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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 03:51 PM
Original message
My take on the 2nd amendment issue
This is one of the most important points to the right wing today and one I certainly most bush supporters are concerned about. So far the Dem party has not been able to find away to combine common sense and passable legislation that wont bankrupt the party.

Here is my plan

We all agree the most damage comes from the bad guys having all the guns. Outlawing hand guns is never going to fly so why not make gun owners responsible for their guns.

Bad guys dont buy guns they trade drugs for them. When some crack junky breaks into your home he knows the best item to get are guns. They can be easily fenced for drugs. Drug dealers often times give the street value of $50 or $100 worth of drugs for these guns.

Now if we required gun owners to insure their firearms. A determinable effort to keep firearms out of criminal hands.

Let say NRA offers a no questions asked redemption policy for stolen fire arms. The insured would purchase a policy and have his firearms permanently marked to identify them as participating in the program. Redemption centers could be Pawn shops where by law they could not ask for ID, just give the barer of the identified insured weapon the reward of $250

Your taking away the firearms from the bad guys

Any ideas
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BlueCollar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. bad idea...
any idea that requires me to buy insurance is a bad idea...period
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Actualy I have hunted all my life
I have little or No use for hand guns

Pretty tired of seeing kids in the getto with more hand guns the legal registered owners.

But actualy you already have legal liability as it is. If some kid comes into your house and shoots himself with a loaded weapon you have in your home you can be prosecuted in many states already.

How long do you think it is before they extend the gun lawsuits to owners. I think the NRA needs to embrace a little responcibility before the little guys starting taking the finacial hits for lack of it
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. I don't see this happening
Guns I would own would come from friends or other sources that would not be tracable to me or tracked. If i want to own a pistol , shot gun or semi automatic I am not going to have a profile that can be traced to me.

I am not trusting any agency or program not to abuse personal info on gun ownership at some later time. This would just drive me underground.

I would choose to not participate.
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BlueCollar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I'm with you on the traceability point
but I have a huge problem with mandatory insurance of any kind...

they have all become monopolies...
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. It would not have to be manditory Why not part of NRA membership
doesn't membership have it's privleges

The NRA is big enough and powerful enough to offer this and administer a program such as this. It would also limit liability to the gun owner.

But this as any proposal to gun ownership is met with the same responce by the NRA. No, nothing, never. It is some day going to wear out and they are going to go after the little guy the gun owner and pick him off one by one.

Imagine if you will your gun is stolen from your home and ends up involved in a murder. the family comes after you becuase you did not excercise reasonable precaution to that gun ending up in the wrong hands

It is going to happen and happen soon.

As far as the NRA is concerned and the militent members of gun ownership groups are concern, the sooner the better
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. What about the 60,000,000 gunowners not NRA members...n/t
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Well if you don't have insurence then the gun can not be returned
right now if they capture the bad guys with your gun...because all guns are registered the police will return them to the rightful owner.

that should stop

If the person is carless enough to leave the gun laying around where it can get stolen then it should not be returned
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. So send all of the gun-owning voters...
To the NRA and their Repub watercarriers?
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I suppose any gun can be traced
but there are ways to buy them from private individuals who won't have information on who I am .
I am all for voluntary participation in a program of this sort - but I won't want to sign up. Its a privacy matter.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #9
31. FYI, NRA membership already includes gun theft insurance
n/t
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. How about a license
Do you not have a Drivers license? What would be wrong with a Gun License also. Have to pass a test demonstrating you know proper gun safety and techniques. The license would not mean you even own a gun the same as a driver's license. No where on the license does it identify your car and the same would be true for the gun license. You could have all the guns you like and the government wouldn't know but they would know you were qualified to own and use one so may just leave you alone if they found you with a gun. It might just help with insurance needs also.
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. I am not going to participate. Its an interesting idea all the same
I am not seeing a personal benefit to being licensed, insured or certified - and maybe its stubborness or arrogance that lies at the root of this for me but I know i am qualified and competant to own and use firearms.


As a kid, I competed on rifle ranges, I had small arms training in the Navy and I have been responsible ever since. I never had an " unloaded " gun discharge, nor do I handle them irresponsibly, nor do i have a criminal background. I see it as a privelledge to own and use guns - that can be revoked if warrented.
As for a license - for my current level of usage it is not necessary.

This is just, to me, another inroad into my privacy. If someone wants to voluntarliy suscribe to the expense and training required for a licence, then let that person get a concealed firearms permit from your state Dept of Public Safety.
I guarentee you those licenses are most scrupulously looked into before they are issued.

