Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood chief: We don't recognize Israel, but won't fig

[Behind the Aegis]

CAIRO - The leader of the outlawed Muslim Brotherhood on Sunday, buoyed by an unexpectedly strong showing in parliamentary elections, credited public mistrust, frustration and anger with President Hosni Mubarak's regime for the Islamic group's fivefold increase in parliamentary seats with one round of voting still to go.

In an interview with the Associated Press, Mohammed Mehdi Akef also sought to allay Western concerns about the organization's newfound strength, saying it would not try to change Egypt's foreign policy, including its peace treaty with Israel.

"We do not recognize Israel, but we will not fight it. We will respect all the treaties (which Egypt signed with Israel)," said Akef, whose organization is considered the mother group for many Islamic fundamentalist movements such as the militant Palestinian Hamas.

Asked if the organization would try to prevent Hamas from making peace with Israel, Akef said: "We have nothing to do with Palestinian internal politics," he said.

...more... http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/650549.html

[Englander]

1. Question -

I've seen the Muslim Brotherhood described as, quote, a 'charity
organisation', do you think that this is a correct description?
I don't, I think it's only a partial view of the group.

[Behind the Aegis]

2. If...

...by charity they mean "suppliers of Jew hating dogma" and "bombs."

[Englander]

3. Is that a no?

I can provide the link, where the MB were called a 'charity
organisation', it was related to a thread about the origins of
Hamas - it was clear *why* the Mb were called such a group,
because the Israeli authorities at the time provided support
to the Mb in Gaza, & the description was an attempt to rewrite
history, to claim that the GOI were only helping a 'charity
organisation', not radical Islamists intent on the destruction
of Israel. I just thought it would be relevant to add that to the
discussion, that some folks were happy to describe the Mb as a
'charity organisation'. :)

[Behind the Aegis]

4. Incarnations

In one of its many incarnations, I sure it has been labeled a 'charity.' Especially, with the origins of Hamas, which was started out as a refugee support group used to upset the balance of the PLO. However, like many things, it too evolved into its current incarnation of a terrorist organization.

It does make wonder, was the IRA ever a charity group?

[Englander]

5. Really?

I've not heard that theory before, can you provide some evidence, can
you provide some historical context to support that view, that they
'evolved' from, appartently, hippies? The Mb were always radical
Islamists, weren't they? Hamas were always radical Islamists, weren't
they? I've never heard any credible witness describe them as exclusively
a 'refugee support group'.

--It does make wonder, was the IRA ever a charity group?--

Irrelevant, red herring.

[Behind the Aegis]

6. Do your own research.

You don't even have to go very far. There are links here at DU that show that Hamas started out as a "peace" group interested in helping Palestinian "refugees."

The IRA was only comprised of "freedom fighters."

[Englander]

7. Quoi?

I have no idea what yer talking about, here, so here's a picture;

[Colorado Blue]

15. Awwwwww. He's really cute:)

[eyl]

8. Prior to the mid-80's

Hamas (its predecessor, rather) focused on social issues, mainly staying out of politics.

The proponents of <Islamic Jihad's violent> approach envisioned the mobilization of Islam in the liberation of Palestine. Until 1987, however, the mainstream of the Palestinian MB followed the universal, normative approach to the issue of Jihad. The representative of this approach was The Islamic Association (al-mujamma' al-islami) which, since its establishment in 1979, constituted the MB's main organization the Gaza Strip. The Mujamma', defined its goals sheerly in terms of individual acommunal work in the fields of preaching and education, health care, charity and social welfare in the spirit of Islamic moral tradition.

That the Mujamma' continued to focus on reformist approach of Islamic action from bottom up was due to Israel's tacit consent to Islamic education, preaching and establishment of social and religious infrastructure. Apparently, the Israeli authorities perceived this brand of Islamic activity as harmless and a potential for balancing the nationalist militant movements under the PLO's umbrella. Thus, whereas the Islamic Jihad adopted unequivocal Palestinian nationalist affiliation, the Mujamma' claimed allegiance to an abstract Islamic identity, blurring the boundaries between state (dawla) and Islamic nation (umma), and to the "great religion" (al-din al-'azim) and its written law--the Qur'an

http://ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=11>

[Englander]

9. Where's the link?

I'd like to see the source, & context, please.

