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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:59 PM
Original message
The end of Zionism
Edited on Mon Sep-15-03 12:01 AM by IndianaGreen
Avraham Burg was speaker of Israel's Knesset in 1999-2003 and is a former chairman of the Jewish Agency for Israel. Reprinted with permission of The Forward, which translated and adapted this essay from an article that originally appeared in Yediot Aharonot

The end of Zionism

Israel must shed its illusions and choose between racist oppression and democracy

Avraham Burg
Monday September 15, 2003
The Guardian


The Zionist revolution has always rested on two pillars: a just path and an ethical leadership. Neither of these is operative any longer. The Israeli nation today rests on a scaffolding of corruption, and on foundations of oppression and injustice. As such, the end of the Zionist enterprise is already on our doorstep. There is a real chance that ours will be the last Zionist generation. There may yet be a Jewish state here, but it will be a different sort, strange and ugly.

There is time to change course, but not much. What is needed is a new vision of a just society and the political will to implement it. Diaspora Jews for whom Israel is a central pillar of their identity must pay heed and speak out.

The opposition does not exist, and the coalition, with Ariel Sharon at its head, claims the right to remain silent. In a nation of chatterboxes, everyone has suddenly fallen dumb, because there's nothing left to say. We live in a thunderously failed reality. Yes, we have revived the Hebrew language, created a marvellous theatre and a strong national currency. Our Jewish minds are as sharp as ever. We are traded on the Nasdaq. But is this why we created a state? The Jewish people did not survive for two millennia in order to pioneer new weaponry, computer security programs or anti-missile missiles. We were supposed to be a light unto the nations. In this we have failed.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,104207...
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mmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. the end of zionism
what a happy thought.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
2. Profoundly moving.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Yeah - bowel moving.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Did you even read the article?
Or is your response the result of conditioning?
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. No I didn't. The title was enough.
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. D'you come out in a sweat if you see "Israel" rather than "Eretz Yisrael"?
You're a star This image link contains an illegal code

;-)
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. No, I just get sick from moral equivalence.
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Well, apart from that phrase being empty of content, you're channeling JK
Jeanne Kirkpatrick that is.

Uh-oh, didn't know you were a fan of Reagan :D
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. That was a while back. But the phrase still fits.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Killing GIs bad. Killing Iraqi civilians good!
Killing 2,792 innocents in the WTC is terrorism. Killing 5-7 times that many innocents during our military adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq does not even merit a footnote.

We can find the same type of morality in both sides of the I/P conflict. The people that send suicide bombers to kill civilians at a mall in Haifa are cut from the same cloth as those that order an F-16 to drop a 1,000 pound bomb on an apartment full of civilians just to get one bad guy.

I won't go into the morality of Israel's bulldozing habits, which is a scandal in its own right.

This is a good example of what passes for moral equivalence nowadays.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. Morality is not about numbers
does not even merit a footnote

Of course, by going light on this point, we've let them off easily. Now go for the real bad guys!
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Jim, just channel NC next time...
Noam Chomsky that is...

the dude with the 'tude...
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
44. you are right, Jim
People trying to compare the actions of Israeli's to the actions of Palestinians are of course practicing this foul art. There is no equivalence in the struggle of the oppressed against the violence of the opressor.

Damn moral relativists.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Turning the truth upside down is not the answer.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. oh, it's the ISRAELI'S who are oppressed?
I love to see what passes for sanity around here.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #50
65. You want sanity, I'll GIVE you sanity.
:silly:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #65
69. there's your answer StandWatie
:eyes:
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Then you are cheating no one but yourself
The author is Avraham Burg, former Speaker of the Knesset, and former chairman of the Jewish Agency for Israel.

According to The Guardian, this commentary was:

Reprinted with permission of The Forward, which translated and adapted this essay from an article that originally appeared in Yediot Aharonot.


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LastDemInIdaho Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
3. The end of terrorism against Israel
There is no excuse for terrorism against Israel. Period.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Deleted message
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. It's the Occupation, stupid!
Or did you expect the Palestinians to dance in the streets and welcome the IDF as liberators, as many Americans believed the Iraqis would do when we invaded and occupied their country?

