So now that Sharon is probably out of commission....

[sweetm2475]

How many of these Zionists are they gonna strut out for the cameras to spew their vile garbage about what kind of leader "they" think Israel should have next? For those out there who are sensitive to this issue, let me clarify something: I am not an anti-semite, but I AM anti-zion and I am so sick of seeing these cretins on the tube lately everytime I flip the channel. They are sick bastards who would happily sacrifice any country in the world INCLUDING the U.S. if they felt it was necessary.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[bpilgrim]

8. no worries

these images never get show on our M$M i wonder why :shrug:

:hi:

peace

[TahitiNut]

12. I wish they had enough paint for a comma.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

2. So Should they

just fold up shop and move to miami?

Really what do you think Israel is going to do?

You are aware who created the state os Israel.

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

5. Green Line? or Hamas Rules?

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

10. You mean the borders the UN drew?

before 3 wars started by the arab states.

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

19. How long after the UN

drew israel did the arab states wait to INVADE?

Love the dramatic pictures. By the angle on the guys elbow you can tell the muzzle of that rifle is not pointed at those people..Left hand is not on the weapon.

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

23. Is that may of 1946..

Thats was when they were radicalized.

The people who died in the middle of a firefight. Terrible loss.

I will not post pictures of women and children blown up on busses and public places, as a point of policy.

The palestinians intentionally target civilians.

What do you thing Israel should do. Drop back to pre 67 or disappear?

[bpilgrim]

28. no, that is from a couple years ago, the occupation continues - fyi

i will not contribute to sanitizing the brutal occupation of palestine nor iraq.

for that only serves to perpetuate the brutality imho.

the terrorist on both sides intentionally target civilians.

i think israel and the US should follow the will of the world community as represented in the UN just as we expect other nations to, before they start wwIII - if it hasn't already :nuke:

peace

[Colorado Blue]

38. I think they attacked the very day of Israel's birth. And they

promised to kill every Jew in the Middle East.

This was 3 years after the Holocaust. The Mufti of Jerusalem had spent the war years in Berlin, helping Hitler, and was in Lebanon helping direct the attack on the newborn state of Israel in 1948.

[bpilgrim]

31. typical, never want to adhere to U.N. rules only your own, eh?

but you expect the rest of the world to follow them and never hesitate to point to others who violate the U.N. rules :eyes:

peace

[sweetm2475]

6. LOL! I just posted the same pic.

:rofl:

[sweetm2475]

18. when does who did what and when become less important than what we do now?

i have my own opinions on all of that. i believe the "settlers" are just that. people who settled on someone else's land. but what does it matter what i think? what does it matter what any of us think. my point is that giving these fundamentalist freaks this much face time, is just par for the course when it comes to brainwashing the American public. i can't speak for Israelis any more than i can speak for Palestinians but i would guess anyone in that area with a family, kids, or just the desire to go out to eat without the fear of being blown up by suicide bombers OR the Israeli military would probably be willing to come to some sort of peaceful arrangement. but Zionists are not interested in peace. only in promoting the hate to further their own fundamental beliefs. and the U.S. continues to help pay the price.$$$$$$ i'm tired of it. like i said, i can't speak for anyone else, but common sense tells me there must be plenty of israelis and palestinians who are sick of it as well.

[madrchsod]

9. the moderator must be asleep

i think bibi`s party will win the next election with help from another party. sharon got this far on his charisma and now there is no one to keep the road open

[megatherium]

11. People are now saying Sharon's Kadima party will still win,

and his policies will therefore be continued: Build a wall around the Palestinian territories, in effect annexing portions of the West Bank, but forcing most Jewish settlements to be abandoned. No peace, but much reduced terrorism.

[bpilgrim]

14. no, we are allowed to discuss this event because it is so momentous

to some

pece

[megatherium]

16. Are you 'anti-zion' as in there should be no Isreal?

Or Isreal only within its original pre-1967 borders?

[sweetm2475]

21. i actually think they should go pre-1967....

but if you read my post at #18, i also believe it is not for us to decide, that is between israel and palestine, my problem with all this is that everytime i see a discussion about this on the tube lately, it is all about how they need a new leader who is as strong on national security as sharon, little to no talk about how the new leader should be one who is open minded and concerned with coming up with a peaceful solution and how that would be much more important to their national security than the terrorism sharon brought to the table. i know sharon is not well right now and i don't like to talk about people in that condition, but, come on, let's be real. the man was a war criminal.