~~ Nevermind, I've found it, I think;

'Hamas: A Behavioral Profile
Roots and Perceptions
Hamas' origins have been rooted in the Muslim Brotherhood Society (MB) (jama'at al-ikhwan al-muslimin) in the Gaza Strip and more specifically, in its main embodiment since the late 1970s - al-Mujamma' al-Islami. Under the Egyptian military government in the Gaza Strip (1948-1967), the MB activity was tolerated or repressed along with the policy conducted against the MB in Egypt itself. Thus, following the ban on the MB in Egypt in early 1949, the MB branch in Gaza was reshaped into a religious-educational center under the title Unification Association (jam'iyyat al-tawhid). During the short-lived honeymoon of relations between the Free Officers regime and the MB (1952-1954) the MB in the Strip prospered, attracting many young Palestinians in the refugee camps as well as in Egyptian universities. Yet the new, and long-standing, ban on the MB in Egypt in 1954 - following a MB attempt on Nasir's life--determined the hostile nature of relationship between the Nasirist regime and the MB, leading to the adoption of systematic repression against its leading members in the Gaza Strip as well. This forced the MB in the Strip to assume secret and discrete activity which, along with the pressure of the Arab nationalist wave in the early 1960s, led to the disintegration of the association. Nasir's harsh policy against the MB in Egypt reached the zenith in the aftermath of the coup d'etat attempt in 1965, which led to the arrest of thousands of the association's activists in Egypt, among whom was Ahmad Yasin, later the founder of Hamas.1

The origins of Islamic awakening in historic Palestine were not different from other countries in the Middle East which, since the late 1960s, has demonstrated itself as the most significant ideological, social, and political trend. Contemporary Islamic movements share the ideal of the Prophet's Muslim society, a religious and political community with the shari'a (the Islamic Law) as its sole source of law as well as the norm for individual behavior. Only the boundaries of the community of the faithful (umma) determine the boundaries of political power with no territorial definition for the Islamic state which is to be universal. Yet under this umbrella, mainstream Islamists have assumed typical national character, acquiescing in the existing international order of states and restricting their activity within state boundaries.2 Furthermore, modern radical Islam is highly fragmented within states, represented by political groups, movements, and formal parties that differ in their ideological zealotry, political platform, means, and relations with the ruling elite. Olivier Roy discerned two poles of Islamic thought which had marked contemporary Islamic movements in the 20th century: a revolutionary pole, for whom Islamization of the society is attained through state power, and a reformist pole for whom the advent of the Islamic state is the result of social and political action from bottom up aimed primarily to re-Islamize the society (neofundamentalism).3

One may assume that under the unique circumstances of Jewish domination in Palestine and military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Palestinian Islamists would be decisively inclined toward revolutionary political Islam. In reality, however, the MB in the occupied territories oscillated between two main attitudes and strategies of action concerning nationalist vis-a-vis all-Islamic priorities. As of the early 1980s, the Palestinian Islamist spectrum was defined, on the activist-nationalist end, by the Islamic Jihad Movement (harakat al-jihad al-islami) whose main thrust was "armed struggle now" for the liberation of Palestine in its entirety.

The proponents of this approach envisioned the mobilization of Islam in the liberation of Palestine. Until 1987, however, the mainstream of the Palestinian MB followed the universal, normative approach to the issue of Jihad. The representative of this approach was The Islamic Association (al-mujamma' al-islami) which, since its establishment in 1979, constituted the MB's main organization the Gaza Strip. The Mujamma', defined its goals sheerly in terms of individual acommunal work in the fields of preaching and education, health care, charity and social welfare in the spirit of Islamic moral tradition.4

Notes
1. Ziad Abu-Amr, Islamic Fundamentalism in the West Bank and Gaza, Bloomington, Indiana University Press, 1994, p. 9.

2. See, for example, Hassan A. Turabi, "Islam as a Pan-National Movement", RSA Journal, August-September, 1992, pp. 608-619.

3. Olivier Roy, The Failure of Political Islam, Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press, 1994, pp. 24, 77-80.

4. Request for registration of Jam'iyyat Jawrat al-Shams al-Islamiyya (later known as al-Mujamma' al-islami) by Ya'qub 'Uthman Quayq to the Civil Administration, August 4, 1977.

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=11#roots

Thanks for that, eyl, I'll bookmark that & read the rest of it
later. :)

[eyl]

10. Oops

yeah, that's the one

(that's what I get for posting in a hurry)

[Lithos]

11. Yes, a connection

The IRA is an excellent analogy for Hamas.

First, the main group you should concern yourself with is not the IRA, which is only one component, but the over-arching group which is the Irish Republicans. Components of which include the political wing, Sinn Fein, the militant wing better known as the IRA, and a charitable group known as the Irish Northern Aid Committee.