No one likes to be occupied by a foreign power!

As Avraham Burg said in his Guardian commentary:

Do you want the greater land of Israel? No problem. Abandon democracy. Let's institute an efficient system of racial separation here, with prison camps and detention villages.

<snip>

The prime minister should present the choices forthrightly: Jewish racism or democracy. Settlements, or hope for both peoples. False visions of barbed wire and suicide bombers, or a recognised international border between two states and a shared capital in Jerusalem.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,104207...
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Is it?
then why was there terrorism before the occupation?

stupid...
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fla nocount Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
56. Because throwing rocks was just getting the Pal.s shot n/t
*
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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
78. Yang.
then why was there terrorism before the occupation?


Because the Zionists had to create a state somehow!

;-)
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-03 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
91. n/t
Edited on Thu Sep-18-03 07:45 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
n/t
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
12. You shall not wrong or oppress a resident alien
Exodus 22.21
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Not even w?
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
19. Isn't this a dupe?
We've already had this very article under another title. Please. Burg wants to be PM some day. That's the bottom line.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #19
28. Didn't think you would have much comment
Edited on Mon Sep-15-03 09:26 AM by Resistance
on Israel's racist oppression and war crimes.

You never do.
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #19
34. it is a dupe...

but some folks can't seem to get enough of the end of zionism...

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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
20. For those of you who care
AM Yisroel Chai that means the people of Israel live! Like it or not and many of you don't but to damn bad.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Luckily many Israelis disagree with you...
The people of Israel are quite capable of living without their govt oppressing the Palestinians and stealing their land. If you think people can't live without that sort of violence, then you've got a lot to learn, Rini...

Violet...
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. All I said
was the people of Israel live.......I never mentioned violence or war, that was your call. I doubt there are (is?) a people more attuned to the horrors of war and who want peace more than Israelis, but not at the cost of national suicide. Sad but true statement. Furthermore, I see the demographics on the wall, so this saying means with or without a country, we will live. I also see a major war between cultures, and Israel's existance or disappearance are seconary to this war. Whatever Israel has done or not done, they are an outpost of western culture, that is the true reason for the hatred shown them. Think about it.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Give the Clash of Civilisations crap a rest for a few seconds...
Furthermore, I see the demographics on the wall, so this saying means with or without a country, we will live.

We?? Tell me. Have you decided yet whether yr from Israel or the US? Last time I checked neither the US nor Israel was in any danger of vanishing into oblivion...

Whatever Israel has done or not done, they are an outpost of western culture, that is the true reason for the hatred shown them.

Damn. There goes New Zealand's sole claim to fame out the window ;) Have you ever stopped to think why there's resentment and bitterness towards 'outposts of western culture', let alone towards the big, clunky flagship of western culture itself?

Violet....
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #24
70. "they are an outpost of western culture"
you got that right,just not in the way you intended.Think about it.
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
81. Sharon was born in Palestine of Russian parents.
"Western culture" and he are complete strangers.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #24
82. What' so good about Western culture?
It was WESTERNERS who started the crusades. It was a western nation that killed 13 million people and started a war that killed countless more. It is "western culture" forced on other peoples by way of imperialism that is responsible for a vast amoun of the chaos and strife in the world.

Why can't we tolerate all cultures, instead of saying that one is better than the other?
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. I don't know. I was just pointing out that Sharon is not "Western".
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. I was responding to rini's post...
not to yours. And I'm still waiting for an answer.
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. Darranar
Edited on Wed Sep-17-03 07:08 PM by quilp
I was interested in your thoughts on my post #74

Quilp
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
52. My dear friend
you do not have 1 not 1 clue about what I said or meant so I'll just leave it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #52
71. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
23. Zionism
The definition of Zionism means the belief in existence of Israel as a homeland for Jews. Anyone who wants the death of Zionism is arguing for the death of Israel.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. Didn't think you would have much comment
on Israel's racist oppression and war crimes.

