Soon, Osama's Guys Can Buy American Again

[MrBenchley]

"I don't know about you, but I am glad that at least someone appreciates the easy availability of guns in America.
I mean, it's too bad that person happens to be Osama Bin Laden. But a fan is a fan, right?
In the Al Qaeda training manual, it says, "In the U.S. it's legal to own certain types of firearms. Attain an assault rifle legally, preferably an AK-47 or variations."
Thanks for the plug, Ossie. Buy American!
Of course, not everyone is thrilled by this prospect. Police chiefs from across the country, for instance, are begging Congress to protect cops by renewing the ban. And Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, Democrat of Long Island, whose husband was killed by a crazed gunman, is saying things like, "If President Bush is still looking for weapons of mass destruction, they won't be hard to find. flooding our streets and schools." "

http://www.csgv.org/news/headlines/nydailynews5_2_04.cf...

[LondonAmerican]

1. If guns are outlawed only the police will have guns...

Not a good situation, given the police' track record on brutality and respect for human rights...

[MrBenchley]

2. If gun nuts were outlawed

there'd be a shortage of tiresome cliches...

[TX-RAT]

3. Referring to the UK or the US?

[LondonAmerican]

4. Guns are pretty much outlawed here (UK)

And violent crime and police brutality is up with no end in sight. I certainly would not trust the poice -- of all people! -- to be any better in the US given their sad record of brutality and violence.

[MrBenchley]

5. Can't wait until Pert sees this...

Last time we debunked it, we discovered that the UK in a typical year has a lot less gun crime than Birmingham, Alabama does.

[Pert_UK]

37. Sorry mate....

I would go in for the jugular, but I have absolutely no idea what he's blathering on about.....



"Poice" doesn't make it any clearer.....

Actually, the police in the UK shot someone dead yesterday. He had gone mad and tried to attack them with a sword so they shot him.

It made headline news across the country, precisely because we have so few incidents when police need to use their weapons.......

Call me crazy, but I'd rather be in that position than having gun deaths so commonplace that it barely merits a news spot.

P.

[MrBenchley]

40. Amazing how often the "UK bloodbath" pops up

on these pages, isn't it?

Wish we could get gun incidents in this country down to UK levels...

[LibLabUK]

19. Hmm.. check the stats before making sweeping statements.

"violent crime has fallen by 35% since its peak in 1995," - homeoffice.gov.uk

"We also have one of the lowest homicide rates among EU member states, and London is below average for EU capital cities." - homeoffice.gov.uk

"in the year ending 31 March 2003, there was:

a 16% reduction in homicides involving firearms
a 13% reduction in robberies involving firearms " - homeoffice.gov.uk

"In the year ending March 2003, the total number of robbery offences recorded by the police was 108,045 – a 14% fall over the previous year." - homeoffice.gov.uk

Trend in violent crime in England & Wales:

Source: The British Crime Survey (BCS) - homeoffice.gov.uk

[Liberal Classic]

6. More grist for the millstone

Lenore Skenazy writes for the New York Daily News, but I couldn't get the whole article without a pay registration. I've read her essays before in other periodicals.

Here are a couple of critiques I have of her essay:

One:

The fact is, Congress voted to outlaw the sale of semiautomatic assault weapons back in 1994.

The '94 AWB did not outlaw the sale of all semi-automatic rifles. This is confusing because it implies a total ban. I wish people could express clearly what the AWB does and does not do. It would save so much energy for other flamewars. Congress voted to prohibit the import of some rifles with some features.

Of course, not everyone is thrilled by this prospect. Police chiefs from across the country, for instance, are begging Congress to protect cops by renewing the ban.

This is a simple appeal to authority, Argumentum ad Verecundiam. It is not true that all police favor re-authorization.

That a recent survey found 71% of Americans, including 64% of gun owners, favor the ban doesn't seem to be swaying these men, because it is not the American public they're listening to.

Argumentum ad Populum, also known as jumping on the bandwagon or arugument to popularity.

So unless you're Osama, it's hard to argue very convincingly that what America really needs is more assault weapons.

Ah, the genetic fallacy. Only Osama would do such and such.

And my favorite quote from the entire essay:

Gun-control types point out that these aren't hunting rifles we're talking about, but weapons made to be held at hip level, spraying bullets helter-skelter.

No, these are not hunting rifles she is talking about, because hunting rifles as a class are more powerful than assault rifles. This sentence belies profound ignorance of the issues on Ms. Skenazy's part. Does Ms. Skenazy have any training or background in military or police enforement? These rifles are designed to be fired from the shoulder.

[MrBenchley]

9. Yeah, it's amazing

Everybody in the country is lying about this issue except the gun nuts here and a few of the scummiest politicans on earth...

"This sentence belies profound ignorance of the issues on Ms. Skenazy's part. Does Ms. Skenazy have any training or background in military or police enforement?"
Gee, I don't know...maybe she's just an ordinary person who doesn't see any reason military style weapons ought to be in the hands of loonies, criminals and terrorists and doesn't give a rat's ass about gun porn.

By the way, it's funny as hell to hear that we ought to ignore the words of experts but on the other hand, ignore Skenazy's argument because she'ds not an expert.

[enfield collector]

7. this is a lie. only if they want to go through the NFA approval

process which takes about 3 months. then they need to pay about $6k for the gun. the big lie here is that the AWB is about assault rifles i.e. full auto which have been banned since 1986. so the current worthless AWB does nothing about them.

[Fescue4u]

12. Not to mention

That if a terrorist wants a full auto in America, it cost $6k to $20k and a full FBI check (as you point out).

If the same terrorist buys one if Afghanistan, Irag or many other countries, it cost about $150 from the local gun shop with NO check.

[MrBenchley]

16. Too TOO funny...

"if a terrorist wants a full auto in America, it cost $6k to $20k "
Golly gee, good thing that Osama guy's not a billionaire or anything.....

"a full FBI check"
Until recently, that didn't include looking out for terrorists...but that's what you get when you get one of these screwloose gun rights humholes like AshKKKroft in a job like attorney general...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/text/2001793271_guns17...

