RKBA Evangelists, Meet DLA

[Paladin]

I was looking over Fox News online this morning and came across an article entitled "Anti-Abortion Democrats Seek A Better Seat At Table." Turns out there's a group called (drum roll, please)"Democrats For Life Of America." These people are saying that Kerry lost because of the party's extreme pro-abortion stance, and that we need to moderate our views or the Republicans are going to keep beating us.

If that sounds familiar, it's because it's the same line we've been hearing from gun radicals in this forum for some time, claiming that our gun control views have lost us elections, and demanding that we adopt a more NRA-friendly approach, immediately. So....once we put a big smile on Ted Nugent's face regarding guns, and once we brighten up Karl Rove's day with a new policy on reproductive rights, just what's going to be left of our party? Keeping in mind, of course, that "Democratic" action groups demanding that we move away from supporting gay rights, environmental safeguards, church/state separation and God knows what else, are probably already in existence, or being organized.

How about it, Gun Huggers? If we crater on your single-issue mania, why shouldn't we make the anti-abortion people, the gay haters, and the rest of George Bush's coalition happy by becoming as Republican as possible?

[Columbia]

1. When in doubt

Always choose freedom

[mosin]

13. Always choose freedom.

Good answer, Columbia. That's my motto!

[Columbia]

18. Thanks

Guess I'll make it my sig for a little while since it's so popular. :)

[alwynsw]

19. I like it.

Did you make that up all by yourself? Since you're an admitted jeans creaming gun fetishist, you probably plagarized it from an outhouse wall. That's the type of ethics we expect from the popgun crowd. (I'm beginning to miss the annoyance. Does it show?)

God job! :toast:

[Columbia]

21. No pantloads here

Well, I did a google search of the phrase and came up with nothing, so I guess I did come up with it all by myself. :think:

[LoZoccolo]

2. Looks like you got schooled by Columbia.

Dizzang!

[CaptainCorc]

3. Have gun will travel, there Paladin?

Having found the will power to release my gun from its hug and work the keyboard, I thought I'd risk a reply. No, Paladin, I don't think you or the party you rode in on should change your principles in order to garner votes. And I don't say this as part of a plot to make sure you stay as far left as possible so as never to be popular enough to threaten my gun ownership. Stand by your principles, by all means, but I agree with the poster above who says "when in doubt, choose freedom". I'm a gun hugger who sees nothing wrong with gay marriage or a woman's right to choose.

[Lefty48197]

8. You just don't vote for candidates that support those positions right?

.

[CaptainCorc]

17. Wrong n/t

[LinuxUser]

4. Good question... some possible answers

First answer is simple numbers. The majority of Americans are mostly pro-choice and there are millions and millions of Americans who will make it a single-issue vote decision maker. If some politician is serious about banning abortion, that issue by itself is all it takes to lose the vote of millions. Guns are the same way, except there are millions of single-issue pro-gun voters (like me) and there are not very many single-issue anti-gun voters.

Second answer is more an opinion than an answer. Pro-choice is part of the Dem's core values at this point. Is banning guns a Dem core value? I don't think so. Again, just opinion, I have no facts to back this up.

Final answer, the abortion issue does make a difference to everyone in the US. If it is banned, it will change the lives of every woman and man in the US to some extent. Guns are not like that. Banning them all won't make us any safer. Allowing people to own machineguns (as they do now) won't make the US any more dangerous. The gun issue really only matters to "gun nuts" like me.

I consider myself pro-choice on just about everything. Don't want an abortion? Don't have one. Don't one a gun? Don't own one. Don't want gay marriage? Don't marry someone who is the same sex as you. Don't like the way cocaine smells? Don't smell it. Don't like porn? Don't watch it. Etc.

The other problem with taking on a more anti-choice stance is there isn't much middle ground on it. Really, if the fetus is a human being with full human rights, then why should abortion be legal in cases of rape or incest? It shouldn't be. There are middle grounds in the gun issue. We're in a middle ground on it now.

Also, there are a large number of voters who are strongly anti-choice and will make it a single-issue thing... but to win any of those votes, the Dems would need to take a very solid and persuasive anti-choice stance. They can't get those people by taking a "moderate" stance, but they sure could lose some votes by taking a moderate stance.

