in *citizenship* between Jewish Israelis and non-Jewish Israelis. Where are you getting this crap?

Even Palestinain *non-citizens* have access to the Israeli courts, and have prevailed, including a landmark decision that required the Israeli government to shift the boundaries of the security wall (necessitated by the unending *terrorist* attacks from the territories).

And, once again, you dodge my original point. Please show which *Arab* nation gives greater freedom not only to non-Muslim, non-Arabs, but to their OWN citizens. We both know why you won't address that issue.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I'm not addressing other countries
Edited on Mon Oct-30-06 12:49 PM by ThomCat
because I don't know other countries. I only speak about what I know.

You're claiming that Israel is some fantasy land with equality and justice for all, and that's just a delusion.

Access to courts doesn't mean equal access, or equal results.
As I mentioned, Israel makes a distinction between being a Citizen and being a National, which in any other country would be the same thing. There are more rights associated with being a National than with being just a Citizen. The restrictions on land are well documented. Hell, I just did a google search and came up with numerous jouralists siting 93% of land being prohibited to Arab-Israelis.

The fact that Arabs insist that there is injustice and a two-tiered system, while only Israeli Jews insist that there isn't says a lot. The people at the top of any system always insist that it is just and ignore the words of those at the bottom.

You site unending terrorist attacks in the territories, but those are territories that Israel shouldn't be in to begin with, and you ignore and discout the terrorist attacks Israel has been responsible for, which vastly outnumber the attacks in the other direction both in number and in scope. Homes bulldozed, communities cut off, water access taken, civilians bombed and shot, etc.

Of course your next step will be to fantasize that everyone Israel robbed and killed was a terrorist, which would of course miraculously give the terrorists a bigger army (all dead now) than Israels have ever had, and would give Israel God-given aim. It's amazing that any of those terrorists are still alive given how deadly accurate I'm sure you'll say Israel has been in only killing terrorist.

I think the killing should end on both sides. But that won't happen until the big guy, Israel, makes a serious effort to stop stealing, maiming, killing, and discriminating, and gives back both land and water.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. And still you lie
As I've pointed out several times now, Israel makes no such distinction between being a "citizen" and being a "national."

You pile lie upon lie. Land that is reserved for forests is not open for development by ANYONE, but you pretend that this is "Jewish" land and that Arabs are forbidden. (You continue to evade the lack of freedom not only for non-Arabs and non-Muslims, but even for Arab Muslims in most Muslim countries.)

I cite terrorist attacks THROUGHOUT Israel, as if "terrorist attacks in the territories" is okay. And, no, Israel does not engage in terrorism. Get you damn head out of the cesspool of propaganda that you're wallowing in, and start facing reality.

The killing will not end until useful idiots stop pretending that Palestinian terrorists are "freedom fighters" and start demanding they renounce terror and recognize Israel's right to exist. Your obsession with and hatred of Israel is breaktaking in its audacity. You are so self-righteous you don't even feel the need to acquaint yourself with the facts.

You are part of the problem. If you want to help the Palestinians, stop making excuses for them.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I realize you may not like the source of this information...
But I've seen the same things on this page, which describes the differences in rights between Jews and Arabs on many different sights. For simplicity I posted the first link I found.

I would ask you to address the claims posted in this link.

http://www.arabhra.org/factsheets/factsheet1.htm
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. You have GOT to be kidding
You post something from some *Arab* website and think that's a fair assessment of Israel?

I'm not going to waste my time with you. You're not the slightest bit interested in what's going on there. You just want to have your prejudices confirmed.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 12:11 AM
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Your crocodile tears...
...for the poor "Palestinians" don't fool anyone.

After all, you don't seem to have much interest in Arabs oppressing Arabs, or anyone else for that matter.

No, it's just Israel that feeds your obsession.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #31
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. You're the one who's dodging...
...but it's not surprising. It's the same tired cliches about evil Israel and poor, poor Palestinians without the slightest notion of what's actually going on.

