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can someone explain 'spray firing' to me?

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Krinkov Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:02 AM
Original message
can someone explain 'spray firing' to me?
What is it, how does a pistol grip make it possible? Hoping some of the anti-gun firearms experts can explain this. Or anyone, for that matter.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:J8wGUICi7JwJ:www.b...

down the page, under 'mass produced mayhem.'

i heard a debate on npr where a brady guy explained that the pistol grip made it possible for vang to shoot all those hunters in minnesota (SKS rifles dont even HAVE pistol grips).
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illflem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. The article says
the pistol grip makes it possible to spray fire from the hip. If the gun doesn't have a pistol grip it takes two hands to aim it, making it difficult from the hip.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Umm, you can't fire a pistol-gripped gun from the hip one-handed...
Edited on Wed Feb-02-05 03:33 PM by benEzra
unless you are pointing it at the ground three feet in front of your feet.

The whole "from the hip" argument is BS; based on simple human wrist anatomy, a vertical handgrip is more ergonomic for firing from the SHOULDER, not the hip.

The reasons Arnold and Vin Diesel can do it in the movies are (a) they are really strong and (b) they are "shooting" movie guns loaded with blanks.
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Mark H Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:40 AM
Response to Original message
2. Brady bunch hogwash
Kind of like that no child left behind thing. Sounds like it means something but it's just bullshit. It gets really tiring trying to keep up with all their made up terms.
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davepc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:08 AM
Response to Original message
3. "spray-fire" is an invented term by the anti-gun crowd
pistol grips do make shooting from the hip "easier" but since its a good way to miss what you're shooting at, its not much use outside of a Hollywood movie.
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pocket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:55 AM
Response to Original message
4. spray-and-pray
means firing all your ammo as fast and possible without aiming, and just pray you hit something

you can do that with or without a pistol grip, and either way you aren't going to hit much.

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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
5. "Spray firing from the hip" is for amateurs.
To be a true gun nut; one must learn and appreciate the carnage and devastation brought about by "bump" firing... especially "bump" firing under water. B-)
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enfield collector Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. "Aqua bump", that sure is a dificult and expensive one to master.
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anonymous44 Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
33. indeed
only the elite can do the aqua bump

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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
6. Meant to infer automatic fire, and frighten the ignorant
That is why the anti gun zealots use that term when speaking of semi auto weapons. Its meant to infer that "spray" fire is on par with full auto fire. Its an effective propaganda tool in that 90% of the soccer moms et al will never know the difference. They are literally frightened into submission. Propaganda is most effective when people are ignorant, and afraid. Hence, "spray fire" from "assault weapons" using "cop killer" bullets. :eyes: Were they ever forced to be honest and forthright in their positions, the anti gun lobby would run out of funds, political leverage, and public support within months.

The pistol grip has absolutely nothing to do with spray fire. That can be accomplished with or without a pistol grip. Nor does spray fire amount to anything more than throwing darts blindfolded. But, since when does a little thing like the truth stand in the way of dissembling our constitutional rights?
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Which gives us another Bradyism...
the dreaded "Bullet Hose"! :scared:
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Torque67 Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Bullet Hose
Bullet hoses spraying vest piercing death military style bullets by terrorists at children! Everybody run! Run for your lives!!!!!11111

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anonymous44 Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
34. lol
at bullet hose

when i first heard it on history channel i laughed my ass off.
should hurry up and buy 'a hose capable of sparaying the bullets'
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Romulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
8. "pistol grips" do *NOT* make hip-firing "easier"
For your own personal test, use your garden hose for this demo (or just pretend you have a garden hose):

(1) hold the hose at your waist using one of those pistol-grip nozzles that have your knuckles pointing straight ahead (or make a fist, and put it down at your waist, bending your hand so the knuckles face forward)

and then compare how your 90-degeree-bent wrist just about torqued itself off of your arm versus

(2) the plain hose, or a regular "twist" nozzle, held with your knuckles pointing down (or a fist held at the waist, with your knuckles pointing down to the floor).

