Israeli jets roar over Lebanon

[DuctapeFatwa]

Israeli war planes roared into southern and northern parts of Lebanon on Sunday breaking the sound barrier, security sources said.
Witnesses said the jets swooped in pairs over Tyre in south Lebanon and flew as far north as the city Tripoli.
There was no immediate response from Hizbollah which usually fires its anti-aircraft gunners at the Israeli jets.
Earlier this month Israeli warplanes struck suspected Hizbollah anti-aircraft artillery on the edge of a southern Lebanese village, in retaliation to Hizbollah rounds at Israeli jets that flew into Lebanese skies.

http://famulus.msnbc.com/FamulusIntl/reuters09-14-04270...

[Paschall]

1. Are we at war with Syria yet?

[Muddleoftheroad]

2. No, but Israel is

And has been for 55 years, so is not surprising.

[bpilgrim]

5. israel appears to be at war with a lot of her neighbors

guess the whole occupation thing ain't goin over well in that region

peace

[Muddleoftheroad]

8. No occupation of Israel

Israelis live there. It's their neighbors who can't learn to deal with that.

[Darranar]

10. The occupation...

not of israel, but the West Bank and Gaza. That is what he/she is talking about I believe.

[Muddleoftheroad]

12. Don't bet on it

nt

[bpilgrim]

14. you lost

thats EXACTLY what I was talking about... just to clear the muddle

peace

[Muddleoftheroad]

16. The terrorist definition

Given that Israel has to contend, every day, with the terrorist definition that ALL Israel is occupied, there are no guarantees.

[newyorican]

19. Bpilgrim is not a terrorist...

and your post is one of the most pathetic things I've read from you, just one though.

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. No Bpilgrim is no terrorist

But Israel has to deal with the real thing and THEIR definition which is what I was referring to.

[newyorican]

36. back-peddling builds the quads

but you knew that...

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. When I backpeddle

I'll let you know.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

59. muddle can't be backpeddling...

since he never peddled that bp was a terrorist to start with...

you invented that to attack him...

[quilp]

70. That is not a "terrorist" definition. It is a Palestinian definition.

But the idea that these people are threat to get their country back is, unfortunately, ludicrous. Of course all who oppose humanitarians like Sharon and the Likudniks are by "definition"; "terrorists". Apparently murdering people while wearing a uniform and with advanced technology is now always "legitimate". Let me assure you that the continued brutalizing of the Palestinian people is fully "guaranteed". By the Bush and the USA.

[Jackie97]

28. Most of the neighbors could live with Israel....

If the Israeli government wasn't invading land like crazy for their own religious puposes and to be a good friend to the U.S.

Solution: Israel, get out of Lebanon. Get out of Syria. Get out of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Just get out!

[Muddleoftheroad]

32. Lebanon

Actually, Israel is out of Lebanon, Syria, however is not.

A jet flyover is not an invasion. Syria invaded and conquered.

[newyorican]

37. A jet fly-over is an invasion of airspace....

recognized around the world, except in the Israeli amen corner.

Your edumacation has become suspect amongst other things...

[Muddleoftheroad]

42. Tolerating terrorists

Is an act of war. Big deal.

[StandWatie]

60. really?

What can you do if that's so? Say Israel has a revolving door policy on their terrorists (easily demonstrable), what does that allow Palestinians to do? Say Israel is still arming the SLA (harder to prove but very likely) what does that allow Lebanon to do?

[Muddleoftheroad]

63. All nations can do what they have always done

And go to war. You don't really need a justification for it, but it helps.

Israel and many of her neighbors have been at war for 55 years.

[tinnypriv]

62. Is Kissinger still within your borders?

Time to roll out the Cruise Missiles!

I hear we have a Trident sub in the Pacific...

[newyorican]

64. Oh I can't wait for this answer...

probably not forthcoming anyway.