I see no need to treat you like you treat the Palestinians, as idiot children whose every paranoid fantasy must be indulged. You're buying into the slanted anti-Israel campaign and you will be called on it.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Um, because Israel's a *democracy*
And even the most "liberal" Arab dictatorship in the Middle East is still a dictatorship.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. This "democracy" is confiscating people's farmland, and
you have not addressed that.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. This democracy...
...is defending itself against repeated acts of terrorism that are part of the *policy* of the government of the Palestinian Authority.

That is the issue, and no matter how many times you want to pretend this is taking place in a vaccuum, and this is just innocent farmers getting their land stolen for no reason whatsoever, it will not change reality.

I'm glad the Democratic Party disavows the loony anti-Israel propaganda of the far, far left.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Sounds like Cheney's support for torture...
Because *they* are *evil*, anything goes.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. Israel is not Bush/Cheney
Democrats have traditional been big supporters of Israel. Some on the far, far left think that if Bush supports something they have to be against it. If Bush came out for separation of church and state tomorrow, they'd be joining Jerry Falwell in denouncing him.

The notion that building a *defensive* wall being anything at all like torture is absurd on its face.

In the face of constant and unremitting attacks, and an official policy calling for the complete destruction of ALL of Israel, you seem to be ready to criticize Israel for anything it does in its own defense.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #42
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. No, it's the same old meaning
Do you really imagine that the defensive wall is being put up for reasons other repeated terrorist attacks of Israel? Was the bomb in the Sbarro pizzaria imaginary? Did the students in the college cafeteria that was bombed imagine their injuries and the deaths of their classmates? Were the families sitting down to a holiday dinner imagining the bomb that took their lives?


Your problem is you simply can't engage the facts. You've got a fantasy where the Palestinians are poor, innocent oppressed Third World people who have to be forgiven everything, when their vicious attacks targeting *civilians* aren't outright ignored, and Israel is the evil, colonial power.

The reality is quite different. When Egypt and Jordan were ready to make peace, Israel was there.
When Arafat pretended he was ready to make peace, Israel was there as well. Arafat turned out to be a liar and a thief who was unable to rise to the occassion and help his own people, while Abbas has been too weak. The Hamas leaders don't even pretend they're interested in peace. They explicity reject all past agreements with Israel, do not recognize its right to exist, and call for its eventual destruction in its entirety.

But in your mind, Israel is defending itself against a chimera.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #42
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 04:45 PM
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. Is anything Israel's fault or responsibility? After all we are talking about
and territory occupied by Israel. Aren't they responsible for what happens when they steal that land and oppress the people who live there?
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. Occupied?
Do you know anything at all of the history of the region? Do you understand that there was *never* a sovereign Palestine, and that the local "Palestinians" didn't consider themselves anything but local Arabs until the 1960s?

Should there be a two state solution? Of course. I have no objection to the Palestinians controlling their own state. But when they offer nothing but attacks and hate (even some of their own politicians are admitting this) this call that Israel is in the wrong and that Israel must make more and more concession is nothing but Arab propaganda.

The people are oppressed? Then why do they follow leaders like Arafat and now Hamas who oppress them. If they would support peace and an end to violence they could have their own nation. As Abba Eban famously observed, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

And isn't interesting that from 1948 to 1967 -- when Egypt held Gaza and Jordan held the West Bank including East Jerusalem where Jewish holy sites were desecrated -- there was no call from the UN or the Arab world to end the "occupation." It is the highly selective nature of your outrage that emboldens the Palestinians to continue to reject peaceful resolutions.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. before I read any further, are you disputing the fact that the West
Bank is considered an occupied territory?
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. Of course it's not "occupied" territory
Occupied territory means that there was a nation there that was invaded by an outside force. There hasn't been an indepedent nation on that land in more than two thousand years.