In their desire for political power, the Irish Republicans recognized that if they stayed on the military path, they might win the battle, but loose the war which then prompted the increased emphasis on politics over terrorism. Not to say that this connection is entirely broke, but for the most part the IRA has moved to the background and is increasingly becoming less and less important.

Perhaps the same might be said for Hamas in some future period. Perhaps not, but in the end, the precedent has already been set for movement to a political path by (even if the politics remain extremist and there are some suggestions of shady behavior) a terrorist group.

L-

[Englander]

12. Was that the intention?

If that was the intention, to make an 'excellent analogy', then, I
suggest, the op should have mentioned Sinn Fein, or Noraid, instead of
a throwaway comment about the Ira. Suggesting, to a British poster, that
the Ira is a charity group, in such a manner, carries clear connotations
that may not be obvious to US posters. I would suggest that if the op
would like to understand those connotations, they repeat the exercise
here;

Country: United Kingdom
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=191

or here;

Irish Affairs Group
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=298

Some informative links;

Frontline : Behind the mask The IRA & SinnFein
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/

Provisional IRA : War, ceasefire, endgame?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/northern_ireland/2001/provisional_ira/

[Lithos]

13. You answered your own question

The OP's question was whether the IRA had roots outside of terrorism before it became a terroristic group.

The answer is yes, in this case a political one - Sinn Fein came first. And while there was an IRA group prior to the 1970's, it was mostly defunct and effectively arose anew following the late 1960 demonstrations.

Sinn Fein has effectively been called Ireland's National Socialistic party. That is another point where they do bear some more similarity to Hamas.

As for the other groups, I'm afraid the real history of the IRA and associated groups is not as well understood in the US as England.

The links you provided are quite good, I suggest people read them. I found the PBS one myself earlier while researching things to make sure I didn't get a fact grossly wrong.

L-

[Englander]

14. That was not my intention.

Since my answer to the oq is no. I do not consider that the Ira was
'ever a charity group', & I remain unconvinced that the intention was
to draw a relevant analogy. Of course, if Noraid or Sinn Fein were
mentioned, there'd be a greater chance of my being persuaded, or of even
realising what the terms used refer to - since the discussion was partly
historical, 'Ira' could mean anything, from the Michael Collins-era
onwards. I consider that the Pira has always been a paramilitary group,
it was formed out of the older Ira, which is linked to Sinn Fein-the Irish
nationalists wisely try to keep a distinction between the political & the
military wings of the nationalist groups. There are, no doubt, members of
Sinn Fein in Pira, & vice versa, but Sinn Fein is not the Pira, & vice versa.

Anyway, this is a difficult subject for me to discuss, the subject
of Ulster, & Britain's historic relations, for various reasons, & if
any points I've raised are considered objective, or even, if I'm able to
be an objective witness on this subject, that's a bonus.

[Lithos]

16. Your knowledge is excellent

And your points are well made, especially the two issues of what period (pre/post Michael Collins for instance) and the need to ask for a specific meaning of what exactly was being discussed when the phrase IRA is being used, ie. if you mean the larger umbrella of sister organizations.

[pelsar]

18. i believe the complexity is understood...

note: i know very little of the history of the IRA, Sinn Fein, but found the info interesting:

but i believe the point is the complexity of an illegal organization(s) with multiple aspects, be it political/military/national/religious. Where they start and how they "morph" during the years of their influence and or lack of influence is quite difficult to map, let alone attempt to predict their future.

I have no doubt that the various aspects of the hamas can be found in previous and probably present "IRA" groups or for that matter, in the Irgun, etc.

Where and how will the Hamas will characterize itself once in govt is simply impossible to say: the latest info from Qaqillya where they are running the municipality is that economically they have straightened out the "non existant books", removed corruption....place in some religious laws, but not too many....

[6th Borough]

17. Wasn't this the group behind the assassination of Anwar Sadat?

...correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Egyptian Islamic Jihad (and subsequently, the Islamic Jihad currently operating in the PLA territories) an offshoot if the Muslim Brotherhood?

Either they've had a change of heart (and/or leadership) or they have no difficulty in making declaring intentions 180 degrees from their true philosophy.

Hell, after all these years, maybe I can give them the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps they are (I'm not speaking cynically here) more concerned with the state of affairs within Egypt (authoritarian rule, massive unemployment, coupled w/ having the largest population in the Arab world by a long shot and yet falling so far from prominence since the days of Nasser, the liberation of the Suez...even having puppet states of their own; the superpower of the Arab world, so to speak).