[Fescue4u]

20. More broken record and misinformation

Please name ONE criminal, who has slipped through the cracks and been able to purchase a full auto weapon in America despite the FBI check.

Has NEVER HAPPENED.

[MrBenchley]

27. Gee, fescue

We had a guy with a full auto weapon in Guns in the News just the other day.

[slackmaster]

33. Yes, a full auto weapon smuggled illegally into the country

Mis-used to kill a San Francisco police officer, then mis-used again by anti-gun zealots as a propaganda tool to promote the silly "assault weapon" ban.

[slackmaster]

79. I can't let THAT one slide

"a full FBI check"
Until recently, that didn't include looking out for terrorists...

Bullshit. The background check for buying an NFA weapon is completely different from the National Instant Check System (NICS) used for ordinary firearm purchases.

NICS is limited to a database of known prohibited persons. For someone trying to buy a machinegun, the FBI can use any information it wants.

Please don't make things up, MrBenchley. It only hurts your side.

OTOH please keep writing fiction as you see fit. It is pretty funny.

[OpSomBlood]

127. It is nearly impossible to legally buy a Class III weapon.

...even if you are a law-abiding citizen and can afford it. You must have your local law enforcement provide a written authorization, which almost never happens regardless of how squeaky clean you are.

So if you want to use illegally-smuggled machine guns as your justification for why I can't legally own a semi-auto rifle, be my guest. But it only makes you look ignorant.

[john Q2]

80. The AWB did not stop the sale of any rifles

The ban didnt stop anything it only banned certain features.

You can get brand new AK's here: http://www.globaltrades.com /

Or a new AR www.bushmaster.com

Some people are just too paranoid crying about Assualt weapons flooding the streets of America guess what? they never left.
Well in 131 days it will not mater the evil folding stocks will be back crime will not increase one bit.
J

[MrBenchley]

83. Then there's no reason not to renew it, is there?

But in fact, it DID cut down on the number of assault weapons used in crime, and should be strengthened and renewed, just as 70% of voters want.

[OpSomBlood]

104. How do you "strengthen" the ban?

And by "strengthen" I assume you mean remove the "loopholes" without banning all semi-auto rifles?

Do you really propose verbiage in the law like, "all guns that visually resemble the AR-15?" Isn't that a little too subjective for legal purposes? Should actual contour dimensions be included? Techincal drawings?

How do you "strengthen" the ban? I think the only way to do it is to ban all semi-autos. If that's what you want, just say so.

[MrBenchley]

105. Gee, op, the two bills in Congress are a good start...

I'll stick with them.

[OpSomBlood]

106. The only "strengthening" is the magazine location.

In both S. 1431 and H.R. 2038, the only "strengthening" of the AWB is a ban on all firearms that accept an ammunition magazine in a location other than the handgrip.

I'm curious as to why exactly this specific characteristic is what makes rifles more lethal. Seems like more cosmetics to me.

[MrBenchley]

107. Gee, op....

Next ask me if I give a crap what your "honest" "opinion" of these bills is.

[OpSomBlood]

108. Don't let facts get in your way.

You said that you supported the "strengthening" called for in the two bills currently before Congress. I pointed out that the only "strengthening" in the bills is magazine location.

It's unfortunate that your blind rage on this topic has resulted in a complete inability to interpret facts.



I think I want someone who at least knows how to handle a firearm safely to lecture me about firearms safety. And I don't appreciate when a person who carries a gun when she feels threatened tells me that I don't have the right to carry my own gun.

Nice hypocrite playmate you got there.

[MrBenchley]

109. I stand on facts...and don't let gun nut horseshit get in MY way

"I think I want someone who at least knows how to handle a firearm safely to lecture me about firearms safety. "
Like Tom DeLay? John AshKKKroft? How about this humhole?



I'll take my playmates over yours any fucking day of the week, pal.
The smell is much better over here and there isn't the dreary racism, stupidity and out and out dishonesty that there is in the gun nut camp.

[OpSomBlood]

110. Ad hominems are easier than actual critical analysis.

You take the easy way out. My own opinion has nothing to do with Tom DeLay or anyone else. That's why it's called my opinion. Isn't it amazing how that works?

Tom Delay likes to breathe oxygen. You pathetic scumbag traitor humhole, you breathe oxygen, too! Nice playmate you got there!

You are the one who seems so eager to wrap yourself up in Dianne Feinstein's coattails. She's the one who has demostrated repeated unapologetic hypocrisy on gun issues.

[MrBenchley]

112. And horseshit from the stentorian not even worth thinking about

Ask me next if I care what YOU think about Feinstein.

"Tom Delay likes to breathe oxygen. "
Actually, the scummy piece of shit has stood foursquare for air pollution throughout his despicable career. But don't let facts get in the way, especially while you're in the course of spouting mindless right wing horseshit about respected Democrats.

[OpSomBlood]

113. If you don't care what I think, stop responding to my posts.

Because after all, you don't care what I think.

Similarly, I don't care what you think, either. I only respond to your lie-filled propaganda to prevent you from misinforming others.

[MrBenchley]

116. Gee, and yet I keep posting facts

and you keep posting rubbish from the stentorian...

[slackmaster]

114. The photo of Senator Feinstein tells the truth

It's an unvarnished account of something that actually happened.

[OpSomBlood]

115. Notice how he never actually addressed the "strengthening" of the ban.

Because the actual particulars of the legislation are only details.

Again, how does the location of the magazine make a rifle more lethal? How does it make the rifle fire faster?

Or do you just have no interest in actually discussing the topic?

[MrBenchley]

117. Gee, op...why do you suppose the gun lobby is fighting it so hard?

Funny how the gun lobby keeps publicly putting the lie to these frantic cries of "it's only cosmetic" and "it doesn't do anything".

You'd think that the internal contradictions in this horseshit would make at least one member of the bullets for brains crowd blink.