[rini]

93. please try

to post an intellegent non insulting answer. Truth Syria invaded and still occupies Lebanon. Accept it and go on from there.

[tinnypriv]

97. Yeah, and Israel tacitly supported that invasion

Which you probably didn't know.

Try googling it.

[Jackie97]

50. And Lebanon has a right to fight Syria back.

[loudnclear]

3. Isreal is not going to rest until the US attacks another Arab country...

Anybody else notice that we are the United States of Israel?

[Muddleoftheroad]

4. LOL

Yes, and those pesky Jews control the IMF, World Bank and the New York Stock Exchange as well.

[Scurrilous]

7. Behold..

.....the Straw Man!



Description of Straw Man:
The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. Nothing straw about it

People who think the U.S. is run by Jewish interests exhibit the same rhetoric of those who think Jews control everything.

[Darranar]

11. When did he mention the word "Jews" in his post?

It appears that you were the one who brought that up, not him.

That is indeed a straw man.

[Muddleoftheroad]

13. Calling us the United States of Israel

is clear enough.

[bpilgrim]

15. there is no denying the very powerful influance israeli policy has

with this admin

peace

[Muddleoftheroad]

17. Powerful influence

Lots of groups have a powerful influence on the U.S. and its policies. But funny how Israel's opponents are the only ones to really claim that Israel controls things.

[bpilgrim]

18. like AIPAC and the OIL CARTELS are the problem

addressing it doesn't make us 'Israel's opponents' but concerned americans.

peace

[Muddleoftheroad]

33. What about other groups?

Lots of groups have influence in the U.S., but somehow Israeli PACs are the only ones that get focus.

[chapter32]

38. Because this is called I/P Forum!

You want to talk about Marshal Islands PAC here? Give me a break!

[Muddleoftheroad]

45. What garbage

Our government is based entirely on the influence of a ton of groups. Pro-Israel PACs are but one of those. You overplay their import.

[chapter32]

48. Garbage. n/t

[Darranar]

49. Nice, short, and to the point.

[Darranar]

39. Because they've been rather successful...

Name another nation that recieves as much US aid.

[Muddleoftheroad]

44. Foreign aid

America gives hardly any. But we give a bunch to various Arab nations. Then there is also military aid. If you count that, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait sure got a ton.

[Darranar]

46. That doesn't change the facts...

And I hate Saudi Arabia's government more than I hate Israel's.

[Muddleoftheroad]

52. Some agreement

I think we both hate Saudi Arabia's government equally.

[bpilgrim]

6. the 2 most powerful lobby interest have TEAMED UP AIPAC and OIL

and that has lead to devestating consequences for america and many in the ME.

I wish they would go back to fighting one another.

peace

[Aidoneus]

20. how strange

Israel continues these blatent provocations and aggressive behavior against Lebanon, all people can talk about is AIPAC or any other diversion like always.

[bpilgrim]

21. the tolerance by our current admin to israel

not at all strange when you look at the strong ties to AIPAC and the ISRAELI far right and folks in our current admin, no?

peace

[Aidoneus]

22. I guess..

but look at the effect here, there's a total diversion away from the act of aggression itself onto stupidities like Jews controlling the IMF, "terrorist definition" of "occupation", etc..

[bpilgrim]

25. true

but consider the source



peace

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Act of aggression

Well, since Syria/Lebanon tolerates a military in its midst that continues to attack Israel, the jet flyover is minor.

I made my comments about the rest after the moronic statement about a "United States of Israel."

[molly]

23. How very-very-very strange

most Jews I know are DEMS!

[bpilgrim]

26. indeed

but i am talking about the far right neo-cons and they have the helm and the con...

peace

[Aidoneus]

24. Hizbollah fires at Israeli jets over Lebanon

Hizbollah fires at Israeli jets over Lebanon

BEIRUT, Sept 14 (Reuters) - Lebanon's Hizbollah guerrilla group said it fired anti- aircraft rounds on Sunday at Israeli war planes which roared into southern and northern parts of Lebanon.

