GUNS IN THE NEWS--July 31-August 2, 2004

[MrBenchley]

As CO Liberal sez:
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[MrBenchley]

1. Court decision could allow guns in all Pa. courthouses

Yeah, that's what the justice system needed...armed neurotics in courtrooms...

"If handgun enthusiasts win an appellate court order allowing guns in courthouses across the state, Westmoreland County commissioners say the consequences could be dire.
"I believe in the right to carry a firearm, but you start crossing borders, particularly when you have people with Children's Bureau cases or divorces. Someone could get drunk and upset and they have a .38. That wouldn't be good," Commissioner Terry Marolt said.
A state law allowing guns to be barred from courtrooms and their "environs" has been interpreted to mean entire courthouses in most of Pennsylvania's 67 counties.
But a recent county court decision that permits gun owners to carry weapons in rural Jefferson County, and its subsequent appeal, could decide the issue. "

http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/regional/s_206171.html

[MrBenchley]

2. Man injured in Prescott Valley shooting (AZ)

"Two officers from the Prescott Valley Police Department engaged in a shootout with the man after they arrived at a home after a report of shots fired, Officer Jennifer Miller said. She would not release the names of the officers or identify the man.
When the officers arrived at the home Saturday night, they saw a man standing inside a garage, Miller said.
The man allegedly pointed a rifle at the officers and they returned fire.
"We believe that the suspect was struck several times," Miller said. "

http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/nav_includes/story.cfm?storyID=91660

[MrBenchley]

3. Man Who Was Shot Undergoes Another Surgery (AR)

"Willison suffered a gunshot wound to his stomach following an argument Friday night with another man, Randall Wiggins, 50, at 12018 Strain Community Road near Elkins, according to a Washington County Sheriff's Office report. The shooting remains under investigation.
Wiggins and his niece's boyfriend, Willison, got into an argument after drinking all day at the residence when a fistfight broke out, according to a police report.
Wiggins went into the house, returned with a .9-mm handgun and asked Willison to leave, according to a police report. Willison moved toward Wiggins, who fired, hitting Willison, the police report said.
Wiggins told detectives he feared Willison would injure him and he shot in self-defense, according to the report."

http://www.razorbackcentral.com/archive/2004/08/02/FayettevilleNews/267261.html

Yeah, self defense....

[papau]

4. Use Steel - not lead - ammo

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-ed-condor31jul31.story
EDITORIAL
Getting the Lead Out

July 31, 2004

There was California Condor 36 again, showing off for tourists this summer along the side of Highway 1 near Big Sur, unruffled as people came within a couple of feet, snapping pictures. Fun for tourists, but an example of why restoring California's flagship endangered species is proving to be such a delicate effort.

<snip>Still, environmentalists and regulators are sacrificing the bigger issue by focusing on Tejon construction. Even ardently anti- development condor experts say the far bigger threat is lead bullets, the same problem that led to the captive breeding program. By eating the remains of hunter kills, condors ingest the lead. Five released condors have died of lead poisoning, according to Bruce Palmer, until recently the coordinator of the condor recovery effort. Lead has been found in two-thirds of the released birds.

<snip>Non-lead bullets for hunting exist, though they're more than twice as expensive. It's a reasonable financial burden for an elective hobby. If hunters can pay for the gasoline to power their SUVs and pickups into hunting territory, they can certainly afford a less toxic bullet.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, instead of bragging about how biologists will scare condors from Tejon construction sites by squirting them with water pistols, could save more birds by banning lead bullets on the federal lands in condor habitat, which includes Los Padres National Forest. The California Fish and Game Commission should be doing the same on relevant state lands. Tejon Ranch CEO Bob Stine says if he could get the two government agencies to commit to such a ban within the next few years, he would take the first step by immediately banning lead bullets on ranch property, a noted commercial hunting ground.<snip>

There will be long, loud debate over Tejon Ranch development. If condors could have some lead-free years before anything is built, their numbers might increase enough that environmentalists wouldn't choke on the notion of allowing accidental killings on construction sites. Then at least the development battle could be about the usual topics, not California's embattled flying goofballs.

[Bowline]

6. Steel ammo is getting better, and cheaper.

It's still much harder on gun barrels though, which is why many shooters don't like to use it.

