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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:24 AM
Original message
How do you stand on the Second Amendment?
I am very, adamantly, almost fanatically pro gun. I have many reasons for this. I would like to know how your average person feels about responsible firearm ownership. Also, what do you think is going to happen to the Assault Weapons Ban, aka the silliest gun law ever?
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Doomsayer13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. Pro-Gun Democrat
I personally do not own a firearm, but I respect our rights as citizen to own and keep firearms. I am for the assult weapon's ban, however, and believe that that NRA has become a wholly owned subsidiary of the Republican Party.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Little secret about the AWB
It doesnt ban anything that makes the weapons more lethal. A deer rifle is more powerful than an AK47. I know, I own one of each. The assault weapons ban was a showcase, to show the rank and file that they were "tough on Crime!!". Less than one percent of firearm related crime is committed with a socalled assault weapon.

I mainly collect antique military firearms. I own several others. Personally, I think that the more regulation on firearms we have, the worse crime will become. Bad guys like attacking unarmed people. Its just easier.
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TexasSissy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Doesn't the AWB stop buying of machine guns? I thought that was
the main purpose. To stop bad guys from buying machine guns that could mow down a troop of cops in one sweep. Cops don't have machine guns, since they are military weapons. That's what the mafia dudes used in the '40s and such, isn't it?
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Most of these restrictions involve such things as bayonet lugs
I support more regulation concerning the selling of weapons designed for military use, and bayonet lugs are one tell-tale sign of such.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. However
A bayonet lug does not make a weapon more dangerous. When was the last time you heard of gang members having a drive by bayonetting? ;D
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. True, but a weapon with a bayonet lug isn't designed for a sportsman's use
Edited on Fri Aug-20-04 03:40 AM by jpgray
I have no problem with people owning such a weapon, but I do think they should go through a process of registration and/or licensing. A shotgun is great for home defense, and regular rifles work fine for hunting. Beyond this, I think you're into a more purely recreational use for the weapon and therefore I don't think strict regulation is unreasonable.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. I agree, but
where does the regulation stop? I own weapons that I use for different reasons. I have a home defense shotgun(my other home defense weapon is a big zweihander sword, lol), a target rifle, a backpacking rifle that can be taken apart and carried in a backpack, a .30-06 hunting rifle, and four military BA rifles from various periods and countries.
It just seems a bit nasty to hit people who collect guns with special registration and liscensure that you dont hit other people with. Cars are more dangerous than guns....
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. Well we need to find the equilibrium there
There ought to be a point of regulation that allows recreational use of these weapons to continue without undue wrangling while at the same time keeping them out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them. I don't know where that equilibrium is, but I know a lot of the debate doesn't really address the issue very well anymore--it's becoming two sides that have no desire or ability to understand each other.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Thats why
I pride myself on being an open minded moderate. Its easier to think with an open mind.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Actually,
The AWB just bans certain cosmetic additions. Machine guns have been regulated since 1936. You can still buy certain fully automatic weapons, after a lenghthy and very expensive background and liscencing process. No. The AWB did nothing to affect crime.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
64. The AWB does not cover Machine Guns...
The NFA of 1934 cover machine guns. The Firearms Owner Protection Act(FOPA) of 1986 outlawed additional machine guns transferred into civilian market.

Police do have fully automatic weapons.

NFA was passed because of the use of machine guns by criminals in the 20's and early 30's.

AWB covers semi-automatic rifles. Even "street sweepers" are not covered by the AWB currently, since the BATF classified them as NFA weapons in 1994.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Streetsweepers
are classified as destructive devices. And heavily controlled. That is the whole problem with the Assault Weapons Ban. No one knows what it really did, except for us legal gun owners who were affected and afflicted by it. It needs to go away.



Crime control is not gun control.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
96. But before the AWB, assault weapons accounted for over 8% of gun crime.
So maybe the AWB is doing something after all. Maybe we're saying, "We haven't had a flood in years, so let's tear down the levee!"
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TexasSissy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. My feelings exactly. (But I DO own a firearm.)
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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:28 AM
Response to Original message
2. Bored to tears of newbies rehashing it over and over and over again in GD
Didn't do David Koresh or Randy Weaver much good now, did it?

Please continue here in the gungeon
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=118
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Sorry.....
Just wanted some fresh answers for myself. Feel free not to answer.
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TexasSissy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. No need for you to apologize for having fewer posts than someone else.
ALL of us have fewer posts than someone else.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
65. All of us but one...n/t
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
85. but our newbie here is catching up fast!
To date, 228 posts -- in three days.

Hey LibraLabSoldier -- is a "I am a military medical laboratory technitian"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2239889#2243990
the same as
"I am a soldier"?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=80804#80826
I'm not up on the terminology, I admit.

And is it common for a medical laboratory technician to say
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=80804#80826
"My issued weapon is an M4a1 carbine"? (And conversely, wouldn't a technician know how to spell technician?) Are they expecting a terrorist assault on that lab?

Just curious.

228 posts in three days. Very impressive. You must be on furlough, or whatever they call that stuff.


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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #85
86. So is there anyone you don't think is some
secret Republican spy?
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. Thanks Feeb....
No matter where i go in here, it seems I get accused of being a liar. I thought paranoia was usually confined to Wingnuts...
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #85
90. Actually,
I work night shift and have an odd rotation. Many of my posts are made at night, because I dont have a lot of work to do. And eveyone in the US Army has an assigned weapon, reguardless of where they work. It doesnt mean I carry it around at work all day. I only see it when we go to the field or to the range. Why dont you come right out and call me a liar? Punk.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:30 AM
Response to Original message
5. Justice and Public Safety forum is virtually devoted to this topic
It's called, half-affectionately, the Gungeon because the arguments there are pretty fierce on gun control. Personally, I believe that ownership of a concealable weapon such as a pistol or something that was originally a military or assault weapon should require strict registration and licensing--if it's designed primarily to kill people, you ought to be able to prove you're fit to own it. Hunting rifles are a different story, and I don't think as much restriction is needed there.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Ok. But the facts dont back that up.
Scary looking guns you see in movies dont operate like that in real life. I am active duty army, and have more than a passing knowledge of actual machine guns. No one is saying we should have fully auto millitary LMGs on our streets. An AK47 is a lousy weapon to use in a crime. It is too big to conceal, too loud, and has a low rate of fire. This is the legal semi auto model i am talking about. Most gun crime is committed usually with a small caliber handgun, be it semiauto or revolver, usually in a .22 or .38 or 9mm caliber. My biggest fear is that the snowball is rolling, and eventually I will get a knock on my door.....
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. The facts don't back what up?
Edited on Fri Aug-20-04 03:38 AM by jpgray
I have no illusions about criminals using machine guns in record numbers, I just don't think buying a weapon designed to kill people should be as simple as buying a hunting rifle.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. That is where you get into odd territory.
A gun is an inanimate object. It is a piece of metal, wood, and plastic. It doesnt do anything on its own. Personally, I would rather see Pit Bulls regulated, and guns less regulated. If you are 21, and do not have a record as a violent criminal or sexual predator, you should be able to buy just about any firearm you please. Stop to consider what the second amendment was written for.

For us to defend ourselves when the government finally decides to completely take all of our rights away. Which if Dubya gets reelected, or steals this election too, should only take about six months to a year.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. If we get into a shooting match with government, we'll lose
No matter how many bayonet-fitted weapons you have, an M1A1 tank or a SWAT team isn't going to be much fazed by them. Besides, my position on this argues simply for more regulation, licensing and so on, not outright banning of such weapons. Just as you can't yell 'fire' in a crowded theater as part of your free speech rights, I don't believe citizens should own military-grade weapons such as LAWs or machine guns. I imagine we agree on that, and if so, I think allowing ownership of semi-automatic weapons that are designed for military use is fine so long as there is a good regulation policy that ensures those who purchase them are fit to use them.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. OK, Now I understand.
We do agree. Trust me. IF our government ever did decide to go crazy and try to put down the citizens, how much of the military do you think would go along with it? THis is one soldier that wouldnt. Also, I think i would raid the armsroom and motorpool before i left....>:)
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. I wouldn't sit around obeying obscure gun regulations in that scenario
Edited on Fri Aug-20-04 04:02 AM by jpgray
:D

I think gun control is in some ways a displaced reaction to social problems--regulation is necessary because we have a cycle of poverty that breeds violent crime. When you have a society that condemns such violent crime the weapons are misused less often. Currently, we have maneuvered a lot of urban areas into a culture of perpetual poverty--nearly half of NYC's minority population for example is unemployed, and the strain poverty creates on any demographic can undermine social restraints on violent crimes, making weapons that were previously no problem unregulated a problem.

So I don't think it's as simple as 'unregulated guns are the problem', but regulation is a quick fix if we can't properly address the other problems. Michael Moore makes a point along these lines in Bowling for Columbine when he notes that many people own guns in Canada, but they aren't used so often on innocent people.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. AH, but there in lies yet another problem.
Couched in terms of haves against havenots....Personally, I would like to be able to defend my home and property against those who would try to take it by force. I spoke to a local police officer here after an attempted break in at my house. I heard a window break. It was about three a.m. Normally I work nights, so I dont really sleep well at nigth. So I grabbed my shotgun. All it took was pumping a shell into the chamber. That is a very recognizable sound. As soon as I had checked the house to make sure there was no one inside, I locked the doors, and called the police. Once on the scene, they explained to me that there wasnt much they could do. He actually told me this, with the big SERVE AND PROTECT on the side of his car. I quote" We can't stop crime from happening. We pursue the criminal after the crime has been committed." I asked him what my rights were. He said that " a reasonable person would decide that he was breaking into my house to cause harm to myself or my property, therefore deadly force would have been warranted." Look, I dont want to kill anybody in my house. I have small children, and dont want them to see that. But if it comes down to us vs them....I will take us every time.

Regulation within reason is a good thing. I am not suggesting you be able to walk into circle K, pick up a pack a smokes, a case of beer and an AK47 with 100rd drum magazine. But tackling the underlying causes of crime are going to be far more successful than trying to take all guns off the streets. The police cant protect us, so we have to do it ourselves.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #25
46. You see, that's the point
your best defence against the government is hoping that the army won't open fire on its own citizens. That is why the whole argument about the 2nd amendment as some protection against government excess is a load of bull.

PS In response to a post below, Iraq is an occupation scenario, with the government widely seen as collaborating with the occupying forces, so its not really comparable.
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JSJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. iraqi resistance fighters ain't doin' too shabbily against the gov
And not an f-18 among 'em. Nor long range artillery. Nor tanks or gatlings. Just themselves and the cause (and some rpgs). Not to shabby.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. We did the same....
in the 1770s, remember. It is a well known fact of military tactics. A small determined band fighting to defend their homeland, will usually defeat a superior force. To be fair though, the Iraqi insurgents do have carbombs, IEDs, 80mm mortars, and the ubiquitous RPGs......
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necso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:32 AM
Response to Original message
7. There are plenty of pro-gun types
here at DU. I am one of them. And I am a big fan of assault rifles, although there are certain classes of cheap junk semi-autos that I have no use for.

But many of us are getting tired of the discussion.

And the "gungeon" is the place for this.
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Blayde Starrfyre Donating Member (428 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:40 AM
Response to Original message
16. How do I stand?
My stance on the second amendment: they didn't put the words "well regulated militia" in there because they thought it sounded pretty. There is no right to bear arms outside of a well regulated militia.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. ???
Ok. So why is it our government basically rounds anyone who has a "well regulated militia" up on trumped up charges and puts them away?

Because they are afraid of what an armed citizenry will do once our rights get really hammered.
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Spinzonner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #20
39. Perhaps you would like to define "well regulated militia"

In historical terms that meant State organized militias to act as a final brake on Federal power.

