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Meshal: Israel does exist, but I don't recognize its legitimacy

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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:09 PM
Original message
Meshal: Israel does exist, but I don't recognize its legitimacy
Exiled Hamas political bureau chief Khaled Meshal on Thursday said that while Israel did exist, he refused to recognize its legitimacy, and blamed Prime Minister Ehud Olmert for the delay in the release of kidnapped Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit.

In an interview to the Arabic daily al-Hayat, Meshal blamed Israel for the fact that Shalit remains in captivity saying "what's causing his release to fail is Olmert's stubborness."

According to Meshal, the greatest hurdle in the matter is Israel's insistence that Shalit be released before any Palestinians jailed in Israel are freed in a prisoner exchange.

Meshal said he acknowledges Israel's existence, but would won't recognize its existence as legitimate.


more...
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shergald Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. I mentioned this on an earlier thread.
If Israel would reciprocate and agree to a mutual recognition of rights to statehood, Israel and Palestine, then I believe this claim to illegitimacy would cease, and it would bring everyone to the negotiating table.

The problem, I'm afraid, apart from Hamas' lack of acquiescence, is that none of the major Israeli political parties, not Labor, Likud, nor Kadima, recognize the aspirations of the Palestinian people to their own state. The most liberal of them, if you can call it that, is Labor's guarantee of a bantustan in the West Bank plus Gaza. That is precisely what Barak offered the Palestinians in 2000, which they rightly declined (the so-called "generous offer"). It was not an independent state or country then, and there is no commitment to one by Israel now.

You heard the saying, fool me once....etc. Israel has to get real.

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shergald Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. For reference sake, these are the party platforms.
Labors Platform:

1. Jerusalem: United Jerusalem, the capital of Israel, under Israeli sovereignty. The Palestinian residents of the city will enjoy municipal rights in the quarters in which they reside, and special arrangements will be established for the sites sacred to Christianity and Islam. 2. Self-Determination for the Palestinians: The Labor Party recognizes the Palestinians' right to self-determination, and does not rule out in this connection the establishment of a Palestinian state with limited sovereignty. 3. Security: The Jordan river will be Israel's eastern security border and there will be no other army stationed to the west of it. 4. Borders and Settlements: Israel extends its sovereignty over areas that are major Jewish settlement blocs. 5. The Right of Return: Israel does not recognize the right of return of Palestinians to areas under Israeli sovereignty. Israel will negotiate with the Palestinians on allowing the return to areas under Palestinian control.

Kadima Party Platform

1. The Israeli nation has a national and historic right to the whole of Israel. However, in order to maintain a Jewish majority, part of the Land of Israel must be given up to maintain a Jewish and democratic state. 2. Israel shall remain a Jewish state and homeland. Jewish majority in Israel will be preserved by territorial concessions to Palestinians. 3. Jerusalem and large settlement blocks in the West Bank will be kept under Israeli control. 4. The Israeli national agenda to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and achieve two states for two nations will be the road map. It will be carried out in stages: dismantling terror organizations, collecting firearms, implementing security reforms in the Palestinian Authority, and preventing incitement. At the end of the process, a demilitarized Palestinian state devoid of terror will be established.

PEACE AND SECURITY chapter of the Likud Party Platform

1. Declaration of a Palestinian State: A unilateral Palestinian declaration of the establishment of a Palestinian state will constitute a fundamental and substantive violation of the agreements with the State of Israel and the scuttling of the Oslo and Wye accords. The government will adopt immediate stringent measures in the event of such a declaration.

2. Settlements: The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.

3. The Permanent Status: The overall objectives for the final status with the Palestinians are: to end the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians on the basis of a stable, sustainable agreement and replace confrontation with cooperation and good neighborliness, while safeguarding Israel's vital interests as a secure and prosperous Zionist and Jewish state.

4. Self-Rule: The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan River. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel's existence, security and national needs.