[Fulcrum]

7. Steel Shot or Bullets?

Are we talking about steel shot or bullets used in cartridges? There is a big difference there when it comes to being practical in use and legalities. Steel shot isn't a big deal, the hunter just substitutes one for the other with a loss in patterning. Lead shot really does litter areas with itself and can cause environmental problems.

If were talking bullets, it's a whole new game. The only steel bullets I'm aware of is those from some Russian manufacturers for their calibers. Many places don't allow its use due to the ability to penetrate armor (steel or otherwise). Armor piercing ammo used by the military utilizes steel cores. It will also eat up the barrel of a firearm because it's the same hardness as the steel in the barrel without a copper exterior, shotguns have a plastic wad to protect their barrels from the shot. If you're going to force them to use any form of solid, non-lead bullet, make it lead-free tin/copper based bullets or solid copper like the Barnes X-Bullet.

[Bowline]

14. Excellent point. Steel shot is what the article was discussing.

I was thinking of steel cartridges holding standard lead bullets.

[library_max]

24. Gotta love it.

Thirteen stories about people being killed, one story about condors being killed, and guess which one gets the second-most responses on the thread?

[FeebMaster]

26. You don't seem to be responding to those other stories either. (nt)

[library_max]

28. Oh Magoo, you've done it again!

See (if you can) post #22.

[FeebMaster]

33. Yes you replied to the one subthread with more

posts than this one, but you haven't responded to any of those lonely one post subthreads you were just talking about.

[MrBenchley]

38. Shootings concern West Palm Beach police (FL)

"WEST PALM BEACH — Police arrested a 16-year-old boy Friday night they believe shot at an officer during a foot chase, the third shooting in as many days in the city's north end.
The other shootings left a 16-year-old girl dead early Friday and a 30-year-old man in critical condition Wednesday. The incidents do not appear related, said Detective Lt. Charles Reed of the West Palm Beach Police Department.
Police are also looking for two men spotted in the neighborhood Friday night with assault rifles.
"They have assault rifles, and we're very concerned," Reed said."

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2004/08/01/w1c_copshoot_0801.html

[MrBenchley]

5. One dead, five hurt in Queens shooting

"NEW YORK (AP) -- One man died and five teens were injured after they were shot at a party in Queens, police said.
Gunfire broke out at about 8:10 p.m. Saturday as people were leaving Bayswater State Park in the Far Rockaway section, where the party was being held, police said.
Kevin McPhaul, 23, was shot in the right side of his hip and was taken to Jamaica Hospital, where he later died. "

http://www.theithacajournal.com/news/stories/20040802/localnews/960109.html

[MrBenchley]

8. rrest made in Columbus man's shooting death (GA)

"Sheila Joy Harmon was arrested Sunday in the shooting death of Randy Rigdon, said Columbus police Sgt. Frank Massa.
Rigdon's body was found Saturday morning in the back seat of a minivan, partially clothed with multiple gunshot wounds to the torso.
Police believe Harmon and Rigdon knew each other, Massa said."

http://www.accessnorthga.com/news/ap_newfullstory.asp?ID=42888

[MrBenchley]

9. Boy clings to life after shooting (TX)

"A little boy — just a week shy of his sixth birthday — clung to his life in a Dallas children’s hospital Sunday, a day after he was shot in the head at a Wichita Falls home.
Joseph Norris, 5, was listed in critical but stable condition late Saturday after he survived the shooting incident that killed three adults at 704 N. Broadway, police said.
Police were called to the home about 4:30 p.m. Saturday. When they arrived, they found four people shot. Three were dead, and Joseph was rushed to United Regional Health Care System.
Police were investigating the incident as a murder-suicide and were not looking for other suspects in the case, the news release said. "

http://www.timesrecordnews.com/trn/local_news/article/0,1891,TRN_5784_3080713,00.html

[MrBenchley]

10. Shooting Of Boy, 11, Troubles Neighborhood (MA)

"The boy, identified as Jenry Gonsalez, was trying out for a Pop Warner football team at Carter Playground near Columbus Avenue, and police believe he was simply an innocent victim. They said it appeared the boy was hit by a random shot fired after a fight broke out at a nearby basketball court. He was listed in critical but stable condition.
Many of the children's counselors and parents are concerned about their safety at the park now.
"It's sad. You know, it's insane that kids can't come into the park and enjoy themselves in a decent environment or a safe environment," said camp counselor Jimmy Ihite."