What you are implying are private armies. Hardly the same thing at all. Where's the regulation part ?
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jtjathomps Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
71. meaning of "Well Regulated" <> government regulation
at the time the 2nd amendment was authored, 'well regulated' did not mean government regulation. Well regulated meant 'well functioning' ie, a well regulated watch kept good time.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
97. A well-regulated militia is government-organized and government-sponsored.
Not the same as a bunch of guys with guns who call themselves a militia. Any more than a bunch of guys with sharp knives and hypodermic needles could call themselves a hospital.
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jtjathomps Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #97
135. um, check you history book there chief
militia, at the time the bill of rights creation was able bodied men - unorganized and unregulated by the government.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #135
143. That doesn't happen to be true.
The militia were called up by the federal, state, and local governments for governmental purposes. A bunch of guys who liked to shoot did not constitute a militia. See for instance the examples cited in US v. Miller.
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jtjathomps Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
72. meaning of "Well Regulated" <> government regulation
at the time the 2nd amendment was authored, 'well regulated' did not mean government regulation. Well regulated meant 'well functioning' ie, a well regulated watch kept good time. Look up the term in a dictionary published at the time, or ask a linguist.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #72
136. You can play semantic games all you want. It doesn't change the law.
It is clear from the Federalist Papers that the founders intended the militia to be under control of the state governments or the federal government. No one ever intended a freelance militia.

At the time the 2nd Amendment was authored, "militia" meant citizen soldiers organized by the government for the government's purposes. Further, all the examples used in US v. Miller and other Second Amendment cases were government-controlled militia.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
75. So "people" means militia?
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #75
98. No.
"Militia" means militia. At the time the Bill of Rights was written, the only "people" who counted (white land-owning adult males) could be called up at any time to form a militia. But those days are long over. "People" no longer means property-owning white adult males, and the militia no longer exists.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #98
129. Ok...
Please show me where in the Constitution that says "people" = "white land-owning adult males" and where in the federal code the militia was abolished.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #129
137. Regarding white land-owning adult males, try reading American history
Those were the only people who could vote, for starters. And they were the only people whose constitutional rights could hold up in a court of law, during that period and for a long time after (see Dred Scott, for example).

As for abolishing the militia, it's already done de facto. There are plenty of obsolete and unused laws on the books - that doesn't prove anything. The federal government hasn't organized a militia in at least a hundred years, and there hasn't been an armed state militia in any state since World War II.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #137
162. Good thing for the 14th Amendment, eh?
"Those were the only people who could vote, for starters. And they were the only people whose constitutional rights could hold up in a court of law, during that period and for a long time after (see Dred Scott, for example)."

What about now? Does people not mean people now?

"As for abolishing the militia, it's already done de facto. There are plenty of obsolete and unused laws on the books - that doesn't prove anything."

Hear ye, hear ye, militias are now abolished because Supreme Commander library_max said so. Right.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #162
165. Ah, different goalposts means different argument.
We were talking about what the terms meant when the Second Amendment was written. Now you want to talk about what the terms mean now. Surely you can see that that's moving the goalposts.

People means people now, and militia means obsolete institution now. A federal militia hasn't been organized in over 100 years. An armed state militia hasn't been called up since World War II. There simply is no such thing as an armed citizen militia (unless you count the National Guard, the "organized militia") in the modern US.

Of course, we could argue back and forth endlessly, but let me just put the capper on it. Every standing US court decision on the Second Amendment has held in favor of whatever gun control measure was at question and against whatever gun owner was involved. Recent decisions, notably Silveira, have established that there is no individual RKBA because there is no armed citizen militia. What you think and what I think matters little in the long run - the courts will decide the issue, and so far they've decided it in favor of gun controls.
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JSJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
19. single shot long barrels, yes- autos anything, no
But if needed to preserve life and liberty against a fascist dictatorship and it's troops, I'd be willing to emend my position on automatics.
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DaveSZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. I'm pro civil liberties
That includes guns, but I favor strict background checks (at gun shows also).

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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. Gun shows....
have always made me a bit uncomfortable as well. Too many weirdos. Its kind of like a comic book convention. Also, you get lots of guys claiming to be veterans. I love to go just to ask guys why they have medals from three different wars....one guy actually was wearing a WAC ribbon...lol GUn shows do need to be better regulated. But lets face it. If criminals want to get guns, they are going to get guns.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. hahahaha Good one.
No one is saying we want full automatics. Believe me, there is a very good reason why the M16A2 has only select fire for 3 round burst. Fully auto is not a good way to effectively kill people. The gun jumps around too much, and the scared guy on the trigger end of it wastes all his ammo too quick. Most of us collectors want this stupid AWB to sunset so we can add some pieces to our collections. We arent trying to build some kind of clandestine army.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
55. now I'm confused
No one is saying we want full automatics.

Okay.

Fully auto is not a good way to effectively kill people.

And this is the reason you don't want them??

Most of us collectors want this stupid AWB to sunset so we can add some pieces to our collections. We arent trying to build some kind of clandestine army.

So ... then ... why wouldn't you want those other things? Or be very worried about the "rights" of people who do want to collect those other things?

Just because *you* don't want 'em (for whatever reason that I can't figure out -- but hey, you don't have to justify not wanting something to me!), that doesn't mean that somebody else doesn't want 'em, eh?

It's just the day for being confused, I guess.

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turnkey Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. My personal opinion...
"No one is saying we want full automatics."

For me...Full auto would be a "want" and not a "need".

"Fully auto is not a good way to effectively kill people."

Full auto is designed for suppression fire on multiple targets. Not designed for accuracy. Most people would prefer an accurate firearm that delivers a well place shot for defense.

"Most of us collectors want this stupid AWB to sunset so we can add some pieces to our collections. We arent trying to build some kind of clandestine army."

For collecting and fun, an auto would be great!...As a tool...no.

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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. I get tired
Of this hollyweirded view of guns in general. Full autos have been regulated for a long, long time. The AWB did nothing to slow crime, except to turn law abiding gun owners into criminals. What a country!
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JohnnyRingo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
28. I'm a gun owner....I think the gun control issue got unfairly pinned
Edited on Fri Aug-20-04 03:56 AM by JohnnyRingo
on the Dems (by guess who).

If guns are taken away, it will be with the co-operation of BOTH parties.
That's how the constitution is written.

GW has put off the AWB as long as possible, trying to outwait the NRA endorsement.


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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Personally,
I am afraid he is gonna try to reinstate the AWB as a last ditch attempt to woo the suburbanite soccer mom SUV crowd......
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onebigbadwulf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 04:51 AM
Response to Original message
34. In the words of General Clark...
if you want an assault weapon, join the military. They have plenty of them to spare.


Guns are the worst thing to plague america since cigarettes. What's good about guns again? If no one had them, how would they be necessary?
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Gee mister.....
And maybe if we gave all the drug addicts enough hugs, they wouldnt need to smoke crack anymore. Lets see, you cant combat the evils of our society, so you go after law abiding citizens who own guns, "just in case?" Doesnt add up. Criminals will always have guns. You know, thats the funny thing about criminals. Law just doesnt seem to bother them much.
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onebigbadwulf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. They will "always have guns" because they're legal.
If you look at other countries where guns are practically banned yes some criminals have guns but most don't. In these countries the shooting rates are near ZERO.

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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #36
61. What about
the rest of violent crimes? Are you talking about Great Britian? Their crime rate went up 400% after the citizens were disarmed. IF that is safety, you can keep it.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #61
87. something for you to keep

Their crime rate went up 400% after the citizens were disarmed.

That pile of poop. It's all yours. Do what you like with it. Eat it, maybe.

Or hell ... prove it.

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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #61
145. You keep quoting that 400% figure.
Edited on Wed Aug-25-04 04:18 PM by library_max
What's the source?

By the way, the murder rate per capita (all murders, not just firearms) is more than three times higher in the US than in the UK or Australia. And here is the source for that:

http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/homicide.htm#murd
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JSJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. maybe if crack users were given or made to pay fair market value...
...for crack they wouldn't shoot somebody for the money to buy it on the black market. Bad analogy, there.
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ChipperbackDemocrat Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. Gun Rights+Gun Responsibilties=Guns Laws That Make Sense
I'm a gun owner who 100% supports gun control, but I'd like to see it be different.

I'm a gun owner who also would not join an organization that actually doesn't stand up for the important issues of gun ownership. That is my problem with the NRA.

Before I bought a firearm.

1. I was fully trained by a licensed gunowner who works in executive security (a.k.a. a bodyguard), a police officer and active duty member of the U.S. Army. That was over a years with a training in many disciplines of use and maintainance. That was before I purchase a weapon.

2. I went through all the background checks as specified by law.

To me this what is needed. We need to focus in on training, and educating the citizenry in the responsibilities and the rights. To me, this is where efforts like the Brady Bill fall short. With the gun control lobby, its too much about, "ban this, ban that", and making the firearm the root of all evil.

Along with regulation and restriction, we need to put emphasis on education. Before a person is allowed to drive a car they have to meet a standard of some sort, shouldn't the same reason be applied to owning the gun? I'm not necessarily saying people should be mandated to get the training I went through (Although that wouldn't be a bad thing), but at least they should be able to do the basics that will prevent them getting hurt or anybody else (except for the criminal trying to break in their house for example).

On the other side, the NRA is so busy playing politics in Washington and lobbying, that when it comes to issues such as education, courses, training, range insurance and support for USA Shooting, they are lagging behind.
The NRA is losing membership over these issues, because they unfortunately see more of a benefit in fly-by-night gun shows with people who are buying weapons that shouldn't be in public hands (ex: AK-47 to hunt with...What the heck is that? If you need an AK-47 to hunt, I'd suggest that you suck at hunting and need a different hobby.). They see more value in that than working with ranges to help them get insured and help with getting certified training efforts and instructors.
When the NRA gets pressed on these matters, they claim, "We can't do everything, we have limited budget etc.," Yet in Washington they are one of the most powerful, and well-money lobbyists. It seems there power is misplaced in some ways.

On the matter of crime, I have to answer to LibraLabSoldier. Not because he's wrong. On the contrary, when it comes to brute criminality, I'm agree that you don't negotiate with a cancer.

He made a statement that needs to be considered.

"Lets see, you cant combat the evils of our society, so you go after law abiding citizens who own guns, "just in case?" Doesnt add up."

But we can combat the evils of society, but its the approach.

To me traditional way we call be tough on crime, more cops on the beat, its actually the weakest primary reponse.

If you want to stop crime, you need more than cops on the beat. You need more people on their feet.

Any anti-crime program that doesn't include expanding economic opportunity, employement, and education will fail. Too often we look at crime in a vacuum, especially in economically depressed areas. If your not looking at the whole picture, you aren't getting the most effective response.

I believe if the Democrats took this approach this fighting crime, in addition to "more cops" etc, it would cripple the "law and order" Conservatives, because it expose another part of their cheap labor agenda.

I know its off topic, but since the drug issue came out: If you want to win the Drug War. The best tactic at this point is surrender.
If someone gets high and kills somebody, we have laws for that. We don't need an addition set of laws, and given the ridiculously inconsistent sentencing for drugs (ex: the Powder vs. Crack issue), and the racial profiling that spawns such efforts, our war on drugs has been rendered impotent.

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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #35
45. "Criminals will always have guns"
Not necessarily true. For example, say you start with a system where all guns are legal for purchase by anyone. Clearly, here criminals will indeed always have guns if they want them. Now consider what hapopens if you introduce background checks into the system (for the purposes of this little thought experiment assume that these checks always work). Criminals will no longer be able to purchase a gun from legal gun stores. However, they will still be able to get one from individuals, or by stealing them or on the black market. But the crucial point is that some of the criminal's supply of guns has been reduced. Now consider what happens in a market as you decrease the supply while the demand remains more or less constant - the price rises. But even more importantly, if the total supply drops below the total demand, some criminals will have to go without guns, because there won't be any guns for them to buy! Regardless of how much they want to break the law, they can't because the tools aren't there.

Now its true, the black market supply could increase or the number of people willing t sell guns privately may increase or whatever. Background checks may not work perfectly. But these are all problems of implementation - which is always a key problem - not principle. It is indeed possible to design a law to regulate gun ownership in the same way that its possible to design laws to regulate other aspects of human activity.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. It always cracks me up
Edited on Fri Aug-20-04 08:06 AM by MrBenchley
that the proposal by those who shout "criminals will always have guns" is to let the corrupt gun industry cash in on the situation....
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. Not to mention that it ignores the
vast number of firearms offences comitted by legally owned guns. Even if it were true, and it is not, that criminals will have guns regardless of the law, gun control would still serve to reduce the number of legally owned guns which could be used for the purposes of, say, killing your wife.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. Exactly so...
Hence the constant tooralloo from our "pro gun democrats" on this board (and from right wing fuckwits on open boards) about phony bloodbaths occuring in "tyrannies" like Britain and Australia...
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Funny thing is
Edited on Fri Aug-20-04 08:50 AM by Vladimir
in Britain, when someone is killed in a drive by, it makes the national news. Then there is a parliamentary inquiry. If that was the case in the US... lol

PS for the pedants out there, maybe I'm exaggurating a wee wee bit. But not much.
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #34
52. Really?
Could you point out an assault weapon issued by the military?
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 05:04 AM
Response to Original message
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 05:38 AM
Response to Original message
41. First is the right to life
The second amendment is fine. IF you need a gun, join the militia.