What it is properly referred to as a matter of international law is "disputed territory." Much of the Palestinian Mandate was sliced off to form Trans-Jordan (now just Jordan), and the remaining sliver was to be divided in half between the new states of Israel and Palestine. The Israelis gratefully accepted this. The Arabs rejected it. Thus the 1948 war, where Jordan seized the West Bank.

After Egypt launched the 1967 war with its blockading of the Gulf of Aqaba, the Israelis took the West Bank. For more than a decade they waited for the Arabs to finally end their rejectionist policy (the notorious "three Nos: no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiation with Israel"). The shift from Labor to Likud brought about the settlement policy which, by and large was a mistake. (Building up settlements around Jerusalem was justified as Israel is never going to permit their capital to be divided again.)

But when you insist there is an Israel "occupation," you are pretending a history that never happened.

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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. When I look are various human rights groups' websites, as well as
various websites quoting UN references to these areas, they all use the words "occupied territories" when referring to the West Bank.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. And they are wrong
Why do you think the UN is a laughingstock?

Why do you think human rights groups have been criticized for their anti-Israel bias?

Claiming that Israel is an "occupier" is simply repeating Arab propaganda.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. Not an occupier? What, is Israel a "guest" of the West Bank?
even Sharon admitted Israel was an occupier.

What a twisted view of reality.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. Words have meanings
Israel currently rules over the dispute territory of the West Bank and that comes with certain responsibilities and obligations towards the indigenous population. That does NOT make them an "occupier" since that would presume the West Bank has been part of a sovereign state which it hasn't been for more than two thousand years.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. Words do have meanings. Isn't that why Israel's lobbyists put pressure
Edited on Tue Oct-31-06 12:51 PM by breakaleg
on US news media to not refer to certain settlements as settlements, but as neighbourhoods? To try to take away from the reality of what they are?

Israel has criticizes certain human rights groups as being biased against Israel. I'd hardly call that objective. Israel and the US may think the UN is a laughinstock, but they are the very nations that made it so. The rest of the world disagrees.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #61
68. The UN...
once called Zionism the same as racism. The UN is a joke, regardless of what you may think, when nations which slaughter their own citizens service on "human rights" panels and where the General Assembly issues resolutions agaisnt Israel like tissue paper but can bring itself to condemn actual human rights abuses in Cuba, in Chinese-occupied Tibet, in Saudi Arabia, then it is a frivolous, irrelevant organization. And it's not Israel's fault that the UN is so pathetic.

Here's a question for you: why hasn't Israel ever served on the Security Council when one of the rotating slots is open to *every* other nation?

BTW, could you direct me to your posts wherein you condemn Palestinian terrorism? Or Hezbollah firing missiles on civilians?

Anyone who knows the least bit on this subject can see your bias and your lack of knowledge.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #57
65. Name organizations/nations that do not consider the West Bank
occupied territory.
I'll start
1) Israel
2) oops, sorry, i'm stuck now. can you continue?
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #65
69. Please name...
the sovereign nation that Israel is "occupying."

Big hint: there is no such nation as "Palestine" and there never has been.

Please, take all the time you need.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. Are you saying the West Bank was available for any army that
claimed it? The land did not belong to the people who lived there, but the army that invaded?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. Deleted message
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. But nearly everyone on the planet considers this a military occupation that must
be ended.

Your main concern seems to be insulting people at DU, and not discussing the issues. Pity.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-01-06 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #75
78. To the contrary
I take the long-standing position of the Democratic party, and presidents from Truman to Clinton, that the answer to the problems of the Middle East must include a strong and secure Israel. I'm sorry if you find my pointing out that your positions are merely Arab propaganda points with no basis in fact "insulting."