I am a pedestrian plinker who goes to a rifle range once in a blue moon.
I just prefer the anonymity of not being on anyone's radar - but if I got a concealed weapons permit then sure - that is a matter of public record.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. I don't see how you are not already participating
When was the last time you purchased an unregistered firearm ????

when you buy that firearm you have the intrusion already of the government.

Sooner or later more radical elements of the Anti-gun group is going to get a clue and go after the individuals in these cases. Why not the police already have.

This is not meant to be intrusive nor a limit of anyones rights, just a simple means to protect the public at large.

In California if a child shoots himself with his parent's gun the parent is charged with a crime. This is just saying gun owners should take precautions to prevent THEIR GUN from being used by a criminal. Be it placing gun locks on them, or locking them away in a gun safe, or having a means such as an insurence policy to prevent them from hitting the streets and being used in a drive bye shooting, murder, or hold up
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. What country are you talking about?
Here in the US the only firearms that are registered at the federal level are machine guns, destructive devices, and short barreled rifles and shotguns.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. But not after 9/13...
"If Congress and the President fail to act, weapons of war -- like AK-47s, Street Sweepers, and Tec-DC9s -- will once again be made in America, and potential criminals and terrorists who threaten our neighborhoods will once again be able to purchase them over-the-counter in local gun stores."

<snip>



"North Hollywood Bank of America -- On February 28, 1997, Emil Dechebal Matasareanu and Larry Eugene Phillips, Jr. tried to rob a Bank of America branch office in North Hollywood, California. While trying to escape, the two robbers engaged in a shootout with police. Though vastly outnumbered, the two men C armed with AK-47s, thousands of rounds of ammunition, several other weapons and wearing body armor C held off law enforcement personnel for hours before being shot and killed by police. Police were outgunned by the perpetrators and had to obtain weapons of equal firepower from a local gun store."

http://feinstein.senate.gov/assault-weapons-ban-support...
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I think those guns will still be limited.
somehow. But I would not mind owning an Ak. It would be fun to fire at a range.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Actually 9/13 has nothing to do with those guns...
That is the topic of about 15 other threads.

But some would have us believe differently.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. I wonder if my Senator knows those AKs weren't assault weapons
They were Chinese fully automatic military rifles smuggled into the country.

:eyes:
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Better drop her a line...
About her aides putting upisleading info.

As a non-constituent, she'd think I was sending hate mail.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Don't bother, she won't listen
As a contituent, I've tried. I just get hung up on.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. How about the Street Sweepers...
being NFA items?

:eyes:
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. In California ALL Firearms are registered
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I somehow doubt that...n/t
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. California isn't the whole United States. (nt)
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. Negative ghostrider
Edited on Sun Aug-08-04 02:30 AM by Columbia
Only legal handguns and so-called Assault Weapons (CA definition is different from the federal definition) are registered.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. No, just handguns and assault weapons
Edited on Sun Aug-08-04 11:21 AM by slackmaster
And not all handguns - I have one that I've owned since 1965 before registration began, and another that I built myself. Neither are registered, nor are they required to be.
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I already have 2 guns with NO background check or reportage
bought from friends or friends of friends.

And I am keeping it that way. I don't use gun locks or gun safes either.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
39. Well if some child walks into your home and shoots himself
In California YOU WILL BE LOCKED AWAY FOR A PERIOD OF NO LESS THEN 10 YEARS

Just how long do these Gun Advocates think it is going to take before the ambulance chasing lawyers that have reaked such havoc with disability and auto insurence catch on to this.

Soon and I mean very soon every wrongful death suit is also going to enclude a check of who was the legal owner of that gun. Make no mistake as many people only have $35,000 or $50,000 auto liability. They most often carry $500,000 or more on their homes. Lawyers know this and it is going to make them a likely target for litigation
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #39
48. Sorry to disappoint but CA's CAP law is rarely enforced
One CAN be locked up for up to 10 years, and there are many issues a defendant could bring to trial like how well the gun was secured, where ammunition was stored, whether or not the house was locked and how well, etc. Criminal negligence has to be determined case-by-case by juries and judges. Sometimes the child/victim is largely at fault, such as a 15-year-old breaking into your locked house when you aren't home and jimmying open your gun storage box.

But many times the law is not enforced out of compassion for a dumbass parent who lost a child due to stupidity.
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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. When?
"When was the last time you purchased an unregistered firearm ????"

Thursday as a matter of fact.

I bought a Kimber Ultra CDP .45 pistol.