I'm for non-automatic "long" guns being public, with a national
register every time bulletts and guns are purchased.

hand guns are not for anything but murder. Use a shotgun if its
home defense, but at least they're a bit hard to conceal.

I'd accept a total ban on handguns and automatics and bores larger
than 20 mm. Nobody needs a bullett bigger than 20mm for home use.

That said, another interpretation of the second, is that we should
all have nuclear weapons. In this case, our society would have to
cater to nutters who might push the button on their home arsenal...
and in this regard, might become much more tolerant.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #41
51. Is THAT the only requirement you want to impose for gun ownership?
Edited on Fri Aug-20-04 09:31 AM by slackmaster
It suits me just fine. Here in California every able-bodied citizen is a member of the militia:

MILITARY AND VETERANS CODE
SECTION 120-130

120. The militia of the State shall consist of the National Guard,
State Military Reserve and the Naval Militia--which constitute the
active militia --and the unorganized militia.

121. The unorganized militia consists of all persons liable to
service in the militia, but not members of the National Guard or the
Naval Militia.

122. The militia of the State consists of all able-bodied male
citizens and all other able-bodied males who have declared their
intention to become citizens of the United States, who are between
the ages of eighteen and forty-five, and who are residents of the
State, and of such other persons as may upon their own application be
enlisted or commissioned therein pursuant to the provisions of this
division, subject, however, to such exemptions as now exist or may be
hereafter created by the laws of the United States or of this State....


See http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=mvc&group=00001-01000&file=120-130

sweetheart continued somewhat aimlessly:

...hand guns are not for anything but murder...

What about self-defense? That's what the police and a lot of other people use them for. What about target shooting?

I'd accept a total ban on handguns and automatics and bores larger
than 20 mm. Nobody needs a bullett bigger than 20mm for home use.


Did you know that automatic weapons ("machineguns") have been tightly regulated since 1934, or that anything with a bore over .50 caliber (that's about 12.7 mm) is considered a "destructive device" and also tightly regulated under current federal law?

You might want to take a look at what laws are already in place before diving into this discussion. Start at http://www.atf.gov/firearms/index.htm

That said, another interpretation of the second, is that we should
all have nuclear weapons.


I say we give sweetheart a Mulligan on that McFeeb's Law violation.

Welcome to the Gungeon sweetheart.
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. Nicely done
though maybe a bit harsh. Reminded me of a hungry mosquito and my half naked 3 year old :) Welts as far as the eye can see, and in places you'd rather not scratch!
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #51
99. Armed militia?
And what the hell is McFeeb's Law? And why should anyone feel bound to abide by it?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. No goalpost moves, please
Edited on Mon Aug-23-04 07:41 PM by slackmaster
I was responding to sweetheart, who did not include the qualifier "armed".

FWIW the population at large IS armed anyway.

And what the hell is McFeeb's Law? And why should anyone feel bound to abide by it?

It's a corollary of Godwin's Law and otherwise known as "Nuclear Straw Man". Ignore it at the risk of having people think you are presenting a weak argument that somehow resembles their actual position and attacking that instead of their actual position.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. Tee hee hee....
"Ignore it at the risk of having people think you are presenting a weak argument"
Which people?
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #100
102. Standard tactic...
How many of the pop at large has more than 200 rounds in their inventory. If we do, it is an arsenal.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #100
106. We've been through this before.
Arms of any kind are irrelevant to an unarmed militia. For the existence of a militia to confer a RKBA, that militia would have to be armed as defined. It doesn't count if some of the members happen to have arms. That's the law as the courts currently interpret it.

As for McFeeb's law, nuclear weapons are in fact a kind of arms. Better than that, they are military weapons, meeting the criteria that some try to impose on the Miller decision. Now you and I both know that you yourself are not an RKBA absolutist, but private ownership of nukes is a respectable rebuttal to those who are. Once again, you guys can't just make up a "law" and expect everybody else to abide by it.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #106
109. My answer to those who invoke the Nuclear Straw Man
If you really want a nuclear weapon, you have the money to buy one, and you can get through all the paperwork, AND YOU REALLY WANT ONE then I have no objection to you acquiring one. I have yet to meet any individual who meets all of those criteria.

Once again, you guys can't just make up a "law" and expect everybody else to abide by it.

I didn't "make up" the sections of the California Military and Veterans Code that defines the militia as essentially every able-bodied person. Not everything a militia does necessarily involves arms. I responded to a Gungeon newbie's comment exactly as it was written.

Perhaps you could point us to a law that prohibits private ownership of nuclear weapons.

:nuke:
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #109
111. The Treaty on Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.
Signed in 1968, ratified in 1969, entered into force 1970.

http://www.state.gov/t/np/trty/16281.htm

Article I
Each nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty undertakes not to transfer to any recipient whatsoever nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices or control over such weapons or explosive devices directly, or indirectly; and not in any way to assist, encourage, or induce any non-nuclear weapon State to manufacture or otherwise acquire nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices, or control over such weapons or explosive devices. (italics mine)

BTW, sorry I wasn't clear. I was referring to McFeeb's "law", not the California Military and Veteran's Code, as made up. As for the code, a militia for the purpose of heaving sandbags is not an armed militia, and arms of any kind are utterly irrelevant to it. And again, not just my opinion - see Silveira.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #111
114. The treaty restricts a subset of suppliers of nuclear weapons
It doesn't say squat about people or anyone else acquiring them, and it has no say over non-signatories.

As for the code, a militia for the purpose of heaving sandbags is not an armed militia...

Please show us the part of the California Military and Veterans Code that says the purpose of the state militia is to heave sandbags.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #114
116. So in other words...
slack thinks it would be hunky-dory if some fuckwit was to peddle weapons-grade plutonium at gun show....

Always wonderful to see to what absurdities our "pro gun democrats" will go...
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #114
117. What has the California militia done over the last thirty years
other than heave sandbags? Have they had any military training? Weapons training? Have they used arms of any kind whatsoever to perform their duty as a militia?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #117
119. None of the above
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 05:34 PM by slackmaster
AFAIK it hasn't been called up since about 1932, when people were conscripted to do guard duty at the Arizona border.

What difference does that make? The law is still on the books, and every able-bodied citizen is subject to being called up for duty.

How can you keep pretending it's not there?
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #119
123. Plenty of arcane and archaic laws are "still on the books."
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 05:40 PM by library_max
Here's one site among a multitude that will bear this out.

http://www.loonylaws.com/

It doesn't mean they're being enforced, and it doesn't mean they have any relevance in the real modern world.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #123
124. People won't think the law is irrelevant when the Governator calls them up
Consider it obsolete at your own risk.

Guess what state's statutes this one is from:

CHAPTER 431. STATE MILITIA<0>

SUBCHAPTER A. GENERAL PROVISIONS


§ 431.001. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:
(1) "Reserve militia<0>" means the persons liable to
serve, but not serving, in the state military forces.
(2) "State militia<0>" means the state military forces
and the reserve militia<0>.
(3) "State military forces" means the Texas National
Guard, the Texas State Guard, and any other active militia<0> or
military force organized under state law.
(4) "Texas National Guard" means the Texas Army
National Guard and the Texas Air National Guard.
Underlining added for emphasis.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #124
126. Except that it will never, never happen.
Not here and not there. And the truth of that is demonstrated by the fact that there is no training, no provision for training, no provision for arming, and no provision for organization or command of this "militia."

When your governor, or mine or anybody's, starts buying weapons for the state militia to use and/or starts organizing and training said militia, then I'll consider the possibility that the armed citizen militia may make a comeback. Until then, it's a horse-and-buggy law.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #109
122. What paperwork?
could you point us to the paperwork one would need to go through to legally obtain a nuke? And what would they hunt with it: whole populations of bigfoot?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #122
130. A nuclear bomb, just like any other explosive device...
...would qualify as a "destructive device".

See http://www.atf.gov/ for everything you need to know about buying a destructive device.

could you point us to the paperwork one would need to go through to legally obtain a nuke?

No, I don't have time to look up everything related to lawful acquisition, transportation, and storage of fissionable materials. Do your own homework if you are really interested.

And what would they hunt with it: whole populations of bigfoot?

I don't know and I don't care. The point is there is no law prohibiting an individual from having a nuclear bomb.

:nuke:
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #130
131. My guess is, there is none
because it is illegal. But maybe that's just too sensible to be true... please enlighten me if I am wrong.

What was that I heard once about extraordinary claims...
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #131
132. Your comment makes no sense whatsoever
You're saying there is no law prohibiting a person from having a nuclear weapon "because it is illegal".

Perhaps you don't understand how the legal system works in this country. Here's the short version:

Everything that is not specifically prohibited is legal.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #132
133. No, I was saying that when it comes to
the paperwork needed to obtain a nuke, my guess is there isn't any, because it is illegal to obtain a nuke.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #133
134. It is NOT illegal to obtain a nuke
If you believe I am mistaken please cite the law or regulation that says an indidvidual can't have one.

:nuke:
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #134
139. Uranium in the US is regulated by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
So there's where you'd send your application, I guess. Good luck with that.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #139
140. I didn't say it was easy or even necessarily possible for an individual
Nobody is going to get a nuclear bomb just to set off on the 4th of July.

I'm sure the expense and licensing requirements put nuclear devices out of the hands of anyone who can't afford an army of lawyers. And that's how it should be IMO. If some day an entrepreneur comes up with a legitimate industrial use for a nuclear bomb it should be possible to obtain one.
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Spinzonner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 05:40 AM
Response to Original message
42. I stand on the second Amendment ...

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

... that is doesn't serve as the justification for gun ownership that the advocates would have you believe.

The Supreme Court has never ruled that is is an absolute, unconditional right to gun ownership as the extremists would have one believe. Granted, they are 'gun shy' of even dealing with it in a final way. If a literal interpretation were justified, then a ban on machine Gun ownership or even a restriction would be in contradiction to it.

And, of course, there is the troublesome word 'arms'. It doesn't say 'pistols', 'guns', 'rifles', 'muskets', 'blunderbusses', or what have you. SO a literal interpretation prevents infringement on ownership of mortars, hand grenades, howitzers, rockets, etc. Perhaps you would be comfortable with your neighbor having those stored in his armory and having you downrange for his target practices.

Then there is the use of the word 'people', not 'persons' as is often sued in other Amendments when enumerating rights of individuals. SO that a strong suggestion that the right may be collective - in the context of a militia - not an individual one.

Now we can have a rational argument on the reasonable rights of law abiding individuals to own guns, whether prohibition of commonly used products is advisable and even works, the effects on society of widely held guns or the opposite. But claiming that the Second Amendment is an unequivocal grant of the right to own any kind of gun one wants is legally and historically bogus.

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jtjathomps Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #42
73. Bearing things
a few problems

well regulated meant 'well functioning' at the time, not goverment regulation. Look it up in a dictionary published at the time.

when you 'bear arms' you carry them. You cannot bear a tank, howitzer, ballistic missle etc.

What about the founding fathers? The federalist papers indicate the true intention of the 2nd amendment.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. We cant really put it into
terms of what the founding fathers knew and understood.....Many wealthy landowners actually had their own light cannon. Also, during the revolution seized british cannon and other heavy weapons.....Like I said earlier. You wont have to worry about another Kent state. Most of us in the military will defend our homes...."re apropriating" as much military hardware as we can get our hands on.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #74
112. Well, if it's any help to you,
every single standing US court case involving the Second Amendment has ruled in favor of the gun control provision at issue and against the gun owner involved. So the legal interpretation of the Second Amendment is pretty well established - it does not provide for an individual RKBA outside of a government-sponsored militia.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
43. I'm all for well regulated state militias
I also think the AWB should be renewed and strengthened...
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
44. For those in the pool...this is TWO
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #44
54. so what's this?

*another* contest I don't know the rules to??

