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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 05:28 AM
Original message
"Israeli raid violates cease-fire"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14420157 /


No one could have known that would happen!



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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 05:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. No surprise here
not if you heard Olmert.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 05:51 AM
Response to Original message
2. Did they change the title?
"Israeli forces operate deep inside Lebanon"
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 06:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. gee, who didn't see that coming?
israel is a rogue state.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
4. What does that mean as far as sanctions or penalty for breaking the
cease-fire? Say Hezbollah does not return fire or retaliate, what does the world community do to recognize "bad behavior" by Israel in a case like this?
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Israel has a pattern of violating its agreements and ignoring the UN
resolutions pointed at them. I have seen a call for a global boycott of Israel. That was the only tactic that convinced South Africa to change its racist policies.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
5. shocked! I say!
not really. More and more I realize Hersh was absolutely correct. This whole operation is US led to remove possible retaliatory armaments against Israel BEFORE we attack Iran.
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Waya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
6. Dunno why anyone should be surprised......
.....Israel is just acting true to form......
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
34. Israel is acting to defend itself; no surprise there
Let Kofi Annan jawbone about it all he wants until he gets a solid UN peacekeeper force in place
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
8. hizbollah in violation as well
by refusing to unconditionally release the two israeli soldiers and refusing to disarm.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. that is in negotiation
I don't think Israel has yet protested the delay as a breach of the truce
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. The release of the two captured soldiers wasn't addressed in res. 1701.
The resolution also states that only "government-sanctioned" bodies may bear arms. The Lebanese government has already stated that it has no intention of disarming Hizbullah, therefore they are "goverment-sanctioned" -- and hence, not in violation of resolution 1701.

sw
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
9. kick
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IntiRaymi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
11. These things happen.
A ceasefire is merely a set of words saying this and that. But, the reality on the ground will generally completely ignore the document.
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maalak Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
12. the cease-fire was already violated...

by Hezbollah restocking arms... which is what Hezbollah has done in the past so no real surprise there:

unfortunately it's not a real surprise to me that so many would be quick to condemn Israel for not allowing Hezbollah time to replenish their weapons

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4785963.stm


OP3. Emphasizes the importance of the extension of the control of the government of Lebanon over all Lebanese territory in accordance with the provisions of resolution 1559 (2004) and resolution 1680 (2006), and of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, for it to exercise its full sovereignty, so that there will be no weapons without the consent of the government of Lebanon and no authority other than that of the government of Lebanon; no sales or supply of arms and related materiel to Lebanon except as authorized by its government,

OP15. Decides further that all states shall take the necessary measures to prevent, by their nationals or from their territories or using their flag vessels or aircraft,

(a) the sale or supply to any entity or individual in Lebanon of arms and related materiel of all types, including weapons and ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment, and spare parts for the aforementioned, whether or not originating in their territories, and

(b) the provision to any entity or individual in Lebanon of any technical training or assistance related to the provision, manufacture, maintenance or use of the items listed in subparagraph (a) above, except that these prohibitions shall not apply to arms, related material, training or assistance authorized by the Government of Lebanon or by UNIFIL as authorized in paragraph 11; full implementation of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, and of resolutions 1559 (2004) and 1680 (2006), that require the disarmament of all armed groups in Lebanon, so that, pursuant to the Lebanese cabinet decision of July 27, 2006, there will be no weapons or authority in Lebanon other than that of the Lebanese state,


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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. People are complaining coz Israel violated the cease-fire...
unfortunately it's not a real surprise to me that so many would be quick to condemn Israel for not allowing Hezbollah time to replenish their weapons

You might not have noticed but Israel launched an attack within Lebanon after the cease-fire went into effect. Rather than trying to shift the blame, it might be better to actually be capable of criticising Israel when it does the wrong thing, and imo, this attack shouldn't have happened...
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maalak Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. like i said, the cease-fire was already violated. read the terms.
Rather than trying to shift the blame, it might be better to actually be capable of criticising Israel when it does the wrong thing, and imo, this attack shouldn't have happened..

if Hezbollah was actually being disarmed (as they were supposed to be according to the agreement) instead of being resupplied and Israel went ahead and attacked them anyway, i absolutely would criticize them...

but really, why should Hezbollah be allowed to violate the cease-fire and start stockpiling weapons again?



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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. And like I said yr shifting the blame...
If Hezbollah were stockpiling weapons, how does that justify Israel violating the ceasefire by launching an attack inside Lebanon? It doesn't...
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maalak Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. you read the cease-fire agreement, i assume...

by restocking (rather than disarming), then the cease-fire agreement is no longer valid.

if Lebanon and the UN aren't willing to disarm Hezbollah, then Israel has little other choice.



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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. That's a SLAM, DUNK!
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Ah, the usual refrain of Middle-East ceasefires
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 04:15 AM by eyl
no matter what the ther side has done, it's always Israel that violates them....

Incidently, it's not just a question of restocking arms, there have also been some attacks on IDF troops.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Have you heard, eyl?
Israel violated the ceasefire by carrying out a raid, inside Lebanon, here are some details of
the raid. I'd thought I'd post them, since the *fact* that Israel violated the ceasefire, appears
to be being ignored.



