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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:40 PM
Original message
Question(s) on CCW permit training requirements
Edited on Thu May-06-04 03:51 PM by lunabush
For the Gungeonites who don't know, I'm a test and measurements kinda guy. I live in the world of standards. I have used and created tests that are quite sensitive in the measurement of human behavior. I have trained and created training materials for those instruments so that we can increase the likelihood that everyone who administers the final test product is indeed administering the same test as another test administrator.

As a byproduct, I like to see stuff in nice, tight packages. In other words, I like standardization. I like to see that standardization used in any sort of measurement of human behavior. My google to find training requirements for CCW permit holders didn't reveal a standard set of requirements.

Can you advocates of CCW direct me to sites you are familiar with that describe the training you required to receive a CCW permit? Is there a national standard? I pretty confident there isn't one, but I like surprises. Does the NRA have a recommendation? Does your state post their requirements?

edit - fixed a tense or two, left all the other mistakes :P
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. Standardization is a big problem.
I took a CCW class when I was 18, and again when I turned 21 (Florida requires you to be 21 to get the license), and I was pretty astonished at how different the two classes were. There don't seem to be very stringent standards across the board...the instructors seem to be able to cover whatever they want.

And the range requirement is pretty much a joke, too. They just check to see that you can hit a target.

I'm a weights and standards kinda guy, too.
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I'm hoping it isn't like driver re-education school
those ticket-fix classes? I've been to two of them, and each were as different as the pigs on uncle Dave's farm. I'm not trying to make a comparison between driving a car and shooting a gun - I've been around here long enough not to try that one! :eyes:

Do all states have a range requirement?
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Florida didn't even have a range requirement until recently.
And yes...unfortunately, it was eerily similar to a ticket clinic class.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. Great question lunabush - Here is an outline of the California course
Courtesy of the American Shooting Center in San Diego - See http://www.gotammo.com / (I particularly like their line of "Got Ammo?" products)...


Concealed Carry Weapons Certification
(4 or 8 hours)

This course is required by the state of California for those who have applied for or wish to renew a Concealed Carry Weapons permit. This course is restricted to those students who are currently applying for or renewing a CCW in San Diego County.

For new license applicants (8 hours):

Equipment required:

- The firearm or firearms that you wish to be placed on your CCW
- Factory ammunition for your firearm(s) - 100 rounds per firearm
- Eye and ear protection (available at no charge)

Topics covered:

- Basic firearms safety
- Local and state laws regarding the permissible use of a firearm for self defense
- Review of shooting fundamentals
- Review of shooting requirements for permit qualification
- Live fire exercises

For renewal license applicants (four hours):

Equipment required:

- The firearm or firearms that you wish to be placed on your CCW
- Factory ammunition for your firearm(s) - 50 rounds per firearm
- Eye and ear protection (available at no charge)

Topics covered:

- Firearms safety
- Local and state laws regarding the permissible use of a firearm for self defense
- Range instruction and live fire


I've spoken with the instructors at ASC and a few friends who have taken the course. Though not on the syllabus, a theme taught throughout the course is AVOIDANCE of problems.

Getting a concealed-weapons permit does not give you any special dispensation on the laws concerning use of deadly force. If you go looking for trouble you will probably find it, including legal trouble for yourself. Instructors stress vehemently that use of your licensed, concealed firearm is the ABSOLUTE LAST THING YOU WANT TO DO if you face a potential problem situation. Strategies for avoiding trouble include being aware of your surroundings at all times, staying out of known dangerous areas, poorly lit places, unfamiliar neighborhoods especially at night; talking your way out of problems; and running away.
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Good stuff
where is the gotammo page?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. Click on Firearms Training
Edited on Fri May-07-04 11:15 AM by slackmaster
The site uses frames with no visible border. :eyes:

If you're asking about sales of "Got Ammo?" swag, that's sold only in the store itself.
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
5. Michigan...
http://michigan.gov/msp/1,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-109...

Firearms Program Minimum Standards

The program must include instruction in, but not limited to, all of the following:

Safe storage, use and handling of a pistol including, but not limited to, safe storage, use and handling to protect a child
Ammunition knowledge, and the fundamentals of pistol shooting
Pistol shooting positions
Firearms and the law, including civil liability issues and the use of deadly force
Avoiding criminal attack and controlling a violent confrontation
All laws that apply to carrying a concealed pistol in this state
At least 8 hours instruction, including 3 hours of firing range time; which requires firing at least 30 rounds of ammunition

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Michigan's shall issue law replaced a may issue law that had none of the above requirements. Formerly the privleged few could go anywhere, with any amount of alcohol in their bloodstream. They could even have some of many nasty misdemeanors on their record. The only thing that would have barred someone from the old system would have been a felony conviction. Today's level playing field got rid of all that.
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JayS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. Texas. Very long and detailed.
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JayS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. Perry approves gun reciprocity with NC
http://www.news8austin.com/content/top_stories/default....
Perry approves gun reciprocity with NC
5/6/2004 9:06 PM
By: News 8 Austin Staff




If you have a concealed handgun license in Texas, you can now legally carry your gun in North Carolina.