I see your point, there do appear to be some parallels, but really, the analysis shows they are very different issues.

And please don't call me a gun radical... I prefer "gun nut". I'm trying to "reclaim" the term.

Oh, and as someone else already said in this thread, when in doubt, vote for freedom. The Dems should adopt THAT idea as a core value.

[alwynsw]

5. Golly, Mr. Wizard.

I've seen very few NRA friendly proposals. I have seen many pro RKBA proposals.

[Retired AF Dem]

6. I could learn to take you more seriously

if you would drop the name calling. I'm pro choice when it comes to everything. Since I also choose to own firearms I'm a Gun Hugger and a gun radical. I measure a persons worth on how they treat people they don't agree with and you my man don't make the grade.

[Lefty48197]

9. All gun owners are not gun nuts

It's only the NRA members who pretend that they aren't Republicans that have earned the title "nuts".

[mosin]

12. Earning the title "nuts"

I'm an NRA Life Member.

I'm a life-long Democrat.

I don't think I'm pretending on either front.

So am I nuts, or do I fall outside your little algorithm?

[alwynsw]

16. May I just say, "Ditto", to your post?

It fits me as well.

[Spiffarino]

27. I've considered joining NRA

The problem is that the organization puts so much money into Republican hands. I don't want any of my money going to Republicans until they dump their world domination agenda and start acting like real Americans.

On the other hand, I rather like the thought of infiltrating their ranks. I consider myself very liberal (I consider gun rights a liberal stance since it's about liberty) and would love to be in there challenging their ideas about what constitutes freedom and liberty. Imagine what the NRA would be like if everyone in this forum and all their Dem/Moderate/Liberal gun-totin' buddies joined up. Woudn't that be a mindf*ck for the RW nutjobs?!

[LinuxUser]

28. Join!

There are a diverse range of opinions within the NRA, except on the subject of gun rights, where there are a small range of opinions. You should join! As for not wanting any of your money to go to Republicans... well, membership is only about $20/year I think. Most of that probably goes to pay for all the junk they mail you all the time. But stil, I see your point. But the way to change it is to join it! They are committed to gun rights and if there's a Democrat out there who feels the same way, that Democrat will get NRA support. Despite what is said here, the NRA is a non-partisan group. It just happens that, unfortunately, the Democrats haven't figured out the right stance on this issue yet.

[Billy Ruffian]

30. The NRA will support Democrats

cf. Gov. Mike Easley, D-NC, NRA A rating, and endorsement.

Also, the dues to the NRA don't go to political activity, anyway. It goes to your magazine, and to safety programs (did you know that the NRA conducts a LOT of police training)

The NRA-PVF and NRA-ILA are the organizations that are the political parts of the NRA, and I don't think their funds are co-mingled.

However, you WILL hear a lot of vitriol against a lot of Democrats ... at least the ones that are considered 'gun-grabbers'

[mosin]

32. NRA membership

It is important to keep in mind that there are multiple NRA organizations, including the NRA parent organization, which runs the training and education programs, and the NRA Institute for Legislative Action, the NRA's PAC. Money can't flow from the NRA to the NRA-ILA. PAC contributions are the only ones that directly flow to political candidates. It is the PAC that endorses candidates, not the parent organization. The parent organization can and does publish opinion pieces in NRA magazines writing about candidates' positions on the issues. It just can't make any endorsements. You have to decide whether you are comfortable with that.

I have been an NRA Life Member since the 80's, so I don't pay any annual dues, and I don't donate to the PAC. (Actually I don't donate to any PACs or political parties, only to individual candidate committees.)

There are also various other NRA organizations, including the NRA Foundation, the NRA Civil Rights Defense Fund, and the NRA Whittington Center, all 501(c)(3) non-profits.

[Township75]

7. Going after the single-issue anti gunners sure has won us a lot...

of elections.

[Lefty48197]

10. This post raises a lot of philosophical questions:

Would a Democrat, who believes in full civil rights for every American regardless of race, religion, gender, or sexual preference, give up their beliefs and vote for a Republican, just because he supports their attempts to stockpile ammunition and military weaponry?

