Bush against Israel

[garthranzz]

I have a friend (actually more than one with this position) who believes that Bush, er, shrubbie, is the best thing that's ever happened to Israel. He thinks that its security, etc., have been enhanced by Bush's actions. Understand that we both oppose a palestinian state. So I'm looking for a "biased", pro-Israel perspective - facts from the Israeli position that prove Bush has betrayed Israel and endangered it. (Things like more Israelis have died in the intifada since he came to office, etc.)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. Why Do You Oppose A Palestinian State?

Most Israelis and American Jews favor one....

[Solly Mack]

2. That's my question too

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. Yeah...

And even Bush* wants one....


The devil is in the details...

[garthranzz]

6. Another time

I'll discuss the reasons. Right now, I just want the information. Shrub is so bad, that I think even those who support him for "issue" reasons should have the facts.

[wuushew]

4. Well I fail to see what good completely refusing to talk to Arafat did

While many here may believe that positive outcomes with Arafat were remote any peace process was by definition impossible while Israel and the United States cut him out of the process.

Also the timing of his death was pure happenstance, the self evident failure of the Bush policy could have continued for many years in such a state.

[leesa]

5. I certainly know more Palestinians have died at the hands of Israelis

since Bush came to power. Of course our soldiers are dying for Israel's security...what else is new?

[garthranzz]

7. That's the kind of myth

I'm trying to refute. Can we stay out of the polemics and just answer my question? If you can't, please don't reply. I don't want this to be a debate about the Israeli/Palestinian issue, just sources and facts why Bush is bad for Israel. If you can't help with that, then just ignore the request.

[jsamuel]

8. your not asking why Bush is bad for Isreal, but why Bush is good for a Pal

state


Those are two different questions to many people and exactly why you are having trouble getting an answer.

[garthranzz]

12. No, I'm asking why Bush is bad for Israel. Period.

If "being good for a "pal state" is equivalent to being bad for Israel (if it's a zero sum game), so be it. But that's not my question. It can be answered even in the context of those who want a "pal state".

[jsamuel]

15. ok ./

[thebigidea]

17. why bother asking questions if you only want specific answers?

this is a discussion board, isn't it? Apparently, people have different opinions and would like to discuss them. Strange, I know. But these things happen.

[garthranzz]

23. Huh?

I think there's a difference between a discussion and asking a question. For example, if I ask, "Why do you oppose gun control?" I'm asking for your reasons, principles, opinions, etc. If I say, "I think the 2nd Amendment intends to protect state militias, not the right of individual to own machine guns," that's an invitation to a discussion. But if I ask, "how many people were killed by handguns in the last five years, and of those, how many were killed by citizens protecting themselves from a crime?" - that's a request for facts. And so is a question like, "how many times did John Kerry's vote on a gun bill match the NRA's recommendation." If you then answer to either of the last two, "Why, are you a gun nut?" or "Guns don't kill people..." or "with some opinion about Kerry, my question doesn't get answered.

I don't mind discussing the Israel/Palestine issue or rather, Israe/Arab/Western-Christian issue, but I don't want to do so now. I was just looking for some facts to undermine someone else's blind support of Bush.

And hoping that wasn't too much to ask.

[alfredo]

9. Iraq. The Muslim world believes bush invaded Iraq in part

at the insistence of Israel, that we are their proxy.

This point has been brought up numerous times. As far as specific sources, I can't supply them.

[Coastie for Truth]

19. Do You Want The Truth - You Can't Take the Truth

You posted:

"Iraq. The Muslim world believes bush invaded Iraq in part" at the insistence of Israel, that we are their proxy.

This point has been brought up numerous times. As far as specific sources, I can't supply them.

You can't supply them because the real reason is
OIL

It's like Jack Nicholson said to Tom Cruse in A Few Good Men:

(Jack Nicholson) Jessep: You want answers?

(Tom Cruse) Kaffee: I think I'm entitled to them.

Jessep: You want answers?

Kaffee: I want the truth!

Jessep: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...

You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!

Follow these Links:


*

*

*

You don't want the truth because deep down in your heart of hearts you know it is:

* America's gluttony for SUV's driven by big butt suburban soccer moms taking spoiled kiddos to soccer games.