"The air defence unit of the Islamic Resistance challenged ...Israeli enemy war planes that violated Lebanese sovereignty over the middle sector of south Lebanon...and also over Bint Jbeil," a statement from the Shi'ite Muslim group said.

No planes were reported hit.

Residents said the jets swooped in pairs and broke the sound barrier over Tyre in south Lebanon and flew as far north as the city of Tripoli.

--snip--

http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=20030...

[Jackie97]

27. Notice something here.....

Lebanon kills people from Israel when Israel enters *Lebanon's* skies. Israel kills people from Lebanon when they enter *Lebanon's* skies.

Israel, stay the heck out of other people's territory, and maybe you won't be loosing citizens. Just stay the heck out. Gosh, why is that so hard to ask?

[Gimel]

29. Simple as you've said

Life is simple as 1, 2, 3. Don't I know it /sarcasm.

Added interpretation:

1. Shelling continues killing Israeli citizens (1978-1981)

2. Israel attacks terrorist bases then occupies Lebanon

3. Israel withdraws to security zone. (1985) Constant attacks by terror groups

4. Israel withdraws from Lebanon completely (2001 - Security Council Certifies Israel Withdrawal from Lebanon)
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/lebwith.html

5. Across-boarder attacks begin again:

Security Update
The Security Council extended the U.N. peacekeeping mission in southern Lebanon for six months, a foreign news agency reported on Friday.

Israel's U.N. Ambassador Dan Gillerman said his government was very concerned that the council welcomed the steps taken by Lebanon in the south because Hezbollah still operates there and has threatened to kidnap more Israelis and carry out terror attacks against American targets.

http://www.lebanonlinks.com /

Easy as 1, 2, 3 and then go back to go. 1, 2, 3 again and again.
History of War in Lebanon
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/Lebanon_War.ht...

[Scurrilous]

30. Hezbollah operates in South Lebanon......

....so Israeli jets fly over Tripoli (which is northern Lebanon). Deliberate provocation masquerading as defense of Israel.

[Muddleoftheroad]

35. The government of Lebanon/Syria

Tolerates terrorism in south Lebanon, so THEY invite military reprisal.

[Scurrilous]

40. The government of Israel.

Invades Lebanese airspace, so THEY invite military reprisal (which Israel calls terrorism).
And around and around we go......

[Muddleoftheroad]

43. Hezbollah

Has been attacking Israel despite Israeli withdrawl from Lebanon. And so it goes.

[Scurrilous]

47. Maybe Israel should try..

...withdrawing from Lebanese airspace also.

[Gimel]

54. Contiguous

As the airspace is contiguous, that has the feel of illusion and hypocrisy. What space does laebanon claim at 10,000 feet? Hizbullah respects no one. Even claims to want to dominate the world.

[Jackie97]

51. Okay....

But with all of that, there still lies the fact that nobody from Lebanon had killed an Isreali since the withdrawal of their land. This one person was the first one in a long time, and that was only because Israeli planes were in their skies. After over a twenty year occupation, Lebanon don't want to see Israel in their skies. It still sounds to me that Israel looses a lot less people when they stay out of other territory.

I also have to add in addition to all that reading something that wasn't mentioned. There was the Sabra and Shatilla massacres, that resulted in the deaths of thousands of Lebanese people. Ariel Sharon and the Isreali government are currently the ones considered to be responsible for these massacres. In my opinion, that doesn't compare to a busload of Israelis or loosing some soldiers. After that, Lebanon doesn't want Israel to be there.

[Muddleoftheroad]

53. Ongoing attacks

The government of Lebanon/Syria allows Hezbollah to operate and continue ongoing attacks against Israel. As such, it promotes war and invites retaliation by Israel.

[Jackie97]

67. Is there proof of that?

[Muddleoftheroad]

82. Rockets

Well, the rockets that get launched from Lebanon into Israel so often that they rarely make news.