Would a Democrat who believes in the absolute right of workers to work in a safe environment, who believes in the absolute right of workers to organize in order to gain better wages, better benefits, and better working conditions abandon all of their beliefs and vote for a Republican just because that Republican supports their attempts to stockpile assault weapons?

Would a Democrat who believes that we have been Commanded by God to "Feed the poor" and "Heal the afflicted" abandon their beliefs and vote for a Republican who thinks that every crack addict in America who steals a pistol should be able to walk into Walmart and buy ammunition to go out and kill people with no questions asked?

No. No they wouldn't. Only Republicans vote Republican. Republicans don't care about civil rights, they don't care about workers rights, and they don't care about the fact that we have been Commanded by God to feed the poor. They also don't care that their precious guns are the weapon of choice for robbers, murderers, and rapists alike. No. All they care about are guns and stuffing money into their own pockets at the expense of America's working poor.

[EstimatedProphet]

14. That's not true

Unfortunately there are a lot of people that vote gun-only as an issue. They may believe many of the things that the democratic party stands for, but they vote republican because they are afraid of losing their guns. Would anti-abortion people do the same thing? Nah. Anti-abortionists have too many other collateral issues going on.

[beevul]

20. Interesting questions, brutally honest answers...

"Would a Democrat, who believes in full civil rights for every American regardless of race, religion, gender, or sexual preference, give up their beliefs and vote for a Republican, just because he supports their attempts to stockpile ammunition and military weaponry?"


The short answer in my case is no. Absolutely not. I will never vote against full civil rights for every American regardless of race, religion, gender, or sexual preference.

On the other hand...

Would an individual who would otherwise vote democrat, who believes in full civil rights for every American regardless of race, religion, gender, or sexual preference, AND is pro-rkba give up their rkba beliefs and vote for a Democrat, even though he opposes their attempts to stockpile ammunition and "military style" weaponry?

In my case, and in the case of many, the short answer is again, no. Absolutely not. Never will I vote against rkba.


"Would a Democrat who believes in the absolute right of workers to work in a safe environment, who believes in the absolute right of workers to organize in order to gain better wages, better benefits, and better working conditions abandon all of their beliefs and vote for a Republican just because that Republican supports their attempts to stockpile assault weapons?"

Again, in my case, no. Absolutely not.

On the other hand...

Would an individual who would otherwise vote democrat, who believes in the absolute right of workers to work in a safe environment, who believes in the absolute right of workers to organize in order to gain better wages, better benefits, and better working conditions abandon all of their rkba beliefs and vote for a Democrat even though that Democrat opposes their attempts to stockpile military style weapons?

Again, in my case, no. Absolutely not.


"Would a Democrat who believes that we have been Commanded by God to "Feed the poor" and "Heal the afflicted" abandon their beliefs and vote for a Republican who thinks that every crack addict in America who steals a pistol should be able to walk into Walmart and buy ammunition to go out and kill people with no questions asked?"

As to religion, commanded by god...etc...Couldn't tell ya. I am agnostic.

I find most of the issues you mentioned, especially reproductive choice, and RKBA, to be both inseparable, and NON-NEGOTIABLE.

I am no more a gun nut than I am an abortion nut, or a civil rights nut, or an equality nut, or a union nut, or a safe environment nut.


It isn't quite as simple as saying I am a single issue voter. I have LOTS of single issues.

Single issues that I will never vote against, and that are pre-requisite to earn my vote. Period.

[mosin]

22. Well-said

:thumbsup: :toast: :yourock: :hug: :pals:

[EstimatedProphet]

11. Because gun ownership isn't republican

Gun ownership is a liberal issue. It is about the rights of the individual outweighing the rights of the government. The democratic leadership hasn't been consistent about gun ownerhip; if they are saying that people should have the right to be homosexual, or athiest, then they should also say they have the right to own guns.

Personally I don't like playing pick-and-choose with the Bill of Rights anyway. They are all my rights. Period. If your concern is to control gun violence, then why not work toward locality restrictions? Why not work on education programs? These are the kinds of things you would do for abortion rights or religious rights, rather than an all-or-nothing approach.