You never do.
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. uh,...
is there an echo in here?...
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #29
49. He doesn't want to steal your shtick.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #49
67. you want shtick?
don't tempt me

:evilgrin:
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #29
55. Doesn't relate to the thread
The thread discusses the destruction of Israel not alleged crimes by Israel.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #55
66. LOL
I could post that in any thread and you would have an excuse
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #29
79. maybe because
not one word in your answer is true?
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. But why did "Zion" have to be in Palestine?
Edited on Mon Sep-15-03 10:26 AM by quilp
If, for instance Jews had been offered a "homeland" in Alaska, or some less populated part of Africa, would that not have satisified "Zionists". Or did it have to be Palestine?

It may be true that "anyone who wants the death of Zionism is arguing for the death of Israel". But that is not the same as saying people against the existence of Israel are against a homeland for Jews.

Most of us against the creation of Israel, are really against the destruction of Palestine and the Palestinian people. We would equally outraged if it was the Chinese doing this.
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. But you're not.
You see, the Chinese ARE doing something very similar to the Uighers (their Muslim population).

Do some research and bitch away.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #32
40. this is true
Edited on Mon Sep-15-03 11:21 AM by Aidoneus
thousands of Chinese settlers flood the East Turkestan province regularly and the state has executed many Uighurs and institutes arbitrary detention and torture as a routine process and more creative bureacratic means of suppression.. though the Chinese gov't has the good sense of mind to call its opponents "terrorists" who are "connected to al-Qai'dah", so none of the other opportunistic criminal states that run the world can complain without sounding like bigger hypocrites by their own rhetoric on the side.

The difference is that not much can exactly be done about this replay of our "wild west"/"manifest destiny" genocides.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. Uighurs are mostly Sufi mystic types..
I really can't imagine them seeing much worthwhile in Bin Ladin's "Emirate of Afghanistan" and I think "al-Qai'dah" types would be more likely to stone them as heretics than train them to fight. I did notice ETIM went on the official State Department books right before Bush's Iraq vote, I imagine that was their cheap ass quid pro quo for no veto.
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #32
45. speaking of bitch away...
wonder if an ivory tower school marm will show up...and admonish you for not sticking to I/P...

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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
75. I didn't know the Chinese were helping the Israelis in Palestine.
Is this in return for Israeli help in a future Chinese invasion of Taiwan?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
60. You obviously haven't read Avraham Burg's article either!
You obviously haven't read Avraham Burg's article either! If you had, you wouldn't be raising this strawman argument. Or perhaps you did read it, and were frightened by the challenge it poses to what passes for conventional thinking on the I/P conflict nowadays.

I am saddened that you prefer the comfort of orthodoxy to the liberating air of reason!
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
25. Same article posted Aug 29
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. be patient
the "kosher tax" will resurface momentarily
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
57. But The Guardian published it yesterday
for the benefit of the Western readers who do not have the ability to read Hebrew or Arabic, or subscribe to limited audience publications.
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
30. Is Jewish "liberalism" a myth?
Edited on Mon Sep-15-03 09:54 AM by quilp
Throughout modern European history Jews have been seen, and often condemned, as a politically and socially "liberal" people. Yet at the same time they managed to maintain their own culture against incredible odds. Perhaps this "liberalism" was really pragmatism. Jews were in more danger in totalitarian countries than they in more democratic ones. So they supported liberal institutions as a matter of survival.

But now Jews have their own country, and they along with the rest of the world, are discovering that a Jewish state can be as repressive and corrupt as anyone elses.
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. You are saying
Jews are only politically liberal in relation to their potential personal gain?

Is that truly what you are suggesting?
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. It is not as simple as that.
Edited on Mon Sep-15-03 11:01 AM by quilp
Try not to be so "defensive". If the Jews survived as a people against the odds they did, this can only be because they are fundamentally conservative (there is no perjorative implication here). There are a lot of things worth conserving. The word "conservative" is becoming as misused as the word "liberal". Ironically many fundamental conservative institutions today can only survive in the liberal societies they are seeking to destroy.

I am not talking about "personal gain", I'm talking about SURVIVAL. How would you vote if you and your family's very survival depended on a particular form of government?

How else do you account for the "liberalism" of Jews outside "Israel" even to the condemnation of the treatment of Palestinian Arabs, and the kind of government and policies "Israel" has?

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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. I'm not "defensive"
I'm incredulous.