Most of the planet remained silent when Syria invaded Lebanon, China took over Tibet, Russia attacked Chechnya, and while genocide continues to take place in Darfur. The fact that "nearly everyone on the planet" is ready to countenance evil and then attack Israel for defending itself merely shows the extent of the problem.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-01-06 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. The land was unclaimed
I've said this repeatedly -- and even if the moderators remove this reply the facts remain unchanged -- the land has not been part of a sovereign nation for more than 2000 years. It was part of the British mandate until 1948. Much of the land was given to create "Transjordan" (now Jordan). The remaining sliver was to be divided between the new state of Israel and a new Palestinian state. The Israelis gratefully accepted the partition. The Arabs responded by trying to destroy Israel. When the dust cleared, Israel survived, and Jordan had seized the West Bank and Egypt had taken Gaza. (Interesting no one refers to this period from 1948 to 1967 as an "occupation.")

After the 1967 war, started by Egypt's blockading of the Gulf of Aqaba, the West Bank fell into Israeli hands. They expected to use it at a bargaining chip in negotiations for a peaceful settlement but the Arab League responded with the infamous "Three Nos: no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiation with Israel."

The land remains diputed territory to this day subject to negotiations and a peace settlement. Much of it will someday be part of a Palestinian state, but there is no such entity yet nor has there ever been. And so long as the Palestinians engage in terrorism and rejectionism, it will not happen anytime soon.

You are pretending that an indigenous farmer creates sovereignty. If one were to follow your logic (which international law does not), then the Arabs ought to get out of the area right now since its all part of the historic Kingdom of Israel. Jews have lived uninterrupted on the land for millennia.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #50
56. Every human rights organization is wrong. Boston Critic is right....
and if you believe that....
I have got several SF Bay Area Bridges for sale -discount to DU folks, but you must act now.
PM me for details.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #56
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IntiRaymi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-04-06 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
80. YOU have got to be kidding
Haaretz is posted here on a regular basis.
Whis is fairness assumed on their part?
And your " *Arab* " statement points at your racism. You've confirmed your prejudices.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. The differences in education for Arab and Jewish children...
"Government-run Arab schools are a world apart from government-run Jewish schools," said Zama Coursen-Neff, counsel to the Children's Rights Division of Human Rights Watch. "In virtually every respect, Palestinian Arab children get an education inferior to that of Jewish children, and their relatively poor performance in school reflects this."

--snip--
The report found striking differences in virtually every aspect of the education system. The Education Ministry does not allocate as much money per head for Palestinian Arab children as it does for Jewish children. Their classes are 20 percent larger on average. They get far fewer enrichment and remedial programs-even though they need them more-in part because the Ministry uses a different scale to assess need for Jewish children. Their school buildings are in worse condition, and many communities lack kindergartens for three and four-year-olds. Palestinian Arab schoolchildren do not have the same access to counseling and vocational programs. One of the largest gaps is in special education, where disabled Palestinian Arab children get less funding and fewer services, have limited access to special schools, and lack appropriate curricula.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2001/12/05/isrlpa3399.htm
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Yes, let's talk about what the children learn...
More than 20 years ago, it was true that some Israeli textbooks used stereotyped images of Arabs; however, the books in use in public schools today are very different.15

Israeli texts go out of their way to avoid prejudices and to guard against generalizations. In one seventh grade lesson, students are given the following problem:

"Many people think: The dove is a bird that pursues peace. This belief is incorrect; it is a prejudice: people believe it without checking it. There are a lot of prejudices. For example:

1.The Jews control the world and exploit all those who live in it.
2.The blacks are inferior; they are incapable of being scientists.
3.The Arabs only understand the language of force...

Be ready to explain orally why these are prejudices." (I Understand, 1993, p.259)

In an elementary textbook on reading comprehension, students read how a Jewish girl was saved by an Arab woman. The book notes, The Arabs are like the Jews. There are nasty people among them and there are decent people and they should not be labeled (What is the Interpretation? Comprehension B, pp. 184-188).

