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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:13 PM
Original message
Palestinian child shot dead near Ramallah
http://www.abc.net.au/news/justin/weekly/newsnat-15sep2...

Israeli soldiers have killed a Palestinian child near the West Bank city of Ramallah.

There were also casualties reported in Gaza after hundreds of Palestinians marched in support of Yasser Arafat.

The 12-year-old child was shot after soldiers fired at dozens of Palestinians who cut open a fence to climb into Atarot airport, which has not been used since the start of the intifada, or uprising, three years ago.

In Gaza, seven students aged between nine and 16 were injured by gunfire, one of them seriously, when hundreds of Palestinians marched towards the Kfar Darom settlement and began throwing stones at the troops.

more

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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. Oh, so instead of Arafat
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 05:24 PM by Resistance
They decide to shoot kids.

I am just glad to know that our brave Democrats will take a stand for human rights, by proclaiming "I support Israel"
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm more and more inclined to support a third party
But first, we have to get Bush out of the White House.
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loudnclear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Hey, we supported Saddam at one time, didn't we.
We seem to love to support (with American tax dollars to boot) all kinds of state-sponsored terrorism. We just don't like it when it is against us.
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whirlygigspin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. oh sure,
next you'll want dems to be even handed!

-sarcasm off-
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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
47. Well Dean called for even handedness...look what that got him!
:shrug:
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LastDemInIdaho Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. What kind of idiot would bring a child to a fence-cutting mission?
The childs parents should be arrested for child endangerment. Maybe they don't have laws against endangering children?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dudeness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. you are a clown..
n/t
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Boy....am I glad that wasnt a personal attack.
.
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dudeness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. read post #7
which was more offensive to you?
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. What kind of idiot would shoot at a bunch of people trying to cut a fence?
especially with a boy with them.
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. idiots
who have been shot and killed by terrorist cutting a fence, coming through and murdering.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Example?
n/t
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
63. Several
Terrorist kills 5 including mother, two young sons:

Fatah's Aksa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility at the kibbutz, just over the Green Line from Jenin and renowned for peaceful coexistence with its Arab neighbors, in a statement broadcast on Hizbullah's Manar television. The attack occurred as Hamas and Fatah officials met in Cairo for talks on unity and a cessation of suicide bombings inside Israel.

"An attack of this nature, in this place, with ...

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/jpost/index.html?ts=1063645...

Woman slain in Jordan Valley terror attack. ; Would-be suicide bomber killed at Gaza border fence

The Gaza Strip incident occurred around 11 a.m., when Engineer Corps troops spotted the heavily armed gunman, a member of Hamas, cutting through the security fence. They opened fire, detonating the explosive belt he had strapped to his body.

Hamas's founder, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, met with Latin Patriarch Michel Sabbah in Gaza City yesterday - the first time the two have held talks - and ...
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/jpost/index.html?ts=1063645...

There is also the attack on a settlement a year and a half ago, where the terrorists cut through a fence on Shabat morning, murdering a child and wounding a second child and mother.

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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
48. Terrorists cutting fences?
So now the already ambiguous word "terrorist" can include people that cut fences. Now I've heard it all (I think)...'till next week in bizzaro world.....
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chapter32 Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Glad you are the last Democrat in Idaho
The point here is the indiscriminate shooting of civilians. Not enforcing your child endangerment law!
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LastDemInIdaho Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. child endangerment is a serious offence
You don't take children to a protest where security is to be violated.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. let's hear you say it, LastDem
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 07:14 PM by Resistance
repeat after me:

"You don't shoot children, even if they are only Palestinian"

Go ahead, give it a shot. We know you can do it. (well we hope so anyway)
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LastDemInIdaho Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Hamas using children as shields should be condemed by all
Pity there are so many here that excuse such acts. Acts of terrorism and infiltration are no place for Palestinian children.

Teach your children well.
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. It is extremely sad
that they use their children as shields. In the Arab countires, there are no child protection laws. Children are the property of the father who can do with them as they will.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. rini you have lost all credibility
by saying "Palestinian children are their parents offerings to Moloch. "
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
56. to whom then
Arafat? Children are children damn it! Adults are free to kill each other over race or land or whatever, but leave the kids out of it!
If you can't handle that....to damn bad.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. No child protection laws in arab countries? Huh?
A quick google search can prove you wrong on this, but you're not worth the bother.
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #34
57. please do
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #57
62. Typed in..
..'Arab Laws for the Protection of Children' and got 5367 hits. None of them linked to Debka though, so I doubt you'll consider them valid sources.
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chapter32 Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Mr. Idaho,
Stop supporting shooting the children!
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LastDemInIdaho Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Stop supporting shooting the children!
I don't support it but I can see how hamas bringing children to their missions can play into the hands of people that refuse to see the bigger picture.