Gov. Rick Perry signed a reciprocity agreement allowing Texans to travel freely with their guns in North Carolina while enjoying similar privileges their licenses give them at home.

Texas has similar agreements with nine other states, but the laws vary.

*SNIP*
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Dolomite Donating Member (689 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. Old Boston Phoenix Article on CCW training:
http://www.bostonphoenix.com/archives/1999/documents/00...

This course, LFI 1, which is conducted in many states usually satisfies (and where accepted, vastly exceeds) the training requirements needed to complete an application for a CCW.

Taken it twice myself.
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
8. Good stuff guys, keep 'em coming
I think I might take all this info and look for commonality, see if there isn't some sort of subset of requirements - I appreciate any help from the folks who are willing to post the ones they can find.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
10. Texas
40 rounds fired at 5, 7, 15yards.
2 day course in concealed carry laws, sometimes condensed into 1 day
Federal background check.
Check for warrants
check for back tax's
check for back child support.
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. ????
check for back tax's
check for back child support.


What's up with that?
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. One more way to collect on deadbeat Dads
Texas does that with any sort of licensing. I think its a good idea, actually. A surprising amount of men don't feel any obligation take care of what they bring into the world. This forces them to do so.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Those items often get examined on pre-employment background checks
Along with driving records and general credit checks. Good way to find out if someone has financial problems, which all too often motivate people to turn to crime.
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. I don't want to sound like a Republican on this one
but fuck em. At some point folks do have to be responsible. We can't pad all the sharp corners for everyone - sometimes folks have to be responsible for themselves - no one forces you into a life of crime.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
12. Check out this...
www.packing.org

State by state analysis of CCW and other laws...BTW in WV a one time NRA equivalent safety course or an Honorable Discharge(DD-214)
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Thanks! That is exactly what I need
I find it frightening that I could get a CCW permit in WV just because I can produce a DD214.

:thumbsup: for the link!
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leanings Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. military service signifies weapons training.
That's all you need in VA. I just gave them a photocopy of my military 9mm pistol qualification card. A buddy of mine, it pains me to say, just had to watch a two hour video.

CCW training standards do need tightening in some states, including mine.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Shucks...
If you are legal to own a gun, you can open carry, no permits, checks, certs, residency. From an earlier post, it is mostly like OH without the 2 hour law lecture.
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. yep, but that 214 is 15 years old
and I didn't do much with sidearms. I'd rather that I would have to qualify or at least sit through some safety stuff.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I know...
Edited on Fri May-07-04 08:59 PM by MrSandman
I didn't know about that till a bud was applying. As far as the 10 hour course, any safety course, IMO, once you have it, you have it.

The real difference is the differing laws for justification of lethal force. Even in your home, in WV, one has a "duty to retreat" instead of the castle doctrine. A local deputy and trooper were kind enough to detail the limits of this duty after an attempted home invasion.

on ed...there is a range requirement, albeit minimal.
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Florida "Castle Doctrine"
Here, if someone is in your house, it is considered reasonable to assume they are there to harm you. Really the only legal hurdle to shooting them is if there is evidence that they were trying to escape (like exit wounds in the chest).
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Several states...
I just don't know them...

Also popularly known as "Make my day laws"

That really make my day...NOT
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MTG250 Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
15. AZ's here
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mosin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
16. Ohio
I can speak to Ohio. The new CHL law requires a 12 hour course covering a list of topics, with at least 2 hours spent shooting on a range. The required training is essentially the 10-hour NRA Basic Pistol course with 2 extra hours to cover the specifics of Ohio law. Any NRA certified or OPOTA (Ohio Peace Officer Training Academy) certified instructors can teach the class. There is no specific syllabus to follow.
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Thanks - appreciate the input - and the Spurs logo
Least Ohio has some sort of standard.
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mosin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Spurs
You're welcome. :) I think Ohio has the second strictest training requirement in the country, after Arizona's 16 hours.

My family relocated from Texas when I was a kid. We're still Cowboys fans, Astros fans, and Spurs fans. We pull for the Reds and Bengals when there's no conflict.

Of course, today wasn't pretty :(, but it's only one game.
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solinvictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
28. Tennessee
You have to complete a safety and familiarity test administered by a licensed individual or facility before being issued a CCW permit. It costs about $50-75 and takes a couple of class sessions.
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