Walked in at 2:30pm, purchased it at 2:45, background check done at 2:50, gun went home with me at 3:00pm (times are approximate).

Its good to live in a free state.

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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
40. Good point
If you have a gun you should / and are Required to insure it does not fall into the wrong hands and end up being used to kill people

Why is this such a far strech for those claiming to be responcible gun owners?

Intrusive : It does not have to be. NRA could take the incitive to create a system were its members could accomplish this and remain annonamous. But the NRA doesn't really care about it's members, just the gun making / selling industry.

Too many people are becoming wise to the NRA / Gun industries objectives.
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. You understand that the vast majority of gun owners
aren't NRA members, right?
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. Yes But if the NRA wants to remain a viable force in elections
The NRA is going to have to clean up their act

They are going to have to take the lead in public safty and some inititive to enact reforms. I see people going after them and the gun manufactures more and more just as they have the tobacco industry. It took years and many failed law suits but eventually they tore down the walls

Don't get me wrong ...... I am not against RESPONCIBLE gun ownership.
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. How are you planning on making them a less viable force
in elections? The more you attack them and the more gun control you try and pass the more support they'll get.

Don't get me wrong ...... I am not against RESPONCIBLE gun ownership.

I worry about what people consider responsible gun ownership.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Point well taken
Some sort of viable plan on taking guns off the street and out of the hands of street gangs has been on my mind for years now. This was the first time I ever really said any thing about it.

If you have seen the kids killed as a result of the gang turf wars of the inner cities you might feel the same way.

One of the worst was these 3 teenaged kids shot up in their car. Wasn't one of them over 18.
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. You might try
ending the war on drugs.
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Bowline Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
42. Your idea has merit and is a reasonable compromise. n/t
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. WOW that is a little out of date
Which planet have you been living on
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newbie2be Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. Any ideas?
Just one...how about locking up the criminals that steal or use guns for crimes against others? Instead of putting up billboards claiming any law abiding citizen will be jailed for owning a gun (MA) why not just apply such rules against dangerous criminals.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. This thread makes pretty good freeper bait don't it
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
29. Welcome to the gungeon
Right wing talking points are the standard bill of fare from our "pro gun democrats," who openly cheerlead for Republicans.
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. Of course
it's the gun control supporters who were pimping for John McCain as Kerry's VP and want to give John Ashcroft the power to regulate ammunition as he sees fit and support all the other gun control the Republicans have passed, but make no mistake, it's really the pro-gun "Democrats" who are peddling right wing talking points and cheer-leading for Republicans.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. Street value of guns...
Is often much higher than the market value due to the difficulty of obtaining firearms.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Sorry but that is just not true
I once saw a police officer's gun, a colt 357 revolver with competition sites and grips, still in the holster with the belt and the officer's badge traded for 3 $20 bags of meth (crank)

No they are bought for pennys on the dollar from drug addicted junkys that steal them
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. I won't argue with experience...n/t
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
35. I hope you reported it to the police
n/t
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-04 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
30. Interesting idea but it needs some adjustments
It does nothing to deter theft, and it financially rewards someone who turns in a stolen gun even if he's the one who stole it. I believe receiving stolen goods is a crime in all states, therefore this plan would give immunity to a criminal who buys a stolen gun from another criminal and pawns it.

Guns are already serialized and traceable. Nobody wants to have their guns stolen. I've taken some extraordinary, costly measures to protect mine, and if they ever are stolen I'll be calling the police with a list of makes, models, and serial numbers as soon as I realize they're gone. If there was a national database of guns reported as stolen and if pawn dealers were required to check it any time somebody tries to pawn a gun, that might put a dent in the problem. No doubt pawn dealers would complain about the extra hassle.

FWIW I carry liability insurance to cover my liability for people getting hurt at my home, and for any screwups I commit anywhere (other than motor vehicle accidents, which are covered by my car insurance). I should not have to pay for the mis-deeds of others.
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LQQKR Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
47. keep it simple.
I see it like this: We should not treat people as criminals that have not committed a crime, this is the essence of a free society. Whether you like guns or not, responsible gun owners are not breaking laws. However, if you use a firearm in the commission of a crime, the weight of the justice system should fall upon you like a load of bricks. It's important we treat violent criminals, like... well... violent criminals and gun enthusiast should be treated like law abiding citizens. Prohibition never works, and more gun laws will do absolutely nothing to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Simply, the best thing we can do is remove people from society for as long as possible that have committed violent acts, with, or without firearms.
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