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Oh, this is the pool
to guess how many total "I gotta have an assault weapon or I'll pee myself" threads our trigger-happy gumps are going to start between August 18 and the election...

About nine weeks there...so the over-under's 75....
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. yeah, right

so the over-under's 75....

And now I'm supposed to know what *that* means.

See, guns isn't the only things I'm completely ignorant of.

Now, if I lived in that den of organized iniquity you call a state, I bet I'd know all about guns and gambling, and all manner of other nasty things ...

And just think what I'd know if I lived in, oh, Arkansas, was it?



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. I not only have an opinion...
I'm not a trigger happy blowhard unable to tell one state from another.....
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. LOL
Sorry, New jersey, right? And I am not trigger happy. However, i am a firm believer that as long civilians have arms, then we will not degenerate into a totalitarian police state. Feel free to cower in your home as gangs of armed thugs rove the neighborhood.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Gee, what a preposterous load of horseshit....
"Feel free to cower in your home as gangs of armed thugs rove the neighborhood."
Gee, that's how things are where you are? Over here in America, there's actual laws and sidewalks and stuff...and the only people spouting apocalyptic rubbish are the sor tof paranoid loonies who wear tinfoil hats. Of course, every once in a while some charmer forgets that its just hysterical horseshit from loonies and shoots a postman or blows up a daycare center. It's why assault weapons ought to stay off the market and more stringent gun control is needed.

It's always hilarious to see half-assed internet tough guys try to pretend they're hot shit.....
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. Listen up sparky....
I am an Active Duty US Army Soldier. I do not need to prove anything on these boards. However, if you think this is all pretend, great. I dont happen to live in a gated community, and thanks to the wonderful housing allowance i recieve from the government, I cant afford to live in the best part of town. My car has been vandalized twice, and my house nearly broken into once. Had I not been armed, what would have happened? I have a wife and two daughters. I have their safety to worry about. I called the police after the incident. They showed up almost 30 minutes later, took a desultory report, and never called me back. So, I am glad you live in a safe, happy neighborhood. The rest of us arent so lucky. And as far as psychos that kill kids in Daycare centers...earlier this year a guy in Japan killed eight and wounded fifteen with a butcher knife. Psychos are psychos, requardless of how they arm themselves.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #70
77. Yeah, and Wayne LaPierre is Queen of the May....
"Psychos are psychos, requardless of how they arm themselves"
Hell, some of them spout rubbish on internet discussion boards....we had one on here this time last year who was reporting daily shootouts with the Klan and local law enforcement....

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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. Great.
I hope he got the Psychiatric help he needed. I never claimed to be itching to run around killing fellow americans. That is why I am trying to tell people that the Military is not gonna round them up and put them in Camps. We will fight for the rights of Americans. You cant seem to understand that. You want to make all gun owners out to be post apocalyptic gun nuts who want to go to war in the streets of America. No. We are just the last few who believe in self reliance, and that since the police cant protect us, we want to have the tools to protect ourselves. You will note that I did not claim anywhere on here that I "need" an assault weapon, other than to add to my collection of military arms. Actually, my collection specialty is Military Bolt actions, not assault weapons.

We will just agree to disagree on this subject. You are unable to see my point of view, and I am unable to see yours.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Too too funny....
"You want to make all gun owners out to be post apocalyptic gun nuts who want to go to war in the streets of America. No. We are just the last few who believe in self reliance, and that since the police cant protect us, we want to have the tools to protect ourselves."
Uh-HUH.....
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Did you have a comment
or just trying out your cut and paste?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. Yeah, I did...and I made it...
SSDD....
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. How astute....
did that thought come to you as you were warming up your hotpocket, or directly after....Law abiding gun owners are not a threat to your liberty. You sir, however, are a threat to ours.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #83
88. I don't think anybody said you were

Law abiding gun owners are not a threat to your liberty.

Some of you do, however, turn out to be a threat to some of our lives.

Hell, some of you even follow through on that threat, and KILL PEOPLE.

But oops, then they aren't "law abiding gun owners" anymore, so don't worry, be happy.

You sir, however, are a threat to ours.

Yeah. And so are all those people who voted for governments that made all those gazillions of other laws that tell you what you can't do. Life's a bitch, eh?

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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. Great, a CutnPaste
Bandit. Look, let me make things easier for you. I am actually a fat white fifty year old republican spy sent here to disrupt the sanctity of these forums. You have found me out.....Loser.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #92
94. Gee, and we're supposed to be surprised?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #83
93. Bullshit....
"Law abiding gun owners"
Where are those? All we see here in the gungeon are childish blowhards who have no respect for law, outright contempt for law enforcement, a raging hatred of Democrats, a gun fetish, and a mouthful of right wing horseshit.

"You sir, however, are a threat to ours."
Horseshit.

"Let the eagle soar-r-r-r-r
Let's pretend we're liberals and roar-r-r-r-r-r
The same stale crap as befor-r-r-r-r-re
"

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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #93
103. At any point during this childish tirade
did you intend to make sense? Have I ever advocated going to war with anyone in my own private Rambo style spree?

No, I havent. I suspect you have never fired a gun, touched a gun, or seen a gun outside of a movie.

I dont resort to name calling. Am I what you would call a liberal democrat. I am also not a skinhead NeoNazi right winger either. Personally, I feel that I am allowed by the Constitution to defend myself. Try to stick to topic, instead of trying to pick a fight.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #103
105. Gee, I haven't been the one with the childish tirade here....
"I suspect you have never fired a gun, touched a gun, or seen a gun"
And you're as wrong there as you are about everything else....but it's wonderful to see that this idiotic superstition continues that the mere touch of a fetish object can cause one to become a chilidsh prat unable to distinguish between selfish desire and the public's safety.

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Thanos Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
53. Pro-Gun
Totally pro-gun and also totally anti-crime.

Maybe someone can answer this question for me, why is it that a felon still has the rights of "freedom of speech", "freedom of religion", and "freedom of the press" but loses his/her "right to bear arms?"

- Thanos
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #53
63. That is a thorny one.
Personally, i feel that once someone has repaid their debt to society, they should be returned all of their rights and priveleges. But your average American suburbanite is spineless, and willing would trade away all their freedom if they could just be sure someone wasnt going to steal their gas guzzling escalade.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #63
89. or ...

But your average American suburbanite is spineless, and willing would trade away all their freedom if they could just be sure someone wasnt going to steal their gas guzzling escalade.

... shoot their kid. Same difference I guess. A kid that gets shot is obviously just a future spineless suburbanite. If the parents weren't spineless, they'd get the kid a gun for christmas and tell it to shoot first.

Or something.



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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #63
120. Those spineless bastards!
Well it's good to know that there are heroes like you who are prepared to welcome a former felon to steal their SUVs or commit miscellaneous other crimes on their person or property.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #53
115. Well, let's see.
First of all, there is no such thing as a right to bear arms outside the context of the armed citizen militia (government-organized and government-run militia). US v. Miller and every Second Amendment case since has established that.

Second, a felon is highly unlikely to go on a killing spree using his freedom of speech, freedom of religion, or freedom of the press.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
76. This is getting old......
Edited on Sat Aug-21-04 01:10 AM by happyslug
This has been argued and argued and argued on these boards, many of old timers have just left the Gun Dungeon because we end up making the same arguments and hearing the same arguments. Once in a while I see something new, but it is getting rarer and rarer. Anyway I am going to re-post my paper on the Second Amendment and Gun Control. I generally support gun rights but lets us remember that the two extreme sides to the Gun Control issue are undefendable

LEFT WING EXTREME: You can not restrict Weapons to the Police and Military. To do so is to require TAXPAYERS to pay for protecting BANKS and other businesses that presently hire private guards for protection. Do you want your TAX DOLLARS protecting Banks more than those Dollars are protecting you? Another set of problems is how will Rural America kill pests? permit increase use of poisons (with the increase deaths of Animals NOT harming the farmer's crops)? Have State Police men go to small subsidize farms to butcher their hogs and Cattle? Restricting Guns to the Police and Military sounds OK, but just can not work.

RIGHT WING EXTREME: Complete access to Firearms. This is just as bad as the above argument, do we want so nut who just escaped from an asylum to be able to go to a local hardware and buy a gun? An Escaped Criminal? The answer is NO. Do we want a person released on bail for a felony to get a Firearm? Harder call, but if we fear he will use it to harm the wittinesses against him no (I know existing law prohibits ANY felon from having a firearm, I only mention this extreme situation to show that complete access to firearms will NOT work).

Thus the problem with Gun Control is not if one is for it or against it (people should be for it to some degree), the REAL ISSUE IS THE EXTENT THAT FIREARMS SHOULD BE RESTRICTED. This not only goes to WHO may own a weapon but what weapons a person can own. I go into this in more detail below but that is the REAL issue NOT if we should or should not have Gun Control.

Now the paper I copied below starts with the Second Amendment, I did that because any Gun Control Law has to address at least the issue of the Second and what (if any) restriction the Second puts on the Federal, State and Local Governments on passing Gun Control Laws.


Some basic concepts behind the Second Amendment.

To truly understand the Second you must look at the time period it was written AND WHY IT WAS PUT INTO THE BILL OF RIGHTS. The first step in this process is to look at what Alexander Hamilton wrote in Federalist No 29. Hamilton writes in Federalist 29 that he would prefer two different classes of Militia. The first (and preferred by Hamilton), the one Hamilton calls a "select corps" of paid Militiamen (much like our present National Guard) and would have used it like we use the present day Army Reserve and National Guard.

As to the rest of the Militia (now referred to as the "reserve Militia"), Hamilton put a lower value on it but even to Hamilton it had some value:

"Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year"

Thus he accepted that the Militia (other than select Militia he wanted) would rarely be used in combat roles (except in extreme emergencies) but instead would be used to secure roadways, dig entrenchments (which they did at Yorktown, while the Regular Troops trained).

The Militia would also clean up the battlefield after the battle (as the Pennsylvania Militia did after Gettysburg, and this can last for months, as it did after Gettysburg). By assuming these duties, the Militia relieved the regular army of such duties.

A recent examples of this was the Mississippi River Floods of the early 1990s, when the local populations came out to work on the levies. This was the Militia coming into action. These volunteers were not called “Militia” by the media, nor the politicians, nor the military (and not even by the participates themselves). The same with the personal on the plane that crashed in Somerset County Pennsylvania on 9-11. The personal "activated" themselves and went into combat (with nothing but their bare hands as "arms"). An enemy had appeared and the Militia mobilized to fight them and DID defeat these enemies (and died in the process, but further loss of life was avoided).

Could regular troops have done it better if they had been on the Plane? I hope so (they have superior training), but as Hamilton points out in Federalist 29, training EVERYONE for such a contingency would be a waste of most people’s time and money. It is better to give the Militia minimal training (and make sure they have their equipment) and hope they do an adequate job than to waste the time and money to train every Militiamen to be as good as a regular soldier. 99% of the Militiamen would never use the training and thus would be a waste of time and money.

On the other hand, when needed, getting the Militia together with needed equipment. Such equipment can be arms, or shovels or buckets depending on the threat but that the “Militia” must have some “Tools” to use to defeat the threat is self-evident (i.e. you can not fill sandbags without a shovel, or fight without a weapon). Thus it is more important that the Militia have equipment than any proper training for with equipment you can than form the Militia into something that can be used. Once formed than and only than can training begin (Which can be as simple as how to fill a sandbag to re-enforce a river levy).

Thus the big issue is getting the Militia members togther, for once togther you can start training (and planing) for what may be needed (which may be anything from anti-tank defense to Anti-flood defense, or even re-taking the plane the militia are on). Your plans will depend on what you have in troops (and their equipment). The better equipped the Militia are the better, but any equipment is better than no equipment.

One last point, The Federalist Papers pre-date the Bill of Rights (but post-date the Original Constitution). Thus Hamilton's argument is in defense of the Constitution without a bill of rights (including the second). I merely bring it up to show you how at least one writer of the time believe how the Militia should be organized (and also points out his plan was rejected by Congress when Congress did organized the Militia in 1792).