4. Jerusalem: Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem, including the plan to divide the city.

5. The Jordan River as a Permanent Border: The Jordan Valley and the territories that dominate it shall be under Israeli sovereignty. The Jordan River will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel. The Kingdom of Jordan is a desirable partner in the permanent status arrangement between Israel and the Palestinians in matters that will be agreed upon.

6. Security Areas: The government succeeded in significantly reducing the extent of territory that the Palestinians expected to receive in the interim arrangement.

(from an article by Nakamura on the Electronic Intifada)
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shergald Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Israel is not committed to peace, the Road Map, or any solution
that would give the Palestinians their own state or country.

So I ask again, why should Hamas commit to Israel's right to exist? Israel has no commitment to the right of Palestine to exist. Just the opposite: it has never agreed with the two-state solution. While negotiating at Camp David/Taba with the Labor government, settlement activity on the West Bank and Gaza had reached its highest level ever. In short, it says one thing, then act in a manner the implies just the opposite: that it prefers land to peace in the attempt to achieve the Greater Israel dream.

Hamas is not unaware of these developments. The assurance of mutual existence is therefore a negotiating point, but Israel will not consider it. It would rather, as it has in the past, act in a manner to avoid peace initiatives, UN resolutions, even efforts by the surrounding Arab states to welcome Israel and give it regional legitimacy, anything to stall. If it is not one thing it is another, another excuse for not negotiating.

Religious or historical Zionism continues to be the problem. As Uri Avnery stated in the recent past, once Israel occupied the West Bank, the eating (first settlements in Hebron) stimulated the appetite to where Israel wants to consume the whole table. To bad, really. Israelis will have to continue to live in the region for centuries to come. Will it exist in a state of paranoia and perpetual hostility, or will it be as a peaceful nation? Israel has to choose what kind of future it wants; not the Palestinians.

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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. Meshal: Israel is a cancer that must be pulled out by its roots
Haaretz updated the article.

"Exiled Hamas political bureau chief Khaled Meshal on Thursday called Israel a "cancer that must be pulled out by its roots."

"The time has come for the Palestinians who have been scattered throughout the world return to their homes, and Arabs and Muslims should lend a hand to impose this on the world," Meshal added.

Meshal made the comments during a dinner breaking the Ramadan fast in Damascus, and the statements were also published on a Hamas-linked Web site."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/773550.html



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shergald Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Is there a link to the website?
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. article is being updated by Haaretz
read down 4 paragraphs of the currect version.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. I hate when they do that!
UGH! Just make a link to a new article! Thanks for letting us know about the change.
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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. Well, I'm Sure The Bombings, Raids And Economic Isolation Will Eventually
erode Hamas's legitimacy.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Hamas is doing a bang-up job on their own.
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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Among The Palestinians?
We saw what happened when Abbas tried to negotiate with the Israelis. Now the Hamas government have a convenient boogieman to explain the problems.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Hamas is contributing to its own demise.
The hardly need the "help" of the Israelis or anyone else for that matter.
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shergald Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Hamas is correct in rejecting unilateralism. Your move Olmert.
Here are three articles that I hope Olmert will consult before acting foolishly, since the convergence plan now seems dead and negotiations stalemated by Hamas' adamancy. Hamas may have a point: why should they recognize Israel when Israel refuses to recognize the rights of the Palestinians to self determination and their own independent, sovereign country.