[Aidoneus]

83. anti-aircraft, you mean?

fired at the jets threatening Lebanon on a regular basis.. Lebanese defending themselves against threats is your big conspiracy? At least bring up Shebaa..that's at least something to debate over.

[Muddleoftheroad]

86. Sure, anti-aircraft, right, lol

Yeah, antiaircraft aimed at people who live in the area.

[StandWatie]

88. he is right..

you can laugh all you want but that's all that's been fired.

[Muddleoftheroad]

89. But not as antiaircraft

The German 88s made nice anti-tank weapons too. It's not what the weapon is, it's how it is used.

[StandWatie]

90. so why does it only go off when Israeli planes fly over?

wouldn't the logical thing to do would be to stop the illegal flyovers if they are that worried about flak?

[Aidoneus]

91. riiight..

fired at aircraft, but it's for some mystical reason NOT anti-aircraft. Curse Hizbullah for not being able to circumvent the laws of physics!

[StandWatie]

92. it's Israeli conjecture

(or open flat out lie) that they are firing the anti-air too low and *hoping* that flak will hit the houses. If they are Israel has some huge balls for even trying to bitch about "collateral damage".

[Scurrilous]

94. LOL

It goes up as anti-aircraft fire, but when it comes down it's terrorism!

[Gimel]

55. Injuries only

Yes, we put up with rockets falling in the cities, people sent to the hospital. That's fine. Just a normal day-to-day life. Jackie, where do you live? Do you have rockets falling in your house or around it? Are you afraid to let your children go outside to play?

[newyorican]

56. What kind of idiot would bring a child to a war zone?

The childs parents should be arrested for child endangerment. Maybe they don't have laws against endangering children?

Attribution

[Muddleoftheroad]

57. All of Israel is a war zone

Your understanding would be appreciated.

[newyorican]

58. Live by the sword...

die by the sword.

I, for one, would have as priority one, the saftey of my children. I wouldn't take them with me on some colonial expedition mired in conflict.

It's obvious that too many are more in love with a patch of sacred sand than their own children. Must be something in the water...

[Gimel]

61. You have a choice, perhaps

Israelis don't. If Israel pulls back from the border area, what will the terrorists do? I'm sure that isn't too hard for anyone to figure out.

[newyorican]

65. everyone taking part in colonial activities

makes that choice for themselves and their children.

Who is forcing settlers to colonize the WB? Arafat?

If Israel pulls back from the border area...

If "Israel" (I assume you mean the IDF and/or settlers) were only in the "border area" this would be a different discussion.

I'm sure that isn't too hard for anyone to figure out.

Au contraire, it's much too difficult for *anyone* with a leadership position to "figure out". That's obvious to all but the brain-dead.

[Gimel]

66. Lebanese border

We were discussing the northern border here, not the WB. This border has been varified by the UN. The "settlers" are Israelis in Israel. I guess you haven't figured it out yet.

[newyorican]

71. Ah yes...

let's not discuss anything Gimel doesn't want to...what a pantload.

[Gimel]

79. Can discuss anything you want to

I'm not the mod squad. However, when discussing Lebanon, the WB situation does not apply. Lebanon has a border with Israel, the WB is not defined with a border.

Edit: to add a missing letter

[Jackie97]

69. Let's see.

Israel made peace with both Eygpt and Lebanon. Up until recently, no Lebanese people have killed an Isareli, and this wasn't a terrorist attack now. I haven't read up on any Eygptians killing Israelis in terrorist attacks since peace was made.

Maybe the Palestinians would leave the Israelis alone. I am certain that if the Palestinians got their freedom, then support for groups that want to "destroy Israel" would be cut by almost ninety percent. OTOH, I don't see the Palestinians stopping the violence before they are free. This is a liberation movement. They want their freedom, and they're using violence to persuade the Isareli government to give it to them.