You are starting with a false premise - that only a conservative ideology could save the Jews. That is bassakwards. And how is survival not personal gain? You make no sense at all.

Jewish liberlism is not a myth, it is an historic fact. It is liberalism and education that raised the Jews up from the ghettos. It is liberalism and education that will save them now.

Your "liberal" use of "quotation marks" might imply something else but I'm not inclined to waste time thinking about what.
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. You think "personal gain" and "survival" mean the same thing?
Edited on Mon Sep-15-03 11:36 AM by quilp
No wonder you have no clue what I am talking about.
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #30
37. what they're discovering is...
Jews in a Jewish state can be as valuable a target as Jews not in a Jewish state...
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. A "target" for whom?
Who is doing the shooting?
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jos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #30
39. A legitimate question
And a good one. There was a debate within Zionism as to whether Israel should be a "light unto the nations" or a nation like any other. I think that debate has been settled in favor of the latter view, and then some.
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. Jos: Where did that quote come from?
I have argued this only to find myself accused of "anti-semitism". I don't know where the quote you gave comes from, but it certainly reflects my own rather romantic view of Jews in the past. I'm interested in the origin of that quote because it is considered on this board to be an "anti-semitic" attitude. And I can't for the life of me understand why. Certainly no "Zionist" has ever mentionedd that "debate" to me.
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jos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. The prophet Isaiah
It's in the Bible, so those people who are accusing you of being anti-semitic don't know what they're talking about.
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
54. Thanks.
n/t
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #43
77. Your romantic view of Jews in the past?
Do you also have a romantic view of "the noble savage?" what a bunch of.....well,
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. No. Today I have a realistic view of the "Likudnik savage"
Edited on Tue Sep-16-03 08:28 PM by quilp
Well....
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
51. Except that it isn't.
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Then it isn't! Is it?.
n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #51
58. Try the Book of Isaiah
60:2 For, behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the peoples; but upon thee the Lord will arise, and His glory shall be seen upon thee.

60:3 And nations shall walk at thy light, and kings at the brightness of thy rising.

Isaiah
Chapter 60

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/jps/isa060.htm
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. What about the book of Isaiah?
Jewish liberalism is no myth.
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. D. see Jos Post #30.
Then how do you explain the current Israeli government? It is amazing how "conservative" many "liberals" become when they suddenly have property of their own. I think a some people are reacting to my post without reading what it actually says. It seems people only read the "headlines".
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. I don't see a difference...
between the government of Israel's actions towards the Palestinians and the US government's actions towards the Afgans or Iraqis. (I'm not alking about details here; simply about respect for humanitarian concerns.)

Unless you believe, like David Duke, that the government of the US is dominated by Jews, I don't see your point.
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. The Israeli Government is dominated by Jews isn't it?
Would you describe the current US government as "liberal"?
Would you describe the current Israeli government as "liberal"?

Actually I'm not really sure how your post relates to my post. I never mentioned the US. What does David Duke have to do with anything?

I was discussing reasons for West European Jewish support of "liberalism". Can a perfectly reasonable support of "liberalism" by a fundamentally conservative people give rise over the course of generations of a self deception that they were themselves a "liberal" people? After all, for a people to maintain their own cultural identity in foreign countries over the course of centuries requires a great deal of "conservation". Similar situations must have arisen for minority Catholics or Protestants in many European countries.

Or are European Jews different than non-European Jews? Their respective experiences over the past hundred years were very different. Are Sharon, the Likudniks, and the "fundamentalist settlers" of West European extraction?


BTW: I should have said Post Jos #39.

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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. I don't think Jews are any different from anyone else...
I think the liberalism that they are known for comes from the same source as the liberalism of the other minorities: The liberals in this country are more tolerant.

I wouldn't describe either government as liberal. But Israel's economic system is certainly more liberal than that of the US.

I think you are overgeneralizing a bit too much here. As you have pointed out, "conservatism" in politics and "conservatism" in non-political language have almost completely different meanings. The liberals of this country advocate many "conservative" ideas, like conserving the environement. I think liberals can be personally conservative; I am somewhat of an asthetic ivory-tower intellectual sort of person myself, but I post on DU, after all, and am far left of center in American politics.

