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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 05:05 AM
Original message
BBC: UK sold plutonium to Israel in 60s
BBC reveals that Britain sold plutonium knowing it would be used for nuclear weapons. Britain Technology minister at the time: I'm shocked; I always suspected government officials signed deals behind my back

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3226162,00.ht...

<snip>

"More nuclear secrets exposed: Britain supplied plutonium to Israel in the 1960s while Harold Wilson was the British Prime Minister, the BBC reported on Thursday.

According to the report, the plutonium was sold to Israel despite a warning from British Intelligence that it could be use to produce nuclear weapons.

Under the Wilson administration (1964-1970) Britain sold tons of fortifying chemicals, which make a nuclear bomb 20 times more powerful than the bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

Before that, during the Harold Macmillan government (1957-1963) the UK supplied Israel with uranium and heavy water, allowing Israel to
begin production of nuclear weapons in Dimona's nuclear reactor. British Intelligence believed that Israel could produce "six bombs a year".

The BBC exposed the sale of heavy water back in August of last year, but the British government released a statement to the International Atomic Energy Agency that it never made any deal with Israel but did sell heavy water to Norway."
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 05:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. of course they did.
the west is no more interested in a balanced, equitable point of view than those we accuse of lacking the same.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 05:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. well, duh!
Talk about old news.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. You knew this already?1?!
Wow, what's yer source of info, I didn't know about this, the documents revealed
were top secret, this is a new claim;

'Secret sale of UK plutonium to Israel

By Meirion Jones
BBC Newsnight

The UK supplied Israel with quantities of plutonium while Harold Wilson was prime minister, BBC Newsnight can reveal.

The sale was made despite a warning from British intelligence that it might "make a material contribution to an Israeli weapons programme".

Under Wilson, Britain also sold Israel tons of chemicals used to make boosted atom bombs 20 times more powerful than Hiroshima or even Hydrogen Bombs.

In Harold Macmillan's time the UK supplied uranium 235 and the heavy water which allowed Israel to start up its nuclear weapons production plant at Dimona - heavy water which British intelligence estimated would allow Israel to make "six nuclear weapons a year".

Last August on BBC Newsnight we revealed the first British/Israeli deal, the sale of the heavy water, but the government responded by telling the International Atomic Energy Agency the UK was not a party to any sale to Israel and that all it did was sell some heavy water back to Norway.

Hundreds of shipments

Using Freedom of Information, Newsnight has obtained top secret papers. They show Foreign Minister Kim Howells misled the IAEA and that Britain made not one, but hundreds of secret shipments of nuclear materials to Israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4789832...
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. well, duh....part 2
Edited on Sat Mar-11-06 05:10 AM by Behind the Aegis
Secret UK-Israel N-deal revealed

August 04, 2005 19:19 IST

BBC: U.K. Sold Nuke Material to Israel

Thursday, August 04, 2005

UK secretly sold key component for Israeli nuclear reactor

Thursday, August 05, 2005

Secret papers confirm UK helping Israel to develop nuclear arms

10-12-2005

How Britain helped Israel get the bomb

Last Updated: Wednesday, 3 August 2005, 17:54 GMT 18:54 UK

Then again, there is this..

Englander (1000+ posts) Fri Feb-17-06 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. It was France, & Norway (via GB) that provided the materials.
Ironically, given the situation we're in today, the JFK admin tried to keep
nukes out of the region, & wasn't keen on supplying Isreal with weapons.

'John F. Kennedy and Israel

Description: John F. Kennedy entered the White House hoping to make America and the world a better and safer place in which to live. Through diplomacy, he wanted to achieve a settlement of the East-West tensions and to bring about a peaceful resolution to such issues as the Israeli-Arab conflict. Although his provision of defensive HAWK anti-aircraft missiles, in response to Russian, French and British arms sales to the Arabs, made him the first President to supply arms to Israel, Kennedy feared both exacerbation of the arms race and the proliferation of nuclear weapons. While he remained an honest and loyal friend to Israel, he also attempted to further America's relationship with the Arab states and to encourage a settlement of the Arab refugee issue. Kennedy was an independent thinker who learned how to rely upon his own best judgment and intelligence rather than upon his father or officials like Dean Rusk or Allen Dulles. Kennedy ultimately agreed to regular consultations between Israeli and American military personnel, but he would not agree to a dual alliance nor would he allow America to become Israel's main source of military equipment. The author contends that it was this precarious and uncertain diplomatic and military situation that encouraged Israel to develop its own defense industries and to investigate the possibilities of producing its own nuclear weapons systems.

http://www.greenwood.com/psi/book_detail.aspx?sku=C8007

________________________

'How Britain helped Israel get the bomb

Newsnight reporter Michael Crick tells the story of how Britain helped Israel build the bomb - without telling the Americans.

Documents uncovered by Newsnight in the British National Archives show how, in 1958, Britain agreed to sell Israel 20 tonnes of heavy water, a vital ingredient for the production of plutonium at Israel's top secret Dimona nuclear reactor in the Negev desert.

Robert McNamara, President John F Kennedy's defence secretary, has told Newsnight he is "astonished" at the revelation that Britain kept this secret from America.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4743493 ...
source


So do you really want to say...

You knew this already?1?!
Wow, what's yer source of info, I didn't know about this, the documents revealed
were top secret, this is a new claim;


I am guessing my 'source' is the same as yours...Last Updated: Wednesday, 3 August 2005, 17:54 GMT 18:54 UK...especially, since you posted it on Fri Feb-17-06 05:53 AM.


On edit: I guess YOU did know about this already. Gotta hate that search function!