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/3605874/detail.html

[gatlingforme]

11. Why I killed the robber (Austrailia)

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/printpage/0,5481,10302789,00.html


Why I killed the robber
ECLUSIVE by BEN JONSTON and WARREN OWENS
01aug04

THE security guard who shot and killed a robber who bashed her has spoken about her ordeal for the first time.

Shaking and crying, a traumatised Karen Brown, 42, said yesterday she had feared for her life as she was punched in the head several times by William Aquilina, who was armed with a knuckle duster.
"I was so scared," she said of the ambush and shooting outside a hotel in Sydney's southwest last Monday morning.

Ms Brown suffered a fractured skull, a fractured eye socket, a fractured nose, a fractured left hand and possible brain damage when the 25-year-old grabbed her hair, king-hit her and then battered her to the ground.

The convicted criminal then dragged her across the bitumen towards a stolen getaway car before she could release a bag containing between $30,000 and $50,000 in hotel takings. Moments later, a bleeding Ms Brown, who was dressed in casual clothes and whose gun had been concealed, shot Aquilina as he sat in the car.

Surrounded by her family, Ms Brown tried to recall the incident that left her covered in blood in the hotel car park.

Snip -

He was a good guy though..........

[MrBenchley]

13. "He was a good guy though.........."

Guess that's more of that RKBA "logic," or whatever the hell it is...

By the way, how many times have we been told on this forum by our "pro gun democrats" that Australia is a brutal tyranny where law-abiding citizens are denied access to guns?

Are you surprised that was a pantload? Me neither.

[Bowline]

16. No, this is an example of the family of the criminal in deep denial.

Directly from the story:

"Mr Rasmussen said he was upset by how his grandson -- who has convictions for drugs and robbery -- had been portrayed.

"They're saying he's a rotten dangerous criminal and he's not. He's lovable," he said. "We still don't believe he's done this on his own -- he's too good a person.

"He's never been involved in anything like this in almost 26 years that we've known him. It's not in his nature."

---

"He's lovable" the grandfather said. I'm sure the victim absolutely loved the way the man bashed her in the head with a set of brass knuckles, caving in her skull. How could someone not love that?!?! What a swell guy he was.

[MrBenchley]

19. Sounds like the RKBA crowd hereabouts...

Who was that defending David Koresh and Randy Weaver not so long ago?

[Bowline]

23. Strawman Alert! Strawman Alert! Completely off topic....

Neither Koresh nor Weaver have anything to do with the tragedy that befell this woman. Do you have any comments relevant to the story posted?

[MrBenchley]

Nope. Right on the money as usual...

It was only within the last couple weeks we had RKBAers defending Koresh and Weaver right here on this forum...

[Bowline]

30. Danger Will Robinson...Strawman...Strawman...Strawman!

What some may or may not have said several weeks ago about Koresh and Weaver has not a thing to do with the attack on a woman in Australia.

You know it, I know it, and most importantly, everyone else here knows it. There is absolutely NO moral way to defend the actions of this man. Deep in your heart even YOU know that.

[library_max]

34. Nobody here defended Aquilina, neither MrBenchley nor anybody else.

So save your strawman alerts for your own self.

[MrBenchley]

35. Gee, bowline....at least I didn't claim you said he was a good guy....

"There is absolutely NO moral way to defend the actions of this man."
Nor Koresh nor Weaver...which doesn't stop our RKBA crowd from trying to do so....

[MrBenchley]

27. Nope. Right on the money as usual...

It was only within the last couple weeks we had RKBAers defending Koresh and Weaver right here on this forum...

[gatlingforme]

56. exactly my thoughts as well.

[Fulcrum]

18. Who was a good guy?

From the story I read on it, his grandfather (ex-Sheriff) said the kid was a good guy and she should be charged with murder. Needless to say, anyone who tries intentionally to physically beat someone to death is not a 'good guy'. Has nothing to do with RKBA logic.