[bpilgrim]

22. sharon NEVER negotiated with anyone

of course our elite, the M$M and their followers are all for that :crazy:

peace

[sweetm2475]

27. kinda like an Israeli Dubya...

Why is it that the REAL terrorists never negotiate with turrists? BTW, thanks for the help. i knew starting that thread probably wasn't the smartest thing to do, people get VERY sensitive, but i really believe that we have to get over the fear of having debates about this. What good is killing all the "turrists" when we never address the reasons people become that way? :eyes:

[bpilgrim]

29. yep

and i agree it is beyond time to air these issues out in the open and that is the one good thing i can think of coming out of Sharon's current situation.

:hi:

peace

[megatherium]

33. There is a big difference between Dubya and Sharon:

Dubya military record is dubious at best, but Sharon is regarded by many in Isreal as a war hero for his initiative and success as a tank general in the Sinai in 1967 and 1973.

[bpilgrim]

35. yeah, sharon actually participated in the killing of civilians

and why he is considered a TERRORIST by many just like arafat.

peace

[Pavulon]

26. They are all dirty, on both sides.

Bottom line. When they pull out of the west bank and draw up a state for palestine, do you thing the arab states will support it?

I think they will recognize that their pawns in a cold war with israel are no longer useful. The us and europe will end up rebuilding palestine.

[Colorado Blue]

39. Sharon WAS open-minded; he was the person who led the

withdrawal from Gaza, and went to the UN and made a speech committing himself to the Palestinian state.

As for his "war crimes", a study of Sabra and Shatilla will reveal the facts: it was a foul deed committed by the Lebanese. Sharon was found "indirectly responsible" because he was the commander of the Israeli forces, which were nearby.

I think also it's impossible to judge Sharon - or Israeli policy in general - in a vacuum. There have been 5 wars since 1948, 7 if you count the intifadas, and countless acts of terror.

[sweetm2475]

42. whose interests do you think sharon had in mind? and what about the wall?

read this, or watch the video if you have a chance. its a great interview done by Amy Goodman with Human Rights Watch.http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/06/1451234

[Name removed]

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[regnaD kciN]

32. A must-read...all of it!

:kick:

[malaise]

41. Thanks for reposting that

for Sharon's history is about to be sanitized. He's a fugging war criminal plain and simple. There's a classic cartoon in one of the Arab newspapers this week showing the 'blood on his brain'.

[in_cog_ni_to]

24. This should be in the I/P forum.

You neglected to state which Zionists you saw on TV every time you flipped the channel? Who? Any names? What did they say? Which sick bastards are you talking about?

[sweetm2475]

30. i don't know how to change what forum it is in

but if that's what you want me to do, i'll do it, just tell me how.

[in_cog_ni_to]

34. Moderator has to do it. n/t

[sweetm2475]

36. WJ yesterday, today, probably every day for the next 2 weeks

Mc Laughlin Group just now. I just made a general statement about whenever I see any discourse about this lately on TV.

BTW, I have a problem with this, do you?

"In a lengthy article in The American Conservative criticizing the rationale for the projected U.S. attack on Iraq, the veteran diplomatic historian Paul W. Schroeder noted (only in passing) "what is possibly the unacknowledged real reason and motive behind the policy — security for Israel." If Israel's security were indeed the real American motive for war, Schroeder wrote,

It would represent something to my knowledge unique in history. It is common for great powers to try to fight wars by proxy, getting smaller powers to fight for their interests. This would be the first instance I know where a great power (in fact, a superpower) would do the fighting as the proxy of a small client state. <1>

Is there any evidence that Israel and her supporters have managed to get the United States to fight for their interests?

To unearth the real motives for the projected war on Iraq, one must ask the critical question: How did the 9/11 terrorist attack lead to the planned war on Iraq, even though there is no real evidence that Iraq was involved in 9/11? From the time of the 9/11 attack, neoconservatives, of primarily (though not exclusively) Jewish ethnicity and right-wing Zionist persuasion, have tried to make use of 9/11 to foment a broad war against Islamic terrorism, the targets of which would coincide with the enemies of Israel."

http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/snieg_conc1.htm

So where are the ZIONISTS on the TV, the answer to that is they are ALL OVER THE F*N PLACE. Just like they are all over our government. Do you really think the MSM would tout anything or anybody else? So my post was more about a generalization, pointing out the fact that they are there in our face everyday to begin with, just now with this going on, we have to hear MORE of how poor Israel, they try so hard, and those Palestinians just won't stop blowing themselves up, blah, blah, blah. That's why we need to support Israel when they blow Iran off the map and we should give them more American taxpayer money to build their F*N wall.