Israel's raid in the Bekaa Valley

Saturday's raid by Israeli commandos in eastern Lebanon was carried out by officers from Israel's General Staff Reconnaissance Unit (Sayeret Matkal), known as "The Unit".

It is generally considered the Israeli Defense Forces' most elite special forces unit. Its primary function is to penetrate deep into enemy territory to gather field intelligence.

Such raids are top-secret and little has been reported in the Israeli press. However a number of details have emerged, mostly from Lebanon.

>snip

One Israeli officer was killed and two other officers were wounded in what unnamed Israeli military sources quoted by Haaretz newspaper said was a fierce battle:

"We had great luck that the operation didn't result in 10 fatalities from the force."

The BBC's John Leyne, who visited the scene of the attack, said the Israelis seemed to have run into much fiercer resistance than they anticipated before they were extracted by helicopter.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5268870.st...

______________________

Israeli commando raid alarms UN

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan has expressed deep concern over Saturday's Israeli commando raid deep inside Lebanon, calling it a truce violation.

>snip

Saturday's raid centred on the village of Bodai, west of the city of Baalbek, some 100km (60 miles) north of the Israeli border.

It was the most serious incident since the UN-brokered truce came into effect on Monday.

"The secretary general is deeply concerned about a violation by the Israeli side of the cessation of hostilities," a spokesman for Mr Annan said on the UN website.

Such violations "endanger the fragile calm", the statement said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5267736.st...

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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Have you heard, Englander?
(for starters)

About 4 mortar rounds were fired inside southern Lebanon late Monday, hours after a cease-fire between Israel and Lebanon's Hezbollah guerrillas, the Israeli military reported early Tuesday.

The rockets landed inside Lebanese territory, and Israeli forces will not respond to their firing, a military spokesman told CNN's Chris Lawrence.


CNN

not to mention that Lebanon's statements they would not disarm Hizbullah - in southern Lebanon in particular - are basically an announcement that they will not abide by the terms of the cease-fire (see paragraph 8 of UNSCR 1701)

So I'll ask again - why is Israel the only one expected to abide by cease-fires?
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. 'Monsieur Non, meet Mr Sequitur'.
Completely ignoring the *facts* about the Israeli violation of the ceasefire doesn't magically mean
it didn't happen.

You're equating a couple of mortar rounds with a deliberate violation of the ceasefire, the raid
by idf commandos 100km inside Lebanon? And now UN Security Council Resolutions are Good Things?
Priceless.
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. And ignoring Hizbullah's prior violations
Edited on Tue Aug-22-06 02:28 PM by eyl
will make them go away?

The morter rounds, as noted were an example, not the sole incident.

You know what, let's save some time. Are there any Hizbullah actions which you would consider a breach of the cease-fire?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 05:50 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. Neocon nonsense. n/t
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 05:17 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Well, there you go again.
Zero mention of the utter disregard for the ceasefire by Israeli forces, & an attempt to deflect
criticism of said same, by completely misunderstanding, & ignoring the points I made. I was arguing
against the fact that you were ignoring the Israeli violations, I didn't mention Hizbollah at all,
that doesn't mean that I agree with, or support, or am ignoring any actions by Hizbollah. Try
reading what I actually say, rather than what you think I say, or what is not said.

Are there any Hizbullah actions which you would consider a breach of the cease-fire?

Translation;

I can't find any breaches of the ceasefire.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-19-06 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
15. The rules for cease fire apply to all parties, except Israel.
Israel must make its own rules, because it is a special state.
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maalak Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. so should it apply to Hezbollah?

the terms here were clear. disarm Hezbollah and restore control by the Lebanese army... if they aren't willing or able to do that, then how can you reasonably condemn Israel?

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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Disarm Hezbollah and Israel. Sounds fair to me.
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maalak Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. where does the UN agreement call for the IDF to disarm?
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
33. Who would disarm Hezbollah? Iran? Syria?
The UN? The Lebanese Army?
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. Aye, the Most-Moral-Army is exempt from ceasefires. n/t
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. defensive manuvers
the cease fire does allow israel to conduct defensive manuvers. one can question if the raid into the bekka valley was defensive but it is allowed.
however hizbollah is clearly not allowed to rearm in the cease fire agreement. but they were attempting to do just that.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Where's the proof? The Arab media says Israel was trying to capture one
of Hizbullah's leaders. Just today I've seen reference to Arab speculation that the Israeli commando raid was an attempt to find the 2 captured IDF soldiers.

Why should anyone take Israel's claims as anything but a cover story? If they knew of an arms shipment, why weren't bombing some trucks somewhere? Why send in a commando team to stop an arms shipment?

One final question; why are people so ready to believe bullshit without giving the least bit of thought as to whether the line they are being fed makes any logical sense whatsoever?

sw
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
32. Actually , the rules for cease fire apply to all parties.
The UN just seems to have this little blind spot in regard to seeing violations by Hezbollah
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