Her firearm wasn't personally owned for self-defense, it was her sidearm in use as a security guard. Thus, it has nothing to do with Australian firearm laws for private citizens. Now, people in Aus can own handguns, but they must be a member of a club and participate in competitions. No self-defense or other uses are permitted. They can also readily attain a Class A or Class B license for rimfire rifles or bolt action centerfires. Another class exist for semi-auto centerfires, but they're highly restricted and only granted to people who own land and provide satisfactory proof to the government as to why they should own a semi-auto.

[Bowline]

25. Apparently, in MrBenchley's book, he was a good guy.

As long as he didn't use a gun he is a good guy. Disregard the fact that he assaulted, disfigured, and severely injured a WOMAN! He was a good guy because he didn't use a gun.

Had he used a gun instead of brass knuckles he would have immediately been moved from the "good guy" category to the "scummy right-wing humhole pantload" category. Apparently it's the gun and not the crime that makes people bad.

[MrBenchley]

32. Well, talk about your strawman alert....

"Apparently, in MrBenchley's book, he was a good guy."
Well, I guess I DO have to point out that he never actually lied about what anyone else here said. But in fact, I was pointing to the curious comment by the person who posted the story...

"Had he used a gun"
Wonder why he didn't? Oh yeah....Australia has common sense gun control that causes our RKBAers to piss and moan from half a world away.

[Bowline]

37. I direct your attention to Post #13. n/t

[MrBenchley]

39. It didn't improve with age....

[Bowline]

42. No, but then again, very few of your posts do. n/t

[MrBenchley]

44. And it's still a quote from the person who posted the story....

no matter how you spin it....

[gatlingforme]

58. Jeeeez- I was being sarcastic. I never intended for anyone

to think I thought the guy was a "good guy"

[Jack_DeLeon]

51. Not all law abiding citizens are security guards...

Had the victim of this crime not been a security guard then its likely that she would not have been armed.

[library_max]

52. Nor would she have been protecting tens of thousands in cash.

Read the article.

[iverglas]

59. and -obviously- been targeted for precisely that reason

and no other.

Seems to me that a bit of common sense on the part of her employers and possibly herself -- with the result that she would not have been wandering abroad alone with several tens of thousands of dollars on her person -- might have produced better results than toting a firearm along with it.

[Jack_DeLeon]

62. Whoa...

so you are saying that you dont think security guards should be armed?

[iverglas]

63. hoo-ee, baby

so you are saying that you dont think security guards should be armed?

So you are saying that you think that's what I was saying? Odd. I don't recall saying that at all. Not even anything that sounded like that. Not remotely.


Just so's you know, I'm not sure whether I would actually call her a "security guard", at least in the sense in which someone who works for Brinks, f'r instance, is a "security guard". Although perhaps that's exactly what she was.

Up here, being a "security guard" is not sufficient to be permitted to carry a handgun. I'm sure that sounds weird to a USAmerican, since I'm sure that there are armed security guards all over the place, in retail businesses and office buildings and the like, down there. It isn't the case here, and I very much doubt that it's the case in Australia. Here are the Canadian regs on point:

http://www.canlii.org/ca/regu/sor98-207/whole.html

Lawful Profession or Occupation

3. For the purpose of section 20 of the Act, the circumstances in which an individual needs restricted firearms or prohibited handguns for use in connection with his or her lawful profession or occupation are where

(a) the individual's principal activity is the handling, transportation or protection of cash, negotiable instruments or other goods of substantial value, and firearms are required for the purpose of protecting his or her life or the lives of other individuals in the course of that handling, transportation or protection activity; ...

AUTHORIZATIONS TO CARRY

Issuance

4. A chief firearms officer shall not issue to an individual an authorization to carry a particular restricted firearm or prohibited handgun that is required in the circumstances described in section 2 or for the purpose described in paragraph 3(a) unless

(a) the individual has successfully completed training in firearms proficiency and the use of force; and

(b) the chief firearms officer determines that the particular restricted firearm or prohibited handgun is appropriate in those circumstances or for that purpose.

Now, it's hard to tell from the news report we have, but it seems that she may well have been someone whose principal activity is the handling etc. of cash --

Ms Brown had been collecting and banking the pub's takings for the past five months.