For the Federalist papers:
http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/federalist /

The Militia Act of 1792:
http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_act_1792.htm

10 USC 311 (Present version of the Militia Act):
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/311.html

Patrick Henry and the Militia and the Constitution
http://www.constitution.org/rc/rat_va_13.htm#henry-09
http://www.constitution.org/rc/rat_va_13.htm#henry-10

Speeches of Patrick Henry and the Constitution (Good site for Henry’s comments, but remember the site is a right wing absolutist property right site so be careful. Please also note Patrick Henry was NOT an absolutist property person, perferring right to the common person but the right wing will steal anyone it can, look at how they quote Jefferson):
http://www.constitution.org/afp/phenry00.htm

Please note one of the chief objections to the original constitution is that it gave SOLE power to organize the Militia to the Federal Government (See Article1, Section 8, Clause 16 of the US Constitution). The fear was that the Federal Government would organize only part of the Militia (that was loyal to the Central Government as opposed to being loyal to the people) and that since the Federal Government had SOLE right to organize, the states and the people could not organize that part of the Militia not organized by the Federal Government. The wording of the Second Amendment was to address this problem (and to preserve the right of the Federal Government to organize the Militia). Thus the Second was worded BOTH to preserve the Obligation of the Federal Government to Organize the Militia AND the right of the People (and the states) to organize that part of the Militia the Federal Government did not (or refuse to) organize.

Thus under the Second, the Federal Government retains the right to organize the Militia (or whatever part it wants to organize). The States (and the People) retain the right to organize that part of the Militia NOT organized by the Federal Government. The simple fact is that the only way the States and the people could form themselves into Militia against wishes of the Federal Government would be if the People had access to arms. Thus the Right to Bare Arms is the right reserved to the people so that the States (and the People themselves independent of the State) can form a Militia if it is needed and the Federal Government refuses to organize the Militia.

Do not think this was academic, Pennsylvania was the only Colony without a Militia Law from its founding in 1689 till 1759. From William Penn’s treaty with the local Indians till the Long Walk of 1737 no Militia was needed, you had peace in Pennsylvania and the Indians were friendly. In 1737 the decedents of William Penn decided to finally take the last of the Land given to William Penn by the Indians. The Treaty had said Penn’s land grant extended one day walk from the junction of Delaware and Lehigh Rivers. The Indians believed this was for a normal walk at a normal pace of about 20 miles.

The Penns wanted more land than just 20 miles so their imported five "speed walkers" (those person’s who race but never break into a running stride, but stay in a walking stride a type of race still run in certain locations). The Penns than told the Indians that thee men will pace the “one day walk”. The Men started at Daybreak on June 20th (The longest day of the year) to give them the maximum time walking). The Indians claimed they had to run to keep up, but the Penns gained about 60 miles worth of land to sell instead of the 20 miles the Indians thought their had agreed to. The Delawares and Shawnees complained, but the Iroquois accepted the results of this thief, and is referred to as the "long walk". Since the land was technically Iroquoian, the Delaware and Shawnee had to accept the decision of the Iroquois (In the inner- tribal wars of the 1600s the Delaware had been defeated by the Iroquois and their land became Iroquoian land, while the Shawnee had been permitted to live on the same land by the Iroquois for their had no land of their own since their left Cuba in the 1500s). http://www.tolatsga.org/dela.html

What is all of this leading up to? While when the French Declared War on England in 1745, both the Delaware and Shawnees were easy for the French to recruit to attack the Settlements on the Pennsylvania Frontier. Both tribes attacked the Settlements not only in the 1745 war, but the 1754-1763 French and Indian War. Pennsylvania was controlled by Quakers who, while wiling to sell the lands their had stolen from the Indians to the people on the Frontier, did not want to raise any form of Army even a Militia army. Thus the Frontier was left on its own. Ben Franklin realized this was a problem, but could not convince the Colonial Assembly to even build a fort to protect Philadelphia from a French Naval Attack (Given the Hurricane Season in the Caribbean, it was a policy of both Britain and France to keep their fleet out of the Caribbean from July through October. This reduced the chance that the Fleet may be destroyed by a hurricane and also reduced the losses of life do to Yellow Fever. Thus the French Fleet went by ALL of the American Colonies at least twice a year, either time the Fleet could just move in and take any unprotected city, such as Philadelphia. Even with this threat, the Assembly refused to fund any military preparations. So Ben Franklin organized the people of Philadelphia into an "Association" to build a fort on Governors Island just south of Philadelphia. The purpose of the Fort was NOT to stop the French Fleet but to give warning if the fleet was coming to Philadelphia and to delay the Fleet long enough to vacate Philadelphia before the French fleet could take Philadelphia.

After Ben Franklin did the above in 1745, he urged the people of the frontier to from similar “Associations” to protect themselves against the Indian attacks. The frontiersman did form themselves and stayed that way INDEPENDENT OF THE GOVERNMENT OF PENNSYLVANIA till 1759, when Pennsylvania had a mini-revolution (by election) that kicked out the Quakers and put in people who had formed these "Associations". The new General Assembly than took these organizations over and form the First Pennsylvania Militia (And this would not be the first time the Militia would be the heart of a move to democracy, the democratic movement of the Post-Revolutionary Period also came out of the Militia as did the Whiskey Rebellion of 1792-1794) .

The point of the above was the people of the Colonies were familiar with the possibility of a Government NOT forming the Militia even when such formation was needed. Much of the opposition to the Constitution came out of Pennsylvania. I live in Western Pennsylvania and even today some people are proud that 26 of 27 delegates to the State Convention to ratify the US Constitution voted against it, and the fact we burned the house of the one person who voted for the Constitution during the subsequent Whiskey Rebellion.

This opposition to the Constitution without a bill of Rights reflected that it had only been 40 years earlier when the Government of Pennsylvania had refused to form the Militia when it was needed. Thus Pennsylvanians (and residents of other states) knew it was possible that a government may NOT organize the Militia when the Militia was needed. Thus the wording of the Second amendment was to reflect NOT only that the States could form the Militia but the people could also form the Militia their had done in Pennsylvania from 1745 till 1759.

Miller and the Court Cases

Miller is the 1939 Case involving the Federal Firearms Act. It is an interesting case. If you read it please note the procedure and standard of review the Supreme Court was using in that case.

When Miller was arrested for having a shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches (and thus banned under the Federal Firearm Act) he made the contention at his arraignment that the weapon was a militia weapon and thus protected under the Second, THE TRIAL COURT ACCEPTED THIS ARGUMENT AND DISMISSED THE CHARGE AGAINST MILER.

Now, since this was a dismissal PRIOR to any trial, the Rule of Law in such a dismissal is the Judge MUST accept all of the facts in favor of the non-moving party (In the case of Miller the US Government) and rule that even if the Government proved all of its facts the government would still lose. The trial judge ruled that a shotgun with a barrel of less than 18 inches was a military usable weapon given that such weapon had ben used in WWI.

On Appeal from that type of dismissal, the same rule applies. i.e. all facts are held in the Government favor. In Miller the US Supreme Court ruled that the FACT that any particular gun had military usability and thus comes under the Second is a finding of fact reserved to a Jury and thus the Trial Judge erred in finding that the shotgun in question had military usability as a finding of law. The Supreme Court sent the case back to the trial Court with an order that the Trial Court to hold a hearing where a Jury was to decide if the Weapon was a military weapon. Only if the Jury ruled it to be a military weapon was the Judge to rule on the Application of the Second Amendment to the weapon.

In simple terms the Court ruled whether a weapon comes under the Second or not is a question of fact left to a jury NOT a question of Law reserve to A judge.


http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0801/08...

http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/academy/9884/bp_Mill...

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendme... /

For the Miller case itself:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=...


CRIME AND FIREARMS

The above was on the CONSTITUTIONALITY of Gun Control NOT whether Gun Control would do any good at reducing crime (or otherwise make the Country Safer). On the point of reducing crime we need to look at WHAT weapon is being used in Crime. If you look at the 2001 FBI Crime Statistics available from the FBI Crime Statistics you will see table 2.10. It is an interesting table. Out of that table the following facts are reported for the year 2001:

13,752 people were murdered in 2001,
8719 by Firearms (63% of all Murders).

6790 were Murdered by handguns (49% of All Murders, 78% of all murder by Firearms)
389 by Rifles (2.8% of all Murders 4.5% of all Murders by Firearms)
497 by Shotguns (3.6% of all Murders, 5.7% of all Murders with Firearms)
985 by “Firearms type not stated”
All together 14% of all Murders are done with non-handgun firearms (which for this number includes not only Rifles and Shotguns, but also the “other” category and “Firearms Type Not Stated”)

1796 by Knives 13% of all Murders
925 By “Personal Weapons” i.e hands, Fists, feet etc 6.7% of all Murders
661 by “Blunt Instruments” Clubs, hammers etc. 4.8% of all Murders
152 by Strangulation 1.1% of all Murders
112 by Asphyxiation. 0.8% of all Murders
104 by Fire 0.7% of all Murders

Thus Knives, and “Personal Weapons” (i.e. hands, fists, feet,) are used more often to Murder people than are Rifles and/or Shotguns. Clubs, hammers and other “Blunt Instruments” exceed the number of people Killed by Rifles OR Shotguns. (Please note “Personal Weapons” only rose above the combined Shotgun and Rifle numbers of victim in 2000 and 2001, from 1997 through 1999 “Personal Weapons” were just slightly above the COMBINED numbers of people murdered by Shotguns and/or rifles).

Basically the weapon most used in Murder is a Pistol, followed by a Knife. Even if the “Other” and “Firearms type not stated” do not include any pistols (something I seriously doubt) all firearms other than pistols are used less often than are knives to kill people. Thus the weapon of choice for criminals is a pistol (followed by the knife).

That is about right, for both handguns and knives are both easy to conceal on a person’s body and thus a weapon that can be used without the victim having any time to defend (or even prepare) themselves. Shotguns and Rifles like Machine Guns and Rockets, are hard to conceal and thus rarely used in crime. This was true of automatic weapons even before such “Machine Guns” were outlawed in 1934. (Yes I Know Capone's gang used Thompson Sub Machine Guns and Bonnie and Clyde like their M1918 BAR, but most of those weapons were obtained from raiding local Police Stations not illegal or legal sales. Very few Machine Guns and Rockets have been used illegally, not because such weapons were NOT wanted by Criminals, there are just to hard to hide compared to Pistols and thus NOT usable by most criminals).

As one person told me years ago, when he sees a hunter with a Rifle, he knows the Hunter has the ability to kill him at any time, but unlike someone who had a pistol he knows that fact from the first time he sees the Hunter and has more than enough time to take pre-cautions. This is the reason pistols MUST be heavier regulated than other weapons. Given the Nature of the Second Amendment (as I explained above) such restrictions ON PISTOLS are perfectly acceptable under the Second.

While Rifles, Shotguns, and even Machine Guns and Rockets have much higher military usability than pistols, all of them are used way less in crimes than are Pistols and Knives. Thus if you believe in Crime Control, it would be better to regulate knives before you regulate Rifles and/or Shotguns. Knives are used in greater numbers. Furthermore given the numbers for people who use “Hands, Fists and Feet” as weapons (and these numbers EXCEED the numbers for Rifles or Shotguns, I just can NOT justify regulating such weapons.

THE USE OF FIREARMS

One last comment, while I believe ownership of such weapons can not be banned (except for pistols as I stated in a earlier thread) the USE of such weapons is NOT protected by the Second and the law has long set forth a strict liability rule if a weapon is used and someone is hurt. Any body's interpretation of the Second Amendment does not change that strict liability rule and to my knowledge no one is advocating abolishment of that rule.

Now strict liability does not extend to storage of a weapon (through some states have expanded the rule to cover inadequate storage) and thus if a weapon is stolen, you are no more liable for its misuse than if someone stole your car. The Second Amendment only address the right to own, NOT the right to abuse the right to own.

Right to Bear Arms Independent of the Second

Right now people who dislike the idea that Constitutional rights not mentioned in the Bill of Rights exists control the Supreme Court. Examples of such rights include the Right to Privacy and the Right to an abortion. Neither right is clearly stated in the Bill of Rights. Justices Rehnquist, Scalia and Thomas have all expressed opposition to such Constitutional Rights based on the premise that such Rights are NOT listed.

Thus if you get away from the Second Amendment (and the militia clause in the body of the Constitution) you are on very thin ice. Abortion and Privacy may be able to get five votes on the Supreme Court to be preserved, but will a "Right" to Bear Arms NOT based on the Second Amendment? While such a right may exist (and I have read the literature that clearly shows the right to bear arms did exist prior to the Bill of Rights), you have at least three votes against it (Rehnquist, Scalia and Thomas) based on the premise that if a right is not listed it is NOT a right (Scalia and Thomas I believe will vote for RKBA but only because the Second, not independent of the Second).