Now, imagine how that torquing from the pistol grip would feel when you have rearward-moving recoil from a firearm factored in . . . .
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. No, but they supposedly give you more thrusts per squeeze
:crazy:
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alwynsw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
9. It's made-up anti-RKBA horseshit
Q.E.D.

Pistol grips are not a factor.
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Mayday999 Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
14. 'spray firing' ... more Brady bull.
Chances are, if the Brady Bunch is talking...then they are lying. ATF has caught them many, many times making 1/2 truths and misrepresentations.

The latest one is the ATF letter released advising that the FN FiveseveN is NOT armor-piercing. Funny how the networks missed this letter.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
15. I had a nasty case of food poisoning a couple of years ago
I can tell you all about spray-firing.

:argh:
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CarinKaryn Donating Member (629 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
16. I call b.s. on most of the posts in this thread
and a preemptive bs on the posts yet to be posted.

Since the pistol grip is designed to make gripping the gun easier, as admitted below, it also makes firing the gun easier.

Since spray firing requires shooting very quickly, everything a killer can do to make shooting easier will help improve his accuracy and lead to more dead people.

The pistol grip helps kill faster by making the gun easier to use.

The original poster asked about pistol grips and spray firing. All the discussion about shooting from the hip, and how the bullet hose would be torqued out of your hand if you use a pistol grip is just a red herring.

With enough half truths you can fool the uninformed but the purpose of the gun is still to kill.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Always focusing on the negatives, aren't we?
Anything that makes a firearm easier to control makes it safer to use.

Aimed fire is far more effective than rapid, indiscriminate fire no matter what you call it if the intent is to hit targets.

With enough half truths you can fool the uninformed but the purpose of the gun is still to kill.

So what?
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CarinKaryn Donating Member (629 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. No valid rebuttal?
Than make a quick switch to a personal attack when caught b.s.-ing.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. What personal attack?
I'm simply pointing out that you don't know what you're talking about.
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CarinKaryn Donating Member (629 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I'm wrong?
Please point out where?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. The part where you wrote...
Edited on Wed Feb-02-05 08:12 PM by slackmaster
"I call b.s. on most of the posts in this thread"

Most of the posts in this thread are factually accurate.

You are correct that a gun that is easy to handle can be used to better effect than one that is less easy to handle, but that unquestionably involves accurate, carefully aimed fire. That is inconsistent with "spray firing", which is the topic of this thread.
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. You've tried this at home then?
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Buster43 Donating Member (54 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Spray fire
is used in weapons that are fully automatic. Pull and hold the trigger and move the weapon back and forth "spraying bullets". A pistol grip is not a determining factor as evidenced by the STEN gun or MP-28.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. I happen to own...
Edited on Thu Feb-03-05 09:00 AM by benEzra
a Ruger mini-14 Ranch Rifle with three different stocks--a traditional-looking wooden stock, a pistol grip stock, and a folding stock. I can vouch from personal experience that the pistol grip is indeed more comfortable than the 19th-century-style wooden stock when shooting from the shoulder, and makes the gun considerably more difficult to shoot from the hip (as if this were a desirable thing to do).

But the point of this thread is the Bradys' claim that a pistol grip stock is more ergonomic for firing indiscriminately from the hip. That claim is patently false, and is the topic of this thread.

I understand that you intensely dislike all guns, pistol gripped or not. But pretending that the pistol grip makes a gun more suited for indiscriminate fire is what should be called BS.
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Factoid Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. False.
A pistol grip is designed to make a firearm easier to grip *AT SHOULDER LEVEL*. It is actually somewhat uncomfortable to fire from the hip; a traditional style stock is considerably easier for hip firing.


But who in god's name wants to fire from the hip?

And a pistol grip does not cause a gun to "kill faster". You still need to line the sights up with the target, control your breathing, wait for mid-breath, and squeeze the trigger, to get an accurate shot. I don't think that adding a pistol grip adjusts your breathing at all - Unless it has a tube to slide down your throat, It just releaves some wrist tension at shoulder level, making it more ergonamic to use.

