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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:43 AM
Original message
Israeli jets roar over Lebanon
Israeli war planes roared into southern and northern parts of Lebanon on Sunday breaking the sound barrier, security sources said.
Witnesses said the jets swooped in pairs over Tyre in south Lebanon and flew as far north as the city Tripoli.
There was no immediate response from Hizbollah which usually fires its anti-aircraft gunners at the Israeli jets.
Earlier this month Israeli warplanes struck suspected Hizbollah anti-aircraft artillery on the edge of a southern Lebanese village, in retaliation to Hizbollah rounds at Israeli jets that flew into Lebanese skies.

http://famulus.msnbc.com/FamulusIntl/reuters09-14-04270...
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Paschall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. Are we at war with Syria yet?
:eyes:
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. No, but Israel is
And has been for 55 years, so is not surprising.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. israel appears to be at war with a lot of her neighbors
guess the whole occupation thing ain't goin over well in that region :shrug:

peace
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. No occupation of Israel
Israelis live there. It's their neighbors who can't learn to deal with that.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. The occupation...
not of israel, but the West Bank and Gaza. That is what he/she is talking about I believe.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Don't bet on it
nt
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. you lost
thats EXACTLY what I was talking about... just to clear the muddle

peace
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. The terrorist definition
Given that Israel has to contend, every day, with the terrorist definition that ALL Israel is occupied, there are no guarantees.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Bpilgrim is not a terrorist...
and your post is one of the most pathetic things I've read from you, just one though.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. No Bpilgrim is no terrorist
But Israel has to deal with the real thing and THEIR definition which is what I was referring to.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. back-peddling builds the quads
but you knew that...
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. When I backpeddle
I'll let you know.
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #36
59. muddle can't be backpeddling...
since he never peddled that bp was a terrorist to start with...

you invented that to attack him...
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
70. That is not a "terrorist" definition. It is a Palestinian definition.
But the idea that these people are threat to get their country back is, unfortunately, ludicrous. Of course all who oppose humanitarians like Sharon and the Likudniks are by "definition"; "terrorists". Apparently murdering people while wearing a uniform and with advanced technology is now always "legitimate". Let me assure you that the continued brutalizing of the Palestinian people is fully "guaranteed". By the Bush and the USA.
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
28. Most of the neighbors could live with Israel....
If the Israeli government wasn't invading land like crazy for their own religious puposes and to be a good friend to the U.S.

Solution: Israel, get out of Lebanon. Get out of Syria. Get out of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Just get out!
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Lebanon
Actually, Israel is out of Lebanon, Syria, however is not.

A jet flyover is not an invasion. Syria invaded and conquered.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. A jet fly-over is an invasion of airspace....
recognized around the world, except in the Israeli amen corner.

Your edumacation has become suspect amongst other things...
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Tolerating terrorists
Is an act of war. Big deal.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #42
60. really?
What can you do if that's so? Say Israel has a revolving door policy on their terrorists (easily demonstrable), what does that allow Palestinians to do? Say Israel is still arming the SLA (harder to prove but very likely) what does that allow Lebanon to do?
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. All nations can do what they have always done
And go to war. You don't really need a justification for it, but it helps.

Israel and many of her neighbors have been at war for 55 years.
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #42
62. Is Kissinger still within your borders?
Time to roll out the Cruise Missiles!

I hear we have a Trident sub in the Pacific...
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Oh I can't wait for this answer...
probably not forthcoming anyway.

:thumbsup:
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #37
93. please try
to post an intellegent non insulting answer. Truth Syria invaded and still occupies Lebanon. Accept it and go on from there.
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #93
97. Yeah, and Israel tacitly supported that invasion
Which you probably didn't know.

Try googling it.
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #32
50. And Lebanon has a right to fight Syria back.
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loudnclear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
3. Isreal is not going to rest until the US attacks another Arab country...
Anybody else notice that we are the United States of Israel?
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. LOL
Yes, and those pesky Jews control the IMF, World Bank and the New York Stock Exchange as well.

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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Behold..
.....the Straw Man!



Description of Straw Man:
The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Nothing straw about it
People who think the U.S. is run by Jewish interests exhibit the same rhetoric of those who think Jews control everything.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. When did he mention the word "Jews" in his post?
It appears that you were the one who brought that up, not him.