Why don't you stop supporting hamas and other terrorists in Gaza?
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Did you read Resistance's post?
SAY IT!
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chapter32 Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. I'm NOT a supporter of "Hamas and other terrorists in Gaza"
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 08:05 PM by chapter32
Please don't put words in my mouth. Please.

Your acquisitions and debating tactics are sickening.

I'm against the shooting of children of any nationality and origin.
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LastDemInIdaho Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Fine and dandy
Then stop implying I support shooting children. Deal?

Hamas and other imbedded terror groups use children to shield their terror. That is wrong in so many ways that I should notr have to condemn it every 10 minutes.

How do you feel about hamas blowing up busses with children on board?
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chapter32 Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. As I said, Mr. Idaho,
Im against shooting any civilian, specifically children. There is no excuse for it. As there is no excuse for blowing up busses with children on board. Period.

Deal?
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. say it, LastDem
"There is no excuse for shooting Palestinian children"
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LastDemInIdaho Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. There is no excuse for targeting Palestinian children
Why hamas recruits children to hide their terrorism is beyond me.

Thank goodness Israel does not target children and uses much restraint when hamas is hiding behind said children. Hamas tries way too hard to insure collateral damage when they are on foot to terrorize the innocents of Israel.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. How was this child shot then?
I mean, all they were doing was cutting through a fence. That was no real security hazard to anyone. The soldiers here used so much restraint that they only immediately fired and ended up killing the boy.
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Yeah.....
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 08:20 PM by drdon326

they should have waited till they were shot with at
least 3 or 4 bullets before protecting themselves.

Using children is a time honored palestinian terrorist tactic.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030913/1...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030912/1...

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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. There is nothing to indicate that these Palestinians were armed...
sorry, your post is ridiculous.
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. And the IDF has to guess......
this as they are cutting the fence.

And if they guess wrong.....guess what.....theyre dead like
other IDF.

It must be easy to moralize from the comfort of your home.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Sorry...
but I don't see your argument. Unless, that is, you support the gunning down of protesters practicing civil disobediance just in case they have guns.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #43
66. "It must be easy to moralize from the comfort of your home."
You tell us Don.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. you still didn't say it.
I didn't think you could.
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LastDemInIdaho Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. And you can't condemn using kids as shields for hama terror
I don't condone killing any children and hamas leaves Israel no choice in cases of hamas recruting kids to blow up busses and pizza joints where the children of Israel are plentiful.

Hamas and the PA started the murder of innocent children. Too bad you either refuse to accept that fact or you choose to write it off as justified.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. oh, now the justifications come out
"leaves Israel no choice"

It's the same excuse Hamas gives when committing their attacks: "we have no choice but to punish Israel"

Your excuses are no different from the terrorists which you claim to condemn.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Resistance...
you're entirely correct. I have made a similar observation.

The radically pro-Israel folks here describe collective punishments like the wall and the house demolitions as methods that must be used to secure israel. Hamas says that the suicide bombings are needed to secure the rights of the Palestinian people. There's not much of a difference here.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. I'm in shock right now from all the excuses
after a 12 year old kid has been killed by the Israeli army.

I thought this was a progressive forum.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. I did, too...
I deal with my outrage by remembering that I was in denial once about this, too. Intelligent people who knew what they were talking about broke it. Perhaps the same will eventually happen to some posters here, too.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. thanks for the tip
I will try to keep it in mind.
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LastDemInIdaho Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #35
45. You didn't think
Thanks for admitting the inabiliy to understand how hamas using children to cover their six is their MO.

I refuse to accept the use of children in war.

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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #32
50. It's the usual Propaganda tripe...
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 08:46 PM by Equinox
Thank goodness Israel does not target children and uses much restraint when hamas is hiding behind said children. Hamas tries way too hard to insure collateral damage when they are on foot to terrorize the innocents of Israel.

Palestinians die. It's because Hamas hides amongst them. LMAO...it's such a silly argument yet so many believe it!!!