Contrary to suggestions that Israelis do not accept the idea that Palestinians are a people, Israeli textbooks explain the origins of Palestinian nationalism. For example, a 9th grade text observes that during the 1930's, Arab nationalist movements evolved all over the Middle East. Many of the Arabs of Eretz Yisrael also began formulating a national consciousness in other words, the perception that they are not just part of the larger Arab nation, but are also Palestinians (The Twentieth Century - On the Threshold of Tomorrow, Grade 9, 1999, p.44).

While Palestinian texts omit references to Jewish contributions to the world, the Israeli books recognize the achievements of Arabs and Muslims. One text highlights the Arab role as creators of culture: ...they were the first to discover the existence of infectious diseases. They were also the first to build public hospitals. Because of their considerable contribution to various scientific fields, there are disciplines that to this day are called by their Arabic names, such as algebra. Islams contributions are also acknowledged in the same passage: The Islamic religion also influenced the development of culture. The obligation to pray in the direction of Mecca led to the development of astronomy, which helped identify the direction according to the heavenly bodies. The duty to make a pilgrimage developed geography and gave a push to the writing of travel books. These books, and the Arabs' high capability in map drawing, helped develop trade. To this day, merchants use Arabic words, such as bazaar, check and tariff (From Generation to Generation, Vol. b, 1994, p. 220)

Palestinian textbooks also negate the Jewish connection to the Holy Land while Israeli texts show respect for the Arab/Muslim attachment to the land. The Land of Israel in general, and Jerusalem in particular, have been sanctified more and more in Islamic thought as Islam has developed and spread, both religiously and geographically. As Islam absorbed more and more of the world conquered by it, so it adapted and Islamized the values that it absorbed, including the holiness of the Land of Israel, its flora and its water, living in it, the sanctity of being buried in it and the like. All these became from that time onwards part of orthodox Islam (H. Peleg, G. Zohar, This is the Land - Introduction to Land of Israel Studies for the Upper Grades, 2000, pp. 161-162.)

Israeli textbooks contain a plurality of views, including those that conflict with conventional research and are critical of Israeli policies. Controversial topics, such as the disputed territories, the refugee issue, and the status of Israeli Arabs are covered from multiple viewpoints. For example, one book quotes historian Benny Morriss unconventional position attributing the flight of Palestinians in 1947-1948 more to the actions of Jewish forces than the instructions of the leaders of Arab countries (From Exile to Independence - The History of the Jewish People in Recent Generations, vol. 2, 1990, p. 312).

The Arab point of view is also represented. For example, a history text notes how Israels government treated Anwar Sadats 1971 peace proposal with scorn out of the feeling of power and superiority that had taken hold of Israeli society following the Six Day War. After his proposal had been rejected and the political stalemate continued, Sadat decided to go to war (K. Tabibian, Journey to the Past - The Twentieth Century, By Dint of Freedom, 1999, p. 313).

Israeli texts also use simulation games to help students understand different perspectives on an issue. In one, students are told to divide into groups representing Jewish and Palestinian journalists and prepare a report on the discussion in the United Nations leading to the partition resolution. Students are then asked to discuss the differences between the reports of the Jewish and Palestinian journalists (K. Tabibian, Journey To The Past - The Twentieth Century, By Dint of Freedom, 1999, p. 294).

Israel is not perfect and exceptions do exist. Some generalizations and patronizing terminology are found in textbooks used in the ultra-Orthodox schools. These schools comprise less than 10 percent of the Israeli educational system, and the same Israeli watchdog organizations that have pointed out problems in Palestinian textbooks have also publicized the need to remove the handful of inappropriate references from school books in this system.16

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf18....
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. you didn't respond to my post.
Does Israel spend more money per child on Jewish children than on Arab children? Is the education system where Arab children go to school inferior to that of Jewish children?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #26
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 12:55 AM
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #41
45. And they die, blah, blah, blah
Israel makes mistakes. Israel is open to criticism. Israelis do it all the time.

It is the one-sidedness of *your* criticism that is at issue. Israel having to defend itself against terrorism is not "propaganda." It is a day-to-day reality. And if you think it means nothing, you are saying that Israeli life is meaningless.