-- that being a legitimate reason for carrying a firearm: people who are employed to do that are vulnerable targets, and at risk.

If she was actually a "security guard" at a pub, i.e. someone whose principal activity was, say, ensuring the safety of patrons and employees and the security of the premises and property during business hours, then, up here, she would *not* be authorized to carry a firearm, and that's just how I like it.

An employer who sent a lone employee out into a dark parking lot, after hours, with a wad of cash like that, on a regular basis, would be doing little more than setting him/her up for what in fact happened to this woman. Employers with wads of cash like that being deposited on a regular basis really ought to think about employing a real security firm to do the picking up and depositing. From the article, it sounds like maybe that's what this employer did: it retained her, or the firm she worked for (i.e. she wasn't a regular employee of the pub, she just did its bank deposits). But too obviously, this employee's safety and life were at risk, and the procedure she was following did not contain adequate safeguards. If she was not a regular employee of the pub, then she seems to have been either a freelancer who simply was not up to the job or an employee of a security firm that did not provide her with adequate safeguards, like having the job done by a two-person team, which I'd think might be minimum standard practice.

So in fact, the answer (if you had actually asked a real question instead of an unfounded allegation with a question mark at the end) is "it depends". I'm saying that "security guards", of the type employed by businesses to protect patrons, employees, premises and property in the ordinary course of their business, should not be armed. *And* those businesses should employee firms or individuals who specialize in the handling etc. of cash, and who I agree should be permitted to be armed, to do the different and unquestionably dangerous job of transporting large wads of cash to and from the business.

[gatlingforme]

57. sarcasm off.

[Bowline]

15. Good for her!

[library_max]

22. So here's a case of an armed security guard in Australia

doing her job and protecting the hotel's money. Or at least that's what the story alleges - the facts have not all been established and proved yet.

But anyway, what has that got to do with private citizens being armed in the United States?

[Bowline]

29. It goes to illustrate a point.

This woman was violently assaulted by a man. Knowing what I do about men and women, and from reading about the extent of her injuries, I think we can conclude that the man was physically stronger than the woman.

It is quite possible that the woman is alive today precisely because she was armed, trained, and willing to use the gun and did not, as some here would prefer, simply roll over and take the beating.

[library_max]

31. But she wasn't a civilian.

The fact that she was "armed, trained, and willing to use the gun" was directly related to the fact that she is a security guard.

Now the guy that attacked her, he was a civilian. And clearly he took her by surprise, since he successfully attacked her brass-knuckles vs. gun. And, just as clearly, he was more than willing to hurt or kill her. If he'd had a gun, she'd be dead, and chances are he would have got off scot-free.

So the real moral of this story is that the evil, authoritarian, draconian gun laws of Australia work. The security guard, who was allowed to carry a gun, defeated the criminal, who was not. If this story had taken place in, say, Texas, it'd be criminal one, security guard nothing.

[MrBenchley]

36. In fact, if he'd been here...

There'd be a bunch of people fighting hard so that he could get his hands on an assault weapon....or wander into a gun show and buy a gun without a background check...

[Bowline]

41. Could you, for once, discuss the story and only the story?

No mention was made in the story of assault weapons, gun shows, or background checks. No one advocated arming criminals, giving this guy a gun, or anything else.

If you wish to be taken seriously you really must start sticking to the topic at hand and not wandering off on some random tangent.

[MrBenchley]

46. Screw that.....I'll say what I feel like saying...

And it's ridiculous for someone who asked Max "Do you seek to deny women in this country that right?" to suddenly pretend that this has nothing to do with anything in this country...

"No one advocated arming criminals, giving this guy a gun"
Excuse me? Are you trying to pretend there AREN'T umpty ump posts from the trigger-happy here all over the forum agitating to get assault weapons back on the market?

"If you wish to be taken seriously"
By whom?

[Bowline]

48. Your position is noted.

1) I believe Max has advocated the denial of rights to a segment of the population. This is simply my opinion and almost certainly different from Max's.