That is indeed a straw man.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Calling us the United States of Israel
is clear enough.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. there is no denying the very powerful influance israeli policy has
with this admin

peace
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Powerful influence
Lots of groups have a powerful influence on the U.S. and its policies. But funny how Israel's opponents are the only ones to really claim that Israel controls things.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. like AIPAC and the OIL CARTELS are the problem
addressing it doesn't make us 'Israel's opponents' but concerned americans.

peace
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. What about other groups?
Lots of groups have influence in the U.S., but somehow Israeli PACs are the only ones that get focus.
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chapter32 Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Because this is called I/P Forum!
You want to talk about Marshal Islands PAC here? Give me a break!
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. What garbage
Our government is based entirely on the influence of a ton of groups. Pro-Israel PACs are but one of those. You overplay their import.
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chapter32 Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Garbage. n/t
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Nice, short, and to the point.
:thumbsup:
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. Because they've been rather successful...
Name another nation that recieves as much US aid.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Foreign aid
America gives hardly any. But we give a bunch to various Arab nations. Then there is also military aid. If you count that, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait sure got a ton.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. That doesn't change the facts...
And I hate Saudi Arabia's government more than I hate Israel's.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. Some agreement
I think we both hate Saudi Arabia's government equally.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. the 2 most powerful lobby interest have TEAMED UP AIPAC and OIL
and that has lead to devestating consequences for america and many in the ME.

I wish they would go back to fighting one another.

peace
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
20. how strange
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 10:48 AM by Aidoneus
Israel continues these blatent provocations and aggressive behavior against Lebanon, all people can talk about is AIPAC or any other diversion like always.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. the tolerance by our current admin to israel
not at all strange when you look at the strong ties to AIPAC and the ISRAELI far right and folks in our current admin, no?

peace
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I guess..
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 11:05 AM by Aidoneus
but look at the effect here, there's a total diversion away from the act of aggression itself onto stupidities like Jews controlling the IMF, "terrorist definition" of "occupation", etc..
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. true
but consider the source

:hi:

peace
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. Act of aggression
Well, since Syria/Lebanon tolerates a military in its midst that continues to attack Israel, the jet flyover is minor.

I made my comments about the rest after the moronic statement about a "United States of Israel."

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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. How very-very-very strange
most Jews I know are DEMS!
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. indeed
but i am talking about the far right neo-cons and they have the helm and the con...

peace
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
24. Hizbollah fires at Israeli jets over Lebanon
Hizbollah fires at Israeli jets over Lebanon

BEIRUT, Sept 14 (Reuters) - Lebanon's Hizbollah guerrilla group said it fired anti- aircraft rounds on Sunday at Israeli war planes which roared into southern and northern parts of Lebanon.

"The air defence unit of the Islamic Resistance challenged ...Israeli enemy war planes that violated Lebanese sovereignty over the middle sector of south Lebanon...and also over Bint Jbeil," a statement from the Shi'ite Muslim group said.

No planes were reported hit.

Residents said the jets swooped in pairs and broke the sound barrier over Tyre in south Lebanon and flew as far north as the city of Tripoli.

--snip--

http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=20030...
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
27. Notice something here.....
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 11:44 AM by Jackie97
Lebanon kills people from Israel when Israel enters *Lebanon's* skies. Israel kills people from Lebanon when they enter *Lebanon's* skies.

Israel, stay the heck out of other people's territory, and maybe you won't be loosing citizens. Just stay the heck out. Gosh, why is that so hard to ask?

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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Simple as you've said
Edited on Sun Sep-14-03 12:48 PM by Gimel
Life is simple as 1, 2, 3. Don't I know it /sarcasm.

Added interpretation:

1. Shelling continues killing Israeli citizens (1978-1981)

2. Israel attacks terrorist bases then occupies Lebanon

3. Israel withdraws to security zone. (1985) Constant attacks by terror groups

4. Israel withdraws from Lebanon completely (2001 - Security Council Certifies Israel Withdrawal from Lebanon)
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/lebwith.html

5. Across-boarder attacks begin again:

Security Update
The Security Council extended the U.N. peacekeeping mission in southern Lebanon for six months, a foreign news agency reported on Friday.

Israel's U.N. Ambassador Dan Gillerman said his government was very concerned that the council welcomed the steps taken by Lebanon in the south because Hezbollah still operates there and has threatened to kidnap more Israelis and carry out terror attacks against American targets.

http://www.lebanonlinks.com /

Easy as 1, 2, 3 and then go back to go. 1, 2, 3 again and again.
History of War in Lebanon
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/Lebanon_War.ht...


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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Hezbollah operates in South Lebanon......
....so Israeli jets fly over Tripoli (which is northern Lebanon). Deliberate provocation masquerading as defense of Israel.