Human Rights Watch Calls on Bush to Cut Aid To Israel Over Expansion of Illegal Settlements

Sharon has been one of the most dominant political figures in Israel's history. He’s been involved in each of Israel's major wars, dating back to its founding in 1948, and is seen as the father of the settlement movement. As prime minister, Sharon oversaw the continued building of the West Bank separation wall and Israel's disengagement from the Gaza Strip. While leaders around the world hailed Sharon's tenure, there has also been intense criticism of his policies. Israel is the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign aid with direct assistance and loans exceeding $5 billion in 2005.

Last month, Human Rights Watch called on the Bush administration to cut back foreign aid to Israel. In a letter to President Bush, the group's Middle East Director, Sarah Leah Whitson, asked President Bush to deduct from Israel's foreign aid assistance the amount it spends on expansion of settlements in the separation wall in the West Bank. The organization says the request marks the first time a major human rights group has asked for an actual cut in direct aid to Israel. Whitson also wrote a letter to New York senator, Hillary Rodham Clinton, in November, asking her to reconsider her position in support of the wall. Sarah Leah Whitson joins us in our Firehouse studio. She's Executive Director of the Middle East and North Africa Division of Human Rights Watch.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/06/1451234

[Cocoa]

25. the "Zionists" have turned against Sharon

see Pat Robertson.

[Colorado Blue]

37. Ummm.

Speaking to you as a fellow DU'er, lifetime leftie, proud American Citizen, AND ZIONIST, I think you're a little misguided as to the meaning of what you are saying.

Zion is a Hebrew term for Jerusalem, the center for thousands of years, of Jewish tradition, occasionally temporal and always, spiritual power. It is our home and has been a majority Jewish city for thousands of years.

"Zionism" is a wildly misconstrued and misued term. It has been deliberately used, in antisemitic literature like "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", an invention cooked up by the Russians, but widely believed to be fact and distributed world-wide, including by our own Henry Ford, and widely throughout the Middle East, to foster antisemitism.

In fact, the core meaning of Zionism means respect for the right of Jews to self-determination in our ancient homeland, with Jerusalem as the eternal capital. There are many types of Zionists, labor, religious, mystical, etc, and some do believe the West Bank should be part of Israel because of historic and continuous Jewish occupation there, others because of security reasons. Most of us believe the land should be shared with the Palestinians, although it should be pointed out that Jordan is 78% of the "Palestine Mandate" and is 70% Palestinian. Israel itself is very tiny, smaller than Lake Erie, and that really all we dread Zionists want.

Be that as it may, the center of Jewish spiritual life, for thousands of years, has been Zion, and being "anti-zion" also means you don't believe in the rights of the Jewish people to live in peace in our historic and actual homeland, Israel. So there is more than a small element of antisemitism reflected in comments like yours, whether intentional or not.

Now, think about that and also whether you think you are being spoken to by a "sick bastard."

[sweetm2475]

40. ummm....

First

Adherents of Zionism believed that the Jewish people had an inherent and inalienable right to Palestine. Religious Zionists stated this in biblical terms, referring to the divine promise of the land to the tribes of Israel. Secular Zionists relied more on the argument that Palestine alone could solve the problem of Jewish dispersion and virulent anti-Semitism. Weizmann stated in 1930 that the needs of 16 million Jews had to be balanced against those of 1 million Palestinian Arabs: "The Balfour Declaration and the Mandate have definitely lifted out of the context of the Middle East and linked it up with the world-wide Jewish problem....The rights which the Jewish people has been adjudged in Palestine do not depend on the consent, and cannot be subjected to the will, of the majority of its present inhabitants."

Second

Zionists generally felt that European civilization was superior to Arab culture and values. Theodor Herzl, the founder of the World Zionist Organization, wrote in the Jewish State (1886) that the Jewish community could serve as: "part of a wall of defense for Europe in Asia, an outpost of civilization against barbarism."