Illusions of Unilateralism Dispelled in Israel

Yoav Peled - MERIP - "The peace course is already urged by what is left of Israels liberal punditry, and the Olmert government, desperate to hold on to power, has released a few trial balloons in that direction, as well as in all others. It is still quite difficult to imagine the peace camp being revived, or what its concrete political program would look like. But the elimination of the unilateral option by the actions of Hamas and Hizballah raises the hope, for the first time in six years, that this line of development is at least possible."
http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=16774

The new rejectionist

Gershon Baskin - The Jerusalem Post -"Preconditionality, it should be understood, is also reciprocal. If Israel demands recognition, than it must grant recognition. Even senior Hamas leaders have said that they would be willing to recognize Israel, but first Israel must say which Israel they should recognize - in what borders - and that Israel too must recognize Palestine."
http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=16792

The King of the Jungle

Rima Merriman -- The Electronic Intifada -- "The logic of the jungle is the logic of the Oslo Accords, which is basically a (mis)understanding between the strong and the weak. For such a relationship to work in the animal world, the weak party must continually show submission by exposing its neck and belly to the dominant party, and the strong party must continually strut its stuff. Among human beings, such a relationship is a recipe for elemental violence, not elemental harmony"
http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=16707

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shergald Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. More on Hamas' wise stance toward Israel.
Hamas against recognition of Israel as precondition to talks; not excluding peaceful coexistence

Reuters - Aljazeera.net - "Let`s force Israel to compromise. Let us keep some cards in our possession. We have seen the fate of those who accepted recognition as a precondition for negotiations. They have gained nothing. (...) A joint Palestinian government could be formed if we listen to our prisoners, the cries of our wounded and the souls of our martyrs," said.

http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=16809

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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Hamas are fools.
Despite your "quote," which should actually read, "Let`s...force Israel to compromise.", the real `Hamas will not surrender to those wanting to mount a coup against it, will not recognize Israel and will not abandon armed resistance,` he said.

Basically, it is the same old shit, "we reserve the right to continue to kill you and though we may live beside you in 'hudna' there will be a time limit before we return to the principles of our charter and reclaim all of the land of the Palestinians."
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shergald Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. 39 YEARS OF MILITARY OCCUPATION
And it is Palestinians who are the problem? Take a look at the results of it again, which I posted in a thread you read, maybe once. Read it again. It is the military occupation since 1967 by Israel that caused all of that killing, wounding, destruction, and suffering on both sides that it reports. And for what?

TO CONFISCATE LAND BELONGING TO PALESTINIANS FOR SOME DREAM TO ATTAIN RELIGOUS OR HISTORICAL ISRAEL. The Palestinians were screwed once in 1948; now Israel wants to screw them twice.

And you are surprised at Hamas' stance?
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. read.
I didn't say that Palestinians were the "problem." Hamas, the murderous new leaders, who care not a flip about their people, are the problem.
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shergald Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Short memory and misconception.
Hamas arose in response to the first Intifada, the first major Palestinian revolt against the military occupation. Just as Hezbollah developed in response to the first invasion of Lebanon in 1982, when Sharon murdered over 17,000 Shiite Moslems and Palestinian refugees, and began their long occupation of southern Lebanon. Both organizations were paramilitary groups, who were responding to Israeli aggression and brutality toward them. Both organizations are also political and provided social, medical, and other basic services to their people.

You just got things backward in your mind. You view Israel as the victim and the Palestinians as ungrateful aggressors, after all Israel has done for them.

Perhaps you should rethink the propaganda that Americans have been fed these past twenty years. Over 780,000 viewers have seen this documentary and are no longer deluded about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. WOrd gets around.

Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land (with Noam Chomsky, Robert Fisk, Arik Ackerman, founder of Rabbis for Human Rights, and many others)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-78281237143849...

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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Actually these actions are eroding Israel's standing in the world
community. Israel will be held accountable for their actions towards the Palestinians at some point. They are eroding away any good will they had on a daily basis.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-14-06 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Actually, save "rolling over and taking it,"
...everything Israel seems to do works against it in the standing of the world, except for a few places.
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shergald Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Aegis, you seem to have a library of "cute" remarks.
If Israel ever stops the occupation, you will no longer need them.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. and...
...if Hamas succeeds in fulfilling their charter, I also won't need them, nor will you need your pointless propaganda.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. If they were wise they would take that lesson to heart....
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-15-06 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. so Israel should just lay down her arms...
good to know where you stand!
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