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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. The government of Lebanon/Syria
Tolerates terrorism in south Lebanon, so THEY invite military reprisal.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. The government of Israel.
Invades Lebanese airspace, so THEY invite military reprisal (which Israel calls terrorism).
And around and around we go......
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Hezbollah
Has been attacking Israel despite Israeli withdrawl from Lebanon. And so it goes.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. Maybe Israel should try..
...withdrawing from Lebanese airspace also.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #47
54. Contiguous
As the airspace is contiguous, that has the feel of illusion and hypocrisy. What space does laebanon claim at 10,000 feet? Hizbullah respects no one. Even claims to want to dominate the world.
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-14-03 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #29
51. Okay....
But with all of that, there still lies the fact that nobody from Lebanon had killed an Isreali since the withdrawal of their land. This one person was the first one in a long time, and that was only because Israeli planes were in their skies. After over a twenty year occupation, Lebanon don't want to see Israel in their skies. It still sounds to me that Israel looses a lot less people when they stay out of other territory.

I also have to add in addition to all that reading something that wasn't mentioned. There was the Sabra and Shatilla massacres, that resulted in the deaths of thousands of Lebanese people. Ariel Sharon and the Isreali government are currently the ones considered to be responsible for these massacres. In my opinion, that doesn't compare to a busload of Israelis or loosing some soldiers. After that, Lebanon doesn't want Israel to be there.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. Ongoing attacks
The government of Lebanon/Syria allows Hezbollah to operate and continue ongoing attacks against Israel. As such, it promotes war and invites retaliation by Israel.
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #53
67. Is there proof of that?
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #67
82. Rockets
Well, the rockets that get launched from Lebanon into Israel so often that they rarely make news.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. anti-aircraft, you mean?
fired at the jets threatening Lebanon on a regular basis.. Lebanese defending themselves against threats is your big conspiracy? At least bring up Shebaa..that's at least something to debate over.

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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. Sure, anti-aircraft, right, lol
Yeah, antiaircraft aimed at people who live in the area.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. he is right..
you can laugh all you want but that's all that's been fired.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. But not as antiaircraft
The German 88s made nice anti-tank weapons too. It's not what the weapon is, it's how it is used.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. so why does it only go off when Israeli planes fly over?
wouldn't the logical thing to do would be to stop the illegal flyovers if they are that worried about flak?

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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. riiight..
fired at aircraft, but it's for some mystical reason NOT anti-aircraft. Curse Hizbullah for not being able to circumvent the laws of physics! :eyes:
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. it's Israeli conjecture
(or open flat out lie) that they are firing the anti-air too low and *hoping* that flak will hit the houses. If they are Israel has some huge balls for even trying to bitch about "collateral damage".
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. LOL
It goes up as anti-aircraft fire, but when it comes down it's terrorism!
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. Injuries only
Yes, we put up with rockets falling in the cities, people sent to the hospital. That's fine. Just a normal day-to-day life. Jackie, where do you live? Do you have rockets falling in your house or around it? Are you afraid to let your children go outside to play?
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. What kind of idiot would bring a child to a war zone?
The childs parents should be arrested for child endangerment. Maybe they don't have laws against endangering children?

Attribution
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. All of Israel is a war zone
Your understanding would be appreciated.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. Live by the sword...
die by the sword.

I, for one, would have as priority one, the saftey of my children. I wouldn't take them with me on some colonial expedition mired in conflict.

It's obvious that too many are more in love with a patch of sacred sand than their own children. Must be something in the water...
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. You have a choice, perhaps
Israelis don't. If Israel pulls back from the border area, what will the terrorists do? I'm sure that isn't too hard for anyone to figure out.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. everyone taking part in colonial activities
makes that choice for themselves and their children.

Who is forcing settlers to colonize the WB? Arafat?

If Israel pulls back from the border area...

If "Israel" (I assume you mean the IDF and/or settlers) were only in the "border area" this would be a different discussion.

I'm sure that isn't too hard for anyone to figure out.

Au contraire, it's much too difficult for *anyone* with a leadership position to "figure out". That's obvious to all but the brain-dead.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Lebanese border
We were discussing the northern border here, not the WB. This border has been varified by the UN. The "settlers" are Israelis in Israel. I guess you haven't figured it out yet. :(
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. Ah yes...
let's not discuss anything Gimel doesn't want to...what a pantload.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #71
79. Can discuss anything you want to
Edited on Tue Sep-16-03 02:31 AM by Gimel
I'm not the mod squad. However, when discussing Lebanon, the WB situation does not apply. Lebanon has a border with Israel, the WB is not defined with a border.