Tell me, do you have evidence that Hamas was present?
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. Someone needs to teach the Israeli children....
..to respect human life so that don't grow up, join the IDF, and shoot children for the mere act of cutting fences.
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #29
59. and the Palestinians need to stop using
textbooks that teach hate in the schools, or hold rallies that teach it, or name parks and summer camps for homocide bombers, or does that not count? I defy you to show one textbook in Israel that teaches hate.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I know...
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 07:15 PM by Darranar
and, of course, it isn't child endangerment to shoot at children. Well, they were only Palestinian...

:puke: :puke: :puke:
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
64. changing the subject does not qualify as an answer
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Changing the subject?
I agree with the poster that I replied to. The Palestinians in this situation were certainly uncaring by bringing this child with them. But the IDF soldiers weren't any better.
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chapter32 Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. "child endangerment is a serious offence"...
Then don't shoot them!
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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
52. Chapter32...LOL...
If the "other" side could just listen to their own arguments...I'd think they'd die laughing. No pun was really intended...and I didn't have a child present making this pun so I'm not a terrorist hiding amongst childrenn and if I was, I didn't violate any child endangerment laws..and so on and so forth.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
38. The children take themselves .
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 08:20 PM by Scurrilous
You act as if Palestinians drag their poor children to demonstrations then hide behind them as they commit nefarious deeds. Nothing could be further from the truth. These kids show up at demonstrations on their own, against their parents wishes and often without their parents knowledge. Noone needs to take them anywhere. They go on their own. They live for the struggle. No power on earth can keep them from the fray.
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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
49. LOL...
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. Maybe....
But does that let Israel off of the hook?
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. Mission?
Did you read the story? Where did it imply this was some sort of 'mission?' The Palestinians were cutting a fence to an airport. Since when is trespassing classified as a 'mission?' Maybe you thought if you dressed this tragic event up in quasi-military jargon you could pass it off as one more unfortunate killing in Israels war on terror. Nice try.
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dudeness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
6. where are the cheer squads ??
only half a dozen posts on this news..goodness..
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
15. That was quick....
It's amazing how fast these I/P Stories are removed from LBN and buried here :eyes:
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. They should go right in the shitter.
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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #30
54. Excellent analysis JimSagle....
So what do you think about dead Palestinian children?
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. Didn't he say they should go into the shitter??
:shrug:
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LastDemInIdaho Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. No he didn't
The litery attempts to paint Israel as murderers should be crappped is what he said. I agree.
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
58. There isn't enough info in this article to come to any hard conclusions
Some problems:

* The source of this appears to be AFP. The Australian website doesn't list where they got their information from.

* In the original AFP release, Israeli "security sources" said that they followed proper procedures before using lethal force. Apparently they gave warnings and shot into the air first. That story is also carried on the (admittedly pro-lunatic), Israel National News service.

* AFP also says that before the Palestinians attempted to force their way through the fence, "clashes" took place near the Qalandiya checkpoint. Were the Palestinians running away from the IDF?

* Atarot is now an IDF base, not a civilian airport.

* There have been many unarmed attempts to "infiltrate" Atarot - lethal force has been used many times. In each case it wasn't clear why such Palestinians would attempt to enter an IDF base.

* Armed Palestinians have also attempted to infiltrate Atarot. No doubt in order to attack the occupation soldiers stationed there.

* The airport takes up a huge swathe of territory, because it is attached to the illegal settlement of Atarot - both have expanded municipal boundaries. Palestinians attempt to travel between Qalandiya and Ramallah all the time, but both the airport and the settlement are smack in the middle, which cause significant disruption.

Considering the above, it cannot be ruled out that:

1. The section of the fence the Palestinians were attempting to cut was simply designed to restrict travel between the two areas of Ramallah and Qalandiya, not protect the airport or the settlement. Therefore to use lethal force to protect it would violate the Geneva Conventions. The Palestinians may only have been trying to travel between those two areas.

2. The Palestinians may have been running away from a nearby "clash".

3. The Palestinians could have been attempting to infilitrate the IDF airbase for some (unknown) reason.

In each case, the IDF soldiers may have used appropriate warnings before opening fire. They would have been justified if case (3) is true, perhaps justified if case (2) is true, and not justified if case (1) is true.

More information is required before coming to any hard conclusions. I suspect it will not be forthcoming - this is only a 12 year old Palestinian from a refugee camp. Hence, irrelevent.
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