Do you really want to make that argument?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-04-06 01:59 PM
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. Much land is owned by the Jewish National Fund. Only for Jewish population.
According to Jewish National Fund by-laws, these lands are not to be sold or leased for a long term to non-Jews. In short, the JNF is one of the main tools used by the state to restrict non-Jewish ownership and use of land in Israel.

Much of this land was taken during the Nakba.
Learn more here:
http://www.zochrot.org/index.php?lang=english

Zochrot <"Remembering"> is a group of Israeli citizens working to raise awareness of the Nakba, the Palestinian catastrophe of 1948.

The Zionist collective memory exists in both our cultural and physical landscape, yet the heavy price paid by the Palestinians -- in lives, in the destruction of hundreds of villages, and in the continuing plight of the Palestinian refugees -- receives little public recognition.

Zochrot works to make the history of the Nakba accessible to the Israeli public so as to engage Jews and Palestinians in an open recounting of our painful common history. We hope that by bringing the Nakba into Hebrew, the language spoken by the Jewish majority in Israel, we can make a qualitative change in the political discourse of this region. Acknowledging the past is the first step in taking responsibility for its consequences. This must include equal rights for all the peoples of this land, including the right of Palestinians to return to their homes.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. The actual truth about Arabs and land in Israel
In the early part of the century, the Jewish National Fund was established by the World Zionist Congress to purchase land in Palestine for Jewish settlement. This land, and that acquired after Israel's War of Independence, was taken over by the government. Of the total area of Israel, 92 percent belongs to the State and is managed by the Land Management Authority. It is not for sale to anyone, Jew or Arab. The remaining 8 percent of the territory is privately owned. The Arab Waqf (the Muslim charitable endowment), for example, owns land that is for the express use and benefit of Muslim Arabs. Government land can be leased by anyone, regardless of race, religion or sex. All Arab citizens of Israel are eligible to lease government land.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf18....
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #20
58. What no answer?
After you lie about land in Israel was exposed, you could at least have the decency to admit your error.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-01-06 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #20
79. Day 2 -- Still waiting
You made a false claim about Israeli land. I provided the facts. Still waiting for the acknowledgement that your accusation was wrong.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. Geez, we've kind of gone off topic here
That the High Court approved this route is shameful.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
21. Why did the Court allow Israel to confiscate important agricultural
land that belongs to the Palestinians? Why can't Palestinians access their land, their farmland?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Instead of inaccurate accusations, why not answer the question?
Again, why take prime agricultural land. Isn't it our responsibility, as US citizens, that sends so much aid to Israel, that it not support this confiscation of Palestinian land? This is a monument of hate. A monument to military power to usurp the land of the oppressed.

if this Wall is about "protecting Israel" why was it built Palestinian land? Why not on the Green Line (which would also create much suffering, but probably would have not earned the condemnation of the World Court).

Can you answer without an accusation toward me? It just seems you have been so unkind here.

http://gush-shalom.org/archives/wall_yediot_eng.html
This is a dated, but still relevant.

The maps that Sharon's people asked for were the maps that Prof. Sofer, a geographer at Haifa University and the prophet of "the Arab demographic danger," presented in a lecture at the Herzliya Conference a few months earlier. Borders should be set immediately for the State of Israel,
Sofer said at the time, otherwise the Arabs will inundate us and there will be no Jewish entity here anymore. The West Bank, he explained, must be split into three parts,three cantons, basically three sausages. One sausage from Jenin to Ramallah, a second sausage from Bethlehem to Hebron and a third tiny sausage around the city of Jericho. An electric fence must be put up around these three Palestinian sausages, which extend on less than half the West Bank, and finish the business.

Prof. Sofer and Sharon, then leader of the opposition, conversed at the Herzliya conference. They have not been in constant touch since then, but when Sofer sees the map of the separation fence going up, he smiles to himself. "This is exactly my map," he says, "it's as if an exact copy is being put up."