Given these three votes, their only need to pick up two more votes out of six to say no such right exist outside the Second. Two more votes out of the reminding six will not be hard to find given the compensation of the Supreme Court today.

That is why people prefer to base their rights on what is written in the Bill of Rights. It is harder for the Supreme Court to ignore.

One last comment, I always bring up PLESSY v. FERGUSON, 163 U.S. 537 (1896) in these debates for it is the classic Supreme Court case where the court defers to the legislature on Constitutional grounds.

In Plessey the Court basically ruled that since the State of Louisiana knew of the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments to the Constitution when it passed a law segregating blacks from whites, the State of Louisiana must have review those amendments and after review believe the act was constitutional.

The Court than says that "Separate but Equal" meets the requirements of 13th, 14th and 15th amendments since none of them EXPRESSLY outlawed separating the races, only discriminating against them and that just separating the races must have been the ONLY intention of Louisiana.

Everyone knew better, but the Court still ruled that it had to defer to the state legislature that anything a state passes was constitutional unless a law EXPRESSLY violates the Constitution. Furthermore the court ruled that the burden of showing such constitutional violation is on the person challenging the law not the state (or federal Congress) that passed the law.

Plessey is a warning to people. The court will not protect individual rights against a determined federal and state attack on those rights. The Court will look for any way to minimize the right or even gut them completely if that is what the majority of Congress or the states want (And if the court members themselves what that result).

It is harder for the court to gut a right if the violation is of a WRITTEN right. The warning from Plessey is that the Court will even gut a written right for 56 years (and only reversed itself given the Civil Rights movement and the Holocaust of WWII both showed the Court WHY the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments had been passed and WHY their were needed to be enforced even against popular opposition).

The same can happen to the Second Amendment; the Court can gut it very easily if the Court wants to. It will be harder given the language of the Second than the 13th, 14th and 15th were under Plessey, but not impossible.

One way to undermine the whole Bill of Rights is to permit congress to re-define "Militia" anyway Congress (or a state) wants to. For example define "Militia is those person who are approved to be members of the Militia by the Office of Homeland Security (OHS)".

Such an act, if accepted by the Court would gut the Second Amendment. This is a fear not limited to the Second, a similar re-definition of "Press" to be “those persons approved by OHS to be members of the Press". "Religion" to be "those religions approved by OHS" or even to "petition" to be "Petitions of Congress must go through the OHS first and be approved by OHS…" Such re-definitions would gut the First Amendment.

Thus defense of ANY constitutional right cannot be left to the hands of just the Supreme Court. A good first step would be for the Court to define what the term "Militia" means AND that only the Court not Congress can define what a term used in the Bill of Rights means.

This is only a first step, we also need to remind Congress and the People what ALL of THEIR rights are and to enlist the people to stop any violation of any right before such a violation is enacted.

To do so we cannot lie to ourselves what those rights ARE and what those rights ARE NOT. Thus my earlier thread of the Second NOT covering pistols (but covering assault rifles). We cannot lie to ourselves and we cannot lie to other people. On the other hand we MUST fight to stop any infringements of our rights. That is the warning of Plessey, you can NOT rely on the Court to protect any right.

Mental Competence?

Maybe I am getting jaded, but why do people keep saying they want people to be “mentally competent” (whatever that means) to own a firearm when there is no such requirement for 2-4 ton potential murder device almost every one owns? (I.e a personal automobile). Furthermore no such requirements is being proposed for ownership of one of the deadliest high explosives know to man (i.e Gasoline)

The reason we do NOT regulate gasoline is simple, if we did many people would be ruled “Not Competent” to operate a vehicle. One of the jobs often mention in Social Security Hearings is grounds keepers, even as a job for people who can not drive. If we regulated gasoline like Firearms many of these jobs will be closed to such persons and as such unemployable. The Federal Government does not want that, it wants such people working so they are permitted around gasoline.

The same fact with Automobiles, if a sizable part of the populations could no longer have access to a car (do to a higher level of Competency than what exists now) People will have to use Public Transportation, but these are the part of the population least able to use or pay for public transportation. Again you run up costs, costs that are hidden by leaving such people drive cars today.

Thus mental Competency is a very Minimal standard for the reason that if it was higher the Government (Both Federal and State) would have increased costs to house and feed these people. By calling them “Competent” the Government has no obligations to feed or house them and thus they cause no costs to the Government.

Militia, State Guard and the National Guard

Now most states have “Militia”, "State Guard" an “National Guard” units, at least on the books. Typical is Pennsylvania, Here are Statutes authorizing the "Militia" and "Pennsylvania Guard" (See also The history of Military Intervention in the US).

51 Pa.C.S. § 301 (2002)
(a) PENNSYLVANIA MILITIA.--THE MILITIA OF THIS COMMONWEALTH SHALL CONSIST OF:
(1) all able-bodied citizens of the United States and all other able-bodied persons who have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, residing within this Commonwealth, who are at least 17 years six months of age and, except as hereinafter provided, not more than 55 years of age; and
(2) such other persons as may, upon their own application, be enlisted or commissioned therein.

(b) PENNSYLVANIA Naval Militia.--the Naval Militia of this Commonwealth, when organized pursuant to rules and regulations promulgated by the Governor, shall consist of those persons as may, upon their own application, be enlisted or commissioned therein.

51 Pa.C.S. § 1301 (2002)- Composition of Pennsylvania Guard
The Pennsylvania Guard shall consist of such units as may be prescribed by the Governor.

51 Pa.C.S. § 1302 (2002)
§ 1302. Designation and change of location of units
The Governor shall designate the location of the several organizations and units and may change the same at his discretion. Organizations and units shall be located wherever practicable in armories owned by the Commonwealth.

Now, the state did have some "Pennsylvania Guard" units till 1959, when Governor Lawrence merged them into the National Guard (He wanted to save money, and most state have abolished “State Guard” units for the same reason).

To understand the relationship between the "Militia" the "State Guard" and the "National Guard" you must first understand how the Militia developed (or more accurately declined) from the "Militia Act of 1792" to the "National Guard Act of 1903".

With the end of the Indian threat with the Death of Tecumseh in 1814, the Militia formed under the Militia Act of 1792 went into a slow deterioration north of the Mason Dixon Line (We will address the Militia of the South from 1815 till 1865 separately) . In this time period (1815-1860) most Northern States kept dropping the fine for not attending drills to discourage attendance to Militia Drills (the states rather have the money from the fine rather than see the Militia drill).

Most Northern States eventually adopted a zero (0) fine and replaced it with a head tax (some people would STILL show up for drill duty rather than pay the fine no matter HOW low the fine was). By the time of the Civil War the Militia of the US was a dead and empty idea. No one had tried to keep it alive.

Thus by 1860 the Militia north of the Mason and Dixon line was dead for all practical purposes, much like it is dead today (Through the Militia Act of 1792 was still on the Books and would remain on the books till long after the passage of the "National Guard Act of 1903". In fact the Militia referred to in the Militia Act of 1792 is still in the Statute Books in the above state statute and Federal statutes).

In the South the Militia was tied in with the Sheriff’s Patrol and the Patrol’s main purpose of keeping the Black Slaves from escaping. The Militia was also the main tool of the Southern State’s efforts to suppress “maroons” i.e. escaped Blacks living in isolated hidden areas of the South. Between these two functions the Militia in the South stayed healthier than the Northern Militia but it even declined given its main function of slave suppression (Through one of the reason for the the early success of the South in The Civil War was that the Southern Militia had stayed a live between 1815 and 1860).

Against this back ground of the decline of the Militia during the period 1815-1860 a desire for a more professional part time unit was demanded by Middle Class Americans (This demand was in both North and South). Given that the US Constitution gave sole control over the Militia to the Federal Government, and Congress had decided NOT to do anything after passing the 1792 Militia Act, the states could NOT adopt a different form of Militia from the one set forth in the Militia Act of 1792 (even if the state wanted to).

To fill this void, military clubs were formed. These clubs purchased their own uniforms and weapons (sometime with additional funds from the State and Federal Government, but no change in the underlaying Militia Act). These clubs/units referred themselves as the "National Guard" starting on August 16, 1824 when Lafayette landed at Castle Garden on Manhattan. For his arrival in New York City. One such “club” took the name of a Regiment of the “Garde Nationale”, which Lafayette had commanded after the storming of the Bastille. This “Regiment” formed a Honor Guard for Lafayette on his trip in New York City. Subsequently, other such Regiments/Clubs adopted the name of the National Guard in his honor (and to deferent themselves from the regular Militia, which was in rapid decline by that date).

Given the legal theories of the time period these units had to stayed out of the control of the State for they were viewed as "State Troops" and Congress had not authorized the States to have them (as required in the US Constitution). Now many such units did receive money from the States and even the Federal Government, but as part of the appropriation process NOT as a change in any underlaying Statute.

During the Civil War, most of these National Guard units volunteered for Federal Service (Except in the South where the units tended to be the formation of the Southern Army). Once these units were in Federal Service and what remained of the Militia had been called out, the states realized they needed troops to protect themselves while the Federal Army was away. To solve this problem new units were formed by the states out of the remaining citizens of the states into "State Guard" units. These were the Old Militia come back to life, but in a more structured way, furthermore they tended to be all-volunteer units as opposed to the draftee/universal service nature of the Militia.

Both the State Guard and State Militia were used with great effect during the Civil War, especially during the invasion of Pennsylvania that lead to Gettysburg. After the Civil War these units were discharged and not re-formed for Congress again refused to re-form the Militia or to take over the National Guard and the State Guards. The Militia quickly died again, the Guard units were dissolved OR reverted to their previous status of being independent clubs (through the states would provide more money after the Civil War than before).

This lasted about a year (In some states decades) but Pennsylvania wanted to maintain its "Army" it had fielded during the Civil War (This had more to do with maintaining political power by appointing a lot of "Generals" than maintaining a strong "Army", but that is getting off the topic).

Since Congress did not act at authorizing Pennsylvania to keep its Civil War Divisions, Pennsylvania decided to push the definition of "Militia" to its limit. Pennsylvania formed 27 Divisions (through each “Division” only had about 100 men in each "Division" unlike today’s Army Divisions of about 15,000 men per Division). Pennsylvania than said these were NOT state troops but the Pennsylvania Militia. These 27 Divisions lasted just a few years till Pennsylvania re-formed these "Divisions" into 27 Companies of just one Division. From the formation of this Division in 1873 till 1898 (and the Spanish-American War), the Pennsylvania National Guard was the largest military unit in North America. The regular US Army was about the same overall size, but its units were never formed above regimental level. (For you non-military people out there at the time period we are discussing it was normal to have 2-3 Regiments to a Brigade, and 2-3 Brigades to a Division. This is to show you the size of the Pennsylvania Division. A regiment had about 800-1000 men in it in the late 1800s).

No change had been made in the Militia Act of 1792 (Which was a FEDERAL STATUTE) but Pennsylvania just ignored that problem and since the Federal Government did not object to the formation of this army, the Pennsylvania National Guard was viewed as legal (the Federal Government was viewed as the only person who had standing to challenge the formation of this Division and it never did).

I question that legal theory, but the Courts of the time period (1865-1903) wanted the National Guard to exist and the fact that it fits more under the concept of "State Troops" than "Militia" did not impress them. This is especially true after the General Strike of 1877 where the People backed the Strikers and thus the “Militia” (had it still existed) would have backed the strikers NOT the powers that be wanted the strike suppressed (See Pittsburgh, St Louis Military Intervention for more details).

The few Court cases of the time period had a tendency to ruled that the State could call whatever it wanted to be its Militia and that would be constitutional for only the Federal Government had standing to object to a military being “Troops” instead of being "Militia".

Given that the Federal Government did not object to the formation of the Pennsylvania National Guard, it “had” to be “Militia" not "State Troops". Since, under the US Constitution, the States can only have "Troops" with permission of Congress and no such permission was ever granted the Pennsylvania National Guard could not be "State Troops".

This remained the law in the US for the Federal Government refused to change its Militia Law (which only Congress could do and did not) BUT the President, the States and both the State and Federal Courts wanted these units to exist no matter what the Constitution said.