* The fear ever since 1980 with Ronald "It's Morning In America" Reagan's roll back of Jimmy Carter's Energy Program that Corporate Average Fuel Economy is the sancrosanct Third Rail of American Politics.

- The folk wisdom that SUV's are necessary to keep GM and Ford out of "Junk Bond" Status.

- The folk wisdom that SUV's are necessary to enable GM and Ford and Chrysler to pay pensions, retiree health benefits, and active employee health benefits.

- The folk wisdom that SUV's are necessary to keep Delphia out of Chapter XI.


* The "folk knowledge" that "we" will never run out of oil.

To paraphrase Jack Nicholson "You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that demands more oil then we really need -- and we are running out of oil -- and the PNAC idea is to "protect our oil" by using American kids with guns."

[wuushew]

10. Well Bush is busy selling plenty of weapon systems to the Saudis

....The agency also informed lawmakers of a contract worth as much as $401 million to supply data link terminals to increase the effectiveness of Saudi fighter pilots by providing at-a-glance representation of the battlefield.

Data Link Solutions, a joint venture of BAE Systems Plc and Rockwell Collins Inc., was named as the prime contractor for these terminals.

Congress was also alerted to a contract worth up to $760 million to continue providing support service for a range of Saudi military aircraft, associated engines and missiles. The agency did not name a specific contractor for this work.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/03/AR2005100301935.html

[garthranzz]

11. Thanks! That's the kind of facts I'm looking for.

The Saudi connection with anti-Israel terror is well known.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[garthranzz]

14. fallacious, since Israel never was popular

[Englander]

18. "Fallacious"? Oh my!

It wasn't always like this, y'know. The Guardian UK newspaper, when
it was known as The Manchester Guardian, used to love Israel, &
were 'ardently philo-semitic'.
___________________


"What became of Zion?

Bryan Cheyette assesses Daphna Baram's study of the Guardian's reporting of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Disenchantment

Saturday July 24, 2004
The Guardian

Disenchantment: The Guardian and Israel
by Daphna Baram
296pp, Guardian, £17.99

>snip

Daphna Baram, a young Israeli journalist, has been commissioned to answer the charges of anti-semitism and anti-Zionism (not the same thing) and she traces the paper back to its radical Quaker roots. CP Scott, who ran the Manchester Guardian for more than half a century from 1872, set the tone with his ardent philo-semitism. A chance meeting with the prominent Manchester-based Zionist, Chaim Weizmann, led Scott to help instigate the Balfour declaration of 1917. This triumph of British imperial double-speak promised both a "national homeland for the Jewish people" in Palestine and the maintenance of the "civil and political rights" of the "communities" in the area. The Jews of eastern Europe, migrating to western Europe and the US, were rightly regarded by Scott as a persecuted minority who needed protecting. His dream was that Palestine would become an "Asiastic Belgium in the hands of the Jews".

Later editors were equally philo-semitic. As early as 1934, WP Crozier helped to expose the true nature of Nazi concentration camps in contrast to the supporters of appeasement. By 1942, the paper was warning that Hitler "aims literally at the extermination of the Jews in Europe so far as his hand can reach them". After the war, AP Wadsworth remained reluctantly pro-Zionist - even after the 1946 Irgun bombing of the British military headquarters in the King David Hotel that killed more than 90. With the hanging of two British sergeants in 1947, causing anti-Jewish riots in some British cities, he called for British troops to leave Palestine. At the same time, he continued to view the illegal infiltration by refugees from Nazism into Palestine as heroic and just. With the Suez crisis of 1956, and the six-day war of 1967, Israel could no longer be regarded as a country made up of passive victims in need of the Guardian's liberal embrace.

As a student of Avi Shlaim, the exemplary revisionist historian, Baram is well-equipped to understand the realities of Israeli military power in these conflicts. But her potted histories of these wars are sometimes one-eyed. Israel, even in 1947, can only ever be seen, from her contemporary perspective, as the dominant regional power. The problem for Baram, with her acknowledged Israeli "bias", is that she has something of a tin ear when it comes to the experiences of Jews as a minority in the diaspora.