Sofer takes too much credit for himself. This map is not something new for Sharon.

"I haven't sat with the prime minister recently," says Ron Nahman, the mayor of Ariel,"but the map of the fence, the sketch of which you see here, is the same map I saw during every visit Arik made here since 1978. He told me he has been thinking about it since 1973."

There are some who call this plan of Sharon's "the bantustan plan" (according to Ha'aretz, Sharon used this term when talking to the former prime minister of Italy four years ago), there are those who call it the canton plan. But it is clear that this plan is now taking on concrete and barbed wire. Only now it is called the seamline plan. Sharon is keeping close tabs on the plan. He comes himself to the site, and sometimes even sketches exactly where the fence is to run. Military sources (the army is the official body responsible for drawing the fence) said recently that every question that comes up goes to the Prime Minister's Office, to Sharon's adviser on settler affairs, Uzi Keren, and to Sharon himself. Keren,incidentally, drew up a separation map while a member of the Third Way movement, almost identical to Sharon's map and to Prof. Sofer's map. Something strange has been happening in recent months to the separation fence. What began thanks to a campaign of the Israeli Left and Center under Barak-style slogans of "we are here, they are there," it has become the baby of the Sharon government. The same Sharon who during the unity government opposed building the fence and was dragged into it almost against his will, on any given day has 500 bulldozers at work, paving and building one of the largest projects in the history of the country, perhaps the largest.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #28
34. You keep dodging the issue
You want to argue about how terrible Israel is being as if they are acting in a vaccuum. Why do you give the Palestinians a pass and insist Israel has no right to defend itself against terrorists committed to its total destruction, and who *target* children, teenagers, grandparents and other *civilians* with bombs meant to maximize the maiming and killing?

You can't talk about the defense wall without discussing *why* it is being built. And paranoid fantasies about evil Israel trying to destroy the innocent Palestinians just don't cut it.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. "Defending" by confiscating farmland? Bulldozing homes.
Edited on Tue Oct-31-06 12:46 AM by Tom Joad
I asked you not why it was being built, but why it was being built in this particular location.
If it is to protect Israelis from Palestinians, why is it being built in many places that it puts Palestinians on the Israeli side, rather than putting them on the other side?

Isn't this a sure-fire way to make the conflict worse? Anyone who wants peace for Israel/Palestine would want an alternative.

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #38
47. Where is your call for the Palestinians to take responsibility?
Israel is *defending* itself against attacks against an enemy with no interest in peace. They are going to do what is in the country's best interest, subject to court challenge. Palestinians have gotten the boundaries redrawn in some cases. Not here. I shed no tears.

Instead, I look at the victims and their families:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/...
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #47
51. You say that as if Israel has an interest in peace and Palestinians don't.
If Israel is so interested in peace why are they continuing with settlement expansion in the West Bank? There is no excuse for that. But I'm sure you'll find one.
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Boston Critic Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. And you would be wrong
I think the settlement policy was a terrible mistake (with exceptions). I note that when it came time to leave the Sinai (after peace with Egypt) and Gaza (unilaterally), Israel moved the settlers out and tore down the settlements. (In the case of Gaza it was because Abbas said the land would be used for multi-family housing rather than single family units.)

But when you bitch and moan about settlements and dismiss out of hand criticism of Palestinian terrorism, I would say your priorities are very, very wrong.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 12:24 PM
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #47
54. Day 2. Still No explanation as to why Israel is putting the Wall in
Palestinian land, taking farmland.
Why not in Israel's land? If it were simply for "defensive measures" that would be where it would be built. Simple question, only gets accusations and avoidance.
Taking land is an aggressive, violent act. It will lead to more violence for Israelis and Palestinians. The wall will cause more violence, not end it. It will not make Israel more secure. Because it makes Palestinians more vulnerable.

Anyone who cares about the situation would would demand that Israel not confiscate Palestinian land to build their "fence".
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