If you look at Article 1, Section Of the US Constitution you will see the STATES were given exclusive right to appoint officers to the Militia (This will be more important after the Passage of the National Guard Act of 1903). The Militia Act of 1792 showed HOW the Congress that wrote the Second amendment believe the Militia should be formed and the same Congress also formed up Regular Army forces. Lets look at the difference between the Militia under the 1792 act and “Troops” formed by the Same Congress:




Militia under Troops Today’s National
Under Act of 1792 1792/Today Guard

1. Part Time/Full Time.............Part-Time...............................Full Time..............Part-Time
2. Weapon, Provided by...........The Militiaman......................By Congress..........By Congress
3. Backpack, provided by.........The Militiaman......................By Congress..........By Congress
4. Uniform................................The Militiaman......................By Congress..........By Congress
5. Basic Load of Ammo...........The Militiaman......................By Congress..........By Congress
6. Weapon Stored where..........At Home.................................In an Armory........In an Armory
7. Paid br who?........................Unpaid....................................By Congress..........By Congress
8. Must Congress approve
the Officers of the Unit?...........NO.........................................YES.......................NO.

Thus if you compare today’s National Guard with the Militia Act of 1792, the National Guard is closer to the Regular Army of 1792 than the Militia of 1792. Of the Eight characteristics of “Troops” today’s National Guard complies with seven of those characteristics (Being part-time instead of full time being the only thing today’ National Guard has with the Militia of 1792).

If you take into consideration the “Dural” appointment system of today’s National Guard you further see that the National Guard are really “State Troops” not “Militia”. In the “Dural” system each National Guard unit is actually TWO units, one is the State Militia and the State appoints its officers to that unit, the other is an US Army Reserve Unit whose officers are appointed by the Federal Government. Given that the Equipment is paid for by the Federal government the “State unit” can not use the “Federal Equipment” unless the State officer and the Federal Officer are one and the same (and are paid by the Federal Government except when on State Duty, i.e. all training sessions are paid by the Federal Government).

Now the “Dural” appointment system was part of the National Guard Act of 1903 (the “Dick Act”) and every other Federal statute regarding the National Guard passed by Congress since 1903. Theodore Roosevelt had Congress pass the Dick Act for Theodore Roosevelt had served in a National Guard Unit in New York State and he wanted those units to be the new Militia (and to get rid of what he called the "Useless" Militia Act of 1792). This was the first major change in the Militia Act since 1795. In exchange for Federal recognition and funding, those state's units that agreed to come under the "National Guard Act of 1903" had to meet Federal Requirements as to equipment and training (i.e the “Dural” appointment system).

Some units did not WANT the Federal Funding (many did not need it, they had large endowments built up over the years from donations thus they did not meed ANY Funding). Others had strong connections with their state legislature and could get any type of funding from the State. Often these units had substantial assets from their years of membership as a club and they did not want to lose those assets to the then new National Guard Bureau in Washington.

Most units on the other hand wanted the extra funding for training and equipment, these units became "National Guard" units. These units accepted the requirements of "National Guard Act of 1903" and became today's National Guard units.

Those units that did NOT want to accept the Federal Requirements and Federal Control adopted the old Civil War unit designation as "State Guards".

Since 1903 the Federal Government has only funded National Guard Units. State Guard units either must be self-funding (and some are) or state funded (and some are). Pennsylvania finally abolished its State Guard in 1959, but some states still have them. Technically Pennsylvania (and any other state) can re-form (or add to any existing) State Guard any time any State wants to, but Pennsylvania has not done so since 1959. Most other states can do the same.

In effect the 1903 Act (and its successor the Universal Service Act of 1947) was a way to get around the restriction that all militia officers be state appointees. Even when the Act was first adopted in 1903 lawyers questioned its constitutionality for it stripped the rights of the states to appoint officers independent of the Federal Government (a right preserved in the Constitution) .

Please note the only “side” who would have “standing” to challenge the 1903 act (i.e. the States), did not want to challenge the 1903 act. The States preferred receiving the money for their Guard units from the Federal Government more than preserving their right to appoint officers. This is the situation regarding the Guard to this day. Given the Constitutional restriction I believe the National Guard do NOT meet the requirement of being a Militia Unit (but given that it has been approved by Congress the National Guard are valid State Troops for Congress has expressly authorized the States to have them. The fact that the Congress called them Militia instead of State Troops do NOT make the National Guard illegal (And I believe the National Guard were ILLEGAL State troops prior to the 1903 Act).

Personal Rumblings

Now as to my own beliefs, I view the original Militia Act as determinative. Pistols were know at that time and had been around for about 200 years, yet are NOT mentioned in the Section One of the Act (a "hanger" is, if you do not know, is a sword used by Officers of that time period to emphasis their Orders in Battle. Thus it is a symbol of rank, not a weapon. Pistols replaced such swords starting about the time of the American Civil War, but still as symbols of rank NOT as “real” weapons). Now Pistols are mentioned later on in the Act, but only in the formation of Calvary units, and Calvary units were restricted to no more than 10% of the total troops formed under the Act and as such not relevant to the issue of weapons for your average Militiaman.

Today, other than as symbols of rank, pistols are also carried by personal whose "main weapon" prohibited them from operating a Rifle. In 1792 such personal were primary Calvary-men and their horses. When I was in the Texas National Guard in the 1980s I was a Armor Personal Carrier (APC) driver and as such was issued a pistol. My "main weapon" was the M-106, 4.2 Inch Mortar Carrier I was to drive - NOT shoot my handgun.

Thus I believe pistols can be banned for the object of the Militia is to supply light infantrymen. Rifles (even Bolt Action Rifles) are MUCH more useful in the hands of such soldiers than are pistols. Or more accurately the usefulness of a man with a rifle or a pointy shovel (referred to as a "spade") would be more useful in the typical military operation of the militia than would be pistols. Thus pistols and even sub-machine guns can be banned for Rifles (including Assault Rifles) would be more useful in any military operation of the militia.

In the absence of a rifle, a long handed spade would be useful just to dig entrenchments and as such more useful than a pistol in military operations (and do not knock such spades, the German "Shock Troops" of WWI were squads of 12 men one of whom was only armed with a long handed spade for that very purpose. With those Shock Troops Germany almost won WWI. The Shock Troops have been referred to a the Panzer troops of WWII just without tanks. Tactics were similar, charge, bypass, and surround the enemy and destroy his lines of supply and communications. And this was done by troop equipped with Bolt action rifles, spades and one water cool "light" machine gun.

My point is the spade had higher military usability than the pistol during that time period AND HAS SUPERIOR MILITARY USABILITY TO A PISTOL TO THIS DAY. Given the wide spread availability of such spades, pistols can be banned for such spades have higher military usability.

Pistols only have military usability in two circumstances, the first as symbol of rank (i.e you command a Company of men) or to be carried by someone whose main weapon is difficult to adjust (I.e a General Purpose Machine Gun) or the weapon, while military needed, has only a limited role and the carrier may have to defend himself from other infantrymen while carrying the weapon (such as the various Anti-tank and Anti-Aircraft Missiles issued to modern soldiers. It is difficult to carry both the handheld missile and a Rifle and the missile has very limited usability against infantry).

While the above is correct, and an argument can be made if you own a proper Machine Gun or Anti-Tank Missile Launcher or Anti-Aircraft Missile Launcher or even a Tank, an argument can also be made that you can still carry a rifle while carrying those weapons. It may be more difficult but the rifle would have superior usability to a pistol and as such a ban on pistols even for these uses may be justified under the Second.

REMEMBER the Second preserves the right of the Federal Government (and by implication the States) to form the Militia as the Feds (or the states) may think best. Thus the Second does NOT stop the Federal Government or the State from standardizing militia weapons for ease of re-supply. Thus the Government may ban a weapon (such as a pistol) just because the Government only want to have to supply the Militia certain caliber of Ammunition.

Remember at the time the Second was adopted Congress had fought a long and nasty War. The fact that it is easier to re-supply an army which is using only one caliber of weapons was driven hard on them. Thus even in the Militia Act the weapon covered was .69 caliber weapon like the type the French had supplied us during the Revolution. Thus to ease supply is a valid ground to ban weapons from being militia weapons. Thus congress can ban any weapons such as pistols, no matter what military justification for the use of such weapons, simply to ease the re-supply problem.

Now Congress can not ban weapons to ban weapons under the Second, but can ban weapons in favor of other weapons (i.e ban pistols because Congress would prefer the militia to have Assault Rifles). Thus any ban must still permit the Militia to have some sort of Weapon of Military usability (i.e Assault Rifles). Furthermore the weapon NOT banned must be able to be used by the Militia as part of a TEAM effort. Any militia is made of small groups of people acting as a team (Generally on the infantry squad level). Thus Militia service is ALWAYS A TEAM EFFORT.

Thus Congress can banned weapons that it believes does not help the Militia operate as a team (in addition to any supply consideration). On the other hand Congress (and the States) can NOT ban weapons that clearly enhances the Militia to operate as a combat team (and does not interfere with any supply situation).

The test I would use is does the Weapon banned enhances a combat team more than a long handled spade? Yes, a PERSON with a pistol will beat a PERSON with a shovel, but THAT IS NOT A TEAM APPROACH. That is like saying one sides Linebackers will always tackle the other sides Quarterback, provided no one else is one the field. True but irrelevant.

The Quarterback will have things around him know as "Linemen" and "running backs". The same with people working together in any militia activity. The militiamen will act as a team and its members as members of that team. Thus the REAL question is whether a person with a pistol or a person with a spade enhance that team MORE. The other team members generally will carry rifles or shotguns. Thus will a person carrying a spade or a pistol add to combat effectiveness of a team of riflemen or shot gunners? In my opinion the answer to THAT question, is the spade user. He can dig entrenchments, in close combat he can use the spade as a defensive weapon to defend himself till the other members of the team can help him out. Thus a person with a spade enhances an infantry squad.

You cannot say the same of a person with a pistol. Given the range of even most shotguns, the pistol carrier can not add to the fire-power of the squad (He is outrange by the Shotguns), he can still warn his fellow team members but in close combat drills (i.e. within 2-3 feet) he is no better than the person with the spade, and since the pistol can not be used to dig entrenchments, does not even bring THAT enhancement to the team.

My point is you cannot view a man with any particular weapon in isolation. Such a person is NOT acting like a member of a militia. You must look at what any particular weapon brings to a group of people working as a team. In most cases (there are exceptions but in the majority of cases) a person with a spade will add more to a team of militiamen than a person with a pistol.

The pistol does not add to the power of such an ad hoc infantry team, while the spade does add to such a team by the simple means of helping the members of the team better survive any attacks by hostile fire.

Thus given today's combat needs (and supply needs of today's battlefield) I do not believe that Congress can NOT ban Assault Rifles but can ban pistols.

Web sites for the General Strike of 1877:

http://www.socialistappeal.org/uslaborhistory/great_rai...

http://www.plp.org/labhist/wlpittsb1877.pdf

http://www.pittsburghaflcio.org/railroad.html

http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/a...

http://www.ranknfile-ue.org/uen_1877.html

http://users.crocker.com/~acacia/text_gsif.html

http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/RiverWeb/Projects/...

http://www.plp.org/labhist/rrstrike1877.pdf

Solidarity

http://www.ce-review.org/01/27/solidarity27.html

http://www.needham.mec.edu/high_school/cur/Baker_00/200...

The Russian Revolutions of 1917 (I found a lot about the revolution and the subsequet Civil War, but few on the actual revolution here is one site):

http://www.emayzine.com/lectures/russianrev.html


The German Revolution of 1918

http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/germany/lec...


Here are some sites that have arguments on the Text of the Second, many make other arguments also, but I included them because you wanted information regarding the Text of the Second Amendment.


http://www.ccrkba.org/1999Emersoncase2amend.html

http://battleflags.tripod.com/embaras.html

http://www1.law.ucla.edu/~volokh/2amteach/interp.htm

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Dowd1.htm

http://www.gunlawsuits.com/defend/second/articles/twent...
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enfield collector Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #76
84. wow thanks for that. lots of good information there.
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
80. Anyway you look at it the 2nd amendment
is a dismal failure as far as an individual RKBA goes. Either the collectivists are right and it isn't meant to protect an individual RKBA or they're wrong and it is meant to protect an individual RKBA in which case it has simply failed miserably given the current state of federal gun laws.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
95. The Second Amendment is dead and buried.
US v. Miller restricted any legal interpretation of it to the context of armed citizen militia. And the armed citizen militia is dead, dead, dead. We don't even have a draft any more. Decisions since Miller have borne out this interpretation. The Second Amendment has never been used successfully (in a case that still stands) to defend anyone's individual RKBA or to overturn any gun control measure.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #95
104. The Draft is dead?
Do you ever turn on that box with the moving pictures?