Third

Zionist leaders recognized that they needed an external patron to legitimize their presence in the international arena and to provide them legal and military protection in Palestine. Great Britain played that role in the 1920s and 1930s, and the United States became the mentor in the mid-1940s. Zionist leaders realized that they needed to make tactical accommodations to that patron—such as downplaying their public statements about their political aspirations or accepting a state on a limited territory—while continuing to work toward their long-term goals. The presence and needs of the Arabs were viewed as secondary. The Zionist leadership never considered allying with the Arab world against the British and Americans. Rather, Weizmann, in particular, felt that the yishuv should bolster the British Empire and guard its strategic interests in the region. Later, the leaders of Israel perceived the Jewish state as a strategic asset to the United States in the Middle East.

Fourth

Zionist politicians accepted the idea of an Arab nation but rejected the concept of a Palestinian nation. They considered the Arab residents of Palestine as comprising a minute fraction of the land and people of the Arab world, and as lacking any separate identity and aspirations (click here, to read our response to this myth). Weizmann and Ben-Gurion were willing to negotiate with Arab rulers in order to gain those rulers' recognition of Jewish statehood in Palestine in return for the Zionists' recognition of Arab independence elsewhere, but they would not negotiate with the Arab politicians in Palestine for a political settlement in their common homeland. As early as 1918, Weizmann wrote to a prominent British politician: "The real Arab movement is developing in Damascus and Mecca...the so-called Arab question in Palestine would therefore assume only a purely local character, and in fact is not considered a serious factor."

http://www.wrmea.com/html/focus.htm



i guess if i don't believe israel should take what they want because they are superior, then that makes me a racist? well so be it. if you had read ANYTHING else i had written, you would see, all i want for everyone involved is for the killing to end. touting right wingers as "speaking for the best interests of israel" to me looks the same as saying christian fundies speak for the whole country. but let me guess, when we are talking about them, we're not being bigots, right? get over yourself. BTW, everything i learned about ANY of this, i learned from my BEST FRIEND who is an israeli, jewish, and still has family in Israel, and hates what the right wingers are doing to his country and calls them "ZIONISTS" so once again, i say, get over yourself

[sweetm2475]

43. Spielberg's friends become enemies

Sunday, January 1, 2006

By ROGER EBERT
UNIVERSAL PRESS SYNDICATE



"I knew the minefield was there," says Steven Spielberg, describing the storm of controversy over his new film, "Munich." He has been attacked on three fronts, for being anti-Israeli, being anti-Palestinian and being neither - which is, those critics say, the sin of "moral equivalency."

"I wasn't naive in accepting this challenge," he says about his film, which begins with the kidnapping and murder of 11 Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympiad and follows a secret Israeli team assigned by Prime Minister Golda Meir to hunt down those responsible and assassinate them.

"I knew I was going to be losing friends when I took on the subject," he said during a recent telephone conversation. "I am also making new friends."

In his film, a character named Avner, played by Eric Bana, heads the assassination squad and begins to question the morality and utility of his actions. Others in the film articulate a defense of the strategy of revenge. Spielberg says that his film deliberately supplies no simple answers.


http://www.bergen.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk3JmZnYmVsN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2ODQ4MDQ2

Spielberg must be a racist too, right?

[Coastie for Truth]

44. Listen up

Zionism goes back to the Babylonian captivity and to the Book of Daniel and to the expulsion of many of the Jews and Christians in 70 AD (see, e.g. Josephus).

Zionism is part of the Jewish liturgy - Hashanah b'Yerushalayim. - Next year in Jerusalem.

You posted

They are sick bastards who would happily sacrifice any country in the world INCLUDING the U.S. if they felt it was necessary.

I am a veteran, my father and all of his brothers were veterans, all of my mother's brothers were veterans. I have served the United States of America honorably. My father and his brothers have served the United States of Ameirca honorably. All of my mother's brothers have defended this United States of America honorably. My cousin Phil (first cousin, like an older brother to me) was KIA in VietNam.

I AM AN AMERICAN - AND I AM JEWISH - WHICH DOESN'T DETRACT FROM BEING AN AMERICAN - AND IN MY YANKEE DOODLE DANDY, RED, WHITE AND BLUE, DD-214 OPINION, YOUR APPEND IS MAKING NOISES LIKE AN ANTI-SEMITE

[undergroundrailroad]

45. Incoming from GD.

Does not conform to posting guidelines in I/P. Contains pictures.


Undergroundrailroad
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