London mayor: Israel caused bloodshed

[Scurrilous]

In interview with British Jewish website, Ken Livingstone answers critics on range of issues, from his clashes with Board of Deputies of British Jews to his views on Israel; says, ‘I think Zionism is like every other form of nationalism. It can be inspiring or it can have a dark side; it’s perfectly valid to question creation of Israel

<snip>

"For the Jewish community, he has been labeled anti Semitic and anti-Israel by his critics.

In a frank and revealing interview with SomethingJewish.co.uk editor Leslie Bunder, Livingstone answers his critics on a range of issues and topics from his clashes with the Board of Deputies of British Jews to his views on Israel. He also talks about his childhood and his possible Jewish roots."

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[papau]

1. The dark side of the creation of Brittan - time to free Scotland, Wales,

Northern Ireland,

Indeed the city state rule of the 6th century post Roman was the ideal and killing folk so we could return to that makes a lot of sense. Besides I miss the dozen Kings that the Island once had at one time.

[400Years]

2. There are lots of anti-zionist Jews

I know jewish people here in the U.S. that are not so keen on the rampant nationalism.

There are also some in Isreal:

http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Demonstrations/April1705Regavim.cfm

[papau]

3. True - indeed in the 40's that was a major split - and in NY/NJ there is

still a split.

I was just laughing at the wording of the piece - the "dark side" of political change - as if the Brits have not had a bit of political change over the years!

:-)

[Coastie for Truth]

4. Neturei Karta

Do you really know them. They have an "End of Days" theology that is kind of a Jewish version of the Book of Revelations - where the State of Israel will be re-established by the hand of G-d through a corporeal Messiah at the "End of Days" - and will extend from the the Mediterranean to Iran.

At one time they sought Jordanian citizenship - and wanted to camp out in Amman until the Messiah personally came for them.

You might also want to check out the Birobidzhan Movement. and The wikipedia article . A very interesting footnote - except that my grand father was a "Birobidzhan fan" - and I went to a sleep away camp during the summers of my pre-teen years that was sponsored by a US affiliate of the Birobidzhan Movement (the US affiliate disappeared with the rise of Senator McCarthy - see the movie Good Night and Good Luck, and the execution of the Rosenbergs)

[papau]

5. Thanks for the info - I knew only a bit about them from friends and a few

history books.

I was surprised to find out how anti the establishment of the State of Israel those folks were. To be anti is one thing, but to take such loud positions is another.

Of course the DUer "400Years" - I think - is thinking of the reform/secular parts of the Jewish spectrum that would be quite happy with a secular Arab state where Israel now is if it was safe for Jews.

At least the proportion of the reform congregations and the proportion of the secular that feel this way are not violently anti-Israel, the way the 6000 members of the Orthodox sect within a sect called Neturei Karta are as they go for the propagation and clarification of Torah Judaism - clarified into the correct version of Torah Judaism of course!.

[pelsar]

6. papua...no we wouldnt be 'happy"...

to put it blunt....we simply dont trust at this point in time such a thing as a "secular arab state".....and it being "safe for the jews"....what your saying is that us secular jews would be willing, once again, to put our safety in the hands of others.

your oh so very very wrong. Whereas we may not be thrilled with the religious kooks, their outlook on life, the power the messianic jews and others have within our govt...there is no way we would prefer a "secular arab state that would "protect its jews".

we've "been there" and its not a pretty sight. Us secular jews, if you dont mind, have every intention of protecting ourselves with our own means and have no intention of giving it up to anyone else.

[papau]

7. "you" sound like most of my secular Jewish friends - but there are a few

that claim Arab states are fair to Jews - despite the Iraq example and the forced Diaspora that was done in the 60's.

I am surprised at the strength of the objection to Israel by the Orthodox who believe the Torah forbids the establishment of Israel.

Israel and the Torah are one of those topics best not discussed at social occasions.

[pelsar]

9. neutra karta...

those jews who are in essence anti israel, also aid our enemies (pics of the "head rabbi with arafat over the years)...so its more than just not approving of the idea of israel, its actively joining in with those who are killing israelis.

as far as other jews who wouldnt mind living under a "secular arab country"...(that has yet to exist)...i've never met one. Those that have lived in arab countries....dont have fond memories of their lives there.

[Coastie for Truth]

10. Actually - before the Christians mucked things up

with their Crusades (they killed Jews too) and their Inquisitions (they expelled and killed Jews too) - - and before the battle of Vienna - when the Islamic World was "The World" (see Maria Menocal, The Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Jews, and Christians Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain) things were not that bad. That was the Age of Rambam.

[papau]

11. Could the reason have been the Muslims were a minority in the countries

they had conquered?

It took quite few hundreds of years before the populations in muslim controlled nations became majority Muslim - and even more time before those nations were overwhelmingly Muslim.

But then forcing non-Muslim's off the path and into the street or the other side of the road, with the usual restrictions on behavior and abode, was not the real conversion force. That force was the fact that only the non-Muslim paid the non-muslim income tax (granted the tax was low single digit percentage of income - I forget exactly but 2% sounds about right).

After a while non-Muslim folks felt that was a downer and converted.

[eyl]

12. Check out the Rambam's

Epistle to the Jews of Yemen - he had some very harsh things to say of Islam there (IIRC, it was after particularly severe pesecution of Jews in Yemen)

[papau]

13. I like our Spanish Jew Rambam's (Maimonides') letter of 1174 to Yemen

The revolt against Saladin as sultan, the extremist Shiite Muslim, the persecution of the Yemeni Jews, and the "compromise?" of a "prophet" preaching a syncrectic religion that combined Judaism and Islam, and Maimonides' reaction to that "prophet" as shown in his letter are all of great interest, as was Maimonides' successful intercession with Saladin of Egypt that appears to have ended the persecution.

I like the comparison of Rambam's letter to the letters from Paul as Paul in effect said the same thing as Paul tried to interpret scriptures while offering hope to his fellow followers of Jesus.

Indeed I like the integration of faith and reason that Rambam said was necessary to understand God.

I did not like Rambam's saying that Muslims and Christians were impostors, but then I did like in the "Laws of Kings" his implying having these "impostors" around would help pave the way for a monotheistic understanding amongst the nations of the world.

I guess the rejection of conversion as the only path to God is what I like best about Rambam - the Noahide laws provided for the salvation of non-Jews ....in his Misheh Torah Melakim (18.2): "Any man who accepts the seven commandments and is meticulous in observing them is thereby one of the righteous of the nations of the world, and he has a portion in the world to come."

As a Christian I reject Paul's view and go with Rambam. Does that make me a Christian Jew, or a Jew for Christ , or just confused???

:toast:

:-)

[Jim Sagle]

14. Vicious, self-hating website.

"Jews against Zionism" is like "Chickens for Colonel Sanders."

[Colorado Blue]

8. Always SO glad to hear from dear Mayor Livingston. eom

[barb162]

15. "... I said the Saudi royal family should be hanging from lampposts"

Alfred E. Newman style diplomacy