If you want to just spray and pray, you're not likely to hit anything you're aiming at, unless it's within 5 feet from you, reguardles of what type of grip you use.

Hollywood != Reality.

If you want to understand it more, head down to your local range and ask for some instruction. You'll learn more in 30 minutes than you will ever learn watching movies or listening to brady tripe.

But, they do say Ignorance is Bliss, don't they?
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. I call BS on your BS

In your own post you say that pistol grips make rifles easier to use and I would agree. Mostly because I find them ergonomically more comfortable when I aim a rifle at my shoulder. As another poster described, pistol grips become less comfortable when the rifle is not raised up. Spray firing, at laest the way I use the term, are rapid shots that are only loosely aimed in the direction of the target and covers a wide area. I wouldn't consider a carefully aimed rifle to be spraying bullets even if the rate of fire was relatively fast.

The benefit of pistol grips on a rifle is independent of whether or not the shooter is spray firing or slowly taking an aimed shot.

Me thinks you conflating "easier to use a gun" with "spray firing" was just another red herring.



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CarinKaryn Donating Member (629 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. re: the Original Post
It does not mention firing from the hip. Only asks about pistol grips. Mentions that a pistol gripped SKS is easier to shoot than non pistol grip.
(the link DOES mention hip firing, but that's not what the original post is asking about).
So all the discussion about pistol grips and hip firing is a red herring.

Yes, a pistol grip will allow you to shoot easier, whether shooting delibertly or indiscriminately. And if you are using a better eronomically designed grip (like a pistol grip) you will have a better chance of hitting the children (did Purdy's gun have a pistol grip? How about Furrow's?) than if not.
And yes, you can get a pistol gripped stock for your SKS (funny how no one corrected the original poster on THAT point).
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I don't see anything wrong with making a tool easier to handle
Edited on Thu Feb-03-05 07:44 PM by slackmaster
Ease of use is important whether the tool is intended to cut wood or kill things. If a pistol grip gives a shooter better control over a dangerous implement that seems like a good safety feature to me.

How many "extra" deaths have happened in rare mass shootings, that would not have happened in the absence of pistol grips? The question seems absurd to me. We shouldn't have to dumb down the design of firearms in the vain hope that the next wannabe Patrick Purdy or Buford Furrow might have a lower hit ratio when he goes off the deep end. That's like resigning ourselves to the inevitability of mass killings, avoiding any discussion of the underlying causes - usually in some way related to lack of adequate mental health care, or a criminal justice system that failed to confine a person already known to be dangerous.

What would come next on your slippery slope? Limits on the accuracy of hunting rifles to limit the potential for their abuse by snipers? Pistols that don't shoot straight? Bullets required to tumble in flight so they are useless beyond some arbitrary range?
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. The link in the original thread...
Edited on Thu Feb-03-05 07:51 PM by benEzra
(CarinKaryn)
It does not mention firing from the hip. Only asks about pistol grips. Mentions that a pistol gripped SKS is easier to shoot than non pistol grip. (the link DOES mention hip firing, but that's not what the original post is asking about). So all the discussion about pistol grips and hip firing is a red herring.


The term "spray firing" was coined by the VPC, in the context of firing from the hip. Lots of references to that at www.vpc.org . They different between "sporting" guns, designed for aimed firing from the shoulder, and "assault weapons," which are "designed to be spray fired from the hip." This canard has some up so often in the "assault weapons" debate that it has become a cliche. The Brady site repeats it in that context, as you mention: "Pistol grips on assault rifles and shotguns help stabilize the weapon during rapid fire and allow the shooter to spray-fire from the hip position."

(Yes, a pistol grip will allow you to shoot easier, whether shooting delibertly or indiscriminately. And if you are using a better eronomically designed grip (like a pistol grip) you will have a better chance of hitting the children (did Purdy's gun have a pistol grip? How about Furrow's?) than if not.

Purdy's rifle did have a pistol grip. He killed 5 people, the same number that graduate student Gang Lu killed with a .38 revolver a year or so later (the prohibitionists don't often bring up THAT one) and roughly a third as many (IIRC) as Charles Whitman killed with a bolt-action hunting rifle. Doesn't appear that the pistol grip helped Purdy much.