2) Assault weapons never left the market. Bayonet lugs, flash suppressors, collapsible stocks, grenade launchers, and hi-capacity magazines only became more expensive, not unavailable. Real assault weapons have been, and continue to be, available. The ban was simply a political facade to give the appearance of progress and almost certainly cost the Democrats control of the Congress in 1994. Gun sales continue to grow, "assault weapons" are all around us, and even your neighbors may be carrying a concealed weapon. You'll probably never know if he is and there is damn little you can do about it if you do find out. That's reality. That's America.

[MrBenchley]

49. Yeah, you know what Max said better than Max does....

"Assault weapons never left the market."
Then it really won't bother anyone if the ban is renewed, will it?

"The ban was simply a political facade to give the appearance of progress and almost certainly cost the Democrats control of the Congress in 1994."
Yeah, who can forget the riniging defense of assault weapons in the Contract on America....oh wait...there wasn't a single fucking word about assault weapons or guns in Newt's rancid little swindle....nor was there a word said in opposition during the campaign. What happened in 1994 was that the gun lobby pumped millions into dishonest attack ads and the like.

[Bowline]

53. Tsk tsk. Such language. Do you kiss your wife with that mouth?

[MrBenchley]

55. Yeah I do...and she says to me, give those fuckwits what they deserve

But then she has very little patience for trigger-happy people....

[library_max]

54. "A segment of the population"?

What segment of the population? How do you justify that accusation? At the very least, you're making a gross assumption about rights. Not everything you want to do is a right.

But what's this "segment of the population" noise?

[Bowline]

40. She most certainly WAS a civilian.

She just happened to be employed in a position that allowed her to be armed in the performance of her job. Armed security guards are not above the law in any civilized country. Also, had she not been licensed to carry a gun she would have been totally defenseless. Is that what you would rather see?

The real moral of the story is that guns, in the hands of trained individuals, can mean the difference between life and death. The woman was armed, trained, and willing so she is alive. Had she not been armed she might have been dead. The criminal didn't need a gun to commit his crime but I think this case illustrates that the woman most certainly needed one to protect her life.

Do you seek to deny women in this country that right?

[MrBenchley]

43. Wow, talk about a strawman....

"Armed security guards are not above the law"
Whew! There's a relief! Funny, I missed the part where Max said they were....

"Do you seek to deny women in this country that right?"
Australia-style gun control would be just dandy here, seems ot me....

[Bowline]

45. Actually, Max DID insinuate that her status gave her special power.

He claimed that the guard was armed only because of some extra right to carry a gun that non-security guard civilians in Australia do not have. He then emphasized that by pointing out that the criminal was a civilian, emphasizing civilian in order to differentiate him from the privileged security guard class.

Your second response would tend to indicate that you DO advocate denying women in this country the right to defend themselves against predators. What an odd position for a progressive liberal to take.

[MrBenchley]

47. I read what Max said same as you....

and I know horseshit when I see it.

"What an odd position for a progressive liberal to take."
There's a big fat laugh...pretty much every progressive liberal and progressive liberal group I've ever heard of supports gun control...which is why we all ended up on the NRA's idiotic enemies list.

[library_max]

50. The law in Australia allows firearms for people like security guards.

It's more strict for private citizens. There are a lot of hoops you have to jump through to prove that you are a solid citizen and not likely to turn criminal. RKBAers in this forum have compared Australia to Nazi Germany for that reason. They do have strict gun control laws. It's not a question of privilege, it's a question of A) need for the gun, and B) reasonable expectation of responsibility with it. Again, if the law there were like the law here in Texas, the security guard would be dead and the criminal would have got off scot-free.

As for melodramatic nonsense about the right of women in this country to defend themselves against male predators, do I understand correctly that you are proposing a law that only women could own and carry firearms? No? Then you're not talking about women's right to self-defense at all, you're talking about the right of the person most willing to shoot the other person dead to do so.

[iverglas]

61. not quite

He claimed that the guard was armed only because of some extra right to carry a gun that non-security guard civilians in Australia do not have.

I assume that what security guards have in Australia is pretty much what they have in Canada -- an exemption from the general prohibition on carrying a firearm, if certain conditions are met: a "licence". No "extra right" at all.

The choice of language was an unfortunate misnomer not initiated by library_max, as I recall; of course security guards are "civilians"; the point is that they are employed in capacities that expose them to danger and require them to protect persons and property, and society regards that as a good reason for them to be permitted to carry arms.