[OpSomBlood]

118. Maybe they are fighting the bill...

...because common sense dictates that where the magazine is located on a rifle doesn't affect how lethal it is or how fast it fires. Maybe they are fighting it because it is an extension of a worthless law that had no appreciable affect on gun crime in the first place.

Are you listening to your argument? You are saying, "if the ban doesn't make a difference, then why fight it?" I mean, this law is like banning cars with the fuel cap on the right side. I'd fight that law on the basis that it is pointless and would require all car manufacturers to expensively re-design their products...and there is no real reason for it.

You know, I'm all for clamping down on the black market. I believe in background checks, and I'd even be willing to consider legislation that requires private gun sales to go through a broker who has access to the background check system. I do not have a problem with laws that actually make it more difficult for criminals to get guns.

But these cosmetic laws being presented only affect people who wish to acquire these firearms through legal means. If buying a gun legally means subjecting yourself to a background check, then logic dictates that criminals do not generally use this method to get their guns.

[MrBenchley]

119. Or maybe

they know damn well that there's more to that in the bill...

"these cosmetic laws being presented only affect people who wish to acquire these firearms through legal means"
Hell, bank robbery laws affect those who wish to rob banks through legal means...there's no reason to give civilians access to military style weapons.

"If buying a gun legally means subjecting yourself to a background check, then logic dictates that criminals do not generally use this method to get their guns."
Nor do they have to, thanks to the gun show loophole and the scummy gun industry.

[OpSomBlood]

120. What makes a rifle "military style"?

The way it looks. Hence a ban on "military style" rifles is a ban on cosmetic features.

And so you know, there is no "gun show loophole". All sales at gun shows require a background check. If there's a "loophole" it's a "private sale loophole" and I have already expressed that requiring background checks through a broker is not unreasonable.

[MrBenchley]

121. Cry me a fucking river, op...

"there is no "gun show loophole"."
Then get out of the fucking way...because the next President of the US is going to close it and ban assault weapons, and I'm doing all I can to help him do it.

"John Kerry opposes the loophole which allows violent criminals to purchase guns at gun shows. Under the current loophole, unlicensed gun sellers are not required to perform a criminal background check on potential buyers at gun shows--and this allows guns to fall into the hands of felons, stalkers and violent juveniles. Kerry has voted to close the gun show loophole and will continue to work to keep guns out of the hands of those who are not legally allowed to have them. Of closing the loophole, Kerry said, "These are modest and sensible measures that will keep guns out of the hands of children and criminals. Opposition to such reasonable proposals is explained more by politics than by sound policy considerations."
Voted to Ban Military-Style Assault Weapons in the United States – John Kerry strongly supports the current ban on assault weapons and voted to restrict the manufacturing, transfer or possession of these weapons in the United States—including AK-47’s and similar weapons used by terrorists in Afghanistan. Kerry voted for the “Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act” which banned military-style assault weapons. Additionally, the ban on assault weapons was supported by virtually every national law enforcement organization in the United States.

http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/sportsmen/gun_safe...

[slackmaster]

122. Spin, spin, and more spin

Your whole thesis in this thread was shown to be bogus, and you just can't let it go.

I call than an Energizer Bunny Technique(TM).

Then get out of the fucking way...because the next President of the US is going to close it and ban assault weapons, and I'm doing all I can to help him do it.

You're doing a lousy job of it, MrBenchley. Note the conspicuous lack of a crowd rushing in here to defend the chorus that has rushed in here to defend the CSGV's lies that you cling to.

[beevul]

124. How exactly...

does an individual rob a bank "through legal means"?

[MrBenchley]

125. Gee, beev...

If there were no laws against bank robbery, they could, couldn't they?

I'm just following the idiotic "logic" or whatever it was from that post.

[john Q2]

129. Well Sarah Brady agrees

that the ban did nothing except to outlaw cosmetic features.
John

[slackmaster]

111. You've fallen for desperate propaganda

Hook, line, and sinker.

It's sad to see a literate, educated, intelligent person putting himself squarely in the same camp as a pack of obvious liars like the CSGV and the VPC.

[john Q2]

But then again there is no reason to renew it.

N/T

[john Q2]

130. But then again there is no reason to renew it.

N/T

[beevul]

8. Does this author also work for the examiner?

"Attain an assault rifle legally, preferably an AK-47 or variations."


Yeah, I'm sure that the BATFE is xeroxing copies of the paperwork necessary to legally obtain an assault rifle in anticipation of terrorists who wish to legally own one.

The term "assault rifle" is defined as select fire, or fully automatic weapon.

After reading the article, I wonder if the author is the one who has been living in a cave.


In addition, anyone who wishes can read the "related research" links, and see for themselves that this site spews nothing but more "chicken-little" propagandist bullshit.

I would copy and paste it here, but it is in PDF format.

In this case also meaning Patently and Demonstrably False.

http://www.csgv.org/docUploads/Model%20AWB%20law%2Epdf

http://www.csgv.org/docUploads/awb%5Freport%2Epdf

Both worth a chuckle.(but little more)

Edited to add above

[MrBenchley]

10. Gee, most people call those facts

but I realize gun nuts have their own twisted little reality...

[Fescue4u]

11. Rolling my eyes

Yea, Im sure that Osama and his boys will rush to America buy semi-automatics, when fully automatics are available and legal in their own country.

btw, ak-47's have been 100% legal since, well since forever. I bought a brand new one as recently as last year, manufactured legally in 2003. Of course it didnt have a bayo lug (BFD)

Don't you EVER get tired of being misinformed?

Btw, have many crimes have AL Qaeda comitted on US Soil, using firearms of ANY SORT?? Answer - ZERO

[MrBenchley]

13. Gee, fescue...

I never get tired of hearing gun nuts tell us that everybody else in the world is lying....It's so cute.

"Btw, have many crimes have AL Qaeda comitted on US Soil, using firearms of ANY SORT?? Answer - ZERO"
<sarcasm>Well, then hell, let's let the gun industry sell them all the guns they want!!</sarcasm>

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

15. Gee, fescue, I'm not the one ignoring reality...

I'm just ignoring gun nut horseshit.