The only gun Furrow killed anyone with was a conventional Glock 26 9mm handgun like my wife's, presumably with the factory-issue 10-round magazine. The VPC says the gun he used to shoot up the Jewish community center was a fully automatic Uzi submachine gun (not an "assault weapon," a NFA Class III Uzi, if they're correct), which is a handgun rather than a pistol-gripped long gun. (All handguns have pistol grips, of course.) FWIW, Furrow was a convicted felon and was thereby barred from legally possessing ANY firearm (a law he chose to disobey).

BTW, I mention below that a pistol grip stock on a long gun makes shooting more comfortable and makes it harder for an assailant to take your gun away from you (see below). But it doesn't make a gun more lethal. Still, the point being addressed above was that a pistol grip somehow enables "spray firing," and regardless of whether the context is hip-shooting or aimed shooting that is a falsehood.

And yes, you can get a pistol gripped stock for your SKS (funny how no one corrected the original poster on THAT point).


Pistol grip stocks are available for SKS's already in a "nonsporting" configuration prior to the enactment of 18 USC 922(r); installing one on a typical SKS would be a Federal felony.

But I believe Krinkov's point in that regard was that Vang used a rifle with a traditional straight wooden stock (a Saiga, not an SKS, BTW, with a politically-correct 10-round magazine) to murder the other hunters.
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Peak_Oil Donating Member (666 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. We should definitely design rifles to be difficult to fire.
Maybe we could put the trigger on the back of the stock. That would make firing them almost impossible. And if you put the sights on the trigger, that would make it even tougher!!

That way, killers would be totally unable to do anything!

We gotta do this to all the guns for the police and the soldiers, too!
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anonymous44 Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
35. wouldn't you be more accurate by shooting from a shoulder?
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Mayday999 Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-05 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
23. Never use terms the Brady's coin...
...such as "spray firing." Its either semi-auto or full auto. No in betweens exist. What the Brady's ALWAYS try to do is use an ambiguous, inflammatory term; such terms include "pocket-rocket", "cop-killer bullets" and yes, "spray-firing".

Cop-killer bullets: Mind you not a SINGLE officer has ever been killed by a armor-piercing bullet fired from a pistol; these bullets are known as KTW's. Which are steel-core bullets with a Teflon coating. The Teflon is used to protect the barrel, not make it deadlier. What about rifles you ask? Just about EVERY rifle bullet cuts through street vests like butter.

Guess what, I can "spray-fire" a hunting rifle. I can "spray-fire" a hunting shotgun thats 60 years old. But using such a term promotes great headlines for anti-rights newspapers.

In addition, I just tried to hold a my Steyr AUG at the hip, and the pistol grip makes it VERY uncomfortable. Forcing me to raise the rifle to my shoulder.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-05 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
25. OK, here's my take on what a pistol-grip stock...
Edited on Thu Feb-03-05 10:07 AM by benEzra
does for a law-abiding gun owner like me.

(1) Allows you to shoot a long gun from the shoulder without sticking your right arm out to the side like a chicken wing, thereby (to me) making recreational target shooting more comfortable.

(2) Makes it harder for an attacker to snatch a long gun away from you in a home-defense situation, by giving you a firmer grasp on the gun.

(3) Makes it easier to point a long gun safely down at the floor while keeping the gun close to your body for security ("position sul" in gunny-speak). This can be done with a traditional straight stock, but bends your right wrist like a chicken wing and weakens your grasp on the gun.

(4) Allows you to "short-stock" the gun more easily, as you might in a home-defense situation. By this I mean holding the gun at the shoulder, but with the buttplate behind your shoulder, thereby keeping the gun closer to you and in less danger of the muzzle being grabbed. It can be done with a straight-stocked gun, but there's that chicken-wing thing.

(5) Long guns with pistol-grip stocks look way cooler. :) I'm a Gen-X'er; I don't care for the late-1800's aesthetics of most straight-stocked long guns. Just a personal preference.
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