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LiberalEconomist Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:31 AM
Original message
A Solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict
Suppose, just suppose, for argument sake, some country out there were to offer the Palestinian people instant citizen status if they (the Palestinians) were to migrate to that county, do you think that this could help to resolve the problem in the Middle East. I am not naive enough to believe that there are certain elements in the ME: Likud, Hamas, Hizbolla, the Saudis, the neo-cons. However, my issue is not with them. I am just sick of watching children die: both Arab and Jewish. I have had it. I want to do something, and do it now. Anyway, I am talking about all Palestinians: women, children, men, wealthy, poor, educated, uneducated etc.

Would you support this?
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. No, because it rewards terrorism
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BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. No, it rewards Israeli terrorism.
Not many Palestinians would take the terrible offer. Why should they give up their land? Why go to some strange land? They want a Palestinian state on land where their people have lived for eons.

Why not make that offer to Israeli's instead? Many of them arrived in Israel after 1948.

Israel should not get to keep land it stole and occupies illegally. That would be rewarding state terror.

Implement UN 242. That would be the correct solution and would end the bloodshed.
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LiberalEconomist Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. A terrible offer?
What if they were given land and developed infrastructure in their home? What if they were given immediate rights to vote as soon as they arrived? What if they were given a stipend to help them become established, such as the Vietnamese "boat people" when they arrived in the United States.

Second, is their land, the shit hole known as Israel/Palestine worth more than their children's future?
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. One of the biggest questions to ask is why . .
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 12:14 PM by msmcghee
. . in all the relocations in the world following WWII Arab countries did not offer to take in Palestinians who chose to leave. Remember they were given the choice and the new Israel government begged them to stay. (Eventually Jordan did take in many Palestinians as citizens.) Instead, they were told by those regimes that Israel would kill them if they stayed. When they arrived, intead of being absorbed into the state, they were placed in the refugee camps where their descendants remain to this day.

Also, remember that most Arab leaders, including the Mufti of Jerusalem, actively cooperated with the Axis during the war and that cooperation was responsible for allied deaths. (Remember Casablanca?)

However, with some creative cooperation with Israel and others after the war the Palestinian question might have been resolved to everyone's benefit. Instead, Arab politics seems to require that each leader be more outspoken and hateful toward the UN mandated nation of Israel. Each one had to make more outrageous threats to gain political creds at home - much like we see today with Almedinijad (who is Persian). Threats that then had to be honored or further loss of credibility would result.

The world has always been ready to provide tremendous financial assistance to any well-meaning Arab regime who would make this situation better. Unfortunately, Arab politics seems to require that the only politically acceptable path is calling for the destruction of the state of Israel. The Palestinian refugees are of great value to the Arab regimes who use them as pawns on the big ME chessboard of power politics.

Arab regimes that cooperate with Israel - like Egypt has - take great risks of internal overthrow.
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UndertheOcean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Israel Begged them to stay ? I suggest you read the story of Nazareth in
1948 as a primer...lookup Ben Dunkelman and Chaim Laskov...

Then read more books about that fateful year , maybe then you'll start questioning such apparent spoonfed Propaganda.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Yes, I said the Israeli government.
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 01:21 PM by msmcghee
There were also individuals and groups within Israel that wanted them expelled. The Israeli government - which was elected by the majority of Israelis - believed those groups would eventually lose credibilty as things settled down. They believed that the future of Israel depended on them not creating Palestinian refugees. Surrounding Arab states instead saw a chance to increase their power and influence by creating a permananent displaced population of Palestinian refugees.

There were attacks and massacres against the Israeli settlers and there were attacks and massacres of Palestinians by Israelis like Irgun. All were wrong. But it was a time of violence and upheaval after WWII in the ME generally and in Palestine especially.

One mistake we make is trying to impose our experiences on those people in those times - and make moral judgements. We have no real idea what it must have been like for the Jewish or the Palestinians in those days.

We have to look at today. Today, there is no reasonable excuse for one nation to attack another with rockets, kidnappings or suicide beombers. The world must say stop - now. Israel has no choice but to provide the response against Hezbollah that the world should be providing through the UN.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I know nothing about what happened in 1948 - whether Israel asked
them to stay or not. But let's say they did.

If so, why aren't the Arabs currently living in Israel - not the Palestinians in the occupied territories - granted full Israeli citizenship and rights that the Israeli's have?

It seems odd to ask them to stay, but as second class citizens, and not equal under the law.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Good question. As I understand it, the reason is that there . .
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 06:59 PM by msmcghee
. . are enough Arabs living in Israel now that if they were given citizenship and allowed to vote that they would simply take over the country and no doubt turn the non-Arab Israelis into second class citizens - and probably ruin the economy like the PLO did with the Palestinians under Arafat.

It seems to me that the Israeli Arabs are choosing to live in Israel as second class citizens rather than in Gaza or the West Bank under Palestinian rule since they are free to leave.

Any Israelis or Palestinians out there please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. That basically leaves them between a rock and a hard place.
They have two terrible choices and they have to decide which is least painful.

I realize Arabs taking over the country in terms of population (assuming they get support from other Arab nations) and money. But it's a huge leap to go from that possibility, to outright oppression? I can't think of a better word.

Also, there is no Palestinian rule in Gaza or the West Bank, as of yet.

It seems their policies are most similar to South Africa's Apartheid than any democracy I know of.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. they do have citizenship...
Edited on Fri Aug-04-06 04:02 AM by pelsar
sheesh...try at least to do some basic research in google..it takes no more than few seconds.

Arab israelis are full citiizens of israel....with all the rights, except for the demand to do national service (army or non military)

they are also, as are many minorities have discrimination against them throughout the society as well as a subculture that is very chavanistic..both are slowly changing as more and more israeli arabs get advanced degrees at the univeristies.

and many vote for the "jewish" and zionist parties and not the arab ones....
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. No. Because they would go there owning nothing.
and they would have to leave behind all the land that is what Israel really wants. Israel would benefit immensely, but the Palestinians would be destitute.

They are destitute now, but at least they have their land and what's left of their infrastructure.
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LiberalEconomist Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Suppose they were allowed to bring their belongings with them
and land and homes were granted to them--inheritable property that is--whould support this?
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. Offered, mostly,
by only by the infidel west.

The countries adjacent were scared: In Jordan, the Hashemite government set up by the British would be even more of a minority. In Lebanon, the Palestinians would mess up the sectarian compromise originally worked out by the French by adding many Sunnis into the mix. In Syria, the Alawite government set up by the French would be even more of a minority.

I have no clue what's happened in Egypt; I haven't heard of camps set up for them there, but I don't know if they're given citizenship like Palestinians were in Israel.

At this point, the land probably couldn't support the refugees. They'd still have a problem: Land left by 700-800k Palestinians now would have to support upwards of 3 million. True, they'd want the land bought by Jews, and transferred or nationalized by the Israeli government. But it's likely the land still wouldn't support them, and they'd all get little lots (also keep in mind much of the land that their parents or grandparents lived on they didn't actually own; it was the equivalent of the Jewish land that can't be sold, even to Jews).

Also, there's nothing like an external enemy to garner the support of your populations. The rulers know their culture.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
10. golda said:
...and I'm paraphrasing:


There will be peace in the Middle East when the Arabs begin loving their children more than they hate the Jews.
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laura888 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. She also said...
..."Palestinians do not exist."
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. She was referring to the fact,
Edited on Fri Aug-04-06 03:54 AM by PCIntern
not your opinion, but the fact, that the moniker "Palestinian" was simply a renaming of a fusion of other groups, not that the individuals did not exist. It was a political renaming in the way that the Pro-life movement named themselves. It is effective as a tool. If you're called a Palestinian, then you 'obviously' have the rights to Palestine.

Not obvious to me.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
13. If the Palestinians agreed to it, then who am I not to? BUT
I don't think they would agree to simply getting citizenship. Afterall, Palestine, the proposed state, means more than just citizenship.

Also, I think they should be offered land, homes and such, to make up with what they lost.

But more realistically, why can't they just have the West Bank - minus ALL settlements? That's the solution to this thing. Israel gets their land, and so does Palestine.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-04-06 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Because...
since we're quoting people...King Hussein, many years before the so-called peace process, when asked about the Israelis ceding land for peace, said that if Israel ceded all its land exdcept for 9 square inches, then that would be the 9 square inches for which the Muslim fundamentalists would have to fight and die. He knew his customers...that's why he threw Arafat out years before.

What does it take for people to realize that this culture has infinite patience? They will wait 50 100 300 years but they will, if they can, push Israel into the sea, as they say. What they mean is exterminate the Jews there. It's the long-term master plan. It's just going to take longer than they first thought.

But believe what you want.
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RSMS9999 Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. the thing is
most people dont fully understand how small Israel is compared to all of the other arab countries. For exaple, Saudi Arabia is about 100 times as large as Israel. In addition there are so many countries for arabs while Israel is the only country in teh world welcoming to jews. One of the reasons it is so hard to get israel too give up land is because it already has so little already.
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