"the world will conform to your fascist views"
Funny, every hunhole around with a swastika is pushing this idiotic gun rights rubbish....and there's hardly a gun show that isn't awash in Nazi memorabilia and hate literature.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[billbuckhead]

18. It's a fact that the USA has the highest murder rate of advanced nations

Gun nuts have never been able to disprove it. It's hard to talk about civil rights in nation with the highest incarceration rate of advanced nations, black box voting, corporate-fascist censorship of media, the "patriot act", ad nauseum.
But the most fascist misadministration in American history will defend even known terrorists 2nd amendment rights. Does anyone need anymore proof the 2nd amendment is worthlessas a "right", than John AssKKKracks staunch defense of it?

[Fescue4u]

21. You may call Civil rights worthless.

But they are still civil rights despite any facist attempts to curb them.

[MrBenchley]

24. Makes the point eloquently

[slackmaster]

47. What point?

The mythical nexus between assault weapons and murder rates, or the mythical nexus between assault weapons and machineguns?

[MrBenchley]

28. Not me, fescue...

Of course, I'm not the one pimping for bigoted idiots like Ted Nugent and Larry Pratt, either.

[FatSlob]

30. Back to sex references again?

I thought that maybe you'd grown up a bit.

[slackmaster]

36. Straw Man Fallacy

We're not saying everyone else in the world is lying, MrBenchley.

We're saying the CSGV is lying. And if you believe them you are ignorant.

[TexasMexican]

22. Terrorist Rifle Attack vs Terrorist Box Cutter Attack.

The only islamic terrorist rifle attack that I can think of offhand is the one at the CIA. I dont remember offhand how many people died.

That being said there were atleast 3 terrorist box cutter attacks and several thousand people died.

Its not the tools that they use, its what they do with them.

[MrBenchley]

25. Gee, there's gun nut "logic" or whatever the hell it is...

Terrorists killed thousands with box cutters...so let's give them access to even more dangerous weapons...and while we're at it, let's give those same weapons to every loony and criminal who wanders into a gun store...

[OpSomBlood]

31. The point is that terrorists are creative.

And even in your idealistic imaginary utopia world with no guns, people who are determined to inflict massive casualties will figure out a way to do so.

There wasn't a single gun used in the biggest terrorist attack in history. Please spare us the "bin Laden loves guns too" ad hominem rhetoric.

[MrBenchley]

39. No, the point is that there's no reason to have these weapons

on the market. Renew and strengthen the AWB.

[OpSomBlood]

53. People enjoy shooting them safely and legally.

There's a reason.

[MrBenchley]

56. Let em shoot something else

There's no reason to endanger the public just so a handful of neurotics can get their twisted jollies.

[slackmaster]

58. False premise

These weapons pose no more danger to the public than any other firearms.

[OpSomBlood]

64. Safely used firearms don't endager the public.

But you're fortunate that I'm even acknowledging your juvenile ad hominem at all.

[MrBenchley]

70. Yeah, and pinheads with assault weapons are a menace

Which is why a solid majority of voters want the ban strengthened and renewed...they know what sort of malignant turds crave those kinds of weapons.

[OpSomBlood]

81. Follow up a caustic ad hominem attack with a more caustic one.

You're such a fucking champ.

[MrBenchley]

82. Always happy to oblige

those who want to pimp for one of Tom DeLays' legislative priorities: putting assault rifles in the hands of lowlifes and scum.

[minavasht]

84. How’s the gun legislation in the Philippines going, Bench?

Still pushing for the renewal of the ban?
Good job, good job!

[MrBenchley]

85. Columbine Father Challenges Cheney On Assault Weapons

"PITTSBURGH -- A man whose son was killed in the Columbine High School shootings literally walked in his child's shoes to the National Rifle Association convention, where he hoped Vice President Dick Cheney would address the federal assault weapons ban set to expire in September.
Tom Mauser, whose son Daniel was killed with an assault weapon in the Littleton, Colo., killings five years ago Tuesday, said continuing the ban is common sense.
Assault weapons "are the weapons of gangs, drug lords and sick people," Mauser said before his three-block march to the convention, which runs through Sunday. "It is a weapon of war and we don't want this war on our streets."
Mauser entered the convention hall where the NRA was meeting, but was turned away by a security guard as several conventioneers applauded. A couple of conventioneers yelled "Get a life" and "Vote for Bush." "

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/3015989/detail.htm...

[minavasht]

88. Gee, Bench

How many gun-crazy bullet-for-brains loonies went on a shooting spree in police stations?
Why do they ALWAYS choose gun-free places like schools and post offices?
P.S. Still trying to find a link to the latest shootout in a police station?
Keep going…

[MrBenchley]

90. Columbine Father Challenges Cheney On Assault Weapons

"PITTSBURGH -- A man whose son was killed in the Columbine High School shootings literally walked in his child's shoes to the National Rifle Association convention, where he hoped Vice President Dick Cheney would address the federal assault weapons ban set to expire in September.
Tom Mauser, whose son Daniel was killed with an assault weapon in the Littleton, Colo., killings five years ago Tuesday, said continuing the ban is common sense.
Assault weapons "are the weapons of gangs, drug lords and sick people," Mauser said before his three-block march to the convention, which runs through Sunday. "It is a weapon of war and we don't want this war on our streets."
Mauser entered the convention hall where the NRA was meeting, but was turned away by a security guard as several conventioneers applauded. A couple of conventioneers yelled "Get a life" and "Vote for Bush." "
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/3015989/detail.htm...

[OpSomBlood]

91. "Assault weapons" used in less than 3% of gun crimes.

Don't let facts get in your way.

[MrBenchley]

92. Proof the AWB made an impact

From the lead story: "Before the federal ban, assault weapons were used in almost 5% of crimes. After the ban, that number dropped to 1.6%."

Renew and strengthen the ban.

[slackmaster]

96. Irrelevant statistic

What happened to the overall crime rate? Or the overall rate at which firearms are used in crime? Or anything else that might matter?

It should come as no surprise that AWs were used less in crimes after their value increased due to the temporary artificial scarcity caused by the AWB.