Edit: to add a missing letter
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #61
69. Let's see.
Israel made peace with both Eygpt and Lebanon. Up until recently, no Lebanese people have killed an Isareli, and this wasn't a terrorist attack now. I haven't read up on any Eygptians killing Israelis in terrorist attacks since peace was made.

Maybe the Palestinians would leave the Israelis alone. I am certain that if the Palestinians got their freedom, then support for groups that want to "destroy Israel" would be cut by almost ninety percent. OTOH, I don't see the Palestinians stopping the violence before they are free. This is a liberation movement. They want their freedom, and they're using violence to persuade the Isareli government to give it to them.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Except the Palestinian terror groups want it all
Edited on Mon Sep-15-03 10:46 PM by Muddleoftheroad
All of Israel, not just the disputed territories.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. Unilateral peace
No one said that there was a peace agreement with Lebanon. There was a unilateral withdrawal from the security zone under Barak. since then, across-border attacks have continued, in fact from the very first day, from the Lebanon side.

Egyptians have attacked Israelis across border attacks as well, although a few years ago. Because you haven't heard of it isn't a very convincing argument.

As for the Palestinians, they have other demands. Israel would like to settle with them, but they are unreasonable. They want all the terrorists released, for instance, they want all of Jerusalem, and to work in Israel also. They want right of return. Really, I think you should know the problems with that by now. In effect, they want to dominate Israeli society.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. Alice-in-wonderlogic meets Bizarro world
:crazy:
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #74
76. Your own mirror
suit yourself, New Yorkers have a significantly lower life expectancy than other Americans.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. Mirrors? At least I can look in one...
Edited on Tue Sep-16-03 12:29 AM by newyorican
Your statement is not only false, it is rather mean-spirited bile against a city of 11 million just so you can get to me. I guess 10,999,999 people are justifiable collateral damage, eh.

On Edit: Forgot the link

Columbus Listed Lowest Life Expectancy in Nation
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. US is only 6th
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/07/10/un.list/inde...

Don't play if you can't pay.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/04/07/rec.ny.stress/index.ht...

As for Columbus, Georgia, sounds like another disaster area. I'm sure the US has many.

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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. I said your statement is false...
and provided a link to prove it false.

The only question left is whether you are driven by ignorance or malice. Your demeanor indicates the latter.

A reminder of your false statement:
New Yorkers have a significantly lower life expectancy than other Americans. - Gimel

Care to respond or will you continue to plead "no contest". If I got caught making shit up, I would consider apologizing. I will also recommend a clean mirror and a handbook on self-examination for you to go to work on your, all too obvious, character flaws.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. New arrivals
So New York was surpassed without my knowledge. It was an error. Call it ignorance if you like, but not malice.

Really? what is your favorite "self-examination handbook"?
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #84
95. still making shit up
New York was never "surpassed" as it has never had the lowest life expectancy in the US. I would advise you to quit while you're ahead, but you've been behind the 8-Ball from the first word. Such willful ignorance can be readily defined as malice.

Your ill-advised attempt at wishing me (and 11 million other NYers) a short life are indicative of some serious personal problems. Help is just a phone call away. Good Luck.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-03 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #95
98. On the contrary
I wish you and all the 11 million other NYers a long and prosperous life. I have a few friends there, but again the health statistics are real.
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-15-03 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #55
68. You just described Israel, the occupied territories, and Lebanon.
Don't even try to make this out to be the problem of only Israel.

I get tired of "pro-Israelis" saying "You shouldn't criticize us when you don't know what it's like to be in our shoes", because the very same thing can be said for the nations that Israel occupies.

Why should I consider the lives of Israelis more than the lives of people from Lebanon, the West Bank, or the Gaza Strip?
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #68
75. You shouldn't but Israel must
You can say that from afar. What I'm saying is that in Israel, on the northern border, the threat of rocket attacks has not stopped a single day. This is not a targeted attack on military bases. These are random attacks on civilians. Again, you seem to have little contact with facts or have failed to recognize the actual situation.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #75
81. no, but rocket attacks have
I'm supposed to be sympathetic to a "threat" while Israeli fighter/bombers are overflying (also known as "threatening") Lebanon?
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #81
85. Never your sympathy
That would surly be assuming too much. I'm only trying for logic.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #85
87. what logic?
That because Hezbollah held up their end of the ceasefire it makes sense on some planet to constantly sonic boom Beirut?!

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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-16-03 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #85
96. The problem with many people and sympathy.
The problem with many people and sympathy is that there's enough to go all around, not just for Israel.
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