What does one mean when they say they oppose Zionism?

[fujiyama]

Is this playing semantic games, similar to when people say "but Arabs are semites too" when asked about antisemitism? Was MLK Jr. correct with his quote “When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”

After all, Zionism as a movement was about establishing a Jewish state and in that sense it was sucessful. Therefore, doesn't opposing Zionism mean the same thing in that case as opposing Israel's existence? Isn't it a denial of reality?

I understand that many will then say that they oppose the idea of a Jewish state. Some would say we should establish the goal of one-state of a combined Israel and Palestine as a secular nation. But seriously is there even the slightest chance of something like that ever working out? Not likely, considering the whole point of Zionism was establishing a nation where Jews would be in the majority, free of any sort of persecution. And at this point, with the acrimony built up over the years and with the record of Muslim majority nations operating as secular democracies, what evidence is there such a solution could be worked out?

There are certain realities that people have to face in order for peace to eventually succeede. On a few points, Israel as a nation state will not give up on. The most fundamental of that is Israel remaining a Jewish majority state.

[no_hypocrisy]

1. I think, that for one thing, "opposing Zionism" is overgeneralized, when

what they really mean is Israel's borders. They aren't the same as pre-1967 and they expanded as spoils of war and nobody telling them to move them back. "Zionism" has the suggestion of the borders to encompass the land of other sovereign nations that by the right of Abraham in the Old Testament, his decendents (the Jewish people) believe belongs to Israel. Unfortunately, this vague and ambiguous land survey is frought with enticing hostility from other nations. Maybe the world could have lived with Israel as it was established in 1945, but Israel expanding its borders and taking more land by wars will be challenged, by reason of "Zionism" or otherwise. It has nothing to do with being a Jewish nation. It has to do with secular land-grabbing.

[chimpymustgo]

2. What would happen if, over time Christians and Arabs became the majority

in Israel? How would that work in a democracy?

[JI7]

3. i think so

especially when you see people bringing up the 1940s and whatever else when we are discussing the current Israel/Lebanon and other issues.

i also notice some who have problems with Israel being a Jewish state have no problem with the many other surrounding states being Muslim states.

i don't see why we can't just criticize Israel and what it is doing without getting into all this "zionist, pnac, aipac," type stuff. why the need to turn everything into some huge conspiracy.

why is it hard to believe that Israel would go overboard based on their own fears alone and not because of some huge conspiracy. especially when you see all the things people say with wanting to destroy Israel and the attacks on Jews around the world like the recent Seattle shooting and the vandalism in Rome.

i criticize Israel and their failure to stop terrorism and how they are killing more innocent people, especially children while not just failing at stopping terrorism but probably making it worse.

[Hissyspit]

4. The Palestinian and Arab populations in and around Israel

are greatly increasing, at a faster rate than the Jewish population (if I'm not mistaken). That is a reality that people have to face, Israels, in particular. There are a lot of realities that people have to face in order for peace to succeed.

[Karmakaze]

5. Was opposing Aparthied South Africa...

The same as being Anti-White?

[chimpymustgo]

6. Excellent question. Look forward to the "answers".

Not to mention that racism is very much at the heart of the issue at hand.

[JI7]

7. except many who are being critical of Israel ARE anti Jewish

they aren't just being critical of what Israel is currently doing with the attacks in Lebanon which are killing innocent people. they are attacking the fact that Israel exists and i believe that is partly what the OP is saying.

it is possible to acknowledge there is anti semetism while also condemning what Israel is doing in Lebanon.

[Karmakaze]

10. What is wrong with attacking the fact that Israel exists?

Please explain to me how opposing the existence of a nation founded on and dedicated to racism is in itself racist?

Remember we are talking about the Jewish state of Israel. Not some democratic state that treats ALL races as equal, but a state that defines its very existences as being mono-racial.

[sabbat hunter]

11. learn your facts

all citizens of israel (jewish christian or muslim) have equal rights, vote for knesset, etc.

how is that racist?

[malaise]

9. Bingo

We opposed the apartheid state in much the same way we oppose the Zionist state. Opposing a state does not mean opposing a people. I wish people would post the stated goals of the Zionists from day one to today.
Add.

[0007]

8. Reconstituting a Jewish state in Palestine....

Modern Zionism is concerned with the development and support of the state of Israel.

[cali]

12. I oppose the zionism

of occupation and settlements. I support Israel within the 1967 borders.

[Lithos]

13. Locking per I/P guidelines

New threads must be based on a recently-published news item or op-ed piece. They may not be based on editorial cartoons or photographs. Citations and references should include a link to the original source. Exceptions will be allowed if, based on prior approval, the moderators feel a thread is appropriate.

Lithos
DU Moderator