[OpSomBlood]

98. That statistic is on "assault weapons" called out by name in the AWB.

The names were changed after 1994. Faulty, dishonest statistic.

[MrBenchley]

102. Cry me a fucking river....

You or her...guess which one I believe, op?

[slackmaster]

103. You are judged in part by the company you keep

Align yourself with someone who is demonstrably ignorant, and you look ignorant as well.

You've made your choice, MrBenchley. A bad choice, but it's YOUR choice and I think most of us respect your right to remain defiantly ignorant.

I'll stick with the side of logic and reason.

[OpSomBlood]

23. The AK-47 isn't an American rifle.

So there goes your "buy American" quip.

Secondly, don't al Qaeda handbooks also discuss how to use the internet and disposable cell phones to communicate? Don't they provide instructions on how to build bombs out of household items? Don't they tell Arab men how to dress and groom themselves to blend into American society?

So these handbooks tell recruits a whole lot more than "guns are legal in America." Do you want to ban everything that might be useful to a terrorist?

Start by getting off your computer.

[MrBenchley]

26. Do you want to pretend Americans don't SELL them, op?

"don't al Qaeda handbooks also discuss how to use the internet and disposable cell phones to communicate?"
Gee, and this by you is an argument to sell them assault weapons?

[OpSomBlood]

29. If they aren't American citizens...

...then there's no legal way for them to buy firearms in the first place. So they'll go to the black market, like every other criminal.

All that bin Laden quote proved was that he's as ignorant of our gun laws as the average American.

[slackmaster]

34. Legal resident aliens can by regular firearms as well

But not machineguns.

All that bin Laden quote proved was that he's as ignorant of our gun laws as the average American.

Or that the CSGV is willing to make up a bogus Bin Laden quote to support their agenda.

[MrBenchley]

35. Gun show loophole

But hey, op, don't let any facts get in the way.

[slackmaster]

38. Machineguns cannot be transferred casually at gun shows

Or anywhere else.

Read and learn: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/index.htm

[slackmaster]

32. Contemptible garbage propaganda with no merit whatsoever

In the Al Qaeda training manual, it says, "In the U.S. it's legal to own certain types of firearms. Attain an assault rifle legally, preferably an AK-47 or variations."

I haven't seen the AQ training manual, and I'm not about to take the word of these CSGV clowns that it says any such thing. How many times does this need to be debunked? Why do they repeat the same lies over and over and over?

AK-47 rifles are legally classified as machineguns in the US. They're strictly regulated under the National Firearms Act of 1934. They're not covered by the "assault weapons ban" and will not become easier to obtain when the ban expires in September.

The "ban" did not stop sale of semiautomatic variants of the AK. Those were available before the ban, and versions with a few cosmetic features removed, which do not in any way affect the function of the rifle, have been available continuously during the "ban". Expiration of the ban will not suddenly make more dangerous firearms available.

Gun-control types point out that these aren't hunting rifles we're talking about, but weapons made to be held at hip level, spraying bullets helter-skelter....

Utter nonsense. All rifles are by definition designed to be fired from the shoulder. Shooting willy-nilly from the hip is a good way to waste ammunition and a bad way to hit a target. Any rifle can be fired from the hip, but it's not done by people who are trying to hit things.

That a recent survey found 71% of Americans, including 64% of gun owners, favor the ban doesn't seem to be swaying these men, because it is not the American public they're listening to.

I'd LOVE to see a survey that includes questions designed to determine whether or not respondents comprehend what the AWB actually addresses. In the parlance of experimental design and analysis that's known as a validity test, and without one nobody can say with certainty that the result isn't garbage.

This is classic Big Lie propaganda. A person who doesn't know the difference between a semiautomatic assault weapon and a machinegun and takes this piece as fact will be duped into believing that expiration of the AWB will result in real military automatic weapons being available to anyone who comes to the USA legally or otherwise. That's just not true.

Edited for spellling.

[minavasht]

41. So that’s why they ended using box cutters!

Now the BAW is protecting us and there is simply no way for the nasty terrorists to get “assault rifles”. But man, imagine the blood on the streets once it goes away! Every single terrorist will be able to apply for a class III license! In a few months he can get it!!!!
An assault rifle has a rate of fire more than 900 rounds per minute - just in 2-3 minutes THOUSANDS of innocent victims can be killed by a single gunman!



I wish all the terrorists were as simple as some people on this forum. Then on 9.11 twenty arab-looking males with “assault rifles” would have been arrested at the airport with their 20 assault rifles.
Guns are only tools and obviously not the deadliest ones.

[MrBenchley]

43. Why not let the gun industry cash in, eh, Mina?

After all, there's nothing to worry about...I'm sure terrorists, loonies and criminals would only use those assault wepaons for target practice and home defense....

"July 25 — A training camp linked to Islamic militants has been operating in Alabama, and European law enforcement officials believe Muslim extremists were using it to prepare for a holy war.
An investigation by Britain's Scotland Yard led to the discovery of the camp in Marion, Ala. The facility is called "Ground Zero USA."
Bullet-riddled police cars and a school bus with mannequin targets are scattered around the property. Inside a huge shed is an equally macabre scene — shot-up mannequins, male and female, in domestic settings, some with red, blood-like stains on them.
Ground Zero's operators promised state-of-the-art, world-class training in automatic weapons, urban warfare, SWAT tactics and martial arts, supposedly to fight terror attacks.
The most radical and belligerent of London's Islamic clerics, Abu Hamza, told ABCNEWS in a phone call that America's laws make such paramilitary training easy, "like a picnic." "

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/WNT_alabam...

"Guns are only tools"
So are gun nuts...and clearly they're not the sharpest ones in the old shed....

[slackmaster]

45. There you go again with the automatic weapons charade

Shame on you, MrBenchley.

Assault weapons are not machineguns.

[minavasht]

59. Braking news!!!!!! Terrorists training camps all over USA!!!! On CNN now!!

Yesterday I single-handedly discovered the biggest terrorist-training network in the world!!!! Authorities are advised and actions are taken as you are reading this!!!!