Are you more concerned about rights, or about being seen with Ted Nugent and Karl Rove? Even though Nugent is an immature jerk and Karl Rove is evil, that doesn't mean that they are wrong about this issue. I hate Karl Rove, but I won't change my mind on what I think is right because of what he thinks.

[DoNotRefill]

15. We should be pro-choice across the board.

You know, the Party of Civil Liberties and all that?

Let teh Republicans be the party of taking away people's rights.

[Paladin]

23. A Couple Of Generations Ago........

...the Democratic Party, to its everlasting credit, walked away from its Dixiecrat past into the Civil Rights era. I'm confident that there were plenty of "Democrats" at the time that were dismayed by this, urging that the party stay with its hyper-conservative past, and predicting an unending series of electoral disaters if their demands weren't met. And I'm also confident that these Dixiecrat types threw around the concept of "freedom" a lot----freedom to keep their neighborhoods lily white, freedom to send their kids to segregated schools, freedom to offer service at restaurants to those they approved of, freedom to maintain separate restrooms, and freedom for states and localities to be unhindered by federal controls of any sort.


The party did the right thing, and, sure enough, it has cost us elections; we may never get the South back again. Some times principles come at a high price. The Democratic Party now faces a similar situation, with various single-issue interest groups demanding that the party trend more and more to the right, in order to gain some votes. My hope is that the party remains true to its core beliefs, because it's the correct thing to do. You gun militants are free to attempt to persuade the party to adopt a Republican attitude about guns---just don't expect it to happen without some spirited opposition.

[MrSandman]

24. Are those "Republican attitude[s] about guns"

The ones that are prevalent in many blue collar Labor Union households? I do not see a contradiction in abortion rights and RKBA.

I may believe that as a personal choice, abortion is wrong. I also believe as a policy of a secular democratic republic, an abortion prohibition is wrong. That is the beauty of free choice.

If the NRA is such a monolithic Republican organization, why did it not enter the presidential fray prior to September? Why does the NRA continue to endorse Democratic candidates over Republicans in many state and local elections. Wouldn't a Republican front group have an interest in stacking all the state legislatures in the favor of Republicans as part of a long-term strategy to District Democrats out of the House?

I do not advocate abandoning your principles, but do examine them. Examine whether the furtherance of those principles is, or can be, a legitimate and effective role of the federal government.

The best thing that happened to the Republicans was Roe v. Wade. Since then, they have been able to espouse anti-choice views which energize many evangelicals without losing the votes of those who might otherwise agree and now have the assurance of the SCOTUS that these anti choice views will not become policy.

Perhaps a pro-2nd Amendment decision woud serve our party as well.

[Paladin]

25. And Over In The GD Forum, As I Type This.......

.....there's a thread advocating that the Democratic Party shit-can its support of reproductive freedom. Feel better?

[MrSandman]

29. No, I don't....

I said, I do not believe it is the function of a secular government to regulate reproductive freedom.


Is the difference between a personal choice and a policy decision that elusive?

Please indicate where I implied or stated that I would feel better if the Democratic Party shit-can(s) its support of reproductive freedom and I will gladly admit my error and apologize.

[MrSandman]

31. Still missing your point...nt

[Spiffarino]

26. Calling it a "single-issue" misses the point

I've always been a Democrat, both small and large "D", and I don't vote on gun rights as a single issue. However, I always favor the Democrat who believes in the rights of sane, law-abiding people to own firearms.

My only "gun issue" is about freedom, as several have so eloquently stated. I want to be able to preserve this democracy from any threat of tyranny, whether it's external or internal.

Furthermore, I will not "cave" on a woman's right to choose. It's a woman's issue and, as a man, I want that decision left up to her.

Having said that, I believe virtually all Dems would prefer abortion to be safe, legal, and rare. Our efforts might be better spent on expanding options for women rather than pushing abortion itself as the top Democratic priority. However, in the end abortion must be kept legal - and available on demand - in order for it to remain a safe procedure.

No coathangers. Never again.