[Muddleoftheroad]

72. Except the Palestinian terror groups want it all

All of Israel, not just the disputed territories.

[Gimel]

73. Unilateral peace

No one said that there was a peace agreement with Lebanon. There was a unilateral withdrawal from the security zone under Barak. since then, across-border attacks have continued, in fact from the very first day, from the Lebanon side.

Egyptians have attacked Israelis across border attacks as well, although a few years ago. Because you haven't heard of it isn't a very convincing argument.

As for the Palestinians, they have other demands. Israel would like to settle with them, but they are unreasonable. They want all the terrorists released, for instance, they want all of Jerusalem, and to work in Israel also. They want right of return. Really, I think you should know the problems with that by now. In effect, they want to dominate Israeli society.

[newyorican]

74. Alice-in-wonderlogic meets Bizarro world

[Gimel]

76. Your own mirror

suit yourself, New Yorkers have a significantly lower life expectancy than other Americans.

[newyorican]

77. Mirrors? At least I can look in one...

Your statement is not only false, it is rather mean-spirited bile against a city of 11 million just so you can get to me. I guess 10,999,999 people are justifiable collateral damage, eh.

On Edit: Forgot the link

Columbus Listed Lowest Life Expectancy in Nation

[Gimel]

78. US is only 6th

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/07/10/un.list/inde...

Don't play if you can't pay.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/04/07/rec.ny.stress/index.ht...

As for Columbus, Georgia, sounds like another disaster area. I'm sure the US has many.

[newyorican]

80. I said your statement is false...

and provided a link to prove it false.

The only question left is whether you are driven by ignorance or malice. Your demeanor indicates the latter.

A reminder of your false statement:
New Yorkers have a significantly lower life expectancy than other Americans. - Gimel

Care to respond or will you continue to plead "no contest". If I got caught making shit up, I would consider apologizing. I will also recommend a clean mirror and a handbook on self-examination for you to go to work on your, all too obvious, character flaws.

[Gimel]

84. New arrivals

So New York was surpassed without my knowledge. It was an error. Call it ignorance if you like, but not malice.

Really? what is your favorite "self-examination handbook"?

[newyorican]

95. still making shit up

New York was never "surpassed" as it has never had the lowest life expectancy in the US. I would advise you to quit while you're ahead, but you've been behind the 8-Ball from the first word. Such willful ignorance can be readily defined as malice.

Your ill-advised attempt at wishing me (and 11 million other NYers) a short life are indicative of some serious personal problems. Help is just a phone call away. Good Luck.

[Gimel]

98. On the contrary

I wish you and all the 11 million other NYers a long and prosperous life. I have a few friends there, but again the health statistics are real.

[Jackie97]

68. You just described Israel, the occupied territories, and Lebanon.

Don't even try to make this out to be the problem of only Israel.

I get tired of "pro-Israelis" saying "You shouldn't criticize us when you don't know what it's like to be in our shoes", because the very same thing can be said for the nations that Israel occupies.

Why should I consider the lives of Israelis more than the lives of people from Lebanon, the West Bank, or the Gaza Strip?

[Gimel]

75. You shouldn't but Israel must

You can say that from afar. What I'm saying is that in Israel, on the northern border, the threat of rocket attacks has not stopped a single day. This is not a targeted attack on military bases. These are random attacks on civilians. Again, you seem to have little contact with facts or have failed to recognize the actual situation.

[StandWatie]

81. no, but rocket attacks have

I'm supposed to be sympathetic to a "threat" while Israeli fighter/bombers are overflying (also known as "threatening") Lebanon?

[Gimel]

85. Never your sympathy

That would surly be assuming too much. I'm only trying for logic.

[StandWatie]

87. what logic?

That because Hezbollah held up their end of the ceasefire it makes sense on some planet to constantly sonic boom Beirut?!

[Jackie97]

96. The problem with many people and sympathy.

The problem with many people and sympathy is that there's enough to go all around, not just for Israel.