Yesterday I witnessed with my own yes dozens of individuals training in plain site the use of deadly assault weapons for!!!
At 10:30 pm at the local Walmart dozens of individuals pretending to be employee were brandishing BOX CUTTERS!!!!! Pretending they were stocking the isles they were training in unlawful use of these assault weapons!!!! Obviously there is a whole network of similar training camps all over the country!!!! Imagine how deadlier those individuals are when they graduate these terrorist nests!!!
Everybody knows how these assault weapons make it easier to kill – you can use them from the hip, you can cut with them and their most dangerous feature is their lack of flash!!! They are soooo dangerous!!!! Nobody can detect them, they go trough metal detectors!!!!
Thankfully arrests are being made in this very moment and our safety is again secured!!!!

[OpSomBlood]

63. They are capable of spray-cutting, too!

Goddamn razor hoses.

[MrBenchley]

71. Yeah, there's that gun nut "logic" or whatever the hell it is...

No wonder the only politicans parroting this stuff are the scum of the earth....like the Second Amendment Caucus.

[minavasht]

77. I’m with you on this one, Bench!

Ban the assault weapons, period! All of them – assault bats, assault knives, assault stones, assault oranges and apples, assault box cutters!
Also ban assault airplanes, assault roller-blades, assault chairs and the like!
Go ahead, Bench, strengthen the AWB, we need a little safety here.

[OpSomBlood]

99. No joke...they are using the term "assault pistol" now.

Seriously. They just slap an "assault" in front of whatever they want to ban. I'd bet my left nut that if the AWB gets "renewed and strengthened" they'll go after pistols with the logic that, "these automatic assault pistols fire as the same rate as assault rifles that were banned in 2004."

It's a winning strategy so far...just feed off of the general public's ignorance on the issue by changing the accepted nomenclature. It worked for "assault weapons," why stop there?

[slackmaster]

42. One more conspicuous lie in the CSGV piece

And once again, terrorists and, uh, anyone else who likes weapons with 30-round clips attached will be free to come and get 'em.

Wrong on two levels.

- The 10-round magazine capacity limit is not part of the "assault weapons" ban. It won't go away when the AWB dies.

- Existing standard-capacity magazines are grandfathered and (in most states) can be bought and sold without restrictions. The AWB has no impact on them one way or another.

The CSGV knows better. They're LYING.

[TX-RAT]

44. Gotta question Slack

Doesn't the AWB only effect factory mags. You can still by hi caps from USA and Megar.

[slackmaster]

46. Nope

USA and Mecgar make magazines in factories too.

The high-cap magazine ban applies to everyone.

[TX-RAT]

60. Are you saying

Newly manufactured hi-cap mags cannot be purchased in the us.

[OpSomBlood]

62. Yes, that is what he is saying.

11+ capacity magazines produced after 1994 are illegal.

(Edit: Illegal except for Law Enforcement use, of course)

[TX-RAT]

65. Brand new mags for sale

Check this out-- gunsupplydepot.com395.htm
They have a wide variety new after market mags for sale from Western Mag, a US company.

[FeebMaster]

66. They're legal if they were manufactured before the ban. (nt)

[TX-RAT]

72. Amazing

How there is an unlimited supply of aftermarket hi-cap mags available to the general public. Were all these mags manufactured before 94? Not many company's that i know of keep a 10yr plus inventory of there products on hand.

[slackmaster]

73. Inaccurate analysis of the situation

The supply is not unlimited. It's very large because there are a lot of USED surplus military magazines on the market.

[TX-RAT]

74. The mags i just looked at a Western Corp were new not surplus.

They are advertised as new manufactured. Western, USA, Mec-gar, all advertise their aftermarket mags as new.

[slackmaster]

75. Yes, manufactured before September 1994

The magazine manufacturers knew the ban was coming. They wanted to stay in business and not have to re-tool to make something else, so they ramped up production massively.

There's nothing terribly difficult about making box magazines. Just sheet metal, spring steel, and sometimes plastic for the followers. The materials that go into them are dirt cheap.

Speaking of dirt cheap, http://www.cheaperthandirt.com always has a good supply of magazines of all sizes.

[slackmaster]

67. Affirmative

Newly manufactured high-caps have to be marked to indicate that they are for law enforcement or government use only, and can be sold only to law enforcement agencies or a government.

[OpSomBlood]

48. Count the lies at csgv.org.

1.


The current ban will expire September 13, 2004 unless President Bush and Congress act. Tell President Bush that semi-automatic assault weapons like Uzis and AK-47s don't belong on our streets. Tell him to stand up for public safety, not the gun lobby.

Uzis and AK-47's are not semi-automatic. They are fully automatic and regulated by the NFA.

2. On April 20, 1999, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold used semi-automatic assault weapons to kill 12 of their fellow students and one teacher at Columbine High School in Littleton, CO. Five years after the massacre, gun violence prevention advocates are asking what has been done to prevent another Columbine-style shooting, and wondering when President Bush will fulfill his promise to support a strong, effective ban on military-style assault weapons.

Columbine happened in 1999. The AWB was passed in 1994. Exactly how will renewing the AWB work to prevent the "next Columbine" if it couldn't prevent the first one?

3. Some Crimes Committed with Assault Weapons

1993 Langley, VA: 5 CIA employees shot with an AK-47

An illegally-acquired fully automatic weapon was used. AWB not applicable.

1997 North Hollywood, CA: Police officers shot by bank robbers armed with AK-47 assault rifles

Illegally-acquired fully automatic weapons were used. AWB not applicable.

1998 Littleton, CO: 13 high school students murdered by two schoolmates armed with TEC-9 assault pistol and Hi-point Carbine assault rifle

These weapons were completely legal under the AWB, but illegally acqured through straw purchases.

2002 Washington, DC area: 13 people shot, 10 killed over two weeks by sniper allegedly armed with Bushmaster XM15 assault rifle, a copy of the banned Colt AR-15

This weapon was completely legal under the AWB. It was not a "copy of a banned weapon"...it was in complete compliance with the law.