Your second response would tend to indicate that you DO advocate denying women in this country the right to defend themselves against predators. What an odd position for a progressive liberal to take.

Yeah ... it would tend to indicate that ... to the legally blind, maybe.

Or the wilfully, uh, differently-visually-abled.

[iverglas]

60. that's a strange conclusion

It is quite possible that the woman is alive today precisely because she was armed, trained, and willing to use the gun and did not, as some here would prefer, simply roll over and take the beating.

That's actually *exactly* what she did, obviously because she had no other option.

Then, when the beating was over, and the person who had beaten her was no longer a threat to her, she shot him. At least, that's how I read the facts.

The convicted criminal then dragged her across the bitumen towards a stolen getaway car before she could release a bag containing between $30,000 and $50,000 in hotel takings. Moments later, a bleeding Ms Brown, who was dressed in casual clothes and whose gun had been concealed, shot Aquilina as he sat in the car.

... "I looked up through a bloody haze," Ms Brown said. "I did not know where I was or exactly what had happened to me. All I knew was that blood was pouring into my eyes and my head was throbbing."

Now it's hard to tell from that just what went on in her head. On the one hand, it could have been exactly what the dead man's grandfather said it was:

But Aquilina's grandfather, retired policeman Frank Rasmussen, has said Ms Brown should be charged.

"He was murdered," Mr Rasmussen said. "That woman should have torn into that hotel as soon as she alleges she was hit and she should have asked for help. Instead, she advanced on my grandson and shot him in cold blood.

On the other hand, she could very well have been so terrorized and so badly injured that she truly believed that she was still in danger of being further hurt or killed if she didn't act to prevent it. I don't know her, I wasn't there, I'm not the jury.

But her perceptions aside, I don't think there's much basis for saying that she wouldn't be here today if she hadn't shot the man. And pretty obviously, she would not have been harmed as she was if she had simply surrendered the property he wanted. And no, killing someone to prevent the loss of property just is not civilized, and is not legal in civilized places.

Her firearm did not prevent her from being attacked, and it did not prevent the attack from causing the harm it did. And it seems quite clear that if she had *not* had a firearm, both she and the dead man would be alive today.

And I don't give a shit about anybody who doesn't give a shit about that, 'k?

[MrBenchley]

12. Identity Released In Weekend Shooting Death (OH)

"According to police, someone called them and reported that a body was found in an alley off Hedges Street near Burkhardt.
People in the neighborhood said they did not hear or see anything suspicious, but a hidden camera may have. Investigators are now reviewing the tape from the hidden camera."

http://www.whiotv.com/news/3605564/detail.html

[MrBenchley]

17. San Jose man held for allegedly shooting teen (CA)

"SAN JOSE - A 26-year-old man was arrested for allegedly shooting a 16-year-old boy who climbed a fence onto his property Saturday to retrieve his girlfriend's cell phone, police said.
Salvador Lizarraga, 26, was held at the Santa Clara County Jail on suspicion of assault with a deadly weapon, police said.
Lizarraga called police to report he had just fired two shots at someone on his property. He was arrested a short time later.
Police Sgt. Steve Dixon urged people to call police when they spot an intruder."

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/9300448.htm?1c

[MrBenchley]

20. One dead, one wounded in North Las Vegas shooting

"NORTH LAS VEGAS, Nev. North Las Vegas are looking for suspects after a pre-dawn shooting yesterday left one man dead and another wounded.
Police say the shooter was gone when officers arrived a little before five A-M on Thomas Avenue."

http://www.kesq.com/Global/story.asp?S=2119935

[MrBenchley]

21. Two in critical condition after separate shootings (MS)

"Separate shooting incidents in Clarksdale this weekend left two women critically injured.
Takieka R. Jones, 26 of 540 McKinley St., was shot at 4:15 a.m. Saturday while in bed with her children, police said. She remained hospitalized this morning at the Regional Medical Center at Memphis.
Jones is the mother of two boys, neither of whom was injured.
In another incident, Clarksdale resident Denesha Hudson was shot in the chest with a pistol at about 1 a.m. Sunday at Moore's Club off Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard. "

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12580028&BRD=2038&PAG=461&dept_id=230617&rfi=6