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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. The sale of plutonium is the new claim.
The sale of plutonium, by the Wilson Govt in the 60's is the new claim.
That's what I was referring to, obviously, since it's a new claim, that
I haven't heard before, the sale of the heavy water by the Macmillan Govt
wasn't the new claim that this article is referring to, wasn't that obvious?

Do any of those articles linked (one's from Fux, fer fux sake!) mention this
sale of plutonium, by the Harold Wilson Govt? Since that's the new claim, &
since this new claim is a Newnight *exclusive*, I'm betting they don't.

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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Original message: "BBC: UK sold plutonium to Israel in 60s."
Behind the Aegis (1000+ posts)
Fri Mar-10-06 06:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. well, duh!
Talk about old news.


Which one of those old news links you provided discuss "UK sold plutonium to Israel in the 60's?"
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. The answer's 'None'.
Which isn't surprising, because all of the posted articles & links refer to the previous
claim, namely the sale of heavy water in the 1950's. None of the posted articles & Du posts
discuss the sale of plutonium by Uk to Isreal in the 60's, which, again, isn't terribly
surprising, because this new claim was previously only in classified, top secret documents.
A claim that was only revealed this week, obviously, wouldn't be discussed in articles from
August last year, so I'm slightly baffled as to why such articles would be used as evidence
to support the claim that 'UK sold plutonium to Israel in 60s.', when there's zero mention of
any such sale, for obvious reasons.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. Compare, & contrast;
Old claim;

'How Britain helped Israel get the bomb

Documents uncovered by Newsnight in the British National Archives show how, in 1958, Britain agreed to sell Israel 20 tonnes of heavy water, a vital ingredient for the production of plutonium at Israel's top secret Dimona nuclear reactor in the Negev desert.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4743493...

_________________________

New claim;

'BBC: UK sold plutonium to Israel in 60s

More nuclear secrets exposed: Britain supplied plutonium to Israel in the 1960s while Harold Wilson was the British Prime Minister, the BBC reported on Thursday.

According to the report, the plutonium was sold to Israel despite a warning from British Intelligence that it could be use to produce nuclear weapons.

Under the Wilson administration (1964-1970) Britain sold tons of fortifying chemicals, which make a nuclear bomb 20 times more powerful than the bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3226162,00.ht...


Can you see the difference? Can you see which elements of the articles are different?
Can you see which elements that are mentioned in article 2, that were not mentioned in
article 1?
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Crow
I misread. However, I am 'big enough' to admit I made a mistake. When I read the OP, I thought it was restating the previously known, "Britain agreed to sell Israel 20 tonnes of heavy water, a vital ingredient for the production of plutonium..." I thought the "new" knowledge was a re-wording of the "old" knowledge.

When the next article comes out and says they actually gave a bomb to Israel, I will be more careful.
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-10-06 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
3. when was the nonproliferation treaty
when was the NPT signed?
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Opened for signing in 1968:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Proliferation_Treaty

UK signed it in 1968. Israel has yet to sign.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 06:24 AM
Response to Original message
9. Straw: Israel's nukes will be dealt with after Iran
British foreign minister says Iran, Israel nukes pose potential threat; Britain seeking nuclear-free Middle East

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3226278,00.ht...

<snip>

"British Foreign Minister Jack Straw said Thursday that Britain wants to see a nuclear-free Middle East, saying now that action has been taken against Iraq and Libya, Iran and Israel remain the only two nations posing potential threat.

Speaking to Channel 4 Straw said: "If you want to see a nuclear-free Middle East, you've got to remove that threat from Iran, including the rhetorical threat to wipe Israel off the face of the map. Once you've done that, then we can get on to work in respect of Israel."











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heirs_of_liberty Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Maybe we can get Jack Straw banned from here too
<sarcasm> How dare anyone even suggest that the egalitarian free liberal democratic republic of Israel could be any sort of a threat to itself or others, by virtue of a pointless, valueless, and apparently only very selectively defensive nuclear arsenal? </sarcasm>

Nuclear weapons are THE #1 THREAT to world peace and security. They are the #1 threat to the poor, Post-WWII tyrannized peoples who's conservative-fascist Hitler/Stalin copycat ultra-imperial fascist nations are so sadly still afflicted with their horrors.

The misguided, foolish nations who are seeking such miserable, hateful, criminal, pointless, valueless, useless and destructive afflictions, to keep up with these irresponsible drugged religious/communal socialist Jonesers who mistakenly equate Armageddon with 'security' are even sounding far more dangerous.

Unfortunately the second piece of the puzzle is the unstable, unelected military industrial dictatorship of Pakistan that is now Israel and the world's single largest and most serious threat, thanks to Reagan/Bush and their unconstitutional, illegal, hateful Revelationist "Taliban engineering" program of criminally raising the foreign Mujihadeen Army by bribing, colluding and pandering to Pakistan.

Handing out the nuclear candy to Israel by Britain's MI6 crusaders was not merely a stupidly myopic Cold War favour, it was part of the design of a much larger and farther reaching conservative Revelationist crusader plot. Jack better be watching out for Anglican Fascist conservative MI6/MI5 mafiosi fundies lurking in the dark of the night, for he has crossed a very sensitive line.

The Iran question is a joke and a serious deflection from the more sobering truth of the real, genuine, 'here and now' state of global Post- Cold War insecurity brought about by the rise of this long-foreseeable World War III conflict between these three mighty religious-socialist fascist ideologies.

Unlike even highly enriched uranium which is useless for compact high yield weapons production, the lighter plutonium byproduct of uranium fission(division)reactors is the ultimate enriched fuel specifically required for advanced nuclear warhead manufacturing. It is impractical as reactor fuel since one has to have uranium reactors to produce it, ergo it was specifically provided for a weapons arsenal.
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