4. An "assault weapon" is a firearm with certain features that make it easier to shoot lots of bullets across a wide area in a short time. Most assault weapons are semi-automatic versions of fully-automatic machine guns designed specifically for the military.

Nice back-to-back contradiction. An "assault weapon" is designed to make it easier to shoot lots of bullets, yet they are semi-automatic. That means they only shoot as fast as your finger can pull the trigger. There are no features on a semi-automatic weapon that make it fire faster than one shot per trigger pull.

5. Some assault weapon features, like pistol grips, second handgrips, or barrel shrouds, make the gun easier to hold with two hands. This allows the shooter to spray an area with bullets without taking careful aim, and to control the gun without getting burned as the barrel heats up. Others, like detachable magazines, make it easier to maintain a high rate of fire for an extended period of time. Still others, like flash suppressors, allow the shooter to conceal his position. These features, most of which were specifically designed for the military, are unnecessary for hunting or target shooting.

So in other words, features that make guns safer to shoot are also what make them more lethal? Is the punitive solution to make it easier to be burned or blinded when shooting a rifle? Also note the use of the buzzword "spray" in this passage, reinforcing the AWB-machine gun connection.

6. The 1994 law includes several loopholes that unscrupulous gun makers and dealers have exploited to continue making and selling assault weapons that Congress intended to ban. As a result, many assault weapons remain available.

The ban is on features and model names. The manufacturers removed the features and changed the model names, and were therefore in full compliance of the law as it was written.

Shall I continue? Nice playmates you've got there.

[slackmaster]

49. Excellent summary!

Bravo!



Shall I continue?

Naw. Anyone with an ounce of sense gets the point already.

[MrBenchley]

50. Nary a one...

Now count the lies at the stentorian...

[OpSomBlood]

51. I only referred to the truth there:

I don't exactly recall when I referenced the text of any of the articles at Stentorian...could you provide a link to help refresh my memory?

Nice deflection attempt, though.

[MrBenchley]

55. Nope...

You tried to pretend that a prop gun was a real one to smear a respected Democrat, so that you could advance one of Tom DeLay's legislative priorities.

[OpSomBlood]

61. Safety rules apply to "prop guns" too...even though it wasn't a prop.

It was a real AK-47 confiscated in a raid. But don't let facts get in your way.

[MrBenchley]

68. Tell it to the stentorian

[slackmaster]

76. Hang it up, MrBenchley

You've had your ass handed to you on a platter repeatedly in this thread.

On second thought, please keep going. This one has high entertainment value.

[slackmaster]

52. Everyone take careful notice

MrBenchley has made no effort whatsoever to contradict any of our observations about the CSGV's lies. He resorts to his standard guilt by association tactic.

The only connection between OpSomBlood and Stentorian is that Op once posted a link to a photo on the Stentorian Web site.

Shall we all rip MrBenchley a "new one" for believing that the New York Post is a real newspaper?

[MrBenchley]

54. Yes, count the lies at the stentorian...

"Uzis and AK-47's are not semi-automatic."
From gun merchant SecurityArms.com...

"Maadi AK-47 (Egyption)
Its caliber is 7.62x39mm, and it is semi automatic. "

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/1600/...

From gun merchant "Magnificent World"

"UZI SPECIFICATION
Models
UZI SMG
Mini UZI SMG
Micro UZI SMG
UZI Pistol
Ammunition
9mm Parabellum
Operation
Blowback firing from open bolt position (OBP)
Blowback firing from closed bolt position (CBP or OBP)
Blowback firing from CBP
Mode of firing
Semi-automatic, Automatic
Semi-automatic "

http://www.info.com.ph/~mwgs/specs_3.htm

I'll take my playmates ovber the scum the gun nuts associate with any day....

[slackmaster]

57. The careful reader will note that MrBenchley proves himself wrong

I can tell the difference between something called an "AK-47" and a different thing called a "Maadi AK-47".

And note that of the four Uzi models listed THREE OF THEM ARE SELECTIVE-FIRE (i.e. legally "machineguns" NOT ASSAULT WEAPONS just like everyone with a clue has been saying all along).

The fourth model, the Uzi Pistol, is an assault weapon under federal law. HOWEVER, expiration of the AWB will not make them available because they're covered by the 1989 "legitimate sporting use" import ban ordered by Bush I.

http://www.info.com.ph/~mwgs/specs_3.htm

Nice try, MrBenchley. I'm ROTFLMAO over that one.



(Edited to include link in case someone tries to cover his error.)

[slackmaster]

69. I've been to the veterinarian and back

And all I hear in this thread is the sound of crickets chirping.

The regularity with which anti-gun zealots paint themselves into corners on technical issues rivals our best atomic clocks.

BTW - The Maadi AKs are post-bans. They've been available all along. Expiration of the AWB won't make a whit of difference in that regard.

BTW2 - Did anyone else notice where Magnificent World Guns and Sports Inc. is located? http://www.info.com.ph/~mwgs/about_us.htm

[minavasht]

78. Evidently HE is discussing the AWB in Philippines…

[MrSandman]

97. IIRC, These are illegal also...

"Blowback firing from open bolt position (OBP)"

Such as the UZI or Thompson. Correct me if wrong.

Also, single shot machine guns are illegal. (Yes, the ATF identified a weapon firing from an open bolt with absolutely no way to feed from a mag, belt, etc. as a machine gun.)

[slackmaster]

100. Another interesting thing about that Uzi specifications table

At http://www.info.com.ph/~mwgs/specs_3.htm ...

It gives rates of fire for the selective-fire models but not for the Uzi Pistol, which is semiautomatic only.

That's because all semiautomatic firearms don't have a rate of fire, or to borrow a traditional automotive metaphor the rate of fire is controlled by "the nut on the trigger".



So much for the propagandists' claims that expiration of the AWB will result in "rapid-fire" weapons flooding our streets.