And as far as militias go...they are dead only because they make the Federal Government nervous.
I will continue taking my personal rifles to the range, and practicing my marksmanship. Oh, and further BTW.....I go to the range on an Army base, and there are lots of folks like me in the service who own our own guns, and have the training to defend our homes, our families and our neighbors if the Government ever loses its damn mind and tries to impose its will over that of the Constitution, and Bill of Rights.

Once a soldier, always a soldier.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. Is there a draft or not? Not.
And you're missing the point on militias. A militia that meets the Miller definition (and the best definitions from the time of the founders) would be government-organized and government-controlled. A bunch of anarchists with face-paint does not qualify as a militia, no matter what they choose to call themselves.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. Nor is a pompous yobbo with a gun a militia of one
whether or not he can spell "espontoon"...
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #107
110. As long as there is compulsory registration the draft is NOT DEAD
WHO MUST REGISTER

Almost all male U.S. citizens, and male aliens living in the U.S., who are 18 through 25, are required to register with Selective Service. It's important to know that even though he is registered, a man will not automatically be inducted into the military. In a crisis requiring a draft, men would be called in sequence determined by random lottery number and year of birth. Then, they would be examined for mental, physical and moral fitness by the military before being deferred or exempted from military service or inducted into the Armed Forces.

A chart of who must register is also available.

NON-CITIZENS
Some non-citizens are required to register. Others are not. Noncitizens who are not required to register with Selective Service include men who are in the U.S. on student or visitor visas, and men who are part of a diplomatic or trade mission and their families. Almost all other male noncitizens are required to register, including illegal aliens, legal permanent residents, and refugees. The general rule is that if a male noncitizen takes up residency in the U.S. before his 26th birthday, he must register with Selective Service. For a more detailed list of which non-citizens must register, see Who Must Register - Chart .

DUAL NATIONALS
Dual nationals of the U.S. and another country are required to register, regardless of where they live, because they are U.S. nationals.
See also Aliens and Dual Nationals - Liability for Service

HOSPITALIZED OR INCARCERATED MEN
Young men in hospitals, mental institutions or prisons do not have to register while they are committed. However, they must register within 30 days after being released if they have not yet reached their 26th birthday.

DISABLED MEN
Disabled men who live at home must register with Selective Service if they can reasonably leave their homes and move about independently. A friend or relative may help a disabled man fill out the registration form if he can't do it himself.

Men with disabilities that would disqualify them from military service still must register with Selective Service. Selective Service does not presently have authority to classify men, so even men with obvious handicaps must register now, and if needed, classifications would be determined later.

FULL-TIME MILITARY EXEMPTED FROM REQUIREMENT
Young men serving in the military on full-time active duty do not have to register. Those attending the service academies do not have to register. If a young man leaves the military before turning 26, he must register.

NATIONAL GUARD AND RESERVES
Members of the Reserve and National Guard not on full-time active duty must register.

CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS
Men who would be classified as Conscientious Objectors if they were drafted must also register with Selective Service. If a draft begins and they are called, they would have the opportunity to file a claim for exemption from military service based upon their religious or moral objection to war.


http://www.sss.gov/FSwho.htm

The only way the draft could ever truly be dead would be an ablolition of the registry. It's kind of like gun registration - If registration exists then confiscation is physically possible.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #110
113. There hasn't been a draft in thirty years.
Nobody is talking about reinstating it except those who are opposed to the idea and who want to hang it around their political opponents' necks. National service is an idea that people are talking about, but that would be largely civilian service, not necessarily military.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #113
118. There wasn't a draft from 1918 to 1940
We didn't even have draft registration from 1973 to 1980, but it was reinstated and therefore a draft could be called up any time our illustrious leaders feel it's justified.

National service is an idea that people are talking about, but that would be largely civilian service, not necessarily military.

Have I ever mentioned that I have some fine vacation property in Florida for sale?
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #118
121. Also no war between 1918 and 1940. Funny coincidence, that.
But we have had quite a few wars since 1973, and no draft.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #121
125. So, let me get a few things clarified here.
Since I am against the government restricting and trying to take away the guns from law abiding citizens, I am a tinfoil hat wearing, facepainted anarchist.

Since I am in the military, I am a conservative.

Since I am pointing out to you that due to iminent crises in troop strenght levels making a draft probable, that I am a doom sayer....


Gee, I never realized all that it took to be considered crazy is to disagree with some of you guys.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #125
127. Not sure what you're responding to, here.
Edited on Tue Aug-24-04 06:30 PM by library_max
The facepainted anarchists I was describing are those belonging to the Michigan Militia, the Texas separatist groups, and suchlike. I never accused you of being one of them.

Obviously not everyone in the military is conservative. Who said they were? Nor did I or anybody I can see call you a "doom sayer."

So what's with your post? Are you just trying to start a fight over nothing?
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #127
128. No, just getting tired of the bait and switch
I simply wanted to have a discussion about the second amendment, and most of the things that have been thrown out are simply talking points from the left and the right, with no real personal opinions thrown in. And I was not specifically referring to you, even though I responded to your post. I am sorry.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #128
138. I still don't see what you're referring to
and I've read all up and down the string.

If you wanted to have a discussion about the Second Amendment, why not reply to messages that address the Second Amendment? In US case law, the Second Amendment is basically irrelevant to the modern world. All of the standing decisions regarding the Second Amendment have ruled that it is relevant only to the armed citizen militia, which doesn't exist any more.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #138
141. Ok. Well, let me pose this question to you, in a modern context.
Someone is breaking into your house. If you are unarmed, you call the police and hope like hell they get there in time. Or, you do what I did when the same thing happened. You get your shotgun, and as loudly as possible pump a shell into the chamber. You will then hear expletives and the sound of running feet. I had this happen a few months ago. When the police finally arrived, 19 minutes later, they did very little. They did not even bother to look for fingerprints, or any other evidence. They did however, question me about any other weapons I had in the house.

In this modern context, I do not see how my weapons are a threat to anyone except the person who was trying to break into my house. I do not know what he (or they) planned on doing once they broke in.

Furthermore, the police have proven on numerous occasions to be incapable of preventing crime. I do not belong to a "well organized militia, unless you count the fact that I am in the US Army. I have training on Rules of Engagement, use of Deadly force, and extensive weapons training. Do you mean to tell me that I am not knowledgable enough to responsibly use firearms?

Please. And what I was referring to about bait and switch was the incessant yammering about how all of us gun owners are right wing apocalypse nuts itching to go to war with the government, or that we are all somehow mental defectives.

If you are uncomfortable owning guns, fine. But taking my weapons away will not make you more safe, it will only make me more vulnerable.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #141
142. I have training on Rules of Engagement, use of Deadly force
I wouldn't compare military training to law enforcement training. Been in both, theres no comparison.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #141
144. I said this before, but I'll repeat it for you.
Supposing that you are every bit the responsible and level-headed gun owner you say you are - there is still no way to write the law to let you keep your guns but get them away from unstable people who might reach for them to settle an argument, nervous nitwits who shoot the meter reader or the paperboy, and prospective criminals. Those are the people I want guns kept away from. But there's no way to know who they are at the point of sale.

Also, though again I will assume that this does not apply to you personally, a lot of people get themselves killed trying to play Rambo in defending their businesses and homes. It is a statistical fact that a gun in the home is more likely to be used against a family member than to be used in successful defense from an intruder.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #144
146. There are already things in place.
Waiting periods and background checks. I think there should be stiffer penalties for crimes committed with firearms. This is America, however. I am still innocent until proven guilty. And those statistics have been proven as flawed time and time again. Suicide should not be counted. Also, there arent good numbers on how many crimes are prevented by the intended victim being armed.

Statistics are easily manipulated. Just check out the VPC. They claim that every thirty seconds a child is killed with a gun. If you count everyone under the age of 21 as a child, and dont take into account gang related violence, then those numbers are perfectly accurate.

This Jihad against law abiding gun owners has got to stop.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #146
147. Waiting periods and background checks don't get it done.
Not every loony has been diagnosed, and not every criminal or prospective criminal has been caught and convicted.

And it's not a question of innocence or guilt. It's not a question of punishment. There are many things that it is not legal for you or me to possess; and that's not a punishment, nor does it require either of us to be proved guilty of anything.

It is in society's interests for firearms to be strictly controlled. It's not a jihad against anybody. It's an attempt to save lives and create a safer, healthier society.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #147
148. Fine.
Lets just all turn our lives over to a paternalistic overlord to save us from ourselves. You know, Ben Franklin said it best. "those that willingly give up freedom for security, deserve and will recieve neither."
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #148
151. "Lets just all turn our lives over to a paternalistic overlord"
Wow...wonder where the RKBA guys dredge this bushwah up....

Me, I'm voting for John Kerry for overlord....because he's so paternalisitic (snicker).
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #151
153. You were implying
that all guns should be taken away to protect us all from the possibility of misuse. That sounds pretty paternalistic to me. Sorry if I feel I am better equipped at making decisions for myself, rather than letting some committee decide what I am "responsible" enough to have and use.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #153
156. Y'know, if it was just you, I wouldn't worry so much.
Except that I do worry about your kids.

But not everyone who buys a gun is like you. Some are careless, some are stupid, some are loonies, some are criminals who haven't been convicted yet, and some are people who sell guns under the table to criminals, terrorists, etc. There's no way to separate those people from people like you in terms of gun ownership. So society asks itself - is it better for everyone, loony, criminal, or not, to be allowed to own guns, or better not to allow loonies, criminals, and people who are neither to own guns?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #156
158. I, for one, do not plan to swindle anybody in the stock market
And yet I don't sit around and piss and moan that the Securities and Exchange Commission is infringing on my freedom....
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #153
157. Be sure and link to where I said that....
"letting some committee decide what I am "responsible" enough to have and use."
Yeah...those "committees" are just embarking on a reign of terror out there, aren't they? That's why so many people fussing about "paternalism" put that tinfoil in their hats...

Tell us, which committee is it that's got your panties in a bunch? Is it those tyrants at the Kids' Safety Committee?
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #148
154. But guns aren't freedom.
This is where the argument often breaks down. There are any number of things people aren't allowed to own. There's no special magic that makes guns different from uranium or dioxin or crack. Guns aren't freedom.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #154
160. If they were, Somalia would be paradise....
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #147
149. You're against waiting periods and background checks?
That's great, so am I.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #149
155. No.
I'm not against gasolene either. But if I have only gasolene in my car, and neither water nor oil, I'm not going to drive very far. What I am saying is that waiting periods and background checks are not sufficient.
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #155
161. Waiting periods and background checks don't get it done.
I agree completely.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #144
150. Remember, Max
this is somebody who already claims to own a shotgun...and to be storing it in an unsafe manner around small children.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #150
152. Remember, MrBenchley
You feel that my owning guns at all is irresponsible. My children have been taught their entire lives about gun safety. And the shotgun in question is unable to be loaded, cocked, lifted and fired by a young child. So why dont you call CPS if you are so worried.....Had my house been actually broken into, and my kids killed because I didnt have my shotgun close at hand, that would have been far more trajic.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #152
159. Did you change your name to Max?
"You feel that my owning guns at all is irresponsible."
Sez you. But then, you volunteered that you keep a loaded shotgun where two small children can easily get their hands on it. Nobody asked you whether you did. Ask me what I think that says about your overall good judgement.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #159
163. I also keep the car keys where small children can easily get to them
Your constant ad hominem attacks are tiresome and dull. Just admit that you agree with the right wingers that anyone whose values dont agree with yours should be persecuted and controlled. Quit being a hypocrit.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #163
164. And that proves...what?
That you're irresponsible in every way?

"Just admit that you agree with the right wingers"
Jeeze, I'm not the one pimping for the gun lobby here.

"should be persecuted and controlled"
YOU volunteered you left your loaded gun where kids could get it...nobody asked.
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