One of the ways I think the Jews preserved their heritage was a little integration of cultures; in other words, a few cracks to prevent complete shattering. The difference of Ashkenazic and Sephardic customs are strong, and that is in part due to the cultures of the places in which they lived in.

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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #68
74. D. What you have said gives me a new slant.
Edited on Tue Sep-16-03 02:33 PM by quilp
I find the Arab people, culture, and religion attractive. But I can't say the same for their governments, secular or religious. They seem far too socially repressive.

In the USA we have a government increasingly belligerent abroad which goes hand in hand with regression at home.

But for the Israelis maybe there is a dichotomy. The behaviour of their government toward the Palestinians is in stark contrast to an enlightened and progressive domestic agenda. Of course most of us see one and don't see the other.

If this is true then the "ordinary" Israeli might like to say to the "ordinary" Plaestinian: You can see how Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia are ruled. We don't want to live that way. And I am not sure you would either. The deal is we could allow you political representation, but not political power. You can enjoy our social benefits, run your businesses, attend your Mosques etc. You can even join the police force and the army if you want. You can vote, but the national candidates will be all Jews. We will never allow you to be in a position to tell Jewish women they must wear veils, and cannot drive cars. It is a kind of "second class" citizenship, but it is still a lot better than most Arabs have in Arabic countries today. And, in a way, it protects you from your own lunatics as much as it protects us.

I am very skeptical that the Likudniks would ever allow this to be the case. And I'm sure the Palestinians would be even more so. But I can readily see that an "ordinary" Israeli may sincerely believe this.

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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #74
86. A few points...
However nice their government may be when it comes to economics, Israel's score for civil rights and civil liberties isn't very good.

In addition, the Palestinians would rightfully be extremely skeptical. The solution you gave (I know it isn't your view) is interesting, perhaps even plausible - but it seems very racist, and it will seem so to the palestinians and to others around the world. Some Palestinians - those currently living in Israel - would in fact lose rights with such a policy. They wouldn't stand for that.

Also, the lack of Arab democracies has not the slightest bit to do with unenlightenment of the religion of Islam and Arab culture. Africa is hardly in a better state, and the vast majority of Africans aren't Arabs.
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-03 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. There are similar government pressure on Isrealis as on Americans?
We don't get any news of Isreali oppostion to Sharon.

I find the "racism" you mention totally incomprehensible. I just never think in those terms, and can't understand anyone who does. As far as I know the Arabs and Jews are "Semetic". Yet they accuse each other of "racism". How can that be? Aren't they the same "race"? I am told I am "Caucasian". This is a mountain range in Russia. I was born in London, England. I don't see a connection. I think "race" is a bogus category without meaning. There are people, countries, and cultures. There are no "races".


"Magistrate" seems to think I question the intelligence of Arabs. These are the people that invented the numerical system we use today!

Actually I think I'm in the mainstream of what people believe about the situation in the Arab world. They are in a double bind. They have had despots and rulers forced on them by the West. In reaction they have inflicted upon themselves these lunatic clerics. The idea that an unelected American president, dependent on the Christian Right, is going to bring democracy to Iraq would be funny if people weren't actally dying for this cynical lie.

If anything I am "class conscious". I believe the best thing any country can evolve is a large and properous working class of the kind we had in the "sixties". This cannot happen under a dictatorship or theocracy. And when this class declines, or is threatened, the country ends up with one or the other. Which is where I sometimes think we are headed. I'm with the Frenchman who said. "I can't wait till the last aristocrat is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-03 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. You can call it what you want...
Edited on Thu Sep-18-03 04:28 PM by Darranar
but in my post I used racism to mean prejudice towards or against a certain ethnicity, race, or religious group.

I agree with you, though, about everything else.

On edit: Until this hurricane calms down, my computer's going to be off.
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-03 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. D. Isn't that a rather dangerous thing to do?
The word "racism" seems to stir up all kinds of poisons that another word like "prejudice" might not. I don't know why, but it sure seems to.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-03 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #74
90. Institutionalized racism is wrong no matter what the level of oppression.
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. I have to confess that expresses my own erstwhile view.
But then again, I used to believe I live in a democracy.
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