[MrSandman]

123. Am I wrong about the open bolt?

[slackmaster]

126. No new semiauto firearms can be made with open-bolt actions

I believe there is one semiautomatic shotgun, an oldie on the federal C&R list, that fires from an open bolt. But you can't make a new open-bolt semiauto firearm. That's how I understand it.

I know a firearms restorer, who happens to be a cop, who builds semiautos from MG-34 parts kits. According to HIS interpretation of the regs, that's legal because the weapon was originally an open-bolt design. I've declined his kind invitation to join him in a future restoration project because I don't have a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card like he does.

As far as machinegun designs are concerned, I believe anything goes.

[FeebMaster]

128. The only way to build a semi-auto mg-34

or a STEN or any other semi-auto version of a machine gun legally is to modify it to fire from a closed bolt. I'm pretty sure you have to modify them so that full-auto parts won't work with it. I don't know all the details buy my understanding is that ATF considers anything that fires from an open bolt a machine gun, whether it's full-auto or not.

[slackmaster]

131. That agrees with my interpretation of the regulations

That's why I want nothing to do with that nice cop's pet projects.

If an open-bolt semi-auto MG-34 turns out to be illegal, he might be able to get away with it. I would not.

The Browning M1919-A4 makes a fine starting point for a semiauto conversion. It fires from a closed bolt already. The conversion involves making some modifications to the firing mechanism, a special right side plate so the weapon cannot accept standard internals, and welding the receiver together so that it can't be readily converted back to full auto.

See http://www.1919A4.com - both legal full-auto and semiautos are discussed.

[OpSomBlood]

86. More CSGV lies...

7. The Second Amendment was adopted to ensure the right of states to maintain their own militia to protect themselves against foreign and federal encroachment. It does not guarantee the individual a right to own firearms for self-defense. The National Guard, created in 1903, is the contemporary equivalent of the organized state militia. The citizens in the National Guard are provided with arms when called to duty and are not required to privately own firearms
for service.

These guys are doing my job for me. They claim that the National Guard (which was created 122 years after the Bill of Rights) is the militia that defends the states from federal tyranny.

Who buys the weapons for the National Guard? The federal government. Who has discretion to dispatch the National Guard to foreign conflicts? The federal government.

Hmm, it seems to me that the National Guard is really a part of the standing army, not a militia formed of "all able-bodied men."

8. As the Bill of Rights was being drafted, the founders deliberately wrote the Second Amendment so that it binds firearm possession to the military needs of the state. Therefore, the gun lobby distorts the words of the founding fathers when it ignores the importance of state militia in the Second Amendment.

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms" - Samuel Adams

"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined." - George Washington

"The great object is that every man be armed...Everyone who is able may have a gun." - Patrick Henry

"Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped." - Alexander Hamilton

"One loves to possess arms, tho they hope never to have occasion for them." - Thomas Jefferson

"Arms in the hands of citizens be used at individual discretion… in private self-defense." - John Adams

9. Annually, about 30,000 people die of firearm injuries. In 2000, guns claimed 28,663 lives in the United States, the majority from suicides. Firearm deaths, 2000, by cause:
Suicide — 16,586
Homicide — 10,801
Unintentional Shootings — 1,276

Not a lie, but these are big, scary numbers. But again, these guys do my work for me with this:

There are roughly 200 million firearms in America, 65 million of them handguns—more than one for each adult.

So let me get this straight...in any given year (assuming one gun is involved in each death), about 0.015% of the guns in America are used to kill another person. Is my math wrong here?

10. Research also shows that the use of a firearm to resist a violent assault actually increases the victim’s risk of injury and death.

Ah, the pacifist "don't fight back, it'll only piss him off" mentality. Run that by a rape victim and see how far it flies.

11. The primary function of handguns is to kill human beings. Some public officials and activists advocate for a ban on handguns because the danger of handgun ownership greatly outweighs any benefit. They are used in more suicides and homicides than any other firearm. Unlike rifles or shotguns, they serve no practical sporting purpose. Moreover, the handgun can be concealed easily, making it the weapon of choice for criminals.

The primary function of a handgun is to strike a primer to propel a projectile. To grant a piece of plastic and metal sentient powers is to insult intelligence. It takes a human being to command a handgun to kill human beings. Semi-auto pistols have been completely legal in the U.S. for almost 100 years! Why are we outraged now?

They are used in more suicides...hmm, I guess banning them will instantaneously make people not want to kill themselves anymore. I guess extremely popular tactical shooting competitions don't qualify as "practical sporting." And never consider the fact that the small size of handguns makes them ideal for home defense.

[MrBenchley]

87. The CSGV is 100% correct

"The Second Amendment was adopted to ensure the right of states to maintain their own militia to protect themselves against foreign and federal encroachment. It does not guarantee the individual a right to own firearms for self-defense."

The CSGV is 100% correct. And the courts have upheld that AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"the founders deliberately wrote the Second Amendment so that it binds firearm possession to the military needs of the state"
And again, the CSGV is 100% correct. The only place individual gun ownership came up was during the ratification debate in Massachusetts...and the proposal to include it was VOTED DOWN. And in the Federalist papers the discussion of the Second is always in terms of the state militia.

"To grant a piece of plastic and metal sentient powers is to insult intelligence."
Wish the gun nuts here had sentient powers and not just a stale and dreary collection of horseshit and propaganda.

[OpSomBlood]

89. Ignore the quotes from the Founders on individual gun ownership.

Wait, you've already done that.

[MrBenchley]

93. Gee, op. don't let facts get in your way...

like what the Founding Fathers actually put into law, or how the courts have ruled.

Besides, so many of those "quotes" turn out to be just right wing loony invention. We had a thread started by the bullets for brains bunch some time back based on a 100% phony quote from Thomas Jefferson.

[OpSomBlood]

94. You argue the intent of the Founders...

Then ignore quotes from the Founders themselves that counter your claims.

Some debater you are.

[MrBenchley]

95. No, op, I point out what the courts say

As well as what the ACLU and the Federalist Papers say...

But don't let any facts get in your way.

[slackmaster]

101. And you started this thread based on 100% phony data from CSGV

Pot, meet kettle.