Praying for Hummus, Getting Hamas

[pelsar]

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,428423,00.html

israel today...for those who are interested in the israeli left

In the 1990s, Israelis sincerely thought that peace was just around the corner. Now, the Middle East is torn apart by war. A former Israeli peace activist explains why he has laid down his olive branch and is prepared to grab for his rifle.
.....

But when I got deployed to Gaza and Nablus, fighting an unknown enemy, patrolling streets where, again, civilians drank their tea and played backgammon in cafés, my conviction was shaken. I became confused about who the good guys were and who were the bad. When I finished my mandatory service, I decided never again to be a soldier. When I was called up from the reserves and ordered back to Gaza, I refused and became an outspoken and active opponent of the Israeli occupation. I spent a total of 45 days in military prison for my refusal to serve.
.....

I too am turning back the clock. Eighteen years after finishing my military service -- almost two decades after swearing that I would never again wear a uniform -- I called the Israeli consulate in New York and gave them my phone number. If the army needed me, I told them, I would be the first on a plane back to Israel.

[liberalhistorian]

1. So, he can't wait to go kill and wound some more

Lebanese women and children, create even more refugees, and destroy even more of the country? Sickening.

[pelsar]

2. good insight...

yes the israeli leftest is really a someone who craves killing, making refugees and destroying countries..

i see you comprehension in reading is quite extraordinary.

[liberalhistorian]

3. My reading comprehension is just fine.

What I'm reading is that he seems so eager to fight, literally, for Israel, and that means doing the above. Same as fighting for Hezbollah means attacking innocent Israeli civilians.

[pelsar]

4. you read....

what you wanted to read....that an israeli in an IDF unform must mean creating refugees etc....to us it has an entirly different meaning, but then what do we know....its only our lives were risking.

[idontwantaname]

5. why is it...

it seems that its ok for the israelis to put down the "olive branch" (as if the israeli govt ever picked one up in the first place) and pick up the rifle... but it if the palestinians (who are the ones currently living under military occupation) this is not ok? why?

[pelsar]

6. its not a matter of it being "ok"....or not...

its also a matter of making of looking at the options and making decisions based on ones resources.

I would say that the palestenains have every right to fight the occupation....and i would also say that doing it via violence has been an utter failure....in fact i would say that using violence has made their situation more miserable as time goes on, for israel and for themselves.

I would also add that more than half of the israelis would be on their side, as was shown by the gaza pullout. The gaza withdrawl showed just how little power the settlers have in the political arena as well as within the military......the palestenains have far more allies within israel than they understand..but its conditional:

those same lefties which are now fighting in lebanon, dont need kassams and mortors landing in israel, dont need to hear on the radio or read in the papers about the evil jews, dont need to hear about irans wet dream to nuke the jews (yes its related) dont need hizballas attacks for the last 6 years. If the palestenains would tell them all to "STFU"...that would be quite the step, but since they arent, they dont have the israelis confidence in their "plans for a peaceful state."

The palestenains have options...the military one is not a good one...Every israeli was watching gaza, wondering what would the palestenians do with it, the right wished for the kassams, the left watched the greenhouses. Yes the palestenains have a right to fight the occupation, they're using the wrong tools.

_____

and the above article articulates very well how the israeli left can differentiate between the different types of attacks on israel

[idontwantaname]

7. none

i thought the article you posted was interesting. i also thought the writer (as well as many israeli arguments) neglect to really measure the effect of israeli policies carried out through the west bank during oslo. as we have gone through before, it was not only the israelis who wanted peace. palestinians did too (some of them anyway)... but with the checkpoints, settlement construction and land confiscation many would be palestinians would be hard pressed to say that this was their vision of peace.

this activity continued throughout the oslo years... and during that time the israelis had peace. there were numerous complaints about how israelis were conducting their govt operations in the occupied territories but nothing changed. peace didnt work for the palestinians... so of course like the author points out... the doves became hawks and the rest is history.

----------------------

one thing i found interesting:


The first generation of Israelis built the country, fought its war of independence and developed the infrastructure of a nation-state. The second generation fought glorious wars helping establish a Jewish post-Holocaust identity. We, who were born in the mid-1960s and the beginning of the 70s, called for the normalization of Israel. We wanted Israel to become a country like any other; we wanted borders, both geographical and ethical. The war we fought was the one against the convictions of our parents' generation.

As my generation matured -- and began taking its place in the Israeli economic, cultural and political establishment -- we triggered a great change in Israeli public opinion. Ours was the generation that pushed -- both with votes and with lifestyle -- for talks with the Palestinians and for peace agreements with Arafat and Jordan.

----------------------------

while the israelis have had different generation identities, i think the palestinians (for a number of reasons) are still living in the first generation-The first generation of Israelis built the country, fought its war of independence and developed the infrastructure of a nation-state.

[pelsar]

8. interesting point....

and i never gave it much thought..but it sounds right:


i think the palestinians (for a number of reasons) are still living in the first generation-The first generation of Israelis built the country, fought its war of independence and developed the infrastructure of a nation-state.

my opinion about oslo was that both sides cheated/lied and played politics.....part of that is inherent in the middle east: signed contracts are simply the start of a different kind of negotiation.

[pelsar]

9. to continue your comment...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/743180.html

It seems to happen almost every decade. A new Arab leader arises who promises to defeat Israel in war and save the Palestinians from their sufferings,

[idontwantaname]

10. im not sure

200 people isnt too much for ramallah. ive seen more people at a demo against the wall in a small village.

all the same i suppose we/i would have to address the palestimians directly whether or not they feel this story is accurate. i dont know that the majority feels this connect with lebanon or hezbollah... and im pretty sure they know this current conflict wont liberate them from anything.