The "disenchantment" of the Guardian is largely due to the limits of its liberal philo-semitism once Jews could no longer be loved primarily for their victimhood. When it became clear, after 1967, that the creation of Israel had given rise to another set of victims, the Palestinians, Jews could no longer be unequivocally embraced. By the time of the Lebanon war of 1982, and the Sabra and Shatila massacre in Beirut that killed nearly 2,000, Israel was well on the way to achieving its current dubious status as the pariah state of the left. The rise and rise of the radical right in Israel, embodied by Menachem Begin and Ariel Sharon, simply reinforced this perception. But the often-expressed expectation (in the Guardian's letters pages) that Jews should behave differently because of their suffering exposes the weakness of such moralising. Persecution, it seems, is meant to lead to better human beings.

Baram's detailed interviews with most of the key Guardian players in relation to Israel since the 1970s are what make the book fascinating and worthwhile. There are many colourful stories: Arthur Koestler's coverage of the internal military conflict in Israel just after the formation of the state; Martha Gellhorn's extended reports after her famous stint in Vietnam; Eric Silver and David Hirst coming to blows in the American Colony Hotel in east Jerusalem"

http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1267256,00.html

[Coastie for Truth]

20. Have an "Asia-Pacific branded" Nestles Crunch Bar on me Mate.

[Englander]

22. Bite me. n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

16. One of your "tag" lines says it all.

You quote Dennis Kucinich: "Indifference is a weapon of mass destruction." That is EXACTLY what Shrub has shown for Israel, indifference. The words are there, but the actions are sorely lacking! He has NO interest in the peace process, it is nothing more than a 'distraction' to him and his misAdministration. His advisor's speak out of both sides of their mouths, as does he. He pretends to be an ally to Israel, but is not.

His illegal war in Iraq is disastrous on many levels, but Hussein was NO threat to Israel and most Israelis will tell you that. The only ones that saw him as a threat were members of Israel's right-wing party. His illegal war also provided ammunition for the anti-Israeli group and the anti-Semitic groups. You can see that in this thread and many others here at DU and other "progressive" sites. "The Jews/Israelis" did it!" Israel's government no more represents all Israelis than Shrub's administration represents all of us!

He has also created great discord in Lebanon, the northern neighbor of Israel. Considering Israel is trying to un-occupy the territories of 1967, they really DON'T need shit from Lebanon.

Now, he is creating disharmony in Syria! Israel and Syria are still officially at war, but it is "on the back-burner." Israel doesn't need an unstable Syria. However, Shrub doesn't care. He is all about OIL! Because who will be the first ones attacked by any of these nations...ISRAEL! The "good" thing about it, no one will care or even feel sympathy, it will be blamed on Israel's "control" of the US media and government. Shrub has set up Israel as its "fall guy."

Most American Jews have NO love or support for Shrub! They know he and his cabal have NO interest in Israel, except as a 'fall guy' and friendly port. Most Israelis I know also think Shrub is bad for Israel and the US.

Although this is for another thread, a free Palestinian state is a GOOD thing, not only for Palestinians, but for Israelis! It does need to be a stable state, but it is needed for peace in Israel.

[Coastie for Truth]

21. He does have an interest in Israel

for the "Ingathering of the Exiles" (and their subsequent "conversion") as a pre-condition to the Second Coming as foretold in the Book of Revelations.

Period. That's it.

William Kristol is a dupe of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and Franklyn Graham and Gary Bauer and Ralph Reed and James Dobson.

[garthranzz]

24. Ah, but then that is not in Israel's interest

is it? I mean, if someone becomes your friend in order to destroy you, he's not really your friend.

For what happens if Israel openly rejects the theological conditions for the aid?

This is an interesting line of thought. For Robertson, et.al., are imho very dangerous people. Even for non-Jews.

Thanks.

[pelsar]

26. the reality is that....the jury is still out

the events of today..be they in iraq or be they in israel or in egypt will have their repucussions in the coming years. The 15yr old kids of today..their views which are now being fashioned, much via bush, are the leaders of tomorrow. It is they who will be able to tell us if Bushes actions were wise or foolish.

In the short run, whatever he did and how it affected everybody else down the line, in terms of israel, i think it was good.

It got us out of Gaza, cleared up who "owns israel (the state or messianic rabbis) its now made it clear to the PA what their responsabilities are, and there is no more confusion what we can and cannot do if they dont make a peaceful society out of gaza.......

[barb162]

25. Bush on Israel: Heartburn for All

Bush on Israel: Heartburn for All
by Daniel Pipes
New York Post
March 4, 2003


Consistency and predictability are core strengths of George W. Bush as a politician. Be the issue domestic (taxes, education) or foreign (terrorism, Iraq), once he settles on a policy he sticks with it. There is no ambiguity, no guessing what his real position might be, no despair at interpreting contradictions. Even his detractors never complain about "Tricky George" or "Slick Bush."

But there is one exception to this pattern. And - couldn't you have predicted it? - the topic is the Arab-Israeli conflict. Here, Bush not only seems unable to make up his mind, but he oscillates between two quite contrary views.

For example, at the height of the Palestinian assault against Israel last April, the president delivered a major address that contained within it a flagrant contradiction.

snip

In short, look at what President Bush does, not what he says, and you'll find his usual consistency, this time hiding under a veneer of apparent indecision.

snip
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1036

[bemildred]

27. "Consistency and predictability are core strengths of George W. Bush"

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Right.
No offense, but that is not a good way to start off an essay.

[Behind the Aegis]

28. But it is true.

"Consistency and predictability are core strengths of George W. Bush"

His policies are consistently self-serving and pro-big business and predictably cater to his base of religious nuts and big business clients. One knows when Shrub does something, it will be predictably bad for the country, and he has been consistent in doing this since the day he stole the office! The only problem I have with the sentence is I don't usually see those two things as strengths, especially when Shrub is involved.

[barb162]

30. That's for sure

He'll always be pro-big business, anti-consumer, anti-American worker, anti-environmental, he'll always try to cut social welfare benefits that have been part of our society since the mid 1930s, etc.

[bemildred]

31. LOL. Consistently a bungler, yes. nt

[barb162]

29. whaddayamean? He's consistent on gay marriage,"values" and

on why we have to "stay the course"in Iraq, his war on terror,etc. Of course his reasons change why we are in Iraq....
You have to get past that part about his well-known "consistency" and read it as you just did,laughing on the floor. He really is consistent and predictable. When he first started talking about going into Iraq, you KNEW we were going into Iraq, that he would find ways of getting there. Also, you must find the following perfectly consistent:

"I'm looking forward to a good night's sleep on the soil of a friend." —George W. Bush, on visiting Denmark, Washington D.C., June 29, 2005

"And the second way to defeat the terrorists is to spread freedom. You see, the best way to defeat a society that is — doesn't have hope, a society where people become so angry they're willing to become suiciders, is to spread freedom, is to spread democracy." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., June 8, 2005

"See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda." —George W. Bush, Greece, N.Y., May 24, 2005 (Listen to audio)

"Listen, I want to thank leaders of the — in the faith — faith-based and community-based community for being here." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Sept. 6, 2005

"Well, we've made the decision to defeat the terrorists abroad so we don't have to face them here at home. And when you engage the terrorists abroad, it causes activity and action." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., April 28, 2005

"I think younger workers — first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government — promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 4, 2005

"I hope you leave here and walk out and say, 'What did he say?'" —George W. Bush, Beaverton, Oregon, Aug. 13, 2004

[bemildred]

32. Consistently incoherent. nt

[barb162]

33. Here, this should help you out

"There's nothing more deep than recognizing Israel's right to exist. That's the most deep thought of all. ... I can't think of anything more deep than that right." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., March 13, 2002


and this

"Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon arrived in Washington Sunday night to give President Bush a 91-page book proving that Yasser Arafat funded terrorists. White House sources say that President Bush has the book and is almost done coloring it." —Tina Fey on Saturday Night Live's "Weekend Update
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blmiddleeastjokes.htm

[Lithos]

34. Lockign per I/P guidelines

Original posts must be based on a recent news or op-ed article